My Breakdown of the current state of gw2 PvP

[Deus Fatorum.2473]

Let me start off by stating a few things, I have played gw2 since release, and I mostly do pvp and some wvw. This is NOT a "I hate gw2, I am uninstalling" post, nor a x, y, and z class is busted pls nerf post, but rather a more overall look at the state of the gamemode and the problems it does, and will face going forward. Also this is just my personal opinion here.

First I would like to point at the pros,

-Decent Combat Feel

-Potential for interesting theory crafting

-Potential for diverse builds and playstyles

-Everyone has level stats/even playing field(in theory)**

-ping/fps forgiving comparatively to other competitive games

If gw2 pvp received more attention as an overall gamemode it could have the potential to thrive, the combat is actually really fun compared to other mmo/arena games out right now. Also how many competitive non turn based pvp games can be played on 200ping and 30fps and still be enjoyable... However there are some very good reasons why it is not thriving, and why supporting it now in it's current state would likely be a waste of arena net resources.

 

So now the problems it faces,

GW2, and GW1 have always prided themselves on a more horizontal progression curve, meaning not grinding the next best gear stats, you hit max level and then you play the content, not the gear treadmill. Getting max level/stats is not a burdensome endeavor in gw2 compared to other mmos, even more so in pvp where you start at max level with access to full stat loadouts on entering the lobby. So what is the problem, you might ask, well the problem here lies in the content bloat. While I cannot speak for PvE, the content bloat really hurts gw2 PvP as an overall gamemode, in that new players have a steeper wall to climb to be competitive.

When the game first launched there were 8 classes, you only had to learn how to fight and play those eight classes and you were generally well off mechanically, then you could learn how the maps/game mode played. However, now there are 9 classes each with a unique additional spec for each expansion(minus SotO) so base spec, plus HoT, PoF, and EoD, thus we went from 8 to a whopping 36. In addition they have added 2 new boons quickness resistance and alacrity, and three more conditions, slow, confusion taunt, and torment. If I were a new player I would need to figure out how to fight all these specs and learn all their animations to be competitive, all while fighting players that have not only mastered those specs, but have vastly more game knowledge of the game mode. 

New Players are faced with this huge wall, and cannot get to enjoy what this mode has to offer unless they first bang their head against it long enough, and eventually climb it. With the inability to get new players into the mode, the population has slowly dwindled as new and older players leave. This in return makes it harder for any decent matchmaking to occur, thus more players leave.

Now the population is so small, and the gamemode is so under represented, it is no surprise arena net has pulled resources away from it, why shouldn't they? Even if all the pvp players were whales and buying gems like no tomorrow it would be a tiny fraction of what other players of other gamemodes spend on the game. Meaning less attention to class balance, and worsening matchmaking is only likely to get worse, and as more content gets added to the game, the more that wall will grow, however if they stop adding content the horizontal progression ends and so does the game. 

 

TLDR;

As a game that touted esports at launch the pvp scene is in dire straights, while far from dead, it's ability to bring in new players and retain them is abysmal, and unless you understand the mode it is not a particularly fun game to watch or play, so dropping the esport was probably the right call. however it is actually a fun game mode at it's heart. What made the game great, it's horizontal progression, is now becoming a big hurdle for new players. If Anet could find a way to bring a competitive pvp arena style mode to existence that avoided these pitfalls it could probably be wildly successful if supported, unfortunately I just do not see it happening in gw2, where the limited resources are better spent elsewhere from there point of view.

 

Last thoughts,

While PvP in gw2 may be fated to a slow death. I hope anet learns that it had amazing potential, the mode is actually quite fun, the combat is amazing(especially for a game as old as gw2), should anet ever make a new IP, or a spin off of gw2 and make a arena style 3rd person game that resembled gw2's pvp as a standalone with the pros of gw2 style combat/builds it would have potential imo, especially if they avoid the pitfalls. However that is me hoping for something that may never come.

Edited January 9 by Deus Fatorum.2473

[Aesthetic Quietus.5346]

This really resonates with the conversation I had with my brother. I played A LOT back in vanilla. I got pretty good at pvp on my thief. I mostly took a break from then till now. I played sparingly up until a few months ago and got my brother to get the game. Now there are 4 xpacs. The sheer amount of sub classes is daunting when in pvp. It’s this “I wonder what this class can do to me?”  That and I don’t have all 40 sub class icons memorized. It’s a pretty time consuming thing to learn what every class and subclass abilities to watch out for. Now factor in all the weapon sets everyone has. It really is an encyclopedia of knowledge required to be competitive at really even a middle level. 
 

One thing I think would help is maybe having two icons for every class? One for the core class and next to it the subclass. Or just something to indicate “this is a guardian” alongside their subclass. 

[The Ace.9105]

12 hours ago, Deus Fatorum.2473 said:

Let me start off by stating a few things, I have played gw2 since release, and I mostly do pvp and some wvw. This is NOT a "I hate gw2, I am uninstalling" post, nor a x, y, and z class is busted pls nerf post, but rather a more overall look at the state of the gamemode and the problems it does, and will face going forward. Also this is just my personal opinion here.

First I would like to point at the pros,

-Decent Combat Feel

-Potential for interesting theory crafting

-Potential for diverse builds and playstyles

-Everyone has level stats/even playing field(in theory)**

-ping/fps forgiving comparatively to other competitive games

If gw2 pvp received more attention as an overall gamemode it could have the potential to thrive, the combat is actually really fun compared to other mmo/arena games out right now. Also how many competitive non turn based pvp games can be played on 200ping and 30fps and still be enjoyable... However there are some very good reasons why it is not thriving, and why supporting it now in it's current state would likely be a waste of arena net resources.

 

So now the problems it faces,

GW2, and GW1 have always prided themselves on a more horizontal progression curve, meaning not grinding the next best gear stats, you hit max level and then you play the content, not the gear treadmill. Getting max level/stats is not a burdensome endeavor in gw2 compared to other mmos, even more so in pvp where you start at max level with access to full stat loadouts on entering the lobby. So what is the problem, you might ask, well the problem here lies in the content bloat. While I cannot speak for PvE, the content bloat really hurts gw2 PvP as an overall gamemode, in that new players have a steeper wall to climb to be competitive.

When the game first launched there were 8 classes, you only had to learn how to fight and play those eight classes and you were generally well off mechanically, then you could learn how the maps/game mode played. However, now there are 9 classes each with a unique additional spec for each expansion(minus SotO) so base spec, plus HoT, PoF, and EoD, thus we went from 8 to a whopping 36. In addition they have added 2 new boons quickness and alacrity, and three more conditions, slow, confusion, and torment. If I were a new player I would need to figure out how to fight all these specs and learn all their animations to be competitive, all while fighting players that have not only mastered those specs, but have vastly more game knowledge of the game mode. 

New Players are faced with this huge wall, and cannot get to enjoy what this mode has to offer unless they first bang their head against it long enough, and eventually climb it. With the inability to get new players into the mode, the population has slowly dwindled as new and older players leave. This in return makes it harder for any decent matchmaking to occur, thus more players leave.

Now the population is so small, and the gamemode is so under represented, it is no surprise arena net has pulled resources away from it, why shouldn't they? Even if all the pvp players were whales and buying gems like no tomorrow it would be a tiny fraction of what other players of other gamemodes spend on the game. Meaning less attention to class balance, and worsening matchmaking is only likely to get worse, and as more content gets added to the game, the more that wall will grow, however if they stop adding content the horizontal progression ends and so does the game. 

 

TLDR;

As a game that touted esports at launch the pvp scene is in dire straights, while far from dead, it's ability to bring in new players and retain them is abysmal, and unless you understand the mode it is not a particularly fun game to watch or play, so dropping the esport was probably the right call. however it is actually a fun game mode at it's heart. What made the game great, it's horizontal progression, is now becoming a big hurdle for new players. If Anet could find a way to bring a competitive pvp arena style mode to existence that avoided these pitfalls it could probably be wildly successful if supported, unfortunately I just do not see it happening in gw2, where the limited resources are better spent elsewhere from there point of view.

 

Last thoughts,

While PvP in gw2 may be fated to a slow death. I hope anet learns that it had amazing potential, the mode is actually quite fun, the combat is amazing(especially for a game as old as gw2), should anet ever make a new IP, or a spin off of gw2 and make a arena style 3rd person game that resembled gw2's pvp as a standalone with the pros of gw2 style combat/builds it would have potential imo, especially if they avoid the pitfalls. However that is me hoping for something that may never come.

Yup, the game is way too fast paced for newer players with all these specs etc. that it's the case of "it'll start being fun after hundreds of hours, trust me bro". Unfortunately, the high tier players don't share this view and if you try to fight for it you'll get banned from community discords.

[Bunbury.8472]

also, new accounts are ranked at 1200 rating (gold 1), so new players are also expected to get farmed by vets until they drop in rank.... excellent player retention strategy there anet

 

I feel like a lot of the current complaints are just skill mismatch issues, not even balance a lot of the time 😅

Edited January 7 by Bunbury.8472

[Falan.1839]

What you are saying isn't wrong, but there also isn't really a solution to it. It's just a consequence of the game being over 10 years old at this point. Veteran players would bore themselves to death even more than they already are if we were still at the pace and complexity the game had during core, and already find the lack of new content frustrating now. For new players however the content that we got (in the form of elite specs) has already made the game increasingly complex and the skill curve very steep. This wouldn't be that much of an issue if the pvp community had sufficient population levels and the influx of new players was big enough for them to be with each other until they start climbing, but the lack of population means that isnt the case and you will get players of vastly different skill and experience levels in the same game, making it unfun for all sides.

Edited January 7 by Falan.1839

[The Ace.9105]

The amount of veterans from thousands or potential thousands is approx closer to 100 players. The fact that the new players already had a feeling that they had a chance when some not that great builds like signet cata was meta due to it not insta dying to random stuff shows that there's things that could be improved for the mode to grow.

I am not saying that the solution is a bunker meta of toxic builds like scepter cata but the overall speed of combat has to come down from popping a pack of adderall pre game to levels where a gamer can have a feeling that they can do something. Even in builds like vindi support that the top scene has decided not to play due to the unfun amount of support and healing it has you still have to play like you are on adderall to play it correctly.

The hardstuck old players are full doomers and don't believe in anything and that's why they want to just keep the game "for themselves" as long as it lasts with the cost of just killing the pvp side and it to have no chance of recovering from the get go just when we got a new flow of players in.

The hardstuck players will still keep playing the game anyway and they will still retain the same positions in the ladder regardless of what shape the meta is.

But hey, you do you. Everyone with this doomer mentality has lost all their rights to complain about the matchmaking in any capacity when slowing down the game to the level where people can play the game is literally the only solution to make it all better.

tl;dr

Pvp is dead and it's not gonna become any better partly cause the community has given up and wants it to die.

Edited January 7 by The Ace.9105

[ccccc.4963]

53 minutes ago, The Ace.9105 said:

The hardstuck old players are

silver qing for titles in season 3X

[CursedSaviour.6357]

OP make some great points but I do not want anyone to forget that the inclusion of legendaries in spvp has been equally detrimental. So many people are playing spvp for legendary items, not necessarily because they love the game mode. They do not care enough to try to win, as long as they eventually get what they want. Show me a garbage player playing a meta build in league and I show you someone farming the Ascension or Transcendence. Spvp is degrading from a competitive league to a theme park ride for the playerbase.

Anet doesn't care about spvp, but the playerbase killed it a long time ago.

[Hotride.2187]

You really dont have to learn to fight all specs (including condi and power variants) cause most of them are crap. Just a few cookie cutters that change once in a while. Its not that much of a big deal if you enjoy the combat.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

sPVP being small isn't a balance thing, its because anet has historically been horrible at tutorials.  There is no tutorial in WvW and there is no tutorial in sPvP--just some random 'training golems' and a super toxic lobby.

That, and the same maps have been around for years with the same dated three-point capture mechanic.  Doesn't help most if not all of the maps are imbalanced for mobility / port in some way--especially stuff like Khylo.  So, if you don't take any of that, you are just going to be killed in transit and quit the mode.

Sure, high-ranking alts queing in unranked doesn't help matters (presuming new players start there), but that's always a 50/50 whether you get them on your team or not.  

Wouldn't want the combat slowed down at all, as that's what makes it different than other games.  Every class has its defenses, if someone doesn't learn to use them it's entirely on them.  There are overperforming builds and super bad decisions (blind spam, aegis spam, invuln spam, reflect spam, etc.) but not sure if that really drives player retention away as much as everything else does.  

[The Ace.9105]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

sPVP being small isn't a balance thing, its because anet has historically been horrible at tutorials.  There is no tutorial in WvW and there is no tutorial in sPvP--just some random 'training golems' and a super toxic lobby.

That, and the same maps have been around for years with the same dated three-point capture mechanic.  Doesn't help most if not all of the maps are imbalanced for mobility / port in some way--especially stuff like Khylo.  So, if you don't take any of that, you are just going to be killed in transit and quit the mode.

Sure, high-ranking alts queing in unranked doesn't help matters (presuming new players start there), but that's always a 50/50 whether you get them on your team or not.  

Wouldn't want the combat slowed down at all, as that's what makes it different than other games.  Every class has its defenses, if someone doesn't learn to use them it's entirely on them.  There are overperforming builds and super bad decisions (blind spam, aegis spam, invuln spam, reflect spam, etc.) but not sure if that really drives player retention away as much as everything else does.  

There was a tutorial and it was core -> hot -> pof. Now it's just pick the build and get carried by it unless you are a hardcore gamer that has the ability to have high reaction time to multiple things in which case, every class will do and you perform better on them than 99% of the players. Idk if you remember but the game used to be way more balanced and way slower back in the days and it was more fun back then while also being accessible for new players. Even from the veterans, not many play with the speed that you are supposed to play at high competitive level but top 100 is top 100.

The average gw2 player can barely use auto attack with autotargeting turned on and the skills needed for pvp are way way beyond that level. At least we could get some of the players who are some amount above that average but right now, the curve to actually learn how to play the game is solely dependent on if you have a lucky build in that balance patch that allows you to perform against the speed of the players that are way beyond your experience.

I do agree that with todays standard, there's nothing to tell ppl what you are supposed to do in the game itself but there's quite good guides outside of the game for ppl who want to get into content. The hard part is catching up. The question now is if we have 100 now and 50 later or 50 now and more than100 later.

quick note: I see a quote on your profile from some dude. The pvp balance discord was never targeted nor taken down btw tho there was a bit of a cleanup lately.

Edited January 8 by The Ace.9105

[Marxx.5021]

As new player you don't need to know all specs and what they do. I find it more an issue that every new spec or weapon resulted in balancing issues which lead to more player leaving than new ones joining.

 If Anet wanted to attract new player they could change unranked:

• similar rewards as ranked but no titles
• get some positive result even for a lost match ->make every point count for a reward to have some incentive not to AFK a lost match, e.g. win/loss doesn't matter that much
• only allow predefined specs/roles to choose from (no free select of build, weapon or amulet, only like 2 specs/roles per class)
• no spec/class switching allowed after match making  but every group gets 1 support role, 1 roamer role and so on

Edited January 8 by Marxx.5021

[Dadnir.5038]

On 1/7/2024 at 10:07 AM, Deus Fatorum.2473 said:

In addition they have added 2 new boons quickness and alacrity, and three more conditions, slow, confusion, and torment.

As far as I know, it's 3 "new" boons added: Alacrity, Resistance and Resolution (Quickness existed but you couldn't corrupt/rip/steal it) and 1 boon removed: Retaliation.

As for the conditions they added Slow, Torment and Taunt. Confusion was already there at the release of the game.

 

[Flowki.7194]

21 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

also, new accounts are ranked at 1200 rating (gold 1), so new players are also expected to get farmed by vets until they drop in rank.... excellent player retention strategy there anet

 

I feel like a lot of the current complaints are just skill mismatch issues, not even balance a lot of the time 😅

I would also agree with that mostly. There are specs that are just not fun to fight against, are not viable at higher level, yet if you are an average player around g1-g3, you will be predominantly fighting against such specs. Also playing as full support is a horrible overall experiance, at g3 you are at more risk of the game designating you as "the teams carry player", getting silver and even bronze dps to support vs a single or simetimes duo plat dps (manipulating fkers). I think if support has X amount of healing power, its MMr elo should be lowered so that you are more often given dps closer to your true elo. You simply cannot support dps that are outskilled by a true entire elo, its effectively 5v4 at that point. Its also very annoying becuase there isn't much you can do about it on full support, just a spectator to the slaughter. Its why I shifted more over to dps, as many do, further reducing spec diversity, all you really see now is core gaurd support.

Edited January 8 by Flowki.7194

[Bunbury.8472]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I would also agree with that mostly. There are specs that are just not fun to fight against, are not viable at higher level, yet if you are an average player around g1-g3, you will be predominantly fighting against such specs. Also playing as full support is a horrible overall experiance, at g3 you are at more risk of the game designating you as "the teams carry player", getting silver and even bronze dps to support vs a single or simetimes duo plat dps (manipulating fkers). I think if support has X amount of healing power, its MMr elo should be lowered so that you are more often given dps closer to your true elo. You simply cannot support dps that are outskilled by a true entire elo, its effectively 5v4 at that point. Its also very annoying becuase there isn't much you can do about it on full support, just a spectator to the slaughter. Its why I shifted more over to dps, as many do, further reducing spec diversity, all you really see now is core gaurd support.

I'm playing a lot of support with my new friends (on warrior of all things kekekeek, staff when plz) and it works OK in duo. support gets stronger with more coordination, that's just the nature of the thing. however running something like reaper+ support in duo can get you a ton of wins. it's all perspective I guess.

sidenode dualist or rotational damage are the best carry roles. you basically have to play them solo to climb. but anyone trying to climb just has to fight top 50 players constantly because the pop is dead above gold 3 so like you're just doomed (last time me and my duo partner did this we got into top 50 but it was so boring constantly fighting the same people my god).

as far as fun to fight? idk man. that's perspective I think, and often about what counters your build. new players will always hate any high dmg build too, because avoiding dmg is harder than doing it. so they will still be learning how to not die, and will get constantly killed. my friend keeps on holo leaping into DH traps and hard feeding. people need to learn good habits, and it sucks when you're learning them.

like I used to hate fighting mesmer, but I had a WvW buddy who made us all duel him so much I can fight mesmer easy now. I see lots of QQ that could be energy put into getting better or tweaking an off meta build, but it goes to waste. skill is low enough that most things are just skill issue most of the time.

I swear if they put rewards in unranked too, ranked would just die and become a cess pool of toxic ladder and title obsessed players. good riddance honestly.

my dumb kitten just wants a fun game with no one afk on my team kekekeke. why is that so hard?

Edited January 9 by Bunbury.8472

[Deus Fatorum.2473]

14 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As far as I know, it's 3 "new" boons added: Alacrity, Resistance and Resolution (Quickness existed but you couldn't corrupt/rip/steal it) and 1 boon removed: Retaliation.

As for the conditions they added Slow, Torment and Taunt. Confusion was already there at the release of the game.

 

You are right that was my bad.

though resolution was a rework of retaliation

Edited January 9 by Deus Fatorum.2473

[Deus Fatorum.2473]

15 hours ago, Marxx.5021 said:

As new player you don't need to know all specs and what they do. I find it more an issue that every new spec or weapon resulted in balancing issues which lead to more player leaving than new ones joining.

 If Anet wanted to attract new player they could change unranked:

• similar rewards as ranked but no titles
• get some positive result even for a lost match ->make every point count for a reward to have some incentive not to AFK a lost match, e.g. win/loss doesn't matter that much
• only allow predefined specs/roles to choose from (no free select of build, weapon or amulet, only like 2 specs/roles per class)
• no spec/class switching allowed after match making  but every group gets 1 support role, 1 roamer role and so on

while it is true you don't need to know ALL of them, but it definitely helps to know the relevant ones, which do change occasionally. That said if you go in only knowing the class you play and no knowledge of the other classes you are at a serious disadvantage and will likely have far less enjoyment in the mode. Also I am not saying you need full mastery of every spec either but a core understanding of their skills and traits.

If you find you can still enjoy it without that knowledge more power to you.

More rewards would definitely be nice as well, especially in unranked forcing new players into ranked for any rewards is probably not the smartest move.

the 3rd point is one way of basically limiting the horizontal content, however not sure if it would go over well with the pvp community, especially since anets idea of a pvp build is a bit well... 

no spec swapping after match making I can see.

Part of the problem isn't just that there is more to learn and do, but just removing the content isn't fair either, as you will be essentially removing classes/builds people enjoy playing and potentially fighting against and potentially force more people out. 

If gw2 pvp was its own game entirely at launch and progressed independently from pve balance and changes it may have thrived, but the split happened way too late.  

 

Edited January 9 by Deus Fatorum.2473

[Gotejjeken.1267]

18 hours ago, The Ace.9105 said:

 Idk if you remember but the game used to be way more balanced and way slower back in the days

I remember, but attribute that also to everything had a role, without being hardlocked to trinity.  I agree about hard carry builds now, but think the experience point may be more relevant.  The game is a decade+ old and the people who maintained pvp are long, long gone.  

It is very similar to something like Half Life 1 DM right now--you have people that never stopped playing 25 years ago and then people who saw a steam sale and tried jumping in only to get wrecked in milliseconds.  They then leave because the rest of the game is dated too--like with sPvP.  There's nothing to keep people interested outside of a heavily manipulated leaderboard, no wonder the population is gone.  

[Marxx.5021]

11 hours ago, Deus Fatorum.2473 said:

while it is true you don't need to know ALL of them, but it definitely helps to know the relevant ones, which do change occasionally. That said if you go in only knowing the class you play and no knowledge of the other classes you are at a serious disadvantage and will likely have far less enjoyment in the mode. Also I am not saying you need full mastery of every spec either but a core understanding of their skills and traits.

If you find you can still enjoy it without that knowledge more power to you.

More rewards would definitely be nice as well, especially in unranked forcing new players into ranked for any rewards is probably not the smartest move.

the 3rd point is one way of basically limiting the horizontal content, however not sure if it would go over well with the pvp community, especially since anets idea of a pvp build is a bit well... 

no spec swapping after match making I can see.

Part of the problem isn't just that there is more to learn and do, but just removing the content isn't fair either, as you will be essentially removing classes/builds people enjoy playing and potentially fighting against and potentially force more people out. 

If gw2 pvp was its own game entirely at launch and progressed independently from pve balance and changes it may have thrived, but the split happened way too late.  

 

Just to be clear. Those ideas are for unranked to make it easier to enter sPvP as new player. Ranked would still give full freedom to choose any build/spec. It is unlikely that any changes will happen anyway. Even with future DLCs all money will go into PvE to keep it running I suppose.