Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[Slowpokeking.8720]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Why did Orr lose to the charrs?

• Ascalon had been shielding them from the Charrs for a long time so they most likely didn't expect their shield to fall. They were caught off guard.
• The Charrs most likely had a high moral from taking back Ascalon after a long time.
• Orrians that had managed to avoid the first 2 Guild wars had gotten drawn in the 3rd Guild war causing chaos within Arah's street which probably contributed to weaken their battle readiness.
• The nature of the Orrian's magic might not have been suitable for war as they were said to "practice magic in an everyday fashion that would seem strange to visitors".
• Abbadon might have had a hand into the fall of Orr as it was the time period in which he was moving actively behind the scene. He was quite good at stirring trouble and he had quite the grudge against the other gods.

They did have their army back to deal with them.

Which they didn't lose much strength in the guild wars.

They got powerful priests and could even make spectral weapons, why would you think they are not good at combat magic?

Yeah Abbadon might be the reason.

[Trejgon.9367]

I had response typed out adressing points OP tried to raise against my response, but then I have read through the rest of it, and all that was in that response was, 1. already stated by someone else, and 2. OP responded to those points with "no because I say so."

For some reason that I cannot determine, OP seems to be under impression, that since undead army raised by an Elder Dragon ended up having powerfull spellcasters, and because White Mantle, whom was only capable when they had mursaat behind them, struggled without said mursaat intervention against undead risen by Lich Khilbron, that somehow this means that Orr had super powerfull army.

And based on this belief, OP started to asking about how this event could happen in the lore, where that particular event of the lore actually shows, that no, Orrian army was nothing special.

[Dadnir.5038]

49 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They did have their army back to deal with them.

Which they didn't lose much strength in the guild wars.

They got powerful priests and could even make spectral weapons, why would you think they are not good at combat magic?

Yeah Abbadon might be the reason.

You seem misled here. You're insisting on Orr having a powerful army but, History of Tyria (an Official text of GW's lore) say clearly that the Guilds had long taken over the fighting strength and influence of the 3 Human kingdom (Ascalon, Orr And Kryta). All the various kings and their governments could do was set up some official law and claim ownership of the land in name. The Guilds were the one that were in charge of making the citizen respect the law and protect the country (and they could even ignore those laws if they wanted).

Also, "spectral weapons" are magic weapons that have been taken over by the risen. They are probably only animated structure due to the influence of zhaitan long after Orr fell.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Slowpokeking.8720]

23 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I had response typed out adressing points OP tried to raise against my response, but then I have read through the rest of it, and all that was in that response was, 1. already stated by someone else, and 2. OP responded to those points with "no because I say so."

For some reason that I cannot determine, OP seems to be under impression, that since undead army raised by an Elder Dragon ended up having powerfull spellcasters, and because White Mantle, whom was only capable when they had mursaat behind them, struggled without said mursaat intervention against undead risen by Lich Khilbron, that somehow this means that Orr had super powerfull army.

And based on this belief, OP started to asking about how this event could happen in the lore, where that particular event of the lore actually shows, that no, Orrian army was nothing special.

Orrian army was surely stronger than Saul's buddies.

And they got very powerful casters.

[Kalavier.1097]

51 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They didn't, they prepared for it.

And the Charr was weakened, since they had to spend a lot of forces to deal with Ascalon, remember Ascalon didn't fall.

How?  The priests all have super strong combat magic, King Reza got scepter of Orr in his control.

They also create powerful spectral weapons, which means they are not bad at combat magic.

 

A: The army was there, but any guilds were rushing home. Those guilds wouldn't be in a good combat spot.

B: The Charr explicitly weren't weakened as much as they expected, and that was where Orr's intel failed. The Charr broke into three forces basically. One large force rushed through Ascalon straight to Orr, fresh, ready to fight. Another group crossed the far Shiverpeaks and invaded Kryta from the North, causing some havoc, but facing some weakening effects of the mountain crossing. The third group basically stayed in Ascalon and continued fighting the defenders there. The assumption was the Charr had been using all their forces to fight Ascalon, when the ones that attacked Orr basically just bypassed the fighting and charged.

C : Priests aren't explicitly known to have expert combat magic or skills/practice in using it that way, in their life. Reza is explicitly stated to be more of a man of peace then war, and that's why Orr was weakened before the Charr invasion, because he was trying to stop the guild wars. Also, GW1 literally says that the Scepter of Orr DISAPPEARED between Charr's attack on Ascalon (the searing) and the Charr reaching the border of Orr. When the Charr attacked, the scepter was, very explicitly, missing. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Karriya 

Quote

The continent of Tyria was in turmoil The scepter was lost somewhere between when the Charr attacked Ascalon and when they reached the borders of Orr.

D : Able to summon spectral weapons doesn't actually let us know how quickly it can be done, or how durable they are.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Just now, Dadnir.5038 said:

You seem misled here. You're insisting on Orr having a powerful army but, History of Tyria (an Official text of GW's lore) say clearly that the Guilds had long taken over the fighting strength and influence of the 3 Human kingdom (Ascalon, Orr And Kryta). All the various kings and there governments could do was set up some official law and claim ownership of the land in name. The Guilds were the one that were in charge of making the citizen respect the law and protect the country (and they could even ignore those laws if they wanted).

Also, "spectral weapons" are magic weapons that have been taken over by the risen. They are probably only animated structure due to the influence of zhaitan long after Orr fell.

And still, you chose to ignore stated fact:

Quote

The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

 

Quote

Sharur was retrieved from among the spectral weapons guarding the Source of Orr. Though its lingering corruption is aimless and benign, not even the Artesian Waters could fully cleanse it.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

5 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And still, you chose to ignore stated fact:

 

 

That would imply the Spectral weapons are used to protect holy sites, not as active war-machines. 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

2 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

A: The army was there, but any guilds were rushing home. Those guilds wouldn't be in a good combat spot.

B: The Charr explicitly weren't weakened as much as they expected, and that was where Orr's intel failed. The Charr broke into three forces basically. One large force rushed through Ascalon straight to Orr, fresh, ready to fight. Another group crossed the far Shiverpeaks and invaded Kryta from the North, causing some havoc, but facing some weakening effects of the mountain crossing. The third group basically stayed in Ascalon and continued fighting the defenders there. The assumption was the Charr had been using all their forces to fight Ascalon, when the ones that attacked Orr basically just bypassed the fighting and charged.

C : Priests aren't explicitly known to have expert combat magic or skills/practice in using it that way, in their life. Reza is explicitly stated to be more of a man of peace then war, and that's why Orr was weakened before the Charr invasion, because he was trying to stop the guild wars. Also, GW1 literally says that the Scepter of Orr DISAPPEARED between Charr's attack on Ascalon (the searing) and the Charr reaching the border of Orr. When the Charr attacked, the scepter was, very explicitly, missing. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Karriya 

D : Able to summon spectral weapons doesn't actually let us know how quickly it can be done, or how durable they are.

A Where? The Charr also got to march there.

B They were still weakened and got to split their forces, through a long march their supply line would become a problem.

Wrong, the Risen priests showed they know a lot of combat magic.

Reza is the most powerful of all Orrian Kings, which was why he was chosen by Zhaitan.

Those who knew of its whereabouts were all killed in the Cataclysm.

From what we saw in GW1, the scepter obviously teleported away during Cataclysm when danger came.  Why would it become lost when it's at the king's hand?

[Slowpokeking.8720]

2 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That would imply the Spectral weapons are used to protect holy sites, not as active war-machines. 

So it's proven that they have the power to fight others.

Are you saying that Orrian ppl are all idiot, not knowing they could use them in war?

[Slowpokeking.8720]

I dunno why ppl are still saying the priests cannot fight.

All Risen priests knew how to fight with their divine magic, not dragon magic.

Zhaitan doesn't have power over 6 gods' magic. Otherwise we would see other Risen using it.

Also it was after they no longer serve their gods and their gods have long left the world, which means their power would be weaker.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

19 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

A Where? The Charr also got to march there.

B They were still weakened and got to split their forces, through a long march their supply line would become a problem.

Wrong, the Risen priests showed they know a lot of combat magic.

Reza is the most powerful of all Orrian Kings, which was why he was chosen by Zhaitan.

Those who knew of its whereabouts were all killed in the Cataclysm.

From what we saw in GW1, the scepter obviously teleported away during Cataclysm when danger came.  Why would it become lost when it's at the king's hand?

I see you are explicitly and willingly ignoring the fact that "The Scepter of Orr was missing, it's location completely unknown, before the Charr reached the borders of Orr." If you cannot accept that fact, you appear to be trying to twist the lore to your own needs rather then accepting what is written.

15 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

I dunno why ppl are still saying the priests cannot fight.

All Risen priests knew how to fight with their divine magic, not dragon magic.

Zhaitan doesn't have power over 6 gods' magic. Otherwise we would see other Risen using it.

Also it was after they no longer serve their gods and their gods have long left the world, which means their power would be weaker.

Risen priests? You mean the actual priests of the gods and not other spellcasters? Because they all, from a quick search, use absolutely basic class related skills. The Priest of Grenth uses necromancer, Lyssa using mesmer abilities.

They are not super-expert fighters, nor are they using any abilities that are unique to the gods. You also explicitly don't understand how spellcasting works it appears, as the gods don't snap their fingers and allow specific people to use, or not use, certain types of magic. A Mesmer, risen, alive, or Awakened, can use mesmer magics.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Slowpokeking.8720]

6 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I see you are explicitly and willingly ignoring the fact that "The Scepter of Orr was missing, it's location completely unknown, before the Charr reached the borders of Orr. If you cannot accept that fact, you appear to be trying to twist the lore to your own needs rather then accepting what is written.

Risen priests? You mean the actual priests of the gods and not other spellcasters? Because they all, from a quick search, use absolutely basic class related skills. The Priest of Grenth uses necromancer, Lyssa using mesmer abilities.

They are not super-expert fighters, nor are they using any abilities that are unique to the gods. You also explicitly don't understand how spellcasting works it appears, as the gods don't snap their fingers and allow specific people to use, or not use, certain types of magic. A Mesmer, risen, alive, or Awakened, can use mesmer magics.

No, you are ignoring all other facts. We saw that the Scepter could teleport itself, or maybe Abaddon let his men stole it.

Really?  Melandru's priests can turn ppl into animals, summon trees and all the things.

Lyssa' priests can make copies of foes, teleport ppl around.

Others also got very unique power.

Yeah it's similar to some classes because these human classes' power also came from the gods, but to a much stronger level. They are all very tough fighters.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Also remember Orr got The Artesian Waters, so their magic would be further amplified.

[Kalavier.1097]

23 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, you are ignoring all other facts. We saw that the Scepter could teleport itself, or maybe Abaddon let his men stole it.

Really?  Melandru's priests can turn ppl into animals, summon trees and all the things.

Lyssa' priests can make copies of foes, teleport ppl around.

Others also got very unique power.

Yeah it's similar to some classes because these human classes' power also came from the gods, but to a much stronger level. They are all very tough fighters.

One of your major points have been "Reza has the scepter, therefore Orr wins" when the lore is literally: Nobody had the scepter when the Charr attacked Orr.

Also, actual priests of the gods are among the minority of Risen, and are much more likely to be at the temples then in the army (besides maybe Balthazar ones). Even then, their abilities are almost entirely the same as the rest of their related class. The one you mention turning people into animals is a high priest, aka the heads of the church. Aka not common. Same for the other Risen priests we fight. Every single one, mind you, who is within their temple. Where they died. Not on the front-lines.

Actual priests of the gods were at the temples, not in the guilds or within the national army of Orr.

23 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also remember Orr got The Artesian Waters, so their magic would be further amplified.

The waters are a source of magic, to actually use it to amplify yourself would involve you know, being at the source. You can't use it and be on the other side of Orr fighting at the front lines.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 minute ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

One of your major points have been "Reza has the scepter, therefore Orr wins" when the lore is literally: Nobody had the scepter when the Charr attacked Orr.

Also, actual priests of the gods are among the minority of Risen, and are much more likely to be at the temples then in the army (besides maybe Balthazar ones). Even then, their abilities are almost entirely the same as the rest of their related class. The one you mention turning people into animals is a high priest, aka the heads of the church. Aka not common. Same for the other Risen priests we fight. Every single one, mind you, who is within their temple. Where they died. Not on the front-lines.

Actual priests of the gods were at the temples, not in the guilds or within the national army of Orr.

The waters are a source of magic, to actually use it to amplify yourself would involve you know, being at the source. You can't use it and be on the other side of Orr fighting at the front lines.

So it's very possible that Abbadon let ppl steal their important stuff, that was my point from the beginning, Abaddon messed it up.

We only got 3 Mursaat in the war as well. There are more than 2 groups of priests. When the Charr is at the gate of Arah, why didn't the king's assemble them to fight then?

Wut? Many of their skills are much stronger than ordinary classes. We only got like 3 Murssat fighting the Charr as well. Why didn't Reza call up them? Also he is a very powerful figure himself, since he didn't get corrupted by the Scepter when it's in his hold.

They know it. Reza clearly knew what was the Source, and the Source's magic had expanded through Orr. Which is why it's important in the personal story: Zhaitan corrupted it so its corruption had spread to the entire Orr, when it's cleansed, the whole land started to revert.

[Kalavier.1097]

7 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

So it's very possible that Abbadon let ppl steal their important stuff, that was my point from the beginning, Abaddon messed it up.

We only got 3 Mursaat in the war as well. There are more than 2 groups of priests. When the Charr is at the gate of Arah, why didn't the king's assemble them to fight then?

Wut? Many of their skills are much stronger than ordinary classes. We only got like 3 Murssat fighting the Charr as well. Why didn't Reza call up them? Also he is a very powerful figure himself, since he didn't get corrupted by the Scepter when it's in his hold.

They know it. Reza clearly knew what was the Source, and the Source's magic had expanded through Orr. Which is why it's important in the personal story: Zhaitan corrupted it so its corruption had spread to the entire Orr, when it's cleansed, the whole land started to revert.

A: what?

B : What? The three Mursaat were part of the stealth operation to kill the Charr leaders and disorganize the army Mursaat are also individually typically more powerful then regular humans. "The gates of Arah" is now more implied to be closer to the east side of Orr, then the literal gates. Vizier cast his cursed spell from his tower as I recall, which is also again, on the east side of the landmass. In Jahai's flashback we have Orrian soldiers fighting to protect the tower from the Charr. We also find cauldrens around the tower in the water, indicating Charr forces were established in that area sieging. Again, the priests would be in their temples. We literally know the Keepers of Grenth's shrine were at the temple when the Charr invaded, and died there. We literally have more evidence the priesthoods were busy at their temples and not on the frontlines.

C : Reza is a peaceful man, and it's not even known how much he had the scepter around him. As I recall, it's more implied to be stored in a vault then actively in use. 3 Mursaat in an assassination mission does not compare to trying to shove priests onto the frontline of a massive battle.  Why didn't he call them? Because he's a man of peace, not war. Why would he start shoving priests out of their temples into a warzone? And again, just because they knew certain magics doesn't mean they could effectively use them against an attacking army. Risen are controlled by Zhaitan, and directed by the dragon's will and desires. The way they fight in undeath under the dragon does not match how they acted in life. We literally have that shown to us by Reza himself. His magics and powers shackled and used by the Eye of Zhaitan against his will.

 

Could Orr have won? Maybe. But it didn't. 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

10 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

A: what?

B : What? The three Mursaat were part of the stealth operation to kill the Charr leaders and disorganize the army Mursaat are also individually typically more powerful then regular humans. "The gates of Arah" is now more implied to be closer to the east side of Orr, then the literal gates. Vizier cast his cursed spell from his tower as I recall, which is also again, on the east side of the landmass. In Jahai's flashback we have Orrian soldiers fighting to protect the tower from the Charr. We also find cauldrens around the tower in the water, indicating Charr forces were established in that area sieging. Again, the priests would be in their temples. We literally know the Keepers of Grenth's shrine were at the temple when the Charr invaded, and died there. We literally have more evidence the priesthoods were busy at their temples and not on the frontlines.

C : Reza is a peaceful man, and it's not even known how much he had the scepter around him. As I recall, it's more implied to be stored in a vault then actively in use. 3 Mursaat in an assassination mission does not compare to trying to shove priests onto the frontline of a massive battle.  Why didn't he call them? Because he's a man of peace, not war. Why would he start shoving priests out of their temples into a warzone? And again, just because they knew certain magics doesn't mean they could effectively use them against an attacking army. Risen are controlled by Zhaitan, and directed by the dragon's will and desires. The way they fight in undeath under the dragon does not match how they acted in life. We literally have that shown to us by Reza himself. His magics and powers shackled and used by the Eye of Zhaitan against his will.

 

Could Orr have won? Maybe. But it didn't. 

They got detected and the Charr army was keep attacking him. It was no longer assassination anymore, but open war head to head, and the Mursaat were able to kill waves of Charr, leaving the rest to flee.

And remember the priests also have the power to stealth, why didn't they help the troops? They could heal, stealth, trick and do all the things.

If they still got such powerful magic users and obviously not all troops are gone, then they should have enough power to hold the charr back, even Ascalon could last so long.

Peaceful doesn't mean they aren't good at fighting, our characters aren't peaceful? Peaceful doesn't mean idiot, when the foe was butchering your land and you still don't do anything.

Again Zhaitan got no knowledge of using the gods' power, these priests obviously had fighting magic, and it's not dragon magic.

Reza is the most powerful of all kings, also his ability as eye was mostly dragon magic, not god magic, unlike the priests.

Orr got all the magic and power, the problem isn't even it didn't win, but it fell in 12 hours, which makes very little sense when Ascalon could hold for 20 years, Kryta obviously fought longer even before the Mursaat had shown up.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

I'd just note that explicitly, and literally stated, Zhaitan has all the knowledge of every Risen. 

That is quite literally why Trahearne raises a horde of random undead to defend the one tome as it's being recovered, as they cannot share any knowledge if killed/corrupted. It's why the Pale Reavers became such a major force, they could not become Risen, so they had no fear of transmitting any war information.

Risen priestess of Lyssa brings to Zhaitan 100% of her knowledge and abilities. It doesn't matter if (and it's not even stated to be true) that her powers came directly from the gods, she knew those spells. And thus Zhaitan can make use of those spells through the Priestess.

 

Also, quite literally Ascalon held only, and explicitly only, because of the Great Northern Wall, and their ability even after the searing to keep the Charr north of it for the most part. Ascalon held because they are a stubborn people who are EXCELLENT at siege defense and they held the line only because they held their walls. The armies of Orr fought the Charr on the open field, not from a fortified line of defensive structures. That gives the Charr a physical advantage that cannot be ignored.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

8 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd just note that explicitly, and literally stated, Zhaitan has all the knowledge of every Risen. 

That is quite literally why Trahearne raises a horde of random undead to defend the one tome as it's being recovered, as they cannot share any knowledge if killed/corrupted. It's why the Pale Reavers became such a major force, they could not become Risen, so they had no fear of transmitting any war information.

Risen priestess of Lyssa brings to Zhaitan 100% of her knowledge and abilities. It doesn't matter if (and it's not even stated to be true) that her powers came directly from the gods, she knew those spells. And thus Zhaitan can make use of those spells through the Priestess.

 

Also, quite literally Ascalon held only, and explicitly only, because of the Great Northern Wall, and their ability even after the searing to keep the Charr north of it for the most part. Ascalon held because they are a stubborn people who are EXCELLENT at siege defense and they held the line only because they held their walls. The armies of Orr fought the Charr on the open field, not from a fortified line of defensive structures. That gives the Charr a physical advantage that cannot be ignored.

Zhaitan could not use god magic, otherwise other risen would have gods' magic as well, imagine every Risen has god magic with them. Orr had all the gods' altar and temples, but only the priests could use god magic.

Yeah she knew these spells, which means she is a good fighter herself.

And Orrian got powerful magic, army plus the charr didn't use Searing , had to go cross such long distance.

Doesn't matter, they are not idiots, they could just retreat when it's not going well. Especially with such powerful magic.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

4 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Zhaitan could not use god magic, otherwise other risen would have gods' magic as well, imagine every Risen has god magic with them. Orr had all the gods' altar and temples, but only the priests could use god magic.

Yeah she knew these spells, which means she is a good fighter herself.

And Orrian got powerful magic, army plus the charr didn't use Searing , had to go cross such long distance.

Doesn't matter, they are not idiots, they could just retreat when it's not going well. Especially with such powerful magic.

I'd love to know what "God magic" is.

You know, since it's never been a thing before outside of literally describing the gods personal abilities, and not something anybody else could use.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

2 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd love to know what "God magic" is.

You know, since it's never been a thing before outside of literally describing the gods personal abilities, and not something anybody else could use.

The 6 gods' power, like Lyssa's power of illusion, Melandru's power of nature. Only their worshipers could use.

The Risen could not use it unless they were able to grasp it before their death.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

5 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The 6 gods' power, like Lyssa's power of illusion, Melandru's power of nature. Only their worshipers could use.

The Risen could not use it unless they were able to grasp it before their death.

 

I'm sorry to break it to you...

But that's just regular magic. All Mesmers have illusionary magic. All rangers/druids have nature magic. Every Necromancer has death magic. Every Monk/guardian has healing magic. Every elementalist has fire magic.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, they came back.

Allegedly, keep in mind that source is an unreliable narrator who was actively wrong about some things. Also note that even if the writer was correct, there was no way Orrians knew this would be so - especially immediately. So they couldn't do a full immediate retreat without leaving themselves vulnerable. Basic military tactics. Hell, basic RTS tactics.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

We were shown that they are super powerful, through their Risen spellcaster version. We saw what scepter of Orr could do.

They are peaceful but they are good at fighting as well.

The risen are not their true original selves or power. If you ever played Order of Whispers, you'd know that the power of individual risen is dependent on how much magic Zhaitan returns to the corpse during corruption - the more magic given, the more powerful they were. Zhaitan had a tendency to leave those in charge in positions of power among its army, but this means full out that no risen was a 1:1 equivalent in power to their living self.

And even the more powerful risen still fell to a simple army.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Yes they do have powerful army, and they are good at fighting.

Again we saw the priests proved to be powerful fighters even in their Risen version, if they are not good at fighting, how did they know such powerful combat divine magic?

Even just Sharur was a legendary weapon.

I was talking about monk magic, which has double effect on undead. Since even the Lich's undead could cause trouble, the Orrians must be very powerful.

We have Six God's magic as well. Also they don't serve their gods anymore, thus their power should be weaker. The Pact got such advanced technology, years of research and all races' magic/tech.

"Yes they do have ap owerful army"

All evidence you say shows that Zhaitan had a "powerful army". Not Orrians.

Undead cause more trouble than any living being by virtue of not bleeding, needing to sleep or eat, etc. It's a common trope across all fiction that any undead force is stronger and more unrelenting than any living force. Not a solid argument to say the Lich's undead caused the mursaat-less White Mantle some issues. And even then, it's pretty obvious that Khilbron's undead didn't cause that big of an issue, as no city or town was ever lost to those undead. You keep emphasizing this as problematic for Krytans but... was it? Aside from two missions, did the Krytans ever have a legitimate issue fighting the undead army beyond the basic fact of them being undead and coming out of nowhere?

Legendary weapons don't mean jack squat, in all honesty. Sharur was just one of many basic weapons which retained corruption but cleansed of hostility - it's basically a hammer version of mawdrey. Nothing special. And it was certainly nothing the Orrians had access to.

I mean, spectral weapons for all we know were only animated due to Zhaitan.

And again with the "have the Six God's magic as well". Dude, every human had the Five Gods' magic at the time. It wasn't some instant win button. There was no magic nuke spell gifted by the gods or unlimited healing buff.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The dialogue showed the charr didn't use Searing on Orr.

Correction: The dialogue showed that the Pact weren't aware the charr ever used a small searing on Orr.

Unreliable narrator. We cannot be 100% absolutely certain.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Yes he had it on him, the dialogue directly told us, why are you avoiding it?

Why was he the most powerful eye? Because he was the most powerful of the kings. No, the dragon went to the tomb when it rose, it got nothing to do with time.

English 101. "In possession of" does not mean "on his physical person, within physical reach". It means "he owned it".

I own a car. I am in possession of a car. I am not next to my car 24/7.

Why was he the most powerful eye? Because Zhaitan chose him to be.

Trahearne: These seem to be more powerful. They also hold a larger quantity of magic. More of Zhaitan's will, perhaps?

Trahearne: Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan's infused them with tremendous energy. See how the weapon affects them!
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Sucks

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Yes, their magic came from the Titans

Which means they are below the power of the Scepter of Orr and is dominated by it.

That's not how it works.

Charr didn't bow to Khilbron, they were not dominated by the Scepter of Orr.

The Scepter of Orr controls souls by all indication - assuming, again, that Abaddon didn't just tell the titans to follow the guy with the stick. The only solid evidence we have of this, in all honesty, is this guy who follows the PC when they have the Scepter of Orr.

Charr are neither undead nor ghosts. They would not be dominated by the Scepter of Orr, which was designed by the Seers to defend against threats from the Mists - threats like Nightmares and other wandering souls and demons.

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They are peaceful doesn't mean they don't have power to defend themselves.

And the magic proved it.

Also they did prepare for the war.

If the Orrians were as powerful as you claim, why didn't they end the Third Guild War within a generation? Why didn't they just mop the floor with Kryta and Ascalon immediately?

Your own argument is a fallacy. If they were as strong as you claim, to be able to push back the charr, then they would have.  They would have wiped out the Ascalonians and Krytans who barely held against the charr - or didn't. If King Reza was some superhuman capable of commanding entire enemy armies as you claim, then he should have been able to make Ascalon and Kryta and all the guilds submit just by a wave of his staff.

But they didn't. He didn't. Because they couldn't. They were a peaceful nation. They had a standing army, but not supreme military force.

There is a difference between having high magic, and having high combat ready magic and individuals.

There is a difference between owning a tool, and knowing how to use it, let alone using it.

There is a difference between "made strong by an Elder Dragon's corruption" and "was strong before corruption".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Orrian army was surely stronger than Saul's buddies.

And they got very powerful casters.

If this was true, then the Orrians would have won the Third Guild War before the charr invaded.

Since that didn't happen, they clearly weren't.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Just now, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'm sorry to break it to you...

But that's just regular magic. All Mesmers have illusionary magic. All rangers/druids have nature magic. Every Necromancer has death magic. Every Monk/guardian has healing magic. Every elementalist has fire magic.

 

Because they(especially the humans) worship it, if you play GW1, you knows all classes worship the gods, some skills are even named after them

The priests got a larger power from them.