Big Important Discussion For State Of Ranger Competitively - post 11/28 - beta maces included

[Rap Tiger.1257]

9 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 what you said is right .... Well at least for the Meta builds. Warrior imo got realy and i mean realy Bad dmging skills. Yes condi Warrior is something around:

Attack Power 4 while Defence Power 6

(This is mostly thanks to akeem relic tho). But Power Warrior Overall is just more like this:

Attack Power 2 while Defence Power 6

Or

Attack Power 6 while Defence Power 2

Nothing on it is actually realy good specialy when you think about it been a full melee class so it can not compensate its Defence loss by kiting or at least not as good as for example Ranger or deadeye could.

If you think warrior is bad, I introduce you to bladesworn, the class that can do almost everything and survives a lot, does damage.

[Sansar.1302]

In spvp and wvw i belive Ranger is the weakest class at the moment. ( migth be in pve too but that  would i know nothing about )

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I like how this silently got yeeted out of the sPvP forums 😂

Like, we have a billion nerf ranger topics over there they listen to, but the feedback ones get shuffled in the prof forums lolol

[psizone.8437]

17 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

forum cabal theory.

I dunno about cabal but I wouldn't put it past someone to have alts just to annoy people on the forums.

There are a lot more emotes being used in this post than we usually get around here.

[Myror.7521]

@Rap Tiger.1257 Well im not thinking about bsw. I just simply hate that spec. Too noob friendly If you ask me. Good that it got nerfed in this Patch ^^ makes Counterplay actually possible xd

[Sahne.6950]

Phoenix pet seems pretty good right now. Same as the polarbear.

Yesterday i was duelling Boyce´s Untamed. and later that evening i was 2 times against him in a match.   i was sidenoding against him the whole match.

He played GS/LB Untamed with Phoenix and polarbear.  Getting him off the node was tough as hell.

The phoenix did hit REALLY REALLY hard. i am talking hits that are above 6k!

 

just as predicted the polarbear is also very good right now. Infact.. and in true Anet style... they broke it... the same thing they do on every "rework"... 

The plan was to give that skill a stun, but reduce the range down to 360. HOWEVER... that skill just straight up stuns your target on ranges that are way beyond that. The aoe part seems to be 360... but your actual target will be stunned wayyy beyond that.

Boyce was abusing this nonstop against me.  Just before he is about to burst, he activates the pet f2 to lock me in place for the ol´reliable GS combo. Followed up by a swap to phoenix which would then also slap me for 6k+.

 

Idk whats goin on here... but ranger is honestly fine.  You just need to realize whats good now and whats bad now.

 

Edit: no need to downvote this Trevor.  This is happening right now.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

~ edit

weird double post

Edited November 30, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

24 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You just need to realize whats good now and whats bad now.

You also need to realize the difference between fighting someone like Boyce and then fighting more normal players.

For example, I could run some random build with Hyena/Moa and make it look functional because I have 30,000 games played in pvp and 11 years of experience, but that doesn't make Hyrena/Moa actually good or functional in competitive tiers.

[Sahne.6950]

39 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You also need to realize the difference between fighting someone like Boyce and then fighting more normal players.

For example, I could run some random build with Hyena/Moa and make it look functional because I have 30,000 games played in pvp and 11 years of experience, but that doesn't make Hyrena/Moa actually good or functional in competitive tiers.

You need to realize that i factor in skill in all of this.

i know boyce, i fought him alot.  i know my limits with my builds.   and i know his potential on other builds.

What was happening was, that UNTAMED WAS STRONG.   i can beat numerous builds of him.  But this one....  This one is strong.

 

Honestly... give it a shot trevor!  Ranger is by no means bad right now!   i am not trying to kitten you here.   This is good!

Edit: he was also not the only Untamed that day... theres quite a few people rocking this already.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Deadmoose.6594]

19 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

When something has already been proven true several times over or is just so plainly obvious that it doesn't need investigation for validity

Can you prove that lone individuals are logging into multiple accounts just to put confused emojis on your posts? Seems far fetched to me, and I'm kind of tired of trying to convince you otherwise because for you this is repeat behavior.

What if...hear me out...all of your theories are wrong?

[Sahne.6950]

11 minutes ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

What if...hear me out...all of your theories are wrong?

Hes mostly right with that wintrading things.  There is more than enough evidence of this.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

44 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You need to realize that i factor in skill in all of this.

i know boyce, i fought him alot.  i know my limits with my builds.   and i know his potential on other builds.

What was happening was, that UNTAMED WAS STRONG.   i can beat numerous builds of him.  But this one....  This one is strong.

 

Honestly... give it a shot trevor!  Ranger is by no means bad right now!   i am not trying to kitten you here.   This is good!

I think you're misunderstanding what I've said here:

I've specifically pointed out several times that Bunker Side Node Ranger is strong, has been strong, and is able to keep up with other Side Node builds, although I'd say it's the weaker and less adaptable out of the current side node options.

What I've been mainly pointing out in this thread is that this is now the only thing that Ranger can do. They took a class who's core was entirely designed around being a ranged + roamer, and like started converting it into side node bunker play only. The problem here is that this is simply not what the majority of Ranger mains want. This problem is now seeping into wvw roaming and even zerging as well. Ranger is weak now in wvw compared to some of these other options we see as roamers & zergers. As I've stated multiple times now, to get sustain we have to take every defensive option and we have no damage past someone choosing to stand with us on a node. This stuff doesn't work in wvw. They're going way too deep on trying to convert Ranger into this Catalyst like approach while removing its efficiency as an actual mobile ranged threat.

Maybe this would have been acceptable to do in the first years of the game, but 11 years in man, anyone who's still left in this game playing Ranger has done so because they liked the way that Ranger has always felt before this recent design push, which was being a mobile light-foot class that could move around quickly and deal damage with ranged, while having short lived bursts of melee action before needing to move again. Literally no one in this entire subforum's feedback was excited to hear about Ranger getting double maces because we knew what that was going to mean. And wallah what do we have? A design push to further push Ranger even further into less mobile play with less ranged options that has to rely on Ele like play instead of classic Ranger like play.

On a side note, you EU guys gotta stop using Boyce as a standard for comparison. There are so many reasons why it isn't a realistic reference to use for balance discussions. Can you name me 1 person you've encountered since all of this patching began, that made a Ranger look comparatively as dangerous as let's say current Reaper, that wasn't Boyce? Also, as an Ele main whom I sure is side noding all game, when you encounter Rangers you're only seeing the high tier side of what it can do, which is now bunking a side node. What you're not seeing or feeling first hand, is how roamers like Willbender or DH or even Warrior builds or Heralds/VIndis or Scrappers & Holos or Thieves or Mesmers, you're not seeing & feeling how much easier of a time those roamers are having dealing with Ranger roamers, because you're likely only engaging Ranger side node builds, and any Ranger roamer is just going to run from you when you're an Ele because you're a hard counter when they try to run DPS.

It's not fine dude. Ranger play is turning into Ele play and that's not what the Ranger player base wants. It's great to have the option of side noding but it's not cool to be pigeonholed into only side noding on mid to low DPS builds that aren't even adaptable in team fights. Like I said before, this is even seeping into wvw. The problem is exasperated in wvw actually, because what a Ranger can do with cele stats and those extra gears is very limited as compared to what Eles & Necro can do with it as example. <- It's true. And then of course when you try to run full DPS in wvw against cele builds, it just doesn't work unless you're a plat+ player fighting what would be low golds or worse in wvw. When you get those rare sweaty try hard nights in wvw when good players are actually skirmishing against each other, DPS Rangers vs cele builds doesn't work man.

It is a simple conclusion to come to. They removed too much damage off Ranger DPS builds, and have now removed too much utility by messing with Smokescale. While other classes are receiving very direct buffs, Ranger is receiving more nerfing.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I think you're misunderstanding what I've said here:

I've specifically pointed out several times that Bunker Side Node Ranger is strong, has been strong, and is able to keep up with other Side Node builds, although I'd say it's the weaker and less adaptable out of the current side node options.

What I've been mainly pointing out in this thread is that this is now the only thing that Ranger can do. They took a class who's core was entirely designed around being a ranged + roamer, and like started converting it into side node bunker play only. The problem here is that this is simply not what the majority of Ranger mains want. This problem is now seeping into wvw roaming and even zerging as well. Ranger is weak now in wvw compared to some of these other options we see as roamers & zergers. As I've stated multiple times now, to get sustain we have to take every defensive option and we have no damage past someone choosing to stand with us on a node. This stuff doesn't work in wvw. They're going way too deep on trying to convert Ranger into this Catalyst like approach while removing its efficiency as an actual mobile ranged threat.

Maybe this would have been acceptable to do in the first years of the game, but 11 years in man, anyone who's still left in this game playing Ranger has done so because they liked the way that Ranger has always felt before this recent design push, which was being a mobile light-foot class that could move around quickly and deal damage with ranged, while having short lived bursts of melee action before needing to move again. Literally no one in this entire subforum's feedback was excited to hear about Ranger getting double maces because we knew what that was going to mean. And wallah what do we have? A design push to further push Ranger even further into less mobile play with less ranged options that has to rely on Ele like play instead of classic Ranger like play.

On a side note, you EU guys gotta stop using Boyce as a standard for comparison. There are so many reasons why it isn't a realistic reference to use for balance discussions. Can you name me 1 person you've encountered since all of this patching began, that made a Ranger look comparatively as dangerous as let's say current Reaper, that wasn't Boyce? Also, as an Ele main whom I sure is side noding all game, when you encounter Rangers you're only seeing the high tier side of what it can do, which is now bunking a side node. What you're not seeing or feeling first hand, is how roamers like Willbender or DH or even Warrior builds or Heralds/VIndis or Scrappers & Holos or Thieves or Mesmers, you're not seeing & feeling how much easier of a time those roamers are having dealing with Ranger roamers, because you're likely only engaging Ranger side node builds, and any Ranger roamer is just going to run from you when you're an Ele because you're a hard counter when they try to run DPS.

It's not fine dude. Ranger play is turning into Ele play and that's not what the Ranger player base wants. It's great to have the option of side noding but it's not cool to be pigeonholed into only side noding on mid to low DPS builds that aren't even adaptable in team fights. Like I said before, this is even seeping into wvw. The problem is exasperated in wvw actually, because what a Ranger can do with cele stats and those extra gears is very limited as compared to what Eles & Necro can do with it as example. <- It's true. And then of course when you try to run full DPS in wvw against cele builds, it just doesn't work unless you're a plat+ player fighting what would be low golds or worse in wvw. When you get those rare sweaty try hard nights in wvw when good players are actually skirmishing against each other, DPS Rangers vs cele builds doesn't work man.

It is a simple conclusion to come to. They removed too much damage off Ranger DPS builds, and have now removed too much utility by messing with Smokescale. While other classes are receiving very direct buffs, Ranger is receiving more nerfing.

Now you know how i feel about ele. 

Been saying the same stuff about ele... and people including you just went: but you have sup tempest and hammercata. 

But what if i dont want to play this exact build!?!?

And now you are here... and i am telling you:  Ranger has sidenode untamed.... 

Same Story diffrent characters.

You have a very functional build that can be played even in higher Tiers... 

 

 

 

Also... lets not Mix wvw and pvp.  Thats 2 completly diffrent things.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Beddo.1907]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:19 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

• You guys went way way too hard on Ranger nerfs in the past half a year or so.
• Ranger is currently being pigeonholed into the role of side node bunker. Mace main-hand specifically will seal its fate here.
• You need to add damage back to Ranger if you want to see anything in play that isn't an Untamed or Druid side node low damage hard bunker.
• The pet patch was a low blow guys. Smokescale needs its CC back.
• Nature's Strength mechanic is completely & entirely dysfunctional for competitive no matter how you try to work it. It needs a rework for competitive. Mace main-hand is great, but mace-offhand needs some work to be useful in competitive. ~~~ Careful with buffing that NS too much though. When the 25% kicks on, the damage can be very high with certain setups. I would suggest for competitive that the 25% is lowered to maybe 15% and that the NS 6 stacks becomes more accessible in general, whether the skills grant more stacks or the stack limit is lowered or maybe the duration is brought from 15s to 20s. Something like that.

1. Kinda agree kinda don't. Over 90% of nerfs were completely justified with the results we were doing. HOWEVER for each nerf we should've received a buff somewhere else to not cause overall strength being reduced. 
2. Personally I don't really care about what role we have in PvP, as long as we have one. Interpret it however you want.
3. I agree with getting buffs, but they need to be scattered around the kit, so we don't get a repeat of yet another oneshot.
4. I really hate how the entire patch is boiled down to Smokescale nerf being treated like they straight up deleted the pet. Smokescale still does what it did.
5. I'm 100% fine with NS being at the current power level. The effect is hard to use, but you easily make up for it when you use it successfully.
If they make it easier to use, it will end up being nerfed to the point where you don't really care if it's up or not. In the end you choose between good effect that needs some skill or a negligible effect that's need no input from you.

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You also need to realize the difference between fighting someone like Boyce and then fighting more normal players.

When I made that exact comparison about good ele players compared to the average ele, you tried to shut it down. Why does it suddenly apply to ranger?, ah right, becuase now YOUR class is in danger. I agree, don't nerf classes with no compensation, but your double standards are annoying, becuase you advocated for the very treatment to ele that you are now trying to avoid for ranger.

 

You also argued that any talk around ele balance below MAT level is redundent, yet you are making such arguments about the state of ranger for below MAT level. I like to read your posts for ranger takes but at least cut out the double standards.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sansar.1302]

31 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

When I made that exact comparison about good ele players compared to the average ele, you tried to shut it down. Why does it suddenly apply to ranger?, ah right, becuase now YOUR class is in danger. I agree, don't nerf classes with no compensation, but your double standards are annoying, becuase you advocated for the very treatment to ele that you are now trying to avoid for ranger.

 

You also argued that any talk around ele balance below MAT level is redundent, yet you are making such arguments about the state of ranger for below MAT level. I like to read your posts for ranger takes but at least cut out the double standards.

But elementalist where/is op so nerfing that would make sence.

Ranger on the otherhand where alredy weak before the last round of nerfs.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

When I made that exact comparison about good ele players compared to the average ele, you tried to shut it down.

Look man, you guys have got to let go of this Ele grudge stuff.

1. I wasn't the only person posting about it. Literally the entire community, including Ele mains, agreed it was insanely God tier overpowered. There was a point in time where the entire first page of the pvp subforum was different threads written by different people, complaining about Ele. My threads & statements just tend to be loudest. What happened there was an unprecedented event that we've never seen happen before with any other class/build, even things like original Chronobunker. We've never even seen page 1 be half full of complaints about some single other class/build.
2. We've seen several MATs in a row where teams were filled with ONLY Eles. Yes, the team comps were like Tempest/Cata/Cata/Cata/Cata or Cata/Cata/Cata/Cata/Cata or maybe like Temp/Cata/Cata/Cata/Thief. We have NEVER seen a situation where more than 1 Ranger was ever played in an MAT team and NEVER seen a situation where more than maybe 2 Rangers at all have ever made it into the top 3 finishing teams.

You guys have to stop comparing Ele receiving nerfs to Ranger receiving nerfs.

And you've got to stop associating me with what happened to Ele. You guys act like I'm the only person who advocated that it was OP when it was indeed the actual entire community advocating for Ele nerfs. Furthermore, I am not the person who coded & uploaded those unfavorable nerfs. I never advocated for anything that was even similar to what they chose to do to Ele. You guys need to let go of this.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Flowki.7194]

5 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

But elementalist where/is op so nerfing that would make sence.

Ranger on the otherhand where alredy weak before the last round of nerfs.

 

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Look man, you guys have got to let go of this Ele grudge stuff.

1. I wasn't the only person posting about it. Literally the entire community, including Ele mains, agreed it was insanely God tier overpowered. There was a point in time where the entire first page of the pvp subforum was different threads written by different people, complaining about Ele. My threads & statements just tend to be loudest. What happened there was an unprecedented event that we've never seen happen before with any other class/build, even things like original Chronobunker. We've never even seen page 1 be half full of complaints about some single other class/build.
2. We've seen several MATs in a row where teams were filled with ONLY Eles. Yes, the team comps were like Tempest/Cata/Cata/Cata/Cata or Cata/Cata/Cata/Cata/Cata or maybe like Temp/Cata/Cata/Cata/Thief. We have NEVER seen a situation where more than 1 Ranger was ever played in an MAT team and NEVER seen a situation where more than maybe 2 Rangers at all have ever made it into the top 3 finishing teams.

You guys have to stop comparing Ele receiving nerfs to Ranger receiving nerfs. And you've got to stop associating me with this.

Yeah ofc, I agree. But what I said back then and now is still true. Power cata was only an issue in the hands of a plat level player, back then, power cata representation in the average to lower skill playerbase was tiny in sPVP, they fold and die completely empty handed, like a bad hollow. I played it, and rarely seen power catas from low silver up to gold 3 (at that time rangers were about as rare due to tempest aura). The game does try to mirror match you?, so if I seen less catas as cata back then, others would see even less, correct?

 

What I argued back then, is that nerfing ele for its max level performance will destroy its already tiny representation even further at mid/low level, becuase its higher skill floor OR effort/risk ratios seem to turn many away from it (unless you have a better explination?). When I argued these points from an average level perspective it was continually dissmissed and shut down. Now, after nerfs, what do you see? the occasional DPS tempest, and thats about it (EU).

 

Ranger got some direct/indirect buffs, especially off the decline of tempest, im fine with that. However, ranger at mid/lower level is highly represented, why is that? could it be due to its bloated, front loaded ability to spew out stuns and dps while immune? something power cata could not do, keeping ''lower skilled'' catas in check? Same princible is applying with the likes of warrior/virt, also well represented, also front loading dmg in an easier way than power cata could achieve in the hands of an average player. 

 

I don't think that nerfs to classes should be aimed only at top level performance, indescriminant of its effect to average/lower level impact. But if that is the case (as was done with ele) then apply that rule evenly. Im tired of seing lower skilled players being carried by front loaded specs like SB, virt etc.. where I know they would just fold in seconds,  on something like hollow/cata/vindi.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sansar.1302]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Yeah ofc, I agree. But what I said back then and now is still true. Power cata was only an issue in the hands of a plat level player, back then, power cata representation in the average to lower skill playerbase was tiny in sPVP, they fold and die completely empty handed, like a bad hollow. I played it, and rarely seen power catas from low silver up to gold 3 (at that time rangers were about as rare due to tempest aura). The game does try to mirror match you?, so if I seen less catas as cata back then, others would see even less, correct?

 

What I argued back then, is that nerfing ele for its max level performance will destroy its already tiny representation even further at mid/low level, becuase its higher skill floor OR effort/risk ratios seem to turn many away from it (unless you have a better explination?). When I argued these points from an average level perspective it was continually dissmissed and shut down. Now, after nerfs, what do you see? the occasional DPS tempest, and thats about it (EU).

 

Ranger got some direct/indirect buffs, especially off the decline of tempest, im fine with that. However, ranger at mid/lower level is highly represented, why is that? could it be due to its bloated, front loaded ability to spew out stuns and dps while immune? something power cata could not do, keeping ''lower skilled'' catas in check? Same princible is applying with the likes of warrior/virt, also well represented, also front loading dmg in an easier way than power cata could achieve in the hands of an average player. 

 

I don't think that nerfs to classes should be aimed only at top level performance, indescriminant of its effect to average/lower level impact. But if that is the case (as was done with ele) then apply that rule evenly. Im tired of seing lower skilled players being carried by front loaded specs like SB, virt etc.. where I know they would just fold in seconds,  on something like hollow/cata/vindi.

I think it only makes sence to buff/nerf according to players that know what they do.

Plat lvl in spvp aint that hig skill flor, so it makes sence that ballance should focus on that skill tier.

[Sahne.6950]

20 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

We've never even seen page 1 be half full of complaints about some single other class/build.

i remember a time not long ago, where page 1 were almost completly full of complaints about our lord and savior Swolebeast!  remember that?

remember when the whole forum turned into 1 big meme, because SLB was oneshotting people out of stealth and 2 seperate patches would drop without any form of nerf to that build?

pepperidge farm sure does.  

(pls no wall of text explaining why 5 times swolebeast would have never work and why Cata was 10 times stronger; thanks)

Heck, Alot people have never changed their PFP back since. 

but you were noticeably quite during that time....   as soon as they nerfed slb... you are suddenly back with 1000 word essays on why ranger is the worst of them all and will loose to everything....   WHILE UNTAMED IS STILL META

 

 

idk what else to say, besides "be happy ranger  still has a build in this meta after Slb took over." Other professions got shafted alot more when one build was taking over, causing massive collateral Damage. (see: Czerker<->Pzerker | Cata<-> literally every ele build | Nadescrapprr <-> the whole of scrapper, only to nerf Nades afterwards | mechanist <-> entirity of rifle |  Chronobunker <-> the whole of Chrono...  yada yada ) 

There is a bajillion examples of this. One build overperforms and then gets shafted taking numerous builds and archetypes with them. In some cases,like chrono for example, it took them almost half a decade to make it viable again.

 

But ranger?  you still have Untamed sidenoder as meta, and alot of people are prooving that you can now, ontop of the functioning Sidenodebuild, play Untamed LB/GS Roamer, thanks to the help of the Polarbear stunlock and Phoenix damage.

You are so hung up on the fact Smokescale lost CC...But completly ignore that other professions also took a hit recently.  Engie lost nades, Ele lost the whole of sceptre, Necro lost corrupts... Zerker lost alot of Damageimmunity, yada yada!  relax pal! They tuned down ALOT of builds.  Your soulbeast might be weaker, but so are the builds you are competing with. 

No build truely dominates right now, and Ranger has a solid spot in the current meta.....   what more do you want?  

The last patches shows kind of a Trend... things that builds were Traditionally used got a small nerf, while unused traits or skills got CD shaves. (See: nade nerf, but buffs to various other CDs) 

Which should in theory, over the longrun, lead to more freedom in creating builds.

Same thing happened here with Ranger.

you lost 1 CC and got compensated with buffs to EVERY.SINGLE.PET. They even buffed Tailswipe XD Some of those pets are borderline broken right now. (see: infinite range stun Polarbear)   dont be so fixiated on that one poopy CC...  its honestly not the end of the world.  They even compensated you with Damage on that skill, which also translates to more dps on the pet itself and they also gave you Phoenix, which is CRAZY strong right now and Polarbear which is just plain broken.

you honestly cant make ranger work right now? whats going on Trevor?    me and others are having quite some succes.... more than we have with our initial mains.... so... yeah.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

idk what else to say, besides "be happy ranger  still has a build in this meta after Slb took over."

Let me say this again:

On 11/30/2023 at 9:02 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I think you're misunderstanding what I've said here:

I've specifically pointed out several times that Bunker Side Node Ranger is strong, has been strong, and is able to keep up with other Side Node builds, although I'd say it's the weaker and less adaptable out of the current side node options.

What I've been mainly pointing out in this thread is that this is now the only thing that Ranger can do.

About Untamed Roamer being good with Polar Bear, ha. Damage on Polar Bear is way too low man and way too infrequent.

Anyone using Polar Bear has not yet figured out what Gazelle/Turtle is capable of on Untamed. <- That is dangerous damage output. The new fixed Gazelle Charge makes Gazelle OP. It is now a 2x CC pet where one of the CCs itself is also a high damage strike that can follow up with the Kick for more high damage. The Gazelle is also a tank. The Turtle now is not only a tank with an anti-projectile bubble that pulses prot, but he also now has 2x CCs and one of them hits like a Tail Swipe. Between those two pets you're getting 4x CCs and several high damage procs. You can't beat that combo if you're running DPS Marks Untamed, not just for the CC & damage, but also the extra bubble the Turtle provides.

Guarantee you any DPS roamer Untamed meta will emerge as Gazelle/Turtle, IF they can find room to ditch the smoke field. But even still, that doesn't mean it'll hold efficiency in anything beyond yolo queues with mixed MMRs where you can target & farm low skill players. What I've been telling this whole time is true, Ranger roamers are just too glassy for competitive 5v5s such as ATs, without free stealth capability. When they have to sacrifice the Smokescale "which allowed them stealth blasts & leaps for disengage" they end up having the same problem like Engi/Holo where they look VERY impressive in 1v1s but are way too easily targeted & ran down by team focus. Like you could take the best Tool Holo player in the game who looks insanely impressive in 1v1, but in an actual 5v5 game against plat+ players, they know that build can only survive for a matter seconds if say a Herald + DP Daredevil focuses it, because it just doesn't have the kind of utilities it needs to seriously kite/disengage focus from more than 1 player at a time. This is exactly what is going to happen to any Untamed who doesn't run Smokescale for the smokefield. Opponents know that pressure from 2+ players just instant counters the build and so he becomes priority target #1 because he is the easiest to kill and the most dangerous if ignored, and there really is no way to counterplay this because an Untamed without smokefield has limited mobility on top of no stealth. A Soulbeast being able to merge for assault tele/evade frames and long range mobility run skills like with Gazelle, is what makes people think "Ranger is fast". Untamed is slow like a Core Ranger man. Slow Core Rangers running full DPS that don't have stealth get killed first in our modern metas.

Again, Untamed DPS is going to look awfully impressive in 1v1s and in yolo queue games where half the players aren't rotating/focusing correctly, as do many builds. But it'll be a liability to run in coordinated AT teams who know how to focus targets. I've well explained this several times for several years now, the one biggest problem that Ranger has within the balancing:

1. It looks & feels very strong in yolo queue games for the reasons I've explained, and generally within middle tiers where people have a lot of l2p issues that the Ranger design can exploit easily.
2. But when it goes into more competitive environments where people know how to focus targets and have overcame l2p issues such as: "Knowing how to combat Ranger ranged by out-LOSing the Ranger with nades or melee things that can hit through walls whereas the Ranger ranged cannot" or just in general "Not standing/walking in the open directly at a Ranger" ect ect, the class Ranger begins have steep declines in its efficiency. This isn't just my own opinion, every high tiered Ranger/streamer who has ever discussed these topics has given this exact same feedback. The class Ranger is like the opposite of something like Ele. Ranger is strong in those middle tiers and takes dive in higher tiers, whereas Ele you don't see much from them in middle tiers due to l2p issues of knowing how to really work that class but in higher tiers wielded by players who really understand the class and its role, its efficiency goes waaay up.
3. THE PROBLEM comes in with those middle tier complaints. because the middle to low tiers are by far the bulk of the player base, Arenanet listens to everything they say and caters balance around it, so that Ranger "Feels" balanced to those players. So they nerf it for middle tiers and when this happens, it just becomes invalid and in no way viable for higher tier play unless you're one the old GOATS who can make it work. This stuff has been going on with Ranger for years. As soon as a Ranger build is actually viable enough to survive in a top 3 placing MAT team, that intrinsically means that it has become an absolute monster in middle tiers and yolo queue games. Another example, it's similar to Rifle Mech on release. It was an absolute monster in middle tiers and yolo games where no one focuses and has l2p issues and EVERYONE in gold complained about it, yet NO ONE ran in any serious team because it had these same problems I'm explaining to you about higher tiered play where it became a complete liability when there weren't l2p issues and people knew how to focus, because it had bad disengage and virtually no tools to deal with 2+ focus.

So don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I've specifically stated several times now: That side node bunker Ranger can compete in high tiered environments, BUT that is all it can do in terms of getting serious to place top 3 in an MAT. Hey, I'm sure a lot of people are thinking "Well I don't care about top 3 placing team balance" but you know what? Some of us do.

There you go.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

51 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Gazelle is capable on Untamed....    That is dangerous damage output. The new fixed Gazelle Charge makes Gazelle OP. It is now a 2x CC pet where one of the CCs itself is also a high damage strike that can follow up with the Kick for more high damage.

I just think its insanely funny how i said this exact thing 2 weeks ago and you were like:     No way bro.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

41 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I just think its insanely funny how i said this exact thing 2 weeks ago and you were like:     No way bro.

No, what I said is that the Gazelle & Turtle fixes would be good but that it would still wouldn't replace Smokescale in what it does to enable DPS roaming builds.

Same thing I'm saying in this thread, go reread it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

To summarize (so far):

• Pets are the star of the show here as this topic started on sPvP forums--welcome all you normies!
• Bear bow may be back because of one Daze, if you step into sPvP watch out for that polar bear with hugely telegraphed roar
• Ranger roaming is dead despite smokescale getting damage now and still having the smoke field as ranger has no other setup CC's
• Turtle/Gazelle combo is just now seeing light of day when it has been good for...almost 2 years now, because turtle has an extra CC that sometimes hits people who are sleeping
• Some are still having Vietnam flashbacks about meme soulbeast--good thing dodge keys did not need to be located as anet took a tactical nuke to the build for them
• Finally, despite all balancing in past year pointing to bunker, ranger somehow is going to be balanced to be fast and have lot of stealth like thief to be roamer as dev's use number of characters typed in feedback threads to balance by

[Flowki.7194]

13 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

I think it only makes sence to buff/nerf according to players that know what they do.

Plat lvl in spvp aint that hig skill flor, so it makes sence that ballance should focus on that skill tier.

 

It is possible to buff/nerf classes at the highest, right down to the lowest level. It is not a 1 tailed thing. This is done by understanding the difference between skill floors and skill ceilings, and how raising or lowering either, impact players across all skill levels. Skill floors and ceiling are somewhat tied together, but not always. However, ANet do not apear to have done anything to raise either the floor or ceiling. Instead, all they do is crunch number values. This is why the meta is now full of low skill floor specs, but these specs are popular (wonder why) and well represented.. so this is never a popular fact. SB is in that low floor zone, its front loaded, just like willbender, rush a player, spam stuns/dps/blocks and the other person dies unless they understand your spec, far more than you understand theirs (not you personaly, average level players). Ranger has a high skill ceiling, I am not disputing that.. but lets say ranger was OP, simply nerfing its dps numbers does nothing to adress its low skill flaw, it is just as brainded, but simply does less damage.

 

This again was the issue with ele. They nerfed the kitten out of scepter numbers, they didnt touch the skill floor, so ele didn't get any easier to play, yet does less damage. Unless the ele is good, hes a free kill. Any average SB I come across a threat, just like willbender, becuase they are heavily front loaded, and not hard to play. Power herald is front loaded also, but we know kitten well it isnt spewing out stuns and blocks, which makes it much higher risk = you need to actually know how to dodge/engage properly. Say im wrong?

Edited December 1, 2023 by Flowki.7194