Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[Slowpokeking.8720]

2 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

If this was true, then the Orrians would have won the Third Guild War before the charr invaded.

Since that didn't happen, they clearly weren't.

Because they were not trying to win the war, but stop the war from both sides.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 minute ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Because they(especially the humans) worship it, if you play GW1, you knows all classes worship the gods, some skills are even named after them

The priests got a larger power from them.

You do know Charr mesmers were a thing? Norn mesmers? Asura mesmers? Lyssa did not personally grant people the ability to use illusion magic.

Illusion magic is not some trick that was only available to humans in GW1. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Because they(especially the humans) worship it, if you play GW1, you knows all classes worship the gods, some skills are even named after them

The priests got a larger power from them.

That's... still regular magic. They just named the spells after the gods.

If I brought out a revolver and dubbed it "Jesus's Blessed Argument", that doesn't make the bullets in it any more powerful than a regular revolver's bullets.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 minute ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You do know Charr mesmers were a thing? Norn mesmers? Asura mesmers? Lyssa did not personally grant people the ability to use illusion magic.

Illusion magic is not some trick that was only available to humans in GW1. 

Human's power came from the gods, given by the gods.

And Lyssa's high worshipers could use it to a much higher level.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Because they were not trying to win the war, but stop the war from both sides.

Do... do you not know how wars are stopped?

You stop them by winning them. Or losing them. Not prolonging them.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Just now, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Human's power came from the gods, given by the gods.

And Lyssa's high worshipers could use it to a much higher level.

False human belief. Magic spells in GW1 were the same as any other race's magic spell. The magic comes from the Bloodstone which was made by the Seers, created to house Tyria's ambient magic before the Elder Dragons could consume it.

A lot of magic also came from the Elder Dragons themselves, seeped back into the ley-lines. Zhaitan's presence is why Arah was so magical. The oh-so-powerful spellcasters you claim exist only could because Zhaitan slept under their feet. They were tapping into Zhaitan's magical sweat, not the gods' own personal power.

Just how the charr tapped into Kralkatorrik, and the asura tapped into Primordus.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

16 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Allegedly, keep in mind that source is an unreliable narrator who was actively wrong about some things. Also note that even if the writer was correct, there was no way Orrians knew this would be so - especially immediately. So they couldn't do a full immediate retreat without leaving themselves vulnerable. Basic military tactics. Hell, basic RTS tactics.

The risen are not their true original selves or power. If you ever played Order of Whispers, you'd know that the power of individual risen is dependent on how much magic Zhaitan returns to the corpse during corruption - the more magic given, the more powerful they were. Zhaitan had a tendency to leave those in charge in positions of power among its army, but this means full out that no risen was a 1:1 equivalent in power to their living self.

And even the more powerful risen still fell to a simple army.

"Yes they do have ap owerful army"

All evidence you say shows that Zhaitan had a "powerful army". Not Orrians.

Undead cause more trouble than any living being by virtue of not bleeding, needing to sleep or eat, etc. It's a common trope across all fiction that any undead force is stronger and more unrelenting than any living force. Not a solid argument to say the Lich's undead caused the mursaat-less White Mantle some issues. And even then, it's pretty obvious that Khilbron's undead didn't cause that big of an issue, as no city or town was ever lost to those undead. You keep emphasizing this as problematic for Krytans but... was it? Aside from two missions, did the Krytans ever have a legitimate issue fighting the undead army beyond the basic fact of them being undead and coming out of nowhere?

Legendary weapons don't mean jack squat, in all honesty. Sharur was just one of many basic weapons which retained corruption but cleansed of hostility - it's basically a hammer version of mawdrey. Nothing special. And it was certainly nothing the Orrians had access to.

I mean, spectral weapons for all we know were only animated due to Zhaitan.

And again with the "have the Six God's magic as well". Dude, every human had the Five Gods' magic at the time. It wasn't some instant win button. There was no magic nuke spell gifted by the gods or unlimited healing buff.

Correction: The dialogue showed that the Pact weren't aware the charr ever used a small searing on Orr.

Unreliable narrator. We cannot be 100% absolutely certain.

English 101. "In possession of" does not mean "on his physical person, within physical reach". It means "he owned it".

I own a car. I am in possession of a car. I am not next to my car 24/7.

Why was he the most powerful eye? Because Zhaitan chose him to be.

Trahearne: These seem to be more powerful. They also hold a larger quantity of magic. More of Zhaitan's will, perhaps?

Trahearne: Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan's infused them with tremendous energy. See how the weapon affects them!
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Sucks

That's not how it works.

Charr didn't bow to Khilbron, they were not dominated by the Scepter of Orr.

The Scepter of Orr controls souls by all indication - assuming, again, that Abaddon didn't just tell the titans to follow the guy with the stick. The only solid evidence we have of this, in all honesty, is this guy who follows the PC when they have the Scepter of Orr.

Charr are neither undead nor ghosts. They would not be dominated by the Scepter of Orr, which was designed by the Seers to defend against threats from the Mists - threats like Nightmares and other wandering souls and demons.

If the Orrians were as powerful as you claim, why didn't they end the Third Guild War within a generation? Why didn't they just mop the floor with Kryta and Ascalon immediately?

Your own argument is a fallacy. If they were as strong as you claim, to be able to push back the charr, then they would have.  They would have wiped out the Ascalonians and Krytans who barely held against the charr - or didn't. If King Reza was some superhuman capable of commanding entire enemy armies as you claim, then he should have been able to make Ascalon and Kryta and all the guilds submit just by a wave of his staff.

But they didn't. He didn't. Because they couldn't. They were a peaceful nation. They had a standing army, but not supreme military force.

There is a difference between having high magic, and having high combat ready magic and individuals.

There is a difference between owning a tool, and knowing how to use it, let alone using it.

There is a difference between "made strong by an Elder Dragon's corruption" and "was strong before corruption".

It is reliable.

Especially one thing can prove it:

Most of the Orrians were dead in Cataclysm, if they were split out and couldn't go back, we would see a lot of Orrian ppl around GW1 since they would have escaped the fate, but no.  Most of them are dead, which means they were at Orr.

If they are using dragon magic, then you are right, but no, the priests mostly use god magic, which Zhaitan has none.

The White Mantle got monk magic, double on undead.

It's a very powerful weapon and just ONE of the many, which means the Orrians got strong combat magic which they could even make spectral weapons. No, they were corrupted, If Zhaitan got such magic to animate, why didn't he animate all other weapons?

Yeah, everyone has, but obviously the Orrian ppl, the high priests got the biggest potion from them, plus the Source magic. If Magdaer could be used to make foefire, same could Orrian magic.

No, it's clear that the Charr only planned to use it when the Cataclysm happened.

Actually what you used was unreliable, Traheane wasn't sure himself. We can also see that Reza was the leader among the kings after freed.

The Orrians didn't try to kill off ppl, they wanted to ensure peace.

They do know how to use god magic to fight.

They obviously knew how to use it.

The priests don't use dragon magic, but divine magic. Zhaitan don't control it.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Do... do you not know how wars are stopped?

You stop them by winning them. Or losing them. Not prolonging them.

It's a lot different when you don't aim to kill or conquer, but stop it.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

4 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

False human belief. Magic spells in GW1 were the same as any other race's magic spell. The magic comes from the Bloodstone which was made by the Seers, created to house Tyria's ambient magic before the Elder Dragons could consume it.

A lot of magic also came from the Elder Dragons themselves, seeped back into the ley-lines. Zhaitan's presence is why Arah was so magical. The oh-so-powerful spellcasters you claim exist only could because Zhaitan slept under their feet. They were tapping into Zhaitan's magical sweat, not the gods' own personal power.

Just how the charr tapped into Kralkatorrik, and the asura tapped into Primordus.

The humans got their magic from it.

Zhaitan also only got certain level of magic, mostly death and shadow, he never showed ability to master other elements, especially life and air power.

No, the Source of Orr was where Arah's magic come from, even Zhaitan had to rely on it to corrupt.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 minute ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Most of the Orrians were dead in Cataclysm, if they were split out and couldn't go back, we would see a lot of Orrian ppl around GW1 since they would have escaped the fate, but no.  Most of them are dead, which means they were at Orr.

Handful of guilds and other survivors were around. The guilds of each nation were not the majority of the population at all.

Also, seriously, "God magic" isn't a thing. A priestess of Lyssa is merely a more experienced and powerful mesmer then any other mesmer. They do not have special powers from Lyssa. They may know more obscure rituals or specific things to unlock Lyssa related vaults, but it's not "Lyssa has given this mesmer special powers" at all. I think you need to go back and re-examine the lore and get a better understanding of it.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

4 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Handful of guilds and other survivors were around. The guilds of each nation were not the majority of the population at all.

Also, seriously, "God magic" isn't a thing. A priestess of Lyssa is merely a more experienced and powerful mesmer then any other mesmer. They do not have special powers from Lyssa. They may know more obscure rituals or specific things to unlock Lyssa related vaults, but it's not "Lyssa has given this mesmer special powers" at all. I think you need to go back and re-examine the lore and get a better understanding of it.

Where? We saw in game very few ppl came from Orr. And most of the knowledge of Orr were lost.

They do, Lyssa gave them such power, the humans got their magic from the gods.

They may know more obscure rituals or specific things, and special magic to fight foes, like many skills in GW with the name of human gods.

Also Zhaitan, along with all other dragons, were created to split out magic, it didn't have all the magic in its control, mostly focus on death and shadow.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Trejgon.9367]

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Orrian army was surely stronger than Saul's buddies.

And they got very powerful casters.

And Saul's buddies were not the force that stopped the considerable smaller charr force, Mursaat did it.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

12 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

And Saul's buddies were not the force that stopped the considerable smaller charr force, Mursaat did it.

And Orr got a lot of powerful spellcasters, artifacts, plus The Artesian Waters.

Magdaer also showed that how powerful the gods' magic is.

Also it's not smaller, it would wipe out the whole Kryta if not for the Mursaat.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

7 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

And Saul's buddies were not the force that stopped the considerable smaller charr force, Mursaat did it.

his view of the lore is incredibly twisted. I don't really know the angle he's going at, maybe powerscaling? But war has so many more contexts.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Just now, Kalavier.1097 said:

his view of the lore is incredibly twisted. I don't really know the angle he's going at, maybe powerscaling? But war has so many more contexts.

Also Magdaer showed how powerful the gods' magic can be.

Kryta won it in a bad condition purely due to magic. The charr could break through also because of magic. They were driven off due to magic as well.

[Trejgon.9367]

4 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

his view of the lore is incredibly twisted. I don't really know the angle he's going at, maybe powerscaling? But war has so many more contexts.

Yeah at this point it is very clear to me that this is that established world history clashes with OP's perception of the Kingdom of Orr, which notably strays from how lore represents it.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also Magdaer showed how powerful the gods' magic can be.

Kryta won it in a bad condition purely due to magic. The charr could break through also because of magic. They were driven off due to magic as well.

Ah yes, because eternally cursing a nation to be ghosts is a thing that is good.

Also Orr didn't have Magdaer or it's twin blade, which  was just a regular sword until it's presence directly near Balthazar empowered it beyond normal levels.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Just now, Kalavier.1097 said:

Ah yes, because eternally cursing a nation to be ghosts is a thing that is good.

Also Orr didn't have Magdaer or it's twin blade, which  was just a regular sword until it's presence directly near Balthazar empowered it beyond normal levels.

It just showed the power.

Even Magdaer was from Orr actually. They got such magic and surely could do a lot with it.

Quote

His Majesty bears on his hip a mighty blade, a relic of now-lost Orr and its City of the Gods

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It is reliable.

Especially one thing can prove it:

Most of the Orrians were dead in Cataclysm, if they were split out and couldn't go back, we would see a lot of Orrian ppl around GW1 since they would have escaped the fate, but no.  Most of them are dead, which means they were at Orr.

Most, yes, but there were enough for Orrians to continue a pure lineage down to GW2, as we see with one particular scholar in Malchor's Leap, and as per dev comments. But most Orrians hide their lineage because of the stigma of two undead forces coming out of the place.

So your claim of proof is in fact false. Many Orrians did survive.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

If they are using dragon magic, then you are right, but no, the priests mostly use god magic, which Zhaitan has none.

Risen use the magic from when they were living. This isn't god magic. This is just Tyrian magic. Run of the mill Tyrian magic that any species has access to.

The only god magic remaining in Orr is in the statues, which is notably not used by risen except to activate the statues. Which shows that Orrians could not use divine magic despite your claims - and the statues are easily avoidable.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The White Mantle got monk magic, double on undead.

Monk magic isn't god magic, it's Tyrian magic. Specifically coming from Soo-Won's life domain.

And even then, Orrians never tapped directly into it - by all indication, Orrians didn't know it existed.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It's a very powerful weapon and just ONE of the many, which means the Orrians got strong combat magic which they could even make spectral weapons. No, they were corrupted, If Zhaitan got such magic to animate, why didn't he animate all other weapons?

It is not very powerful, it is merely very special. Legendary weapon != powerful weapon. Legendary weapon == famous or unique weapon.

The Claw of the Khan-Ur is a legendary weapon. That was wielded by the charr. By your argument, that means the charr had massive advantage.

Sharur is the only spectral weapon that became a "legendary weapon" and only because it held benign dragon corruption. It's no more special than Mawdrey, and less special than Caladbolg.

If the spectral weapons were as all powerful as you suggest, the very fact Zhaitan got to animate so many of them would have resulted in the Pact being wiped out.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Yeah, everyone has, but obviously the Orrian ppl, the high priests got the biggest potion from them, plus the Source magic. If Magdaer could be used to make foefire, same could Orrian magic.

Magdaer was a weapon personally forged by Balthazar. The magic your average Orrian wielded is just Tyrian magic that literally any human (and non-human) could wield, it was not  personally gifted magic from the god themselves.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, it's clear that the Charr only planned to use it when the Cataclysm happened.

Proof? If it is clear, then there must be clear proof about it.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Actually what you used was unreliable, Traheane wasn't sure himself. We can also see that Reza was the leader among the kings after freed.

Nothing in Siren's Landing shows that Reza is leading the kings, actually. They all appear to be working independently for the same goal, in fact. And even then, strongest != leader.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The Orrians didn't try to kill off ppl, they wanted to ensure peace.

They do know how to use god magic to fight.

They obviously knew how to use it.

The priests don't use dragon magic, but divine magic. Zhaitan don't control it.

The worst way to ensure peace is by elongating conflict. So if they wanted to ensure peace (and nothing you quoted says such, just that they "rose to defend themselves" which means they were playing a primarily defensive game) they would have won the war, not let it go on for multiple generations.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They do know how to use god magic to fight.

They obviously knew how to use it.

The priests don't use dragon magic, but divine magic. Zhaitan don't control it.

Source? Risen priests don't count, because they're only fighting because of Zhaitan's control and command. And even then, they're just doing the equivalent of "flail around hard enough and maybe you'll hit something." Something with notable high failure rates.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They obviously knew how to use it.

Source on the "fact" that Orrians "obviously" knew how to use the Scepter of Orr?

Because even Khilbron didn't know it could control the titans, and his claim of it controlling the undead seems like an obvious farce to cover how he already could.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The humans got their magic from it.

Zhaitan also only got certain level of magic, mostly death and shadow, he never showed ability to master other elements, especially life and air power.

No, the Source of Orr was where Arah's magic come from, even Zhaitan had to rely on it to corrupt.

Where do you think the Artesian Waters got its magic from?

From Zhaitan leaking it out. Every Elder Dragon had a heavy concentration of magic nearby it - a ley-line hub that formed as the magic leaked out from Elder Dragon to ley-lines, which are the paths of least resistance for magic to flow. For Zhaitan, this hub was at +the Artesian Waters.

Elder Dragons consume ley-lines - that's the mixture of all magic. Season 4 onward showed that the Elder Dragons are imperfect filters, and thus could only use their own domain of magic. If they get a high concentration of not-theirs magic, they can use that - for a time - but as shown with Primordus in IBS, that magic will eventually be filtered and they only get to use their own domain again. But when they leak out magic, they leak out ley-lines - again, the combination of all magic.

By your argument, the asura shouldn't have been capable of powering their asura gate network from Primordus because Primordus only has fire and destruction magic. Neither of those involve portals. But we know for an absolute fact that the asura powered their portal network from magic leaking out of Primordus. Ergo, your argument that the Elder Dragons only leak out their specific domain is false.

  

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It just showed the power.

Even Magdaer was from Orr actually. They got such magic and surely could do a lot with it.

Gifted to Ascalon by Orrians != Orrians have other things on par. It was Balthazar's personal blade, as confirmed by devs around PoF launch. Orrians did not have such magic themselves, they only had a handful of relics, and the only one they kept was the Scepter of Orr, which has wildly different abilities and is not made by the gods, but the Seers as revealed in SotO.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086
Reduced some redundancy, expanded some points

[Slowpokeking.8720]

39 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Most, yes, but there were enough for Orrians to continue a pure lineage down to GW2, as we see with one particular scholar in Malchor's Leap, and as per dev comments. But most Orrians hide their lineage because of the stigma of two undead forces coming out of the place.

So your claim of proof is in fact false. Many Orrians did survive.

Risen use the magic from when they were living. This isn't god magic. This is just Tyrian magic. Run of the mill Tyrian magic that any species has access to.

The only god magic remaining in Orr is in the statues, which is notably not used by risen.

Monk magic isn't god magic, it's Tyrian magic. Specifically coming from Soo-Won's life domain.

And even then, Orrians never tapped directly into it - by all indication, Orrians didn't know it existed.

It is not very powerful, it is merely very special. Legendary weapon != powerful weapon. Legendary weapon == famous or unique weapon.

The Claw of the Khan-Ur is a legendary weapon. That was wielded by the charr. By your argument, that means the charr had massive advantage.

Sharur is the only spectral weapon that became a "legendary weapon" and only because it held benign dragon corruption. It's no more special than Mawdrey, and less special than Caladbolg.

If the spectral weapons were as all powerful as you suggest, the very fact Zhaitan got to animate so many of them would have resulted in the Pact being wiped out.

Magdaer was a weapon personally forged by Balthazar. The magic your average Orrian wielded is just Tyrian magic that literally any human (and non-human) could wield, it was not  personally gifted magic from the god themselves.

Proof? If it is clear, then there must be clear proof about it.

Nothing in Siren's Landing shows that Reza is leading the kings, actually. They all appear to be working independently for the same goal, in fact. And even then, strongest != leader.

The worst way to ensure peace is by elongating conflict. So if they wanted to ensure peace (and nothing you quoted says such, just that they "rose to defend themselves" which means they were playing a primarily defensive game) they would have won the war, not let it go on for multiple generations.

Source? Risen priests don't count, because they're only fighting because of Zhaitan's control and command. And even then, they're just doing the equivalent of "flail around hard enough and maybe you'll hit something."

Source on the "fact" that Orrians obviously know how to use the Scepter of Orr?

The priests use Tyrian magic, not divine magic.

Where do you think the Artesian Waters got its magic from?

From Zhaitan leaking it out. Every Elder Dragon had a heavy concentration of magic nearby it - a ley-line hub that formed as the magic leaked out from Elder Dragon to ley-lines, which are the paths of least resistance for magic to flow. For Zhaitan, this hub was at +the Artesian Waters.

Elder Dragons consume ley-lines - that's the mixture of all magic. Season 4 onward showed that the Elder Dragons are imperfect filters, and thus could only use their own domain of magic. If they get a high concentration of not-theirs magic, they can use that - for a time - but as shown with Primordus in IBS, that magic will eventually be filtered and they only get to use their own domain again. But when they leak out magic, they leak out ley-lines - again, the combination of all magic.

By your argument, the asura shouldn't have been capable of powering their asura gate network from Primordus because Primordus only has fire and destruction magic. Neither of those involve portals. But we know for an absolute fact that the asura powered their portal network from magic leaking out of Primordus. Ergo, your argument that the Elder Dragons only leak out their specific domain is false.

Few survived Cataclysm, no Orrian army, no Orrian factions in GW1.

Proof? Where is your "Many Orrian" in GW1? We got all the NPC count, tell us, where was the Orrian army that couldn't go back. Where were they during the war of Ascalon or Kryta?  Which city or outpost were they?

Nobody denied that there are survivors, but obviously most of them were at Orr.

It is god magic, given and taught by the gods. Even in GW2, humans have specific magic skills from the gods.

I was talking about White Mantles got monk magic, not Orrian.

How is it not powerful when it's legendary weapon? And it's only one of the Orrian's magic items.

Again the Pact got all 5 races's magic, technology research, they are much stronger than the char invaders.

Reza was the one who welcomed you in the story. Also before he was released, none of ghosts had shown up, it must be his magic who helped them get out.

Magdaer was using gods' power, and the priests' power also came from the gods. They are priests, their power came from the gods.

It said they planned to sear the land when cataclysm happened, which means no, Orrian lands were not seared as well.

That's what they did, try to establish peace without conquer or too much kill.

Again Zhaitan cannot use god magic, it means that the human priests are powerful already. Not to say other casters. Also they even could make weapons out of it.

It is divine magic, it was given by their gods, why isn't it god magic?

Nowhere said it came from Zhaitan,  you even regrow Caladbolg from it. It has the magic of life as well, also could reverse Zhaitan's magic. If it came from Zhaitan, why would it be able to counter it's magic and bring life? And Zhaitan could only corrupt and feed on it instead of devour it back. Obviously it's a powerful magic source and fountain.

It's there due to the leyline hub, not from Zhaitan. If possible, it probably attracted Zhaitan to that place before it fell into sleep.

And it's clear that Zhaitan and other Elder Dragons have limit on magic, especially before devouring other dragon's magic.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Proof? Where is your "Many Orrian" in GW1? We got all the NPC count, tell us, where was the Orrian army that couldn't go back. Where were they during the war of Ascalon or Kryta?  Which city or outpost were they?

If you really think that we see every single NPC in existence in game, you're horribly mistaken.

Because if so, where are Researcher Nethry's ancestors who survived the Cataclysm?

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

I was talking about White Mantles got monk magic, not Orrian.

Monk magic is monk magic regardless of who's using it. Orrian magic wasn't any more special than Krytan or Ascalonian. It's all Tyrian magic despite your consistent persistence without proof supporting it.

Your priests you keep insisting use god magic, don't use god magic. They use Tyrian magic - the same magic any run o the mill monk, elementalist, mesmer, necromancer, etc. would use.

And it is not divine magic nor god magic because it was NOT given by the gods. Humans falsely believed that the gods granted magic, when all they did was release magic from the Bloodstone created by the Seers. The magic gifted was Tyria's natural magic, not the god's. Only three things remaining in the world of Tyria contain god magic as far as we players know: certain ancient statues of the Six, which cannot be tapped into beyond activation; Magdaer; and Sohothin.

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

How is it not powerful when it's legendary weapon? And it's only one of the Orrian's magic items.

If you read up on your raid lore you'd know that every legendary gear is a replica forged by Zomorros in the Mythwright Cauldron. This is what makes them "legendary" - not because they're super powerful, but because they have attributes specific to things forged in the Mythwright Cauldron.

The original Claw of the Khan-Ur, which I now promote twice, was just a normal but famous weapon. Sharur is no different - a normal but famous weapon. Neither have super special magical abilities. Magdaer and Sohothin are beyond legendary weapons.

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Reza was the one who welcomed you in the story. Also before he was released, none of ghosts had shown up, it must be his magic who helped them get out.

That... is such a huge, massive, stretch that you could fit the entire Grand Canyon inside of it.

 

I think we're done here.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Slowpokeking.8720]

10 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

If you really think that we see every single NPC in existence in game, you're horribly mistaken.

Because if so, where are Researcher Nethry's ancestors who survived the Cataclysm?

Monk magic is monk magic regardless of who's using it. Orrian magic wasn't any more special than Krytan or Ascalonian. It's all Tyrian magic despite your consistent persistence without proof supporting it.

Your priests you keep insisting use god magic, don't use god magic. They use Tyrian magic - the same magic any run o the mill monk, elementalist, mesmer, necromancer, etc. would use.

If you read up on your raid lore you'd know that every legendary gear is a replica forged by Zomorros in the Mythwright Cauldron. This is what makes them "legendary" - not because they're super powerful, but because they have attributes specific to things forged in the Mythwright Cauldron.

The original Claw of the Khan-Ur, which I now promote twice, was just a normal but famous weapon. Sharur is no different - a normal but famous weapon. Neither have super special magical abilities. Magdaer and Sohothin are beyond legendary weapons.

That... is such a huge, massive, stretch that you could fit the entire Grand Canyon inside of it.

 

I think we're done here.

So there is no proof at all

Again there are survivors, even the part had said. But saying the majority of the Orrian forces were not there, it's a big no no because the game will surely show such a powerful military existence, they would also play a big role in the story as well.

So even with monk magic, the undead could still cause trouble to the White Mantle, which means Orrian armies were pretty strong as it stated.

It is god magic, the gods gave them such power. The priests' power came from their gods. Like summon hounds is obviously Balthzar's power.

It is because they are powerful, otherwise why do they make it? Also it's not one or two, but many many spectral weapons around Orr. We don't the Claws everywhere.

Magader is powerful because it got god magic, and the priests also got such power. Even Magdaer was from Orr.

He said he is the most powerful of them all, you were the one who tried to refer it to Zhaitan's power without real proof but some dialogue which even the speaker was not sure about.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Also the priests even said it so

Risen Priestess of Dwayna: The power of the goddess flows through me. You shall die!

 

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

How is it not powerful when it's legendary weapon? And it's only one of the Orrian's magic items.

You do understand that legendary weapons are often just... unique or have great story? Having a shield with a quaggan baby in it doesn't make you the most powerful warrior around. Sharur's description is just that it's a spectral hammer that was at the source of Orr, and it's corruption is benign and couldn't be fully cleansed. Pharus, another Orrian legendary weapon simply unsummons itself when not used by a hero and returns to the reliquary. Neither weapon are implied to be incredibly powerful or capable of changing wars, they are just highly unique.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

If you really think that we see every single NPC in existence in game, you're horribly mistaken.

Because if so, where are Researcher Nethry's ancestors who survived the Cataclysm?

Also Suriel the Blazing Light, whose family line is Orrian. Pretty sure GW1 had Orrian living npcs besides the Vizier as well.

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also the priests even said it so

Risen Priestess of Dwayna: The power of the goddess flows through me. You shall die!

 

Ah yes, the Risen Priestess being controlled by Zhaitan. You know, the Priestess and Priests who all make outright lying statements including "Zhaitan devoured the gods"

Aka, complete nonsense meant purely to demoralize the attacking forces of the pact.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/20/2023 at 4:31 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Handful of guilds and other survivors were around. The guilds of each nation were not the majority of the population at all.

Also, seriously, "God magic" isn't a thing. A priestess of Lyssa is merely a more experienced and powerful mesmer then any other mesmer. They do not have special powers from Lyssa. They may know more obscure rituals or specific things to unlock Lyssa related vaults, but it's not "Lyssa has given this mesmer special powers" at all. I think you need to go back and re-examine the lore and get a better understanding of it.

Strictly speaking, it is. Avatars are god magic (ArenaNet was mostly careful to only give avatars to enemies that were human and/or connected to the gods in some fashion, and in MOX's case, it was explained as not actually being avatars but MOX having some form of multifunctional core and the 'avatars' were actually different modes of operation), and human racial skills are tapping into the power of the gods that lingers in humans. There's also divine fire, although it wouldn't surprise me if that gets retconned to be something more directly related to the Forgotten than the gods. However, human racial skills also demonstrate the broad maximum power level that humans can tap into... and conventional magic has more potential overall.

And we also see clear indications that Risen are able to tap into these powers as well as living humans are, so the claim that the living Orrians were stronger than the Risen due to having access to god magic is patently false. What we see is at or above what those individuals were likely capable of achieving in life, and Zhaitan was likely able to cherrypick the most powerful spellcasters in Orr's history - apart from Reza and a couple of others that were called out as having been there at that time, there is no guarantee that any of the Risen spellcasters we fight were alive at the time of the Cataclysm. Heck, even if they were, they probably weren't part of the army - the reason the army left the city to fight outside seems to be that the Orrians wanted to stop the charr before they were close enough to use the Cauldrons, so those that fought the charr would have died somewhere on the route and might not have been in a place where Zhaitan was able to collect them.