Change My Mind: Nearly All Shadowsteps/Teleports Should Require Target

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Since mobility is through the roof in the game now, trying to think of a good reason to keep ground-targeted shadowsteps / teleports around?

Some professions like thief have ground target skill that has always been part of the mechanic with literal Shadowstep skill, but the disparity between classes and skills that need target and do not is pretty wide and random.  

Are there actual use cases for ground targets outside PvE skips / WvW exploits, running endlessly up vertical walls in WvW / SPvP, etc.?

[Jobber.6348]

Exploits need to be fixed, doesn't mean ground targeted teleports need to have their utility shaved just because Anet doesn't fix the exploits. This sounds like an exploit problem than ground targeted teleports actually being a problem. 

Sure some classes need less mobility, but this doesn't mean haha lets make your skill usage tedious in order to indirectly nerf you. Philosophy like that is what causes gameplay clunkiness just to annoy the player into behaving less optimal. Ridiculous. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Sure some classes need less mobility, but this doesn't mean haha lets make your skill usage tedious in order to indirectly nerf you. Philosophy like that is what causes gameplay clunkiness just to annoy the player into behaving less optimal. Ridiculous. 

Sounds like a crutch, no?

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Are there actual use cases for ground targets outside PvE skips / WvW exploits, running endlessly up vertical walls in WvW / SPvP, etc.?

Strategic positioning.

• Ground targeted shadowstep offer controled flexibility (it move you exactly where you want to be) at the expense of some quality of life (It's can be tedious and time consuming to move your cursor where you need to be, creating a momentary weakness in the flow of your gameplay).
• Shadowstep tied to a targeted foe are reactive and simple to use but offer very limited range of strategic use and can be risky to use in some environment (especially the skills that make you shadowstep away from your target).

Personally I do think that there is room for both kind of shadowstep/teleport.

[Jobber.6348]

34 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Sounds like a crutch, no?

Bro you literally talking about gutting skill functionality and wanna talk about crutches. You're really funny. 
If your issue is people being too mobile, you would call for their movement tools to be nerfed or removed. It's clear you are more fighting exploits via targeted teleports, which I say to you it's the wrong thing to attack. Exploits problem = fix the exploits. 

 

Who on earth cures a headache for example by shooting someone in the foot and tell them to concentrate on the pain in their leg instead? 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Panda.1967]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Are there actual use cases for ground targets outside PvE skips / WvW exploits, running endlessly up vertical walls in WvW / SPvP, etc.?

Ranged builds. Foe Targeted teleports are only useful to Melee builds, ranged builds need to freedom to teleport to open spaces. Use some common sense before you make more senseless claims like this.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Panda.1967 said:

Ranged builds. Foe Targeted teleports are only useful to Melee builds, ranged builds need to freedom to teleport to open spaces.

What ranged builds though? What's difference between deadeye that also carries dagger and untamed that uses LB/GS? Why is one skill ground target and the other actual target when both classes have additional mitigation in form of mobility and stealth? 

Additionally, why does Willbender have both an actual target in JI and a ground target in Crashing Courage? On a spec with super mobility that is typically only melee--this goes against 'ranged builds need it, but melee does not', correct?

9 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Bro you literally talking about gutting skill functionality

Skill functionality for who? Because, as listed above it is nowhere near standardized.  

Since you are so hardline to skill functionality and flow, what if all classes had ground target shadowsteps/teleports? As practically every class now has a shadowstep type skill with exception of I think warrior?

Edited November 20, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Beddo.1907]

Mobility is getting out of control, but I think changing functionality is not the way to go. Mobility should get re-evaluated and adjusted to increase the trade-offs instead. If you want to zoom across the map, you shouldn't be able to do the same dps as an immobile build.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

21 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Since mobility is through the roof in the game now, trying to think of a good reason to keep ground-targeted shadowsteps / teleports around?

Some professions like thief have ground target skill that has always been part of the mechanic with literal Shadowstep skill, but the disparity between classes and skills that need target and do not is pretty wide and random.  

Are there actual use cases for ground targets outside PvE skips / WvW exploits, running endlessly up vertical walls in WvW / SPvP, etc.?

It's not random at all. It makes sense in several cases. For necromancers and guardians, maybe rangers to a lesser extent, they mostly have target-bound shadowsteps, because they use lifeforce/spirit magic and need some kind of spiritual anchor to direct their teleport. Thieves use shadow magic, and mesmers literally manipulate space and time. It would be silly to bind them to targets. "Space" is the target for mesmers. Revenants have both, cuz Mists. It would be cool if necromancers had a skill that shadowstepped them to a corpse or minion though.

[Jobber.6348]

5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

6 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Ranged builds. Foe Targeted teleports are only useful to Melee builds, ranged builds need to freedom to teleport to open spaces.

What ranged builds though? What's difference between deadeye that also carries dagger and untamed that uses LB/GS? Why is one skill ground target and the other actual target when both classes have additional mitigation in form of mobility and stealth? 

Additionally, why does Willbender have both an actual target in JI and a ground target in Crashing Courage? On a spec with super mobility that is typically only melee--this goes against 'ranged builds need it, but melee does not', correct?

14 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Bro you literally talking about gutting skill functionality

Skill functionality for who? Because, as listed above it is nowhere near standardized.  

Since you are so hardline to skill functionality and flow, what if all classes had ground target shadowsteps/teleports? As practically every class now has a shadowstep type skill with exception of I think warrior?

If all classes changed Shadowsteps to ground targeted ones, Shadowstepping around walls or up a flight of stairs via targeted Shadowsteps would cease to exist.

 

This will seriously change up, even hurt, classes that rely on quick engages in PvP like Thief, Willbender and Shiro Revenant. 

On the flipside, if you want Weaver doing targeted Lightning Flash while charging  Earth Dagger 5 through a wall, I'm cool with it too. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Not all teleport needs to have a target. But teleports should not allow you to go to places where your character wouldnt be able to go if he goes in a straight line. How many time have I abused teleport in WvW where I can just harass someone and if things get rough I can aim at a ledge and go away. There are so many skips and exploit that Anet doesnt want to fix. 

Then we have to look at what class are we dealing with. Mechanist for instance has one teleport on a sign that's overloaded but no one complain about Mechanist teleport in PvP/WvW (except the bad one of course ) because Mechanist itself is trash and anyone can beat it with the bare minimum of game knowledge. It also has quite a long CD of 40 sec. But compare that to thief shadowstep where it's 50 sec but you effectively gets 2 teleports with both being stunbreaker and the teleport back also removing condition. Shadowstep on a class that has plenty of invisibility and mobility. 

Guardian used to be a class with low mobility but look at Willbender and how disgusting it is mobility wise and yet the class is mostly made of targetted teleport.

 

What needs to be looked at isnt just teleport itself. Teleport is half the problem, the other half is the overabundance of it on classes that doesnt really need them. Hell I'm still baffled how for a long time people screamed at Scrapper for having a lot of superspeed but those same people are totally fine with Willbender or Thief being able to harass someone 3k unit away and then go back to their starting point with next to no penalty. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

If all classes changed Shadowsteps to ground targeted ones, Shadowstepping around walls or up a flight of stairs via targeted Shadowsteps would cease to exist.

Which...is a good thing, no?

For instance, the reason teleburst Untamed was nerfed is this exact reason, could queue up a Maul through a wall and burst.  I'd much rather change that to a targeted ground rather than the animation nerf it currently has.  

50 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

What needs to be looked at isnt just teleport itself. Teleport is half the problem, the other half is the overabundance of it on classes that doesnt really need them.

This is true as well--classes were balanced at one point around certain mechanics that have been all but thrown out the window.  

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

Honestly an easy fix would be to introduce a new non-damaging condition or new state of CC called Anchored.

What Anchored should do is one of 2 things.

Option 1 -Non Condition Route

Disable the ability to use any mobility for that set of duration, can be cleansed which means resources have to be used here in order to use condition.

(this would require skill to ether time a good application this non-condition skill when the opponent wasted all their cleanses)

OR

Option 2 - New state of CC

If  opponent used a mobility skill,  <insert effect here>

(in simpler term if option 2 was used, they would able to use mobility skill but consequently force to take on an de-buff which can be multitude of things, it could stun maybe? it could temporary disable all mobility skill for a set amount of time, it may even warp them back to their original position for the mobility or some similar effects. Regardless of the effect, this can be simply easily avoid with a "stun break" skill )

 

Both option provide a way to apply it and still have things counter it in some sense, essentially enable the whole idea of cycle of solving the issue. It just simply comes down to paying attention and timing the application.

 

Regardless, I'm not ANET  nor the Balance team but I do feel that mobility is starting to get out of control and it not specifically toward thieves or will bender. Ranger, warriors and even engineers can kinda get ridiculous with their mobility as well, I can testify for Ranger because I play generally all the specs for that class.

[Jobber.6348]

11 hours ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Honestly an easy fix would be to introduce a new non-damaging condition or new state of CC called Anchored.

What Anchored should do is one of 2 things.

Option 1 -Non Condition Route

Disable the ability to use any mobility for that set of duration, can be cleansed which means resources have to be used here in order to use condition.

(this would require skill to ether time a good application this non-condition skill when the opponent wasted all their cleanses)

OR

Option 2 - New state of CC

If  opponent used a mobility skill,  <insert effect here>

(in simpler term if option 2 was used, they would able to use mobility skill but consequently force to take on an de-buff which can be multitude of things, it could stun maybe? it could temporary disable all mobility skill for a set amount of time, it may even warp them back to their original position for the mobility or some similar effects. Regardless of the effect, this can be simply easily avoid with a "stun break" skill )

 

Both option provide a way to apply it and still have things counter it in some sense, essentially enable the whole idea of cycle of solving the issue. It just simply comes down to paying attention and timing the application.

 

Regardless, I'm not ANET  nor the Balance team but I do feel that mobility is starting to get out of control and it not specifically toward thieves or will bender. Ranger, warriors and even engineers can kinda get ridiculous with their mobility as well, I can testify for Ranger because I play generally all the specs for that class.

We already do have something like what you described with looser and wider implications, it's called Daze which will interrupt and cancel, sometimes even put into cooldown, skills that are cast while Dazed. It's a form of soft CC which is as disabling as a Stun, but still allows the player to move around, just not cast skills. 

We do not need more new conditions and what not, and every class has the ability to Daze or Stun, just that alot of people don't use it or even care to have it slotted. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

11 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

We already do have something like what you described with looser and wider implications, it's called Daze which will interrupt and cancel, sometimes even put into cooldown, skills that are cast while Dazed. It's a form of soft CC which is as disabling as a Stun, but still allows the player to move around, just not cast skills. 

We do not need more new conditions and what not, and every class has the ability to Daze or Stun, just that alot of people don't use it or even care to have it slotted. 

Mobility is still and extremely issue in the game and its not unrealistic for ANET to resolve it in some form, at least in past history they have introduced new conditions and boon or changed them consistently from their original state, whats stopping them from introducing a new condition that prevent the use of mobility? Sure daze can prevent someone using a skill however it not something that easily be used to deal with mobility, its not the golden answer to this problem, its like trying to mine obsidian with a stone pickaxes, it possible to pull it off but its not worth the effort. Every classes dazes are design different, some are just better than others and some kinda useless when classes have a mobility with a built in stun-break.  I personally don't have a problem with mobility at all in the game, I just think its over inflated and breaking the game integrity in design and I can see why people have issue with over-inflated mobility. 

I don't mind when Will-bender run off to the moon, but my god with the ability on their elites to get its f1 to f3 mobility back + off-hand sword can kinda be ridiculously in some sense. Soul-beast can now staff + bird swoop + Great-sword swoop + the trait that reduces the CD of your first skill by 66% which can give you and extra dash to the point people just give up the chase. I keep listing every single class's  method of running away/dodging/chasing potential, it doesn't change the fact that mobility in the game is a big issue. I don't want to eliminate mobility we currently have but I want an new answer that can deal with them accordingly to balance the abundance of mobility in the game. 

 

The question come down to, are we going to keep inflating different classes with more mobility in the game where at some point its going turn into a cat and mouse game, or are we going to tone it down a bit or find some other resolution to the issue.  Again, the 2 option that I offered are idea's to deal with mobility in fair way, its a not concrete design.  Otherwise we can just runs group of Mesmer 1200 Mantra of Distraction, get every sources of modifier to increase Daze duration and lock down every single mobility class like it's nothing, that's what people are currently doing to deal with mobility, it not healthy game design in the slightest.

 

[Jobber.6348]

13 minutes ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Mobility is still and extremely issue in the game and its not unrealistic for ANET to resolve it in some form, at least in past history they have introduced new conditions and boon or changed them consistently from their original state, whats stopping them from introducing a new condition that prevent the use of mobility? Sure daze can prevent someone using a skill however it not something that easily be used to deal with mobility, its not the golden answer to this problem, its like trying to mine obsidian with a stone pickaxes, it possible to pull it off but its not worth the effort. Every classes dazes are design different, some are just better than others and some kinda useless when classes have a mobility with a built in stun-break.  I personally don't have a problem with mobility at all in the game, I just think its over inflated and breaking the game integrity in design and I can see why people have issue with over-inflated mobility. 

I don't mind when Will-bender run off to the moon, but my god with the ability on their elites to get its f1 to f3 mobility back + off-hand sword can kinda be ridiculously in some sense. Soul-beast can now staff + bird swoop + Great-sword swoop + the trait that reduces the CD of your first skill by 66% which can give you and extra dash to the point people just give up the chase. I keep listing every single class's  method of running away/dodging/chasing potential, it doesn't change the fact that mobility in the game is a big issue. I don't want to eliminate mobility we currently have but I want an new answer that can deal with them accordingly to balance the abundance of mobility in the game. 

 

The question come down to, are we going to keep inflating different classes with more mobility in the game where at some point its going turn into a cat and mouse game, or are we going to tone it down a bit or find some other resolution to the issue.  Again, the 2 option that I offered are idea's to deal with mobility in fair way, its a not concrete design.  Otherwise we can just runs group of Mesmer 1200 Mantra of Distraction, get every sources of modifier to increase Daze duration and lock down every single mobility class like it's nothing, that's what people are currently doing to deal with mobility, it not healthy game design in the slightest.

 

You should make another topic regarding mobility creep. This topic if you read carefully is Ground Targeted teleports as the topic. As I've already mentioned: if the issue is too much mobility, why nerf function instead of nerfing the number of mobility options themselves. 

OP's subject here is ground targeted teleports used to exploit terrain, but disguising their argument as a "too much mobility" issue. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

OP's subject here is ground targeted teleports used to exploit terrain, but disguising their argument as a "too much mobility" issue. 

I think it's both--ground targets give unrealistic/uneven mobility, and yes, as a byproduct exploit terrain.  If you change those to target skills, you can easily fix the 'go through walls' bug and still retain skillful usage of a mobility skill.

It's the 'flow' argument I don't understand, as at what point is bypassing stairs, teleporting up vertical surfaces, or actual exploits like into towers/keeps in WvW 'flow'?

If it is flow, then they need to bake it into things like mechanist and ranger pets, maybe even necro minions (think mesmer clones teleport with the user?) because they have to do extra mechanics like pet swap/recall to get them up elevations, when they should be able to shadowstep to the user by default then.

28 minutes ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

The question come down to, are we going to keep inflating different classes with more mobility in the game where at some point its going turn into a cat and mouse game, or are we going to tone it down a bit or find some other resolution to the issue. 

Judging by the new weapon previews--the former.  Things like necro sword and mesmer portal gun are not going to decrease mobility, sadly.  

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

2 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

You should make another topic regarding mobility creep. This topic if you read carefully is Ground Targeted teleports as the topic. As I've already mentioned: if the issue is too much mobility, why nerf function instead of nerfing the number of mobility options themselves. 

OP's subject here is ground targeted teleports used to exploit terrain, but disguising their argument as a "too much mobility" issue. 

 

On 11/20/2023 at 6:12 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Mobility is getting out of control, but I think changing functionality is not the way to go. Mobility should get re-evaluated and adjusted to increase the trade-offs instead. If you want to zoom across the map, you shouldn't be able to do the same dps as an immobile build.

On 11/20/2023 at 8:42 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Not all teleport needs to have a target. But teleports should not allow you to go to places where your character wouldnt be able to go if he goes in a straight line. How many time have I abused teleport in WvW where I can just harass someone and if things get rough I can aim at a ledge and go away. There are so many skips and exploit that Anet doesnt want to fix. 

Then we have to look at what class are we dealing with. Mechanist for instance has one teleport on a sign that's overloaded but no one complain about Mechanist teleport in PvP/WvW (except the bad one of course ) because Mechanist itself is trash and anyone can beat it with the bare minimum of game knowledge. It also has quite a long CD of 40 sec. But compare that to thief shadowstep where it's 50 sec but you effectively gets 2 teleports with both being stunbreaker and the teleport back also removing condition. Shadowstep on a class that has plenty of invisibility and mobility. 

Guardian used to be a class with low mobility but look at Willbender and how disgusting it is mobility wise and yet the class is mostly made of targetted teleport.

 

What needs to be looked at isnt just teleport itself. Teleport is half the problem, the other half is the overabundance of it on classes that doesnt really need them. Hell I'm still baffled how for a long time people screamed at Scrapper for having a lot of superspeed but those same people are totally fine with Willbender or Thief being able to harass someone 3k unit away and then go back to their starting point with next to no penalty. 

On 11/20/2023 at 9:34 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

This is true as well--classes were balanced at one point around certain mechanics that have been all but thrown out the window.  

Its still a worth while response for people to think about on top of the current subject. Food for thought for as a side dish to the main course.  People have already brought it up before me, and even op stated it related, so its very relative to the topic if I say so myself.

1 minute ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think it's both--ground targets give unrealistic/uneven mobility, and yes, as a byproduct exploit terrain.  If you change those to target skills, you can easily fix the 'go through walls' bug and still retain skillful usage of a mobility skill.

It's the 'flow' argument I don't understand, as at what point is bypassing stairs, teleporting up vertical surfaces, or actual exploits like into towers/keeps in WvW 'flow'?

If it is flow, then they need to bake it into things like mechanist and ranger pets, maybe even necro minions (think mesmer clones teleport with the user?) because they have to do extra mechanics like pet swap/recall to get them up elevations, when they should be able to shadowstep to the user by default then.

Judging by the new weapon previews--the former.  Things like necro sword and mesmer portal gun are not going to decrease mobility, sadly.  

 

[Jobber.6348]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It's the 'flow' argument I don't understand, as at what point is bypassing stairs, teleporting up vertical surfaces, or actual exploits like into towers/keeps in WvW 'flow'?

You confuse functionality with what you call "flow" and what you consider exploits. 

Exploits are exploits. Those need to be patched.

Functionally, Shadowsteps will calculate a distance between player and target (or ground target) and displace the player for the set amount of units the skill allows toward the target in a linear fashion, as if you are just copy pasting your character into the direction of the target. The only prerequisite the game uses to allow the movement is if the player is able to reach the location via walking normally with 0 jumping and 0 weird movement tricks. That alone should be enough for most people understand what works and doesn't work with a Shadowstep. 

The "Flow" thing you mention make no sense when there is a perfectly logical understanding of how the shadowstep works: If I can walk it, I can teleport it. There is no cause for why this shouldn't be the case. The only disparity is "If I can't see it, but can't walk it, why can't I just teleport over" which is the mechanical disadvantage of a Shadowstep versus something like a Targeted Leap (things like Mallyx CTA or Engi Rifle Jump) or non targeted player displacement (warrior sword leap and ranger GS leap)

Edited November 22, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Gotejjeken.1267]

19 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

You confuse functionality with what you call "flow" and what you consider exploits. 

Exploits are exploits. Those need to be patched.

Functionally, Shadowsteps will calculate a distance between player and target (or ground target) and displace the player for the set amount of units the skill allows toward the target in a linear fashion, as if you are just copy pasting your character into the direction of the target. The only prerequisite the game uses to allow the movement is if the player is able to reach the location via walking normally with 0 jumping and 0 weird movement tricks. That alone should be enough for most people understand what works and doesn't work with a Shadowstep. 

So shadowsteps are only linear in your mind? As '0 jumping and 0 weird movement tricks' removes all elevation related movement. 

Or is the 'if I can walk it, I can teleport it' apply to elevation too because 'eventually' you can walk there (i.e. valid path to target location).  Ex: The 'oh man I'm downed or in danger on Khylo but let me use shadow return / teleport to port myself out of danger, bypass all stairs, and end up back mid'.  

The former to me would be fine, if you could only shadowstep forward/backward on linear surface (not through walls)--this is no different than movement skills such as ancestral grace on ranger staff, or I think Death's Advance on Deadeye (believe this is only forward moving to valid target area?).  

The verticals / teleports need to go, as no reason to bypass walls or stairs for any reason in the name of 'flow'.  This creates massive imbalances, such as Willbender being able to teleport up slopes with Crashing Courage, but Ranger having to have valid target with both teleports (UT and dagger ambush).  Or the aforementioned Khylo example which I encounter a lot with thieves as the map is mostly vertical and tailor made to bypass literally all of it as long as you have shadowstep ability.  

EDIT: I should clarify almost all verticals besides things like mesmer portal which take actual resources to use, and you know what's coming, or have a good idea.  Not sure how far that extends to things like thief portals and mesmer portal guns...but the original idea is one usage where vertical movement makes sense.  

Edited November 22, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

The only prerequisite the game uses to allow the movement is if the player is able to reach the location via walking normally with 0 jumping and 0 weird movement tricks. That alone should be enough for most people understand what works and doesn't work with a Shadowstep.

 

If that is the case then do you have an explanation as to why targeted teleportation can reach ledge in WvW ? Do you have an explanation why I can teleport below a bridge and attack someone and then go back up ? Because in both case it is true that there is a way to walk normally to the designated area. But there is a difference between walking in a straight line to the point and going on a detour to reach the said point. 

 

Just saying "if I can walk to it then I can teleport to it" is flawed for that exact reason. But if people are fine with it then allow me to extend that concept to other class then. Why rocket boot with Engineer doesnt allow me to gain a lot of height that I would be able to jump over bridge ? Why Rifle shot doesnt allow me to reach higher height while travelling ? Why Hammer Warrior F1 cannot gain height as well ? If in any of those case you say "because it would be OP" then it makes no sense an instant moving skill allows you to reach higher height without any drawback / penalty is allowed to stay as is. Just like stealth Anet doesnt clarify what their idea of teleportation should be and we end up with cases where one teleportation can skip height while another teleportation requires a direct unobstructed path to the target.

 

[Jobber.6348]

16 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

If that is the case then do you have an explanation as to why targeted teleportation can reach ledge in WvW ? Do you have an explanation why I can teleport below a bridge and attack someone and then go back up ? Because in both case it is true that there is a way to walk normally to the designated area. But there is a difference between walking in a straight line to the point and going on a detour to reach the said point. 

 

Just saying "if I can walk to it then I can teleport to it" is flawed for that exact reason. But if people are fine with it then allow me to extend that concept to other class then. Why rocket boot with Engineer doesnt allow me to gain a lot of height that I would be able to jump over bridge ? Why Rifle shot doesnt allow me to reach higher height while travelling ? Why Hammer Warrior F1 cannot gain height as well ? If in any of those case you say "because it would be OP" then it makes no sense an instant moving skill allows you to reach higher height without any drawback / penalty is allowed to stay as is. Just like stealth Anet doesnt clarify what their idea of teleportation should be and we end up with cases where one teleportation can skip height while another teleportation requires a direct unobstructed path to the target.

 

You have all these problems because you are starting to apply logic to a game's mechanics. We have no idea what the philosophy is for Anet to design it this way but via player testing, we have understood that these are the properties of a mechanic labelled Shadowstep. 

That's why things like Shadowstepping up certain cliffs which cannot be naturally scaled are called exploits. And exploits should be fixed. 

I have no idea why you guys suddenly drag logic into a mechanical discussion. It's clear about one thing though: you guys just hate teleporting. And I'm getting the feeling that you guys feel that it's unfair that some classes have teleports and others don't. 

If you have an issue against a classes' ability to teleport, then just man up and say you have a problem with their teleports and back it up with why you feel that is the case. If not, don't hide behind logic reasoning for video game mechanics like "Why can't my rocket boots go up vertical planes" when Anet just simply didn't design rocket boots to behave that way. I for one have an issue with Willbender having like a whole arsenal shadowsteps that can track up and down cliffs. I want that stuff nerfed, so I say I want that stuff nerfed. You don't see me going "why do they have teleports, let's play a roundabout logic game and see if people support me in calling a nerf" 

If you hate teleports:

1. Say that you hate teleports

2. Explain why you think x or y teleports shouldn't behave the way they are 

3. Suggest a compromise, or admit you're just whinging

Or else it's not much of a discussion, it's just beating around a bush. Players don't design the game, the developers do. If you want Rocket boots to scale vertical cliffs so much, ask Anet to do it. Anyway, the whole thread has gone way off topic. OP just suggested all teleports turn into targeted ones, and here you have people suggesting teleports make no sense. Yea it's fine if it makes no sense, tell Anet to nerf it then, why bother convincing everyone it makes no sense. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Alcatraznc.3869]

16 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

You have all these problems because you are starting to apply logic to a game's mechanics. We have no idea what the philosophy is for Anet to design it this way but via player testing, we have understood that these are the properties of a mechanic labelled Shadowstep. 

If there is no logical reasoning behind a mechanic and the dev says nothing about it then yes, player will have problems. 

16 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

That's why things like Shadowstepping up certain cliffs which cannot be naturally scaled are called exploits. And exploits should be fixed. 

At least we agree on that

16 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I have no idea why you guys suddenly drag logic into a mechanical discussion. It's clear about one thing though: you guys just hate teleporting. And I'm getting the feeling that you guys feel that it's unfair that some classes have teleports and others don't. 

I never hid the fact I hate teleportation in GW2 and I have explained the reasons above.

16 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

If you have an issue against a classes' ability to teleport, then just man up and say you have a problem with their teleports and back it up with why you feel that is the case. If not, don't hide behind logic reasoning for video game mechanics like "Why can't my rocket boots go up vertical planes" when Anet just simply didn't design rocket boots to behave that way. I for one have an issue with Willbender having like a whole arsenal shadowsteps that can track up and down cliffs. I want that stuff nerfed, so I say I want that stuff nerfed. You don't see me going "why do they have teleports, let's play a roundabout logic game and see if people support me in calling a nerf" 

If you hate teleports:

1. Say that you hate teleports

2. Explain why you think x or y teleports shouldn't behave the way they are 

3. Suggest a compromise, or admit you're just whinging

Again you are completely missing the fact here. I dont give a crap about teleportation itself, for all I care if tomorrow Anet decide to give Thief unlimited teleportation I dont care. However GW2 Teleportation is illogical and broken as it is so yes I dont want more of this. If you do not see the issue with an instant movement skill that allows you to skip combat mechanic (on top of extra stuff like dispell, instant cast, breaksunts...) such as height then there's nothing I can do for you but dont come here and say "you guys want teleportation to be nerfed but dont want to say it".  I've given plenty of argument why I think it should be nerfed but the people who disagree with me seems unable to offer a proper explanation other than a confused emote so nothing much I can do here. 

16 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Or else it's not much of a discussion, it's just beating around a bush. Players don't design the game, the developers do. If you want Rocket boots to scale vertical cliffs so much, ask Anet to do it. Anyway, the whole thread has gone way off topic. OP just suggested all teleports turn into targeted ones, and here you have people suggesting teleports make no sense. Yea it's fine if it makes no sense, tell Anet to nerf it then, why bother convincing everyone it makes no sense. 

If people are convinced about what I say then great, if they dont I dont care as long as they are able to provide some meat to the discussion. That's the whole point of the forum as a whole giving detailed feedback about the game.  

[Jobber.6348]

7 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Again you are completely missing the fact here. I dont give a crap about teleportation itself, for all I care if tomorrow Anet decide to give Thief unlimited teleportation I dont care. However GW2 Teleportation is illogical and broken as it is so yes I dont want more of this. If you do not see the issue with an instant movement skill that allows you to skip combat mechanic (on top of extra stuff like dispell, instant cast, breaksunts...) such as height then there's nothing I can do for you but dont come here and say "you guys want teleportation to be nerfed but dont want to say it".  I've given plenty of argument why I think it should be nerfed but the people who disagree with me seems unable to offer a proper explanation other than a confused emote so nothing much I can do here. 

Which is fine. Make another topic about it. 

 

7 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

If people are convinced about what I say then great, if they dont I dont care as long as they are able to provide some meat to the discussion. That's the whole point of the forum as a whole giving detailed feedback about the game.  

Which sounds like you would get better engagement and results in a topic focused about talking about mobility creep, or more specifically why some classes are designed with more mobility than others. Then you let the players of that class defend their opinion against yours. 

Right now, nothing you are contributing is answering the topic of "Should ground targeted teleports be made to require a target" which I say no, because it still doesn't support his reasoning, which is mobility creep. I ask him, like I am asking you, to call for nerfs instead of suggesting ground targeted teleports to have functionality changes. It's roundabout and actually solves nothing. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Alcatraznc.3869]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Right now, nothing you are contributing is answering the topic of "Should ground targeted teleports be made to require a target"

 

I literally said :

On 11/21/2023 at 12:42 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Not all teleport needs to have a target

But yeah sure I'm not contributing.