Can someone please explain why Condition damage is the most burst type of damage in the game?

[Khalisto.5780]

aren't you pressing all your skills with 7+ stacks of confusion?

[Eddbopkins.2630]

If power amulets can't have toughness or vit at an effective level, neither should condition amulets. Having a class that (cough cough necro) has 27k hp along with either another at least 15k+ pocket health bar or 15k+barrier generation is completely unreasonable. How can a guardian or thf or ele compete with that. You get 8+conditions on you only to remove the 3 that don't do damage, you can't dodge a condi tick and there's only so much condition clearing one can put into their build before they become ineffective to kill. 

Condition damage is heavily favored right now by the devs it seems. Most if not all the new weapons will be condition based damage as well. This is has nowhere else to go but down with this kind of leadership.

Condition damage is not fun to play or play against. 

Edited January 8 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Frequency.6407]

2 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

If power amulets can't have toughness or vit at an effective level, neither should condition amulets. Having a class that (cough cough necro) has 27k hp along with either another at least 15k+ pocket health bar or 15k+barrier generation is completely unreasonable. How can a guardian or thf or ele compete with that. You get 8+conditions on you only to remove the 3 that don't do damage, you can't dodge a condi tick and there's only so much condition clearing one can put into their build before they become ineffective to kill. 

Condition damage is heavily favored right now by the devs it seems. Most if not all the new weapons will be condition based damage as well. This is has nowhere else to go but down with this kind of leadership.

Condition damage is not fun to play or play against. 

Necro doesn't have any blocks (ignore harb) and needs that extra hp/bar to compensate. I mean necros are the juiciest targets in teamplay because you know outside 2 dodges they can't do anything against your attacks and have to eat everything.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 1/7/2024 at 10:04 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

Argument for who tries to deprove it: I play a build with 1 active cleanse (3 condis) and 2 1-2 passive cleansing each 10 seconds depending if I change to that weapon. And I can manage more then fine in heavy condi fights.

All I have to say is...reapplication rate.

You probably survive the fights as the player skill is so low now that most rely on traps or other ground targets to burst with.  So, you can avoid the entire burst by staying out of the range of a trap/well/etc., and that's pretty easy to do when lot of times they are highlighted in literal red.    

But, a good condi bunker will always outlive a power burst--you will survive any power burst as they can only hit 15-16k--but probably more like 10-12k with toughness, so you can take 2-3 of these with the 25k+ HP you have on a condi bunker build.

Once a power build has done the burst they must kite and or switch to mitigation.  There aren't enough cleanses for this on a burst build and eventually the bunker either wins (as good condi bunkers also carry plenty of CC) or outrotates--just by reapplying conditions like poison/chill and not even really using ANY active defenses, just toughness + vit.

The tldr; is cond is the most 'burst' at the moment because you can reapply it at least twice if not three times in the timespan it takes to pull off a power burst.  You also get access to a LOT more defense as you don't have three stats to worry about (power, precision, ferocity)---you have one...condition damage. 

 

Edited January 8 by Gotejjeken.1267

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

All I have to say is...reapplication rate.

You probably survive the fights as the player skill is so low now that most rely on traps or other ground targets to burst with.  So, you can avoid the entire burst by staying out of the range of a trap/well/etc., and that's pretty easy to do when lot of times they are highlighted in literal red.    

But, a good condi bunker will always outlive a power burst--you will survive any power burst as they can only hit 15-16k--but probably more like 10-12k with toughness, so you can take 2-3 of these with the 25k+ HP you have on a condi bunker build.

Once a power build has done the burst they must kite and or switch to mitigation.  There aren't enough cleanses for this on a burst build and eventually the bunker either wins (as good condi bunkers also carry plenty of CC) or outrotates--just by reapplying conditions like poison/chill and not even really using ANY active defenses, just toughness + vit.

The tldr; is cond is the most 'burst' at the moment because you can reapply it at least twice if not three times in the timespan it takes to pull off a power burst.  You also get access to a LOT more defense as you don't have three stats to worry about (power, precision, ferocity)---you have one...condition damage. 

 

I know many builds with power orientated that can keep high pressure and some burst along with it too.

But are you talking about duels or teamfights in arena? Because if you expect a roamer/dps to win from a duelist build on node, then it becomes little hard condi or no condi duelist build. And if you want to compete for node holding with aoe condi then it becomes little hard because that's their role and not yours. So if that's the problem, it's because your role is not build from it.

You can't expect for example a glass canon thief/mesmer to stay competing on node with a duelist build. The one who outsustains becomes clear.

So outrotate them and when they make a mistake and you or others get the chance, kill that one fast +1 and you have snowball effect going because outrotated their team earlier.

 

And yes, there are always chances you van 1v1 kill them if you outskill them a lot ofcourse, but that's not the point 

[Shagie.7612]

5 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

If power amulets can't have toughness or vit at an effective level, neither should condition amulets.

They have to, though.
Outside of a huge burn spike, condi doesn't burst that hard, and is mitigated in two ways compared to power's one (dodging the attack itself and then removing the condi if you do get hit). 

I do get where you're coming from though and there's a handful of condi builds that can get away with eating a lot of hits to the face and it should be towned down.
Just outright removing it wouldn't work though.

Anyways, I think GW1 handled condi/power balance and playstyle better but without dedicated healers it wouldn't work that well in GW2.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I know many builds with power orientated that can keep high pressure and some burst along with it too.

Would be interested to know which are like this?

The opposite is say DH, can burst you with condis and be a duelist or team fight if they carefully place the traps because it gives them built in node denial--all with a condition slant.  

High pressure to me implies on node or in a team fight, and I don't know the last time a power build was threatening there.  For me, if you avoid the burst then that power build has to rotate--not the same for condi builds which can burst, duel, and teamfight with the same setup.  

Edited January 9 by Gotejjeken.1267

[arazoth.7290]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Would be interested to know which are like this?

Willbender, a good holo, revenant, some mirage build I saw somebody use, power reaper, Soulbeast still, ele.

Might have missed some, but these are what comes to make mind.

If you say that with a support these get denied in team fight, same can be said about condi. Giving allies resolution, cleanses, projectile denial both condi or power, aegis to deny the initial attack that applies condis same for denying power damage.

 

Aswell with condi/power can damage be regular reapplied, with the right build.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Willbender, a good holo, revenant, some mirage build I saw somebody use, power reaper, Soulbeast still, ele.

No spellbreaker? Was thinking more of spellbreaker vs DH atm--or even power soulbeast vs Druid / condi untamed--eventually those condis wear a power build out....

[Korendil.5934]

8 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

They have to, though.
Outside of a huge burn spike, condi doesn't burst that hard, and is mitigated in two ways compared to power's one (dodging the attack itself and then removing the condi if you do get hit). 

But why should condi be able to burst at all? It's completely non-sensical, a damage over time build should not have burst, because then they have it all which is inherantly broken. Even more so due to the robustness of their amulets. It should be one or the other, because a burst condi meta is not fun to play against and further alienates a somewhat dwindling spvp playerbase. 

I understand from a current condi burster enjoyer that this isn't their idea of fun, but at some point even they have to acknowledge that its broken.

[Shagie.7612]

2 minutes ago, Korendil.5934 said:

I understand from a current condi burster enjoyer

lol okay

The only burst condition is burning, and it's only like one build that can actually stack it up quickly, that being some sort of cheesey burn guard, and you still have at least a couple ticks to respond.

Condi builds absolutely have a longer TTK when in the same situations as power builds. If you get hit by everything and fail to remove it then yeah of course you're gonna die fairly quickly, GW2 is a fast game, you'd have been dead even faster from a power build rather than in multiple seconds.

What do you actually want here? Like honestly.
Do you want condis to be like 30s durations by default or something, and their damage based on that, so you have an eternity to figure out you got a ton of them on you and to press your removal button? 
Because the only way you'd balance that out would be by significantly reducing and removing condition removal, and then you'd be right back here talking about how you rotted away without any ability to respond.

I play something with some of the worst condi removal and worst sustain in the entire game and even when I screw up or run out of removal, the death isn't that fast. It's multiple ticks.
How much slower do you want it to be?

[arazoth.7290]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

No spellbreaker? Was thinking more of spellbreaker vs DH atm--or even power soulbeast vs Druid / condi untamed--eventually those condis wear a power build out....

 

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

No spellbreaker? Was thinking more of spellbreaker vs DH atm--or even power soulbeast vs Druid / condi untamed--eventually those condis wear a power build out....

spb doesn't has high continuosly damage + bursts in it. If you go full glass, you have a few burst but not so much compared to glass canon zerker. 

And why are you talking again about duelist playstyle 1v1 a dps/roaming build that isn't build to 1v1 that on node...

And condi dh??? in teamfight is easier to pressure then power dh if you want to enter traps.

Tip: don't 1v1 duelist on something that isn't made to be duelist. Unless you far outskill them that it becomes easy. Or if you're practicing in ffa to survive them longer and can learn to outskill them better for such rare occassions... . Otherwise skipp and outrotate them, kill them with +1 fast if they position wrong on map gg

[Korendil.5934]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

lol okay

The only burst condition is burning, and it's only like one build that can actually stack it up quickly, that being some sort of cheesey burn guard, and you still have at least a couple ticks to respond.

 

So you admit there is condi burst, then? That's an inherant gameplay problem. You cannot argue against that.

Also, out of interest, who would win a teamfight between 5 condi users and 5 power users equally skilled? I think we know. Power does not stand a chance, because condi is broken. Too much dmg and inherantly tanky.

[Shagie.7612]

28 minutes ago, Korendil.5934 said:

So you admit there is condi burst, then?

It's relative? It's bursty compared to normal condis but you still can't really compare a burn guard's burst to say, nades on a scrapper or something. The time difference is still there, it still matters.
It's not an inherent gameplay problem, plenty of "dot specs" can burst in other pvp mmos. There's nothing wrong with them popping cooldowns and having a damage increase, lol

30 minutes ago, Korendil.5934 said:

Also, out of interest, who would win a teamfight between 5 condi users and 5 power users equally skilled? I think we know.

Do we?
What happens when the power specs are something like Holo, which has incredible condi removal? Or the condi specs are something without significant cover application?

There's more meta power specs than condi right now. If anything this game's meta balance has been largely power dominated for almost its entire life.

I think you're utterly lost and looking for anything you can blame because you're mad about losing instead of trying to figure out how the game works.
You'll fit in perfectly with everyone else.

[Korendil.5934]

3 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I think you're utterly lost and looking for anything you can blame because you're mad about losing instead of trying to figure out how the game works.
You'll fit in perfectly with everyone else.

I think I'm frustrated at a one-sided condi meta where it's a case of "if you can't beat them, join them" - and the damage profile, regardless of how you swing it, is bursty despite it being damage over time. It's not right. It's alienating the player base as power builds are not viable.

[Shagie.7612]

1 minute ago, Korendil.5934 said:

It's alienating the player base as power builds are not viable.

quality bait

lol

actually i wanna see it now
post gameplay footage of you getting condi bursted and how your power build isn't viable
it'll be informative

Edited January 9 by Shagie.7612

[Korendil.5934]

7 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

quality bait

lol

actually i wanna see it now
post gameplay footage of you getting condi bursted and how your power build isn't viable
it'll be informative

Provide me with a list of all the viable power build warriors.

[Shagie.7612]

2 minutes ago, Korendil.5934 said:

Provide me with a list of all the viable power build warriors.

Bladesworn literally got played in multiple matches in this last monthly? I'd say that counts as pretty viable. Shows up plenty in ranked too.
Spellbreaker isn't actually that bad either. It's certainly not meta, and you'd lose to an equally played meta sidenoder as expected, but it's not horrible.

[Kuma.1503]

Hear me out now. 

Bring Barbarian and toughness amulets back. We have Carrion/Rabid. Why not the power equivalent? 

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

And why are you talking again about duelist playstyle 1v1 a dps/roaming build that isn't build to 1v1 that on node...

Who says duelist beside you directing it that way?

An example, Scourge in a teamfight is going to be more effective with condispam / burst than any sustained power damage from say power FB, power Tempest, or power Druid support.  As again, one stat versus three...  

I mean, we all know that burst isn't just burning anymore.  With Demon Queen, poison bursts are a real threat now, and we've always had things like chill and blind that are strong no matter where you are on the map besides maybe afk in spawn...

[Flowki.7194]

I don't think its the condi damage per say, its the specs that pump out spammable confusion/poison, it outdoes most reasonable clense, especially in group fights, and is essentially a death sentence. Power builds tend to have higher CD abilitys that you can dodge to swing fights, thats not the same with these specs spamming confusion/poison. Easy poison application+queen is probably the most broken thing atm, a heal that should be 5k, is now 2.5k, which is basically a 2.5k hit ontop of the condi damage you took. It allows specs like specter to win fights even though they face tanked more damage and ate more CC. But really, thats how DH is working on the power side, they get away with not having to dodge thanks to front loaded block spam, yet are able to severely punish other specs for missing 1 key dodge during that duration. 

Edited January 9 by Flowki.7194

[GrayListen.3587]

Just want to add a bit onto this.

Condi builds are definitely powerful, particularly in smaller scale fights - however, it's important to keep in mind that this game has 3 modes.  And sure, this is the "PvP" forum, but the various playstyles are utilized in multiple modes and scenarios of various sizes and while condi bunkers are powerful in small-scale PvP, almost all of their damage gets negated passively in larger scale fights (WvW) or even just facing a team with solid condi cleanse.  Power, generally, doesn't have to worry as much about outright damage negation.  Sure, blocks exist, dodges exist, but building up conditions does take time and in addition to the same things that negate a power hit (dodge, block, invulnerability, etc) - the damage recipient usually also has a good few seconds afterwards to cleanse a majority of that damage.

The 2nd point I want to make which I haven't seen mentioned here - but I think it's super important...

Conditions can be transferred (and converted, etc).

A power build does not have to worry about its damage coming back to kill the user, generally speaking (short of projectile reflects, which is usually "oh dang, gotta wait a sec").  But you can transfer a condi user's conditions back onto them.  Worse, you can transfer stacks accumulated from multiple people onto enemy players.  Not many people run builds with condi transfers, but they can be very bad news for condi builds - particularly if a condi user isn't able to cleanse off of themselves what they're able to dish out.

The amount of people I have had essentially defeat themselves with stacks of burning, torment, confusion - sometimes even more than they gave me (due to receiving extra stacks from their teammates), via condition transfer, is quite a lot.

[Spellhunter.9675]

There is a condiburst. It is the only possible way to play condibuild nowadays. Many builds have too much condicleanse per minute and sustain.
There are more power builds in meta than condi.
5 powerbuilds vs 5 condibuilds teamfight will be decided not by damage type.
OP needs a reality check.
 

[Korendil.5934]

5 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

There is a condiburst. It is the only possible way to play condibuild nowadays. Many builds have too much condicleanse per minute and sustain.
There are more power builds in meta than condi.
5 powerbuilds vs 5 condibuilds teamfight will be decided not by damage type.
OP needs a reality check.
 

If these 'many builds' need to deviate from their desired spec to run cleanse - which may or may not cleanse the right condi -  let alone in the <1 second burst window of which you're going to get drilled; it's not really a power build, is it? Your spec is made to counter something, and at the direct cost of your ability to spec into something that does more damage. Condi specs do not suffer from this, they can spec into what they want with relative impunity. 

[arazoth.7290]

13 hours ago, TwoListen.9047 said:

Conditions can be transferred (and converted, etc).

A power build does not have to worry about its damage coming back to kill the user, generally speaking (short of projectile reflects, which is usually "oh dang, gotta wait a sec").  But you can transfer a condi user's conditions back onto them.  Worse, you can transfer stacks accumulated from multiple people onto enemy players.  Not many people run builds with condi transfers, but they can be very bad news for condi builds - particularly if a condi user isn't able to cleanse off of themselves what they're able to dish out.

The amount of people I have had essentially defeat themselves with stacks of burning, torment, confusion - sometimes even more than they gave me (due to receiving extra stacks from their teammates), via condition transfer, is quite a lot.

The irony, undone by their own doing, got to love it 👌