The balance is...

[Frequency.6407]

Cata was nerfed. You're playing the wrong class. Try hammer guard.

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 i mean i get that the meta warr Builds just too good into hold a node. However i gotta be real. Outside of this 2 realy broken Builds warr got for real nothing. Also this 2 Builds are only realy good in ats means 5 man organised play. In ranked you would need to have a duo partner cause against good peops you just cant do kitten. Its like you are pretty mutch useless when you Play solo against good peops with warrs meta Builds cause all you could actually do is just staying as long alife as possible cause you just can't kill good peops with this Builds. (That does makes sence cause the Builds are played on litterly pure Defence). 

The Problem with warr is....... you are not able to punish peops good enough anymore.  The moment you Go for dmg on warr is the moment you are struggle to stay alife but also struggle to deal good enough dmg cause everyone does 7k+ hits nowdays while warr does on non glass builds 4k max dmg (aside of GS burst of course). (While still First need to fill adrenaline and get the enemy cced to be in range to get its DMG done). Now just compare this to other classes dealing ways more dmg on range with ports, stealth, invuln and superspeed as back up mechanics while also not gain too mutch of clunky Animations^^

[Shagie.7612]

55 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

However i gotta be real. Outside of this 2 realy broken Builds warr got for real nothing.

Aw man you mean just like literally every other class who tries to play something off meta? That's tragic, you poor little baby.

Warriors haven't been bad since the Defense rework but they're all still utterly convinced we're in late-PoF when they actually were.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 i mean i get that the meta warr Builds just too good into hold a node. However i gotta be real. Outside of this 2 realy broken Builds warr got for real nothing. Also this 2 Builds are only realy good in ats means 5 man organised play. In ranked you would need to have a duo partner cause against good peops you just cant do kitten. Its like you are pretty mutch useless when you Play solo against good peops with warrs meta Builds cause all you could actually do is just staying as long alife as possible cause you just can't kill good peops with this Builds. (That does makes sence cause the Builds are played on litterly pure Defence). 

The Problem with warr is....... you are not able to punish peops good enough anymore.  The moment you Go for dmg on warr is the moment you are struggle to stay alife but also struggle to deal good enough dmg cause everyone does 7k+ hits nowdays while warr does on non glass builds 4k max dmg (aside of GS burst of course). (While still First need to fill adrenaline and get the enemy cced to be in range to get its DMG done). Now just compare this to other classes dealing ways more dmg on range with ports, stealth, invuln and superspeed as back up mechanics while also not gain too mutch of clunky Animations^^

 

Warrior is a problem becuase it has primaried burst proof sustain for like 15 seconds + enough mobility/blocks to escape. That means its rarely ever made primary, so has free reign to stunlock and condibomb until either A; half his team is dead and then he gets primaried,  or B; he pushes the back line too far and gets ganked. Imo every spec in the game should be gankable for not playing right.. but you can't do that with warrior when they are rewarded with immunity for eating a stun. Scourge, gaurdian, virt are the same, getting a free ride from being primaried becuase their sustain is brainded.. they take too long to kill even when not very good, which in turn lets things like chrono/SB/willbender have a free game if you primary them. If you don't primary them, then they get a free game. Its bs.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

16 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Anet did that mistake already....when they lowered damage across the board and like you, they "forgot" to consider the base differences between all professions. Things like base HP, mechanics and weapons available. These broad applications without clear scope are even worst for the game, it's always the same professions which end up suffering in the end with these broad changes. 

Lowering dmg on a class with 10k base HP is not the same as lowering the dmg on a class with 15k base HP. With the reduced time to kill, the first cannot afford anymore to go full glass before being outsustained and now it's not clearly possible how you can do dmg while still having enough sustain....the 15k base HP can still afford to dmg without having to worry about HP. These little things tend to break the overall balance on the long run

Example: this time the playerbase complain about sustain and Anet goes: " we hear you..." and boom, they nerf healing burst across the board and happy is the community...but hey: stealth, blocks, 2nd HP bar, evades are all tools used to avoid death, right? And shouldn't they count as form of sustain?...sadly that simple thought  process never happens and so at the end of the broad change, only few professions suffer while few others become stronger than ever, and this what happen with broad changes.

In the end these rotating balance principles never get applied equally, they are always some number crunching or trait changes made to please the playerbase for a time.

• You're right. There are numerous factors intrinsic to a class that can affect its difficulty and the damage it should output beyond complexity. HP, weapons available, the efficiency of those weapons, the applications of those weapons all matter.
• Why are you equivocating that with lowering damage across the board? I did not ask for that, nor do I think that is the solution. The whole point of my steelman is to draw attention to the fact that there are base differences between the professions, and that those differences need to be considered when you are deciding whether a class should have its damage output adjusted because of its simplicity/in what way that damage should be adjusted. Whether or not Anet decides to do lopsided implementations of balancing direction is something they need to wrestle with.

What I said was:

Quote

 If complicated mechanics net you more damage, every class should have a complicated damage kit for competitive and pve, so that they can do damage if they learn it. If they want simple classes or playstyles to do less/be less effective, then it should be like that for every class. 

If you want classes to have more damage because they're more complicated, the simple classes should have complicated variants so they can do damage too.

If you want classes that have simple playstyles to do less because they're simple, the skills that comprise the simple playstyles should be adjusted, even on classes that are otherwise complex. The fact that Anet treats this with a cudgel often is not really part of the argument, the way I see it. It's unfortunate, but it's besides the point.

I am not attributing this to you, but to any other people that may be thinking it.

If, suddenly, there is a problem with adjusting simple playstyles that are within the realm of your class, that you otherwise do not have when advocating for that treatment to be applied to other classes, then we have a problem, because at that point you're arguing on entitlement. You want the complicated class to be strong 'cause its complicated, but don't want the other classes to have technical kits that challenge yours. You want the simple playstyles nerfed, but don't want the simple playstyles you're afforded included in that. If you're committing to this pill, take the whole pill, is all I'm saying. 

As far as I can tell, @Flowki.7194 is on board with applying that equitably, which is perfectly fine with me. As long as we're not making 5 page forum threads that have the main point of "buff me, nerf everyone else.". If you want the game to be treated differently for everyone, fine.

I'm tired of bonking silver player 9000 with a hammer/headbutt/(insert telegraphed thing here) that he had every opportunity to dodge and getting lectured on why it's unhealthy, when most other playstyles I could take to that encounter would instantly be steamrolled by baked-in trait and skill functionality, and the occasional "gf". If it's all that works, that's what's gonna happen, unless something else is provided. 

When something else is provided, nice. I am nothing if not flexible.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Myror.7521]

@Shagie.7612 the thing is. The reason why this 2 Builds are rly good rn is not the build itself. Its just that it get played full defensive so its hard to kill. While abusing an very obviously too good relic to actually somehow be still able to also do dmg. (Relic of akeem). Or simple as that using another too good relic for more Defence just to be not kill able in 1v1s. (Relic of Defence). Just nerf this relics and warr will going to be in absolute trash tier again ...... thats all im saying. While I just WANT them to nerf this stupid Builds btw cause well they are stupid and too easy to Play.

The difference between warr and other classes rn is....  They are still doing good. But they are easy just countered by other too good Builds (scrapper and deadeye) that finally need some real nerfs aswell. While warr is just simply tanky enough to hold this 2 classes at least a bit. 

[Shagie.7612]

16 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

Just nerf this relics and warr will going to be in absolute trash tier again

Condi Zerk was running rampant as a sidenoder before SotO came out, though.
Akeem just made it even dumber.

I don't think that's true at all.

[ccccc.4963]

37 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't think that's true at all.

It's not but the vocal peanut gallery on forums only speak in extremes where every class is on the wire atm and one change that isn't a direct buff???? guts my class bro!!!!!

[Myror.7521]

@Shagie.7612 i think the right way to nerf this class would be...... Not nerfing akeem but nerf dead or alife ^^. This way you would not just kill condi warr straight but instead nerf one of the most broken defensive mechanics means dead or alife heal ya for 3k+ life passive cause of conditions ticking on enemys while also been immune to Power DMG thx to savage instinct. However i got no idea how to nerf bsw without just killin it ^^

[Flowki.7194]

10 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

As far as I can tell, @Flowki.7194 is on board with applying that equitably, which is perfectly fine with me. As long as we're not making 5 page forum threads that have the main point of "buff me, nerf everyone else.". If you want the game to be treated differently for everyone, fine.

I'm tired of bonking silver player 9000 with a hammer/headbutt/(insert telegraphed thing here) that he had every opportunity to dodge and getting lectured on why it's unhealthy, when most other playstyles I could take to that encounter would instantly be steamrolled by baked-in trait and skill functionality, and the occasional "gf". If it's all that works, that's what's gonna happen, unless something else is provided. 

When something else is provided, nice. I am nothing if not flexible.

 

 

 

 

 

That is exactly what I am saying, simple specs are not a problem, but in order to have any insentive to LEARN more difficult specs, there has to be some reward in doing so. We can look at the game right now, power untamed as far as I know was the most difficult ranger spec, but since SB buffs, and condi untamed, I've never seen a decent power untamed player for months.

 

Hollow is a hard spec, but 70% of engis play mech, maybe 20% scrapper (In my experiance).

 

Hammer cata is a hard spec, but past or present, the most common ele is support/dps tempest. Its not as hard as hammer, and has much easier or reliable sustain/damage application, relitively speaking. There really is no room in this current game for hammer cata, which is now suprisingly hard limited by its non existant mobility. It is a kitten shame to see one of the hardest specs in the game completely outclassed by multiple easier specs. Some of the best fights I ever had in this game was on hammer vs a good power untamed. I mostly lost but thats not the point, now you face nothing but SB/condi rangers who do as much damage with half the effort.. while still having enough mobility to leave the fight.

 

Power vindi/herald are like hollow, decent effort/skill requirement, I never die to one and feel "robbed". Ren is sadly redundent despite being moderately difficult.. Ive tried all sorts of specs from power, condi, even to support, it doesnt work, its like that support gaurdian spec I can't even remember the name of. That said, the condi specs of rev are not easier mechanically, but they are definately more forgiving for some mistakes AKA on power you'd be dead. But then most condi spec varients work like that, and unfortunately some a far easier than others while still being highly effective. Im concious of continually picking on zerker now, but its true.

 

Zerker, for balance. Ive played a few zerkers that were not meme rifle or condi, just power zerkers. They were all good players, and despite me having some issues with warrior sustain overall (0 0 0 0), I'd much rather be fighting that type of zerker.

 

The point im trying to make here is the trend of easier specs becoming so effective, relative to their harder spec counterparts, that the harder specs in this game are fast becomming redundent. The more GOOD players that jump on the bandwaggon of these easier specs (gaurd in general is soaring in popularity now) makes the harder specs that much more intolerable unless you are a fking 10 year pro vet, which most of us are not.

 

Its nice to see that more people are finally getting past personal insults, and seeing the problem itself. The spec diversity is tanking, hard and fast.

 

I do think they need to reduce the effectiveness of a few of the eaier specs. Im not sure how that can be done, but atm the balance is so scewed away from complex specs (at least for non vets). I don't think you can buff the sustain/hp of more complex specs becuase no doubt they will just dominate higher level play. But, If you take specter as an example, it had the making of a decent high skill floor spec, but for some reason ANet completely bloated the kitten out of scepter 3, which litterally rock bottoms its skill floor. A RANGED spammable immob, poison, condi bomb on one button. It genuinely baffles me why this doesnt get as much heat as condi cata did. I don't see a lot of specters tbf, but that concept of bloated 1 button abilitys is just not good game design. If in some way thief gets a buff that somehow makes specter a lot more represented.. I mean god kitten; 3 3 3 33 3 3 33 333 33 33 3 3. Its Czerker waiting to happen all over again.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 so what you wanted to tell to everyone was just. Easy to learn builds shouldnt be this good as they are right now? Your just 100% reason right with this. Even Guys like me saying that current Meta warr builds are actually ways to easy to Play and i can not denie that xd

[Flowki.7194]

47 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 so what you wanted to tell to everyone was just. Easy to learn builds shouldnt be this good as they are right now? Your just 100% reason right with this. Even Guys like me saying that current Meta warr builds are actually ways to easy to Play and i can not denie that xd

Partly yes, but there are also some issues with specs that also have potential or current high skill floor. As example scepter 3 on specter. The power co-efficiants on hammer cata are very high, as are the co-efficiants on pheonix, fire grab and revenent hammer 2. These are issues that will become obvious if say, hammer cata gets more mobility, ele gets more hp (which I beleive it needs) and rev gets more of w/e is holding it back, such as energy costs. Hollow has eye watering amount of mobility, as does DD thief, which past a certain skill level makes them quite low risk (effectivivness is another thing). And so on.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:26 PM, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's funny how posts telling the truth always get drowned with sad emojis...truly a statement of what gw2 is about.

"the game punished for complexity" happens when a game studio goes through different balance philosophies when the developer teams keep rotating out of the job. The team who made elementalist and all core classes left anet and they got replaced by "a good class and great results should not mean complexity, on the contrary".......something.... something guardian main  

Since then we had things like dragon hunter...firebrand...scourge..and I don't need to keep going to get the point across, and the only reason elementalist is even in a decent spot is because an ele main player became an active balance dev. He redesigned many outdated utilities/traits/weapon, so let's be truthful here: elementalist is in a much better place than before he started and the game was in the hands of "complexity should not be rewarded".

For better or for worst, the game is in this state now and asking to neuter anything at this point would be wrong. The vast majority of the playerbase is used to "never dodge" sort of gameplay and you want to remove it...it's not gonna work, at least not as favourably as you think, they tried already with that by removing amulets, sigils from PvP...and that clearly backfired, it only deepened the chasm between professions at least in PvP, where the fundamental difference in base stats and mechanics, could not be covered anymore with gear.

No reason to remove tanky amulets when some professions got access to low CD base "facetanking" mechanics like reaper's shroud or evades or etc etc etc. Dragonhunter and CO& is already in the game, and the only way forward is to add something as simple to play to other professions to balance things out

Complexity shouldn't automatically mean more effective in a competitive space, especially they way u guys are putting it. What about a class that has more basic rotations and its more simple mechanical wise to play yet is also more difficult to be effective on due to its simple nature making it easier for players to counter, or makes playing the class difficult in nature due to timing of skills being more Important. What if the easier to play class has to have better situational awareness and or knowledge of other class to effectively fight well against them due to not having all the complex options/answers a class line ele has?

Theres a lot more to balancing classes than how hard a class is to play and let's not kid ourselves here, all gw2 classes are easy to play with lots of practice and non of the classes with practice are at a difficulty of use that warrants them any more power than another lmao. Unless u have a physical disability or such any class and it's rotations can be learned and committed to muscle memory in a short amount of time. As stated above there are more things at play of which can add to the complexity of class use vs mechanical rotation or number of skills of which could pose a positive or negative effect on a classes viability.

 Let's not pretend any further being a ele or engi player somehow constitutes the players mechanical superiority over other classes, cuz it doesn't at all.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Complexity shouldn't automatically mean more effective in a competitive space, especially they way u guys are putting it. What about a class that has more basic rotations and its more simple mechanical wise to play yet is also more difficult to be effective on due to its simple nature making it easier for players to counter, or makes playing the class difficult in nature due to timing of skills being more Important. What if the easier to play class has to have better situational awareness and or knowledge of other class to effectively fight well against them due to not having all the complex options/answers a class line ele has?

Theres a lot more to balancing classes than how hard a class is to play and let's not kid ourselves here, all gw2 classes are easy to play with lots of practice and non of the classes with practice are at a difficulty of use that warrants them any more power than another lmao. Unless u have a physical disability or such any class and it's rotations can be learned and committed to muscle memory in a short amount of time. As stated above there are more things at play of which can add to the complexity of class use vs mechanical rotation or number of skills of which could pose a positive or negative effect on a classes viability.

 Let's not pretend any further being a ele or engi player somehow constitutes the players mechanical superiority over other classes, cuz it doesn't at all.

The fact the spec is easier to play comes with that very compromise, it should be less effective than a class that is more complicated.

 

What you are litterally asking for is to have the same reward for half the work. Why? give me a solid reason why? If you want to be as effective as a high skill class, then learn to play a high skill class. Anything less is an attempt to not face facts because a player cannot be bothered to put in the work, but wants the reward. Its a very self entitled attitude, sorry to say.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Saiyan.1704]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The fact the spec is easier to play comes with that very compromise, it should be less effective than a class that is more complicated.

I whole heartedly disagree with this comment and absolutely loath the subject... of which, there is no correct answer because class difficult IS the way that it is and is not changeable.

What is fact: We HAVE classes that state they are "Easy" or "Difficult" in the character creation page. This isn't changing anytime soon, or ever.

If the AT Meta consisted of only "difficult" classes... because they are "hard to use, therefore they should be better than every other class"... then what is the point of even having other classes in PvP?

If that's the case then let's just have a full roster of Elementalists (which we have had, and it was a joke of a meta). This is a very dumb subject unless we're asking Anet to increase difficulty of every single class and update their character info page but that is never going to happen.

Also the most difficult class for Guard is probably Firebrand and I refuse to be pigeonholed into playing that spec 100% of the time.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Saiyan.1704

[Psycoprophet.8107]

47 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The fact the spec is easier to play comes with that very compromise, it should be less effective than a class that is more complicated.

 

What you are litterally asking for is to have the same reward for half the work. Why? give me a solid reason why? If you want to be as effective as a high skill class, then learn to play a high skill class. Anything less is an attempt to not face facts because a player cannot be bothered to put in the work, but wants the reward. Its a very self entitled attitude, sorry to say.

Ur first sentence show u have a very narrow grasp of balance nor the situation. Th8ef for example has builds like d/p which are known to be more difficult to be effective on. To do well u need to time ur skills and evades to not blow up, need knowledge of other class skills and burst rotations as well as good map awareness to kno where ur time is best spent. This and other thief builds are deemed hard difficulty on all builds sites excluding condi builds ofc. That all said mechanically thief is one of the easier classes. 

Let's take opposite example. Someone burst a mediocre ele that literally just cycles through its defensive attunements and skills basically becoming immune to condis, or ranged attacks(in past), or seems to be incredibly tanky due to all the healing and defensive options it has through its skills ontop of its utilities etc, doesn't ele having the extra answers to problems in itself make up for the minor increase in mechanical complexity? I think it does 100%

[Psycoprophet.8107]

20 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

I whole heartedly disagree with this comment and absolutely loath the subject... of which, there is no correct answer because class difficult IS the way that it is and is not changeable.

What is fact: We HAVE classes that state they are "Easy" or "Difficult" in the character creation page. This isn't changing anytime soon, or ever.

If the AT Meta consisted of only "difficult" classes... because they are "hard to use, therefor they should be better than every other class"... then what is the point of even having other classes in PvP?

If that's the case then let's just have a full roster of Elementalists (which we have had, and it was a joke of a meta). This is a very dumb subject unless we're asking Anet to increase difficulty of every single class and update their character info page but that is never going to happen.

Also the most difficult class is probably Firebrand and I refuse to be pigeonholed into playing that spec 100% of the time.

The problem is the difficulty is already present within every class, they are just caused by different parameters. Class could be mechanically easy to play but hard to perform well on due to other factors, for example be glassy and requires properly timed active defenses to be performed to avoid blowing up due to lack of non active defenses such as invulnerability skills, barriers etc. The role of the class may require more knowledge of the other classes or game mechanics vs other roles performed on more complex classes. There are far more ways for a class to be mechanically easier to play while being more difficult to do well on but the text walls already to big.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

I whole heartedly disagree with this comment and absolutely loath the subject... of which, there is no correct answer because class difficult IS the way that it is and is not changeable.

What is fact: We HAVE classes that state they are "Easy" or "Difficult" in the character creation page. This isn't changing anytime soon, or ever.

If the AT Meta consisted of only "difficult" classes... because they are "hard to use, therefore they should be better than every other class"... then what is the point of even having other classes in PvP?

If that's the case then let's just have a full roster of Elementalists (which we have had, and it was a joke of a meta). This is a very dumb subject unless we're asking Anet to increase difficulty of every single class and update their character info page but that is never going to happen.

Also the most difficult class for Guard is probably Firebrand and I refuse to be pigeonholed into playing that spec 100% of the time.

You can disagree all you like, but the fact of the matter is, you expect the same reward for half the effort, you cannot dress that up in any other way, its a bs mentallity, at least own it for what it is. If you want to be more effective, play a harder class/spec. You see the thing there? "IF" its a choice.. you are not forced to play a simple spec, but if you do, stop expecting the same reward. I don't play a support spec and then moan I don't do the damage of a dps.. thats directly the argument yours is in line with. If supports did as much dps as dps, then why the fk play dps? the same with easy specs, if they are as affective as hard specs (which some are now), why play a hard spec?... 90% of people don't now, and you kitten well know this, but you don't care.. as long as you can own on your easy spec. Easy and effective specs are systamtically destroying class/spec diversity in this game, hands down, unrefutable. Every game is 90% the easiest warrior/necro/gaurd specs. You don't want to be pigeion holed into firebrand, well poor you... but youre perfectly happy to pigioen hole others into having to work twise as hard for the same reward. Its self entitlement, nothing less.

 

The last game I just played, the enemy had a very good scepter cata, and an avg necro/WB. The cata is not easy to kill, becuase he was good. The avg necro and WB were just as difficult to kill as the cata, even though they were clearly not as good, thanks to their easier sustain. If those players were on a harder sustain spec like hollow or W/E.. I can garuntee they would drop in under 10 seconds, just like an avg cata does. But no, they didnt, they get the same effective sustain as a good cata, for free. That means no matter who I chose to attack, they have the effetive sustain as a good player, despite 2 of them not being a good player. Like hell if I will ever agree that is acceptable. Easy to play, fine.. but take the fking hit to effectiveness like a grown up.

 

#letsgetcondimechtomats

 

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Ur first sentence show u have a very narrow grasp of balance nor the situation. Th8ef for example has builds like d/p which are known to be more difficult to be effective on. To do well u need to time ur skills and evades to not blow up, need knowledge of other class skills and burst rotations as well as good map awareness to kno where ur time is best spent. This and other thief builds are deemed hard difficulty on all builds sites excluding condi builds ofc. That all said mechanically thief is one of the easier classes. 

Let's take opposite example. Someone burst a mediocre ele that literally just cycles through its defensive attunements and skills basically becoming immune to condis, or ranged attacks(in past), or seems to be incredibly tanky due to all the healing and defensive options it has through its skills ontop of its utilities etc, doesn't ele having the extra answers to problems in itself make up for the minor increase in mechanical complexity? I think it does 100%

 

I don't even know what you are getting at here? Tempest has good sustain, but it litterally has to, its a support spec that has to be able to engage with group fights and not fking melt in 2 seconds (which it absolutely does if you fk up). All I can tell you is, try core gaurd, try tempest, try revenent support. It will become very obvious to you which one of those specs has the most forgiving sustain. Then we can talk about punishments for mistakes properly.

 

You are talking about thief game sense as if its special.. any roamer has the exact same skill. True, some roamers don't explode when attacked.. but they also don't have god like mobility/stealth to back cap and +1 in the most lowest risk gameplay that is possible in gw2. There is nothing hard about learning how to +1.. its actrually just a matter of restraint, which the average thief doesn't have, becuase they get cocky. DD thief is just restraint, I dunno what else to say, its mobility is no more difficult to get use to than any roamer mobility, yet at the same time a lot of thiefs damage is just 2 spam on dagger and bow (if I remember right, maybe its bow 3?). The damage application was actually a let down for me, I was expecting something more complex, but it just isnt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Saiyan.1704]

44 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You can disagree all you like, but the fact of the matter is, you expect the same reward for half the effort, you cannot dress that up in any other way, its a bs mentallity, at least own it for what it is. If you want to be more effective, play a harder class/spec.

Either you play a class with 100% efficiency or you don't. Pro gamers in Plat2 don't sweat harder for playing the piano class Cata any more than they would if they were playing Guardian... because they already play these specs to their efficiency.

Labeling a player "not as good because the class is easier" is such a huge fallacy....

Edited December 28, 2023 by Saiyan.1704

[Axelteas.7192]

Willbender is a broken bully, nerf him asap!

[Flowki.7194]

15 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Either you play a class with 100% efficiency or you don't. Pro gamers in Plat2 don't sweat harder for playing the piano class Cata any more than they would if they were playing Guardian... because they already play these specs to their efficiency.

Labeling a player "not as good because the class is easier" is such a huge fallacy....

What are you even talking about? good players play easy specs, good players play hard specs. The difference is.. bad players on easy specs are HARDER to punish than bad players on hard specs. But what you want... is not only for the easy specs to be less punishing as hard specs, but also to be as effective as hard specs (give them a free ride to the skill ceiling). The option to play an easy spec is fine, I have no problem with that, but its a step too far to say "I want the option to play and easy spec AND for it to be as effective as a hard spec". The problem with these easier specs is their sustain, not their damage. I do not think any spec should get a free ride on sustain.. becuase that limits your ability to punish them for blatent mistakes. Or are you suggesting only hard specs should be punished for mistakes? Easier specs doing damage in an easier way, fine.. thats enough.. but currently they are doing both. Easy damage and easy sustain.

 

Answer this directly. I think that a person who takes the time to get good on a hard spec should not be equally matched by a spec that takes way less time to learn, becuase it spits in the face of the person who took on a much steeper learning curve. Give me one actual reason why you think that is justified, Ive just gave you a solid reason why it isn't.

[Saiyan.1704]

Just now, Flowki.7194 said:

Answer this directly. I think that a person who takes the time to get good on a hard spec should not be equally matched by a spec that takes way less time to learn, becuase it spits in the face of the person who took on a much steeper learning curve. Give me one actual reason why you think that is justified, Ive just gave you a solid reason why it isn't.

I feel Plat players should play with other Plat players. Also don't immediately assume one class or spec takes "so much more time to use" vs another class or spec. Again, that's a fallacy.

[Bunbury.8472]

talk to me about a legit hard build rn. tell me what's hard about it.

I keep hearing mecha is easier than holo, this seems wild to me.

mecha is so bad you can't win against good players, and holo was played in the last AT by top players in EU.

feel like mecha may seem easier if they player is unable to use their brain to learn, but if they can they will top out on the build quickly and be unable to win. whereas holo has the tools to win, so despite having more buttons to press, the fact you have all these buttons to press to make you win makes it easier. ofc just speaking from my experience, and experience of members of the discord gang who've picked up the game.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Bunbury.8472

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

2 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

The problem is the difficulty is already present within every class, they are just caused by different parameters. Class could be mechanically easy to play but hard to perform well on due to other factors, for example be glassy and requires properly timed active defenses to be performed to avoid blowing up due to lack of non active defenses such as invulnerability skills, barriers etc. The role of the class may require more knowledge of the other classes or game mechanics vs other roles performed on more complex classes. There are far more ways for a class to be mechanically easier to play while being more difficult to do well on but the text walls already to big.

Correct.

But given that Anet seems to be unable to reward that properly....

[Flowki.7194]

5 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

I feel Plat players should play with other Plat players. Also don't immediately assume one class or spec takes "so much more time to use" vs another class or spec. Again, that's a fallacy.

 

Like hell it is.. Ive played many specs, and its absolutely obvious there is steep curves, and shallow curves. Game sense is a general, universal skill that should not be conflated with spec difficulty. But thats what people do.