Why The Berserker Changes Are Overdoing It

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

26 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Yes, because the build doing 40k is surely not an outlier in the landscape of the builds in a range of 32-36k.

Oh it's 40k now? Alright, I'll roll with it.

40k theoretically, on a perfect or near perfect execution on a boss with no mechanics or movement (because there's no ticks, you stop blasting you run the risk of zerker turning off and your damage cratering.)

I consider that reasonable, do you not? Maybe more than 1-2% of players will play it now?

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Surely I am just a bully hiding behind the very subjective discipline of...*checks notes*...math. Surely. I mean, there could be no other explanation.

If the shoe fits~  If you were concerned about damage around the levels you theorize power berserker will hit with this, there's a whole field of classes that are easier that do comparable levels of damage, and not a single one of their threads has anyone panicking. It's just really weird to me that it's the  one with the low playrate that needs the seat belt. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Not  a single other profession thread has people going out of their way to preemptively advocate for rolling back balance adjustments. Explain

My argument isn't to roll back warrior changes. 

My argument is numbers shouldn't of been this high to begin with. The bar of balance Is set to a level of "utterly broken" so yeah warriors need going uptoo it. 

My argument aint to nerf warrior. Its to make a statement on everything that's happened. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

19 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

My argument isn't to roll back warrior changes. 

My argument is numbers shouldn't of been this high to begin with. The bar of balance Is set to a level of "utterly broken" so yeah warriors need going uptoo it. 

My argument aint to nerf warrior. Its to make a statement on everything that's happened. 

I know. That wasn't directed at you, it was more poised as a rhetorical, not a request for explanation. I may be rude but I ain't that rude.

Please excuse my grumbling, I should have been more specific~

Edited November 1, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261
[intrusive thoughts go here]

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

40k theoretically, on a perfect or near perfect execution on a boss with no mechanics or movement (because there's no ticks, you stop blasting you run the risk of zerker turning off and your damage cratering.)

What do you think the other benchmark numbers are based on???? It's the same thing, so this build is 4k+ dps MORE than those builds also grinded in perfect conditions. And it's not even the hardest of those builds listed to execute in stickier encounters.

Understanding how numbers work is making me a villain, apparently. I'm commenting on this thread because I understand why the changes are bad for this build in particular. While I have decent general knowledge of all classes at this point, this change stuck out because I am a warrior main and because it was particularly overcooked.

(And again, there is ZERO CHANCE you fall out of berserk mode with Smash Brawler traited. If you manage to do it after this patch, it's because you're not even doing 30% of the dmg you should be doing, because it means you aren't hitting the boss almost at all. And those players shouldn't be caring about what's meta, they should be identifying why exactly it is they aren't making contact with the boss even remotely often enough to matter.)

[luzonophir.7134]

you go benchmark any berserker builds vs the overgrown grub on wvwvw.

and the warrior/berserker skills and traits got wrecked coz someone soloed the overgrown grub in wvwvw on full berzerker gear on a berserker build.,..

[KryTiKaL.3125]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

What do you think the other benchmark numbers are based on???? It's the same thing, so this build is 4k+ dps MORE than those builds also grinded in perfect conditions. And it's not even the hardest of those builds listed to execute in stickier encounters.

Understanding how numbers work is making me a villain, apparently. I'm commenting on this thread because I understand why the changes are bad for this build in particular. While I have decent general knowledge of all classes at this point, this change stuck out because I am a warrior main and because it was particularly overcooked.

(And again, there is ZERO CHANCE you fall out of berserk mode with Smash Brawler traited. If you manage to do it after this patch, it's because you're not even doing 30% of the dmg you should be doing, because it means you aren't hitting the boss almost at all. And those players shouldn't be caring about what's meta, they should be identifying why exactly it is they aren't making contact with the boss even remotely often enough to matter.)

What is "making you the villain" is not the "understanding how numbers work" its how you're ignoring the context and the bigger picture. You do seem to be focused on Warrior with this particular concern when it is a far more wide ranging, across many classes, circumstance that isn't being acknowledged or taken into consideration. It is basically reading as "This is a problem on Warrior and Warrior alone therefore they should change it before the patch launches" which isn't a solution because the everything else that already exists now with other classes will continue to exist.

You're also taking theorized numbers in a vacuum, benchmarks are benchmarks. On a golem. That doesn't move or have mechanics which are all disruptions of DPS output especially on a melee class in this game.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

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*checks notes*...math. 

@mandala.8507 Let me point something out.

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To break it down: From 30 seconds in the video until 54 seconds, we do 33.6k dps over 24 seconds with the following procs of our rage and burst skills:

• 6 Arc Dividers
• 5 Decapitates (would have been 6 if I didn't mess up)
• 2 Blood Reckonings
• 2 Wild Blows

With our new extension via Smash Brawler, this means that over a 24 second period, we extended our Berserk mode by:

• 6 Arc Dividers for 2 extra seconds each = +12 seconds
• 5 Decapitates for 1 extra second each = +5 seconds
• 2 Blood Reckonings for 2 extra seconds each (still works this way on current patch) = +4 seconds
• 2 Wild Blows for 4 extra seconds each (still works this way on current patch) = +8 seconds

So in total, we extended our berserk mode by 29 seconds (30 if I hit all my decapitates) over a 24 second period when it already has a baseline duration of 20 seconds.

You're not accounting for the cast times of the moves that increase the berserk durations. 

• Decapitate takes .75 seconds to hit.
• Wild blow takes .75 seconds to hit. 
• Arc Divider takes .75 seconds to hit.
• Blood reckoning takes .25 seconds to activate. 

Let's assume all of these are performed under quickness, so .325, .325, .325 and .125. 

• Decapitate grants you 1 second, -0.325 from the quickness enhanced cast time, so  0.675.
• Arc Divider grants you 2, less 0.325 cast time, so 1.675.
• Wild Blow, 4 - 0.325, so 3.675.
• Blood reckoning is 1.875. 

On the rotation you submitted, you would have extended your berserk mode by 3.375(Decapitate), 10.05(Arc Divider), 7.35 (Wild Blow) and 3.75 (Blood Reckoning)

That's a 24.5 second increase, over a 24 second period. Even if you pushed this perfect and got the extra decapitate, you're looking at 25.1 over a 24 second period. A single second of error room for your rotation, or you're under the boot of entropy.

the fact that you skill clicked doesn't really matter in this instance, you cannot anim cancel in this game (with some exceptions, such as Axe5, but damage loss), so things like wild blow and blood reckoning need to play out anyway. As you are aware, warrior has a lot of big chunky hits that need to complete because the damage packet is on the end of them. There's no instants here.

This duration cannot be increased with concentration because it is not a boon. 

Now imagine the boss sneezes and you flinch.  Or you sneeze. Or your connection isnt perfect for a single second. All the things that can interrupt you outside of you focusing on a golem.

You could get yourself some more wiggle room by swapping out for outrage, but you lose damage when you do that. Your utility bar is not as flexible as you assert with this change, and the breathing room for permazerk is far tighter. 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Let me point something out.

You're not accounting for the cast times of the moves that increase the berserk durations. 

• Decapitate takes .75 seconds to hit.
• Wild blow takes .75 seconds to hit. 
• Arc Divider takes .75 seconds to hit.
• Blood reckoning takes .25 seconds to activate. 

Let's assume all of these are performed under quickness, so .325, .325, .325 and .125. 

• Decapitate grants you 1 second, -0.325 from the quickness enhanced cast time, so  0.675.
• Arc Divider grants you 2, less 0.325 cast time, so 1.675.
• Wild Blow, 4 - 0.325, so 3.675.
• Blood reckoning is 1.875. 

On the rotation you submitted, you would have extended your berserk mode by 3.375(Decapitate), 10.05(Arc Divider), 7.35 (Wild Blow) and 3.75 (Blood Reckoning)

That's a 24.5 second increase, over a 24 second period. Even if you pushed this perfect and got the extra decapitate, you're looking at 25.1 over a 24 second period. A single second of error room for your rotation, or you're under the boot of entropy.

the fact that you skill clicked doesn't really matter in this instance, you cannot anim cancel in this game (with some exceptions, such as Axe5, but damage loss), so things like wild blow and blood reckoning need to play out anyway. As you are aware, warrior has a lot of big chunky hits that need to complete because the damage packet is on the end of them. There's no instants here.

This duration cannot be increased with concentration because it is not a boon. 

Now imagine the boss sneezes and you flinch.  Or you sneeze. Or your connection isnt perfect for a single second.

You could get yourself some more wiggle room by swapping out for outrage, but you lose damage when you do that. Your utility bar is not as flexible as you assert with this change, and the breathing room for permazerk is far tighter. 

Now do the same thing with the quickness application from the new trait 🧐

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Now do the same thing with the quickness application from the new trait 🧐

No. 🐈

[mandala.8507]

30 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You're not accounting for the cast times of the moves that increase the berserk durations. 

• Decapitate takes .75 seconds to hit.
• Wild blow takes .75 seconds to hit. 
• Arc Divider takes .75 seconds to hit.
• Blood reckoning takes .25 seconds to activate. 

Let's assume all of these are performed under quickness, so .325, .325, .325 and .125. 

• Decapitate grants you 1 second, -0.325 from the quickness enhanced cast time, so  0.675.
• Arc Divider grants you 2, less 0.325 cast time, so 1.675.
• Wild Blow, 4 - 0.325, so 3.675.
• Blood reckoning is 1.875. 

On the rotation you submitted, you would have extended your berserk mode by 3.375(Decapitate), 10.05(Arc Divider), 7.35 (Wild Blow) and 3.75 (Blood Reckoning)

That's a 24.5 second increase, over a 24 second period. Even if you pushed this perfect and got the extra decapitate, you're looking at 25.1 over a 24 second period. A single second of error room for your rotation, or you're under the boot of entropy.

Friend. Bro. My guy.

This math is offending me; because the 24 seconds already includes the cast times, my man.

You just double dipped the cast times. This is bad math. You should ask the moderators to delete this comment for you.

Or we can use it as a teachable moment for why we should double check our work before we hit publish. Up to you.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

30 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Friend. Bro. My guy.

This math is offending me; because the 24 seconds already includes the cast times, my man.

You just double dipped the cast times. This is bad math. You should ask the moderators to delete this comment for you.

Or we can use it as a teachable moment for why we should double check our work before we hit publish. Up to you.

Am I insane?
Do rage skills refund the cast time of the skills used in fractional berserk mode duration when they land? 

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You're not accounting for the cast times of the moves that increase the berserk durations. 

what I mean by this is you're not actually getting the full second values of the skills used to extend berserk mode. You're getting slightly less, because the animations need to complete. When you account for that, the uptime is much tighter. Thats why I mentioned the high end of 25.1 if you got in the other decapitate.

Quote

With our new extension via Smash Brawler, this means that over a 24 second period, we extended our Berserk mode by:

• 6 Arc Dividers for 2 extra seconds each = +12 seconds
• 5 Decapitates for 1 extra second each = +5 seconds
• 2 Blood Reckonings for 2 extra seconds each (still works this way on current patch) = +4 seconds
• 2 Wild Blows for 4 extra seconds each (still works this way on current patch) = +8 seconds

So in total, we extended our berserk mode by 29 seconds (30 if I hit all my decapitates) over a 24 second period when it already has a baseline duration of 20 seconds.

This extension is actually 24.5, because berserk mode time doesn't pause while you cast. For arc divider, you don't actually get 12 seconds, you get 9.75, because a portion of that is spent casting. 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Am I insane?
Do rage skills refund the cast time of the skills used in fractional berserk mode duration when they land?

The berserk surplus we generate across the cycle (the cycle simply being the period which I picked based off the 80% mark from the golem room) is the sum of the berserk extension generated minus the time it took to cast all skills. The 24 seconds includes the cast times because that's what we spent the 24 seconds doing. 24 seconds is already the sum of all cast times of our abilities.

Berserk extension sum total = 29 

How long it took us to do that = 24 seconds

"How long it took us to do that" includes all the cast times for the burst and rage skills, because it's the sum of all cast times for the rotation.

So the surplus we generated is 29-24, which equals 5 seconds extra every 24 seconds (at the speed I was playing, which isn't actually that impressive).

We can't subtract the individual burst and rage skill cast times from the time spent in rotation total separately, because they are already part of the 24 seconds we spent doing the rotation.

[mandala.8507]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This extension is actually 24.5, because berserk mode time doesn't pause while you cast. For arc divider, you don't actually get 12 seconds, you get 9.75, because a portion of that is spent casting. 

PLEASE tell me you figured out why this is incorrect. Please. My faith in humanity can't take this hit today.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

The berserk surplus we generate across the cycle (the cycle simply being the period which I picked based off the 80% mark from the golem room) is the sum of the berserk extension generated minus the time it took to cast all skills. The 24 seconds includes the cast times because that's what we spent the 24 seconds doing. 24 seconds is already the sum of all cast times of our abilities.

Yes. 

Quote

 

How long it took us to do that = 24 seconds

Yes~

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Berserk extension sum total = 29 

No.

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

PLEASE tell me you figured out why this is incorrect. Please. My faith in humanity can't take this hit today.

Nope~ I don't think you're talking about what I'm talking about. I am not referring to the total cast time of the abilities, I am talking about the total time gained specifically for berserk mode continuation. Let me try to explain it a different way.

With the new Smash Brawler, you don't get additional berserk time, Berserk lasts 20 seconds by default (on next patch.) so, by 20 seconds into the video after Zerk mode is on, whatever you accumulated is what you will now start burning to stay in berserk mode, yeah?

You start at :30. 

You use the following skills before :50

• Arc Divider at :30
• Blood Reckoning, Arc Divider at :31 and :32
• Wild Blow at :33
• Arc Divider at :36
• Decap at :38
• Decap at :40
• Decap at :43
• Arc Divider at :44
• Arc Divider at :48 (Note the time lost in berserk mode due to the cooldown hitch, which is what I am getting at here)
• Blood Reckoning, Arc Divider at :49
• Nothing at 50. That's it. You start burning accumulated time now

So that's 2,2,2,4,2,1,1,1,2,2,2,2. 24, from completely fresh cd, with alacrity on you, assuming you dont miss anything, assuming you arent interrupted.

You keep talking about math but it's not 5 seconds every 24 seconds. it's 4 seconds for the first 20 (on your rotation), after which you now need to deal with entropy from skills currently on cooldown when you start again. Again, assuming literally nothing happens to interrupt you.

Quote

PLEASE tell me you figured out why this is incorrect. Please. My faith in humanity can't take this hit today.

I must be insane.
 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[JTGuevara.9018]

????

So...warrior doing damage: bad?

(shakes head)...see this is my problem with numbers and benchmarks, they don't tell the whole story. OP, I don't dispute the math. I will dispute the basic premise. WHY is this a problem?...In relation to other classes, this is consistent and in line with the rest of the game.

Even if you hypothetically had the perfect or most broken traits, they would still be countered by warrior's limitations. Even with this change to maintaining berzerk mode, warrior still has to stick to melee range to even have a chance to sniff these numbers. Try this with a real encounter and see how far you get. The primary problem with warrior is in its profession mechanics and weapon skills. Not so much traits. I've seen years and years worth of traits scrapped, tweaked, buffed, neutered, experimented, juiced, overtuned, overcooked, fried, deep-fried, grilled, sauted to ensure that They. Did. Not. Amount. To. A. Hill. Of. Beans.

[mandala.8507]

Putting the idea you could lose berserk to bed.

Here's the current benchmark rotation video:

By my count over 92 seconds, just counting the skills I use in my video that extend berserk:

• 17 Arc Divider
• 5 Blood Reckoning
• 6 Wild Blow
• 31 Decap

For a total of 99 seconds of extension to berserk over the 92 seconds.

And if you factor in the rage skills demonstrated in this video that you could run while still doing a 43k rotation:

• 11 Outrage (3 seconds each)
• 5 Headbutt (2 seconds each)

For a grand total of 142 seconds of berserk extension over the 92 second period. Meaning that after he finishes, he would stay in berserk for another 70 seconds without having to press a single other button.

And as my math from earlier in the thread points out, for the quickness version you are only changing 1 trait that moves this dps to just above 39k.

But most people will realize that even at a berserk extension deficit, it's still better to run fewer rage skills because the dmg phase will be over by the time you run out anyway.

As far as quickness:

• 17 x 3 = 51
• 31 x 2 = 62

For 113 seconds of quickness generation over a 92 second period. Seems pretty free to me.

Edited November 2, 2023 by mandala.8507
accidentally posted early

[Fueki.4753]

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

snipped for obvious reasons

And you still didn't bother using an actual encounter, despite repeatedly being reminded of it.

As long as you can only proof your perceived point on a Golem, but not in an actual encounter, your point practically has no point.

The fights with the Scruffy 2.0 in Season 4 and Balthazar in Elon Riverlands are waiting for you.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Myror.7521]

@mandala.8507 i rly do think this could be an endless discussion ^^. Is been able to be in Berserk mode the whole time Bad? Or "too good"? Not rly. The only difference will be that your dmg does not hard drop cause you run out off Berserk. Is the "no CD on Heat the Soul" thingy too broken? Well at the very First Look hmm maybe. But at the second look you noticed that you would gain quickness and only quickness to your Team. (At least If you not going to play other stuff like Banners and so on witch would also hard drop your DPS Overall) Not like other classes witch could also stack other stuff (like Stabi extra healing and stuff) aside their Main boon gaining) . I still do think the new quick warrior will not be OP. Cause to do the exact things that other classes could do your dmg will likely be on the same lvl as theirs. 

 

If you rly want to be like a condi Specter you need for example to drop out your Signet of might for another defensive Banner. This means a loss of 180 passive Power boost. Or you in and drop instead a rage Skill for it. The dmg will likely be the same but you will drop out the berserk mode pretty fast as a result witch also means a hughe dps loss If the enemy got too long to get killed ^^

[mandala.8507]

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And you still didn't bother using an actual encounter, despite repeatedly being reminded of it.

Because I actually play warrior and so don't suffer from the notion that this won't work on a real boss.

But because it's a free win, here you go:

And here's the log: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/myKI-20231101-222032_cairn

So over a 56 second fight we get:

• 10 Arc Divider
• 4 Wild Blow
• 20 Decap
• 3 Blood Reckoning

Total Berserk extension over 56 seconds = 62 seconds (and this is excluding the headbutts and outrages because I wouldn't actual use them in the rotation after the patch on 95% of encounters).

Total quickness generated by the new version of heat the soul = 70 seconds for a 56 second fight. 125% quickness uptime with zero boon duration. Lovely.

Surely this won't be broken. Surely this won't be a huge buff to power berserker. Surely. You guys are right and I'm wrong. Surely.

[Arewn.2368]

On 10/30/2023 at 3:09 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

qBerserker being able to do a bit more damage than other qDPS when it is allowed to be in melee range is far more than offset by the fact that Berserker's output drops close to nothing, as soon as it leaves melee range.

A profession that only reliably functions in melee range should perform better in melee than professions that have access to decent ranged weapons.

I doubt your golden combination would be all that good. If qBerserker needs someone to babysit it so it can stay in melee 100% of the time and have that partner also provide all the other boons, said partner's damage will probably not be scratching the upper end of the numbers and thus offsetting qBerserker's hypothetical overperformance.

I more or less agree, but melee uptime vs range is a whole other can of worms that requires its own discussion.

On the subject of support vs dps, it wouldn't be the first time we see a meta form around particular group comps reliant on specific builds. 

[Myror.7521]

@mandala.8507 who of us even said this isnt a buff though Berserker tho ^^. All we all telling you is that it is not broken. Its just one boon that you share while you drop some dps for been able to using it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

13 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Putting the idea you could lose berserk to bed.

Here's the current benchmark rotation video:

By my count over 92 seconds, just counting the skills I use in my video that extend berserk:

• 17 Arc Divider
• 5 Blood Reckoning
• 6 Wild Blow
• 31 Decap

For a total of 99 seconds of extension to berserk over the 92 seconds.

Fair, agreed.

58 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

So over a 56 second fight we get:

• 10 Arc Divider
• 4 Wild Blow
• 20 Decap
• 3 Blood Reckoning

Total Berserk extension over 56 seconds = 62 seconds (and this is excluding the headbutts and outrages because I wouldn't actual use them in the rotation after the patch on 95% of encounters).

Total quickness generated by the new version of heat the soul = 70 seconds for a 56 second fight. 125% quickness uptime with zero boon duration. Lovely.

Also fair, agreed.

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Surely this won't be a huge buff to power berserker. 

It is, nobody claimed it wasn't, or people wouldn't care this much.

Quote

Surely this won't be broken.

Will it, though? Once you swap off of blood reaction and drop your damage to 39k (on the bench end), for the reworked Heat the Soul, what -additional- hoops do you need for this?

How much concentration do you expect warriors to need to take to maintain 100% uptime on this, given where the damage sits right now on full glass? Keep in mind the quickness is still (minorly) conditional and requires you to hit the boss to pump it (Assuming heat the soul will continue to function that way) . That will work on Cairn, but any boss phase that requires you to move (or ignores bursts for phases/mechanic reasons) nukes your group uptime. Cairn is jusr a bigger golem.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Obtena.7952]

19 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Putting the idea you could lose berserk to bed.

Here's the current benchmark rotation video:

By my count over 92 seconds, just counting the skills I use in my video that extend berserk:

• 17 Arc Divider
• 5 Blood Reckoning
• 6 Wild Blow
• 31 Decap

For a total of 99 seconds of extension to berserk over the 92 seconds.

And if you factor in the rage skills demonstrated in this video that you could run while still doing a 43k rotation:

• 11 Outrage (3 seconds each)
• 5 Headbutt (2 seconds each)

For a grand total of 142 seconds of berserk extension over the 92 second period. Meaning that after he finishes, he would stay in berserk for another 70 seconds without having to press a single other button.

And as my math from earlier in the thread points out, for the quickness version you are only changing 1 trait that moves this dps to just above 39k.

But most people will realize that even at a berserk extension deficit, it's still better to run fewer rage skills because the dmg phase will be over by the time you run out anyway.

As far as quickness:

• 17 x 3 = 51
• 31 x 2 = 62

For 113 seconds of quickness generation over a 92 second period. Seems pretty free to me.

Nothing about this video suggests there is a problem here though. A problem only exists when it's in game and it it doesn't see equivalent usage with its peers in its relevant roles. 

Again, what a build does in it's own bubble against the golem isn't indicative of any issue it may have in game along side other builds in real encounters. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

27 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what a build does in it's own bubble against the golem isn't indicative of any issue it may have in game along side other builds in real encounters. 

So you skipped the one I shared with a real encounter, or are you just not there in the thread yet?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

So you skipped the one I shared with a real encounter, or are you just not there in the thread yet?

Obtena's statement applies independent of either video.