Darker and more serious story

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

I hope there's an absolutely legendary-tier joke somewhere in the finale of SotO. Something to really stir the pot.

A skritt in the background very obviously trying to sneak off with something shiny and dangerous.

[itspomf.9523]

Haven't actively been playing in a few months, but wanted to share my own experiences with the story.

Notice:  spoilers for the main campaign abound.

I know a few of you touched on it already, but I feel that the core story leading up to the Zhaitan fight (and, well, Arah Dungeon as a whole) was honestly the highlight of the game -- which is sad, considering the amount of love and energy put into latter stories and expansions.  You can really tell the team has poured their hearts into things, but I feel that Guild Wars 2 has lost sight of what left such an immense and lasting impact on veteran players such as myself.

I started playing a scraggly little Charr Thief called Geppa (don't ask, it's an obscure reference) shortly after midnight of the Headstart access.  For the next several days and weeks, I would be exploring Tyria, the Plains of Ashford, and Diessa Plateau in a state of wonder for the sheer amount of storytelling that wasn't in a dialogue box or told to me through a cutscene.  Looking around, there was history and little secrets everywhere, and I immediately fell in love with exploring (often to my untimely demise.  We all remember our first encounter with a jumping puzzle).

Yet it was my Honorless Gladium of a sire who had perhaps the greatest influence on me.

At the time, I'd decided I wanted to soft roleplay Geppa.  Here's a young, scrawny Thief whose sparring partner is Dinky, the big dumb guardian with a heart of slightly tarnished silver.  Brains and Brawn kind of outfit.  And mentally?  It worked.  The levity was amusing, it kept me engaged, and I could honestly see these two nerds looking out for one another and sharing a close bond.

But then the word came in that my sire had Done Something Real Bad.  And as the story unfolded and I watched his desperate efforts to not only save his warbandmates but defy his Centurion in doing so -- at the risk of his own life and limb -- I went from hunting him to trying to help him.  I still remember the experience of having the story suddenly grip me with this moral dilemma:  do I uphold everything I've learned about Charr society, or do I do what a part of me knows is right?

When I finally cornered him and got a chance to talk -- particularly after my very unfortunate run-in with his Centurion in the process -- I chose the latter.

I still remember reading the dialogue there in the brig, hearing his pleas and his fervor to spare the people closest to him.  It resonated with me not just because of that drive alone, but because it likewise embodied everything I knew about the story insofar; more, were I to deny him, it would mean turning my back on the warband I was myself desperately trying to mend after losing them in Barradin's Vaults.

It was the first time I shed tears playing the game.  It was also the moment when I decided I and Geppa both were willing to turn our backs on the Black Citadel if it meant that at least one life would not be senselessly lost.

Fast-forward to the Orders and consequences which, at first, hardly seemed that consequential.  I've gotten in with the Order of Whispers (hey, Geppa's a Thief after all and it felt the most fitting ... particularly after encountering the Priory scholars and that chicken), and things are going well.  Or so I thought.

Instead (and this is back in the days of Old Lion's Arch, when splinters and tetanus were a daily concern), I'm put on desk duty with some guy who doesn't seem to have seen combat more than the fight of trying to reign in his punmastery on a daily basis.  Tybalt Leftpaw.  The "Apple Guy."  By Ash, I was suddenly thinking Rytlock had it out for me and I was being punished.

And yet somewhere between drinking pirates under the table and having increasingly more surreal escapades, I found myself growing closer and closer to this beautiful misfit who only ever wanted to prove that he could make it.  That he wasn't just some failed agent, but someone capable, to be respected.  That his life finally meant something.  And he did that, by sacrificing himself so that I and others could live.

Going to be honest, that scene on Claw Island absolutely devastated me.  I cried.  I told a video game character no, he didn't need to do this, he had meaning, he didn't need to die, we could get out of here together.  I still remember feeling shell-shocked afterward, as we escorted the survivors to the ships and I furiously cut down anything that moved.  I still remember how frantic everything had felt beforehand, lighting the warning beacon prior and watching them swarm over the walls.  It kept replaying through my mind:  what could I have done differently?

For a brief while, a game left me feeling something like survivor's guilt.

And then it did it again and again and again.

By the time I had reached the Gates of Arah and stared at the yawning portal of the last fight I would ever have to face, I'd waded through more death and loss than I cared to recall.  Everyone I and Geppa had met seemed to meet an ill end, whether it was Demolitionist Tonn sacrificing himself to stop the Bone Ships or the fury of his lover learning he had died in the line of duty (and I'd effectively killed him), or Apatia being lost to the Krait, or any that one Golemancer who was cut down near the end of our mission -- they were all gone.

From the very start of the story, to finally reuniting with (and then saying goodbye to) my sire, to losing the one mentor I never knew I needed, to watching more and more people who touched my life be snuffed out, my and Geppa's adventure through Tyria was one beshadowed by death, loss, and despair every step of the way.  The humorous moments were a welcome respite and made the journey worth surviving (even if in my head, Geppa left the Pact and never made it to Zhaitan in Arah, and not just because I was afraid of pugging that last fight back in the day).

And strangely?  I've not felt that since.  The storytelling is good, even when it's a little grating (what?  I liked the Power of Friendship nonsense because it really gave us a look into the lives of some woefully underdeveloped characters), but nothing has seized hold of me and made me question my decisions and everything I've done like the core story had.

Sure, Heart of Thorns had its moments, but it was overwhelmed by the diametric landslide of terror that was just trying to get enough mastery points to get enough mastery points to not die horribly to everything ever -- when it wasn't completely overshadowed by the Exalted, Aurene, and the blind trust hurled at a Charr who had been pulled out of retirement after drinking enough Firewater and Whiskey to drop 10 dolyaks with a single breath (and permanently alter her vocal cords!).

Sure, Path of Fire was an epic battle, but it felt more like the skirmishing of heroic beings rather than the struggles of mere mortals fighting a fallen god.  The tone was there, but the notes were flat and I connected more with the Olmakhan than I did the Sunspears I was supposed to be helping.

... and I'll be honest:  End of Dragons started out strong.  It really had me hoping for a revival of that nostalgia up there, and the possibility of not only exploring Mai Trin's character and her obvious redemption arc, but forcing us (and Marjory and Kasmeer) to have to face our own biases as we learned ever more of the horrors she had faced in getting here, let alone just how much she had come to hate herself for what she had done when she literally had to face herself in more than the mirror for years.  Only to have her written off for a two-bit villain's finale and barely given a handful of lines at the end (I confess, I'm camp "Joon Should've Been the Big Bad and The Dragonvoid an Allegory for the Corruptive Influences of Unbridled Power").

I've not played Secrets of the Obscure and I'm not sure I will, but I wanted to share this with you and the team.

[mandala.8507]

On 2/8/2024 at 10:01 PM, itspomf.9523 said:

I know a few of you touched on it already, but I feel that the core story leading up to the Zhaitan fight (and, well, Arah Dungeon as a whole) was honestly the highlight of the game

I think you're one of a very small minority of players who feel this way.

I for sure have nostalgia for the core story and think, while a little flat and meandering, it has a lot of charm. But ultimately, the storytelling has drastically improved from the core days, and even if I can say the themes of the Risen conflict and the campaign toward Orr were brilliant in a way, I would be foolish to claim that it should be considered the highlight of the game. For many players, the Zhaitan storyline is the low point of the game.

On 2/8/2024 at 10:01 PM, itspomf.9523 said:

Sure, Heart of Thorns had its moments, but it was overwhelmed by the diametric landslide of terror that was just trying to get enough mastery points to get enough mastery points to not die horribly to everything ever

I mean, this is no longer true of Heart of Thorns, and was barely true even when it launched. Not a fair criticism in 2024. Time to update your perspective, friend. We can't let our opinions on a live game live in the ancient past.

On 2/8/2024 at 10:01 PM, itspomf.9523 said:

.. and I'll be honest:  End of Dragons started out strong.  It really had me hoping for a revival of that nostalgia up there, and the possibility of not only exploring Mai Trin's character and her obvious redemption arc, but forcing us (and Marjory and Kasmeer) to have to face our own biases as we learned ever more of the horrors she had faced in getting here, let alone just how much she had come to hate herself for what she had done when she literally had to face herself in more than the mirror for years.  Only to have her written off for a two-bit villain's finale and barely given a handful of lines at the end (I confess, I'm camp "Joon Should've Been the Big Bad and The Dragonvoid an Allegory for the Corruptive Influences of Unbridled Power").

It makes me sad how poorly interpreted End of Dragons is by almost all GW2 players.

We weren't biased in our perspective on Mai Trin. We were not a witness to her growth, and so our understanding of Mai was that she is a calloused villain (because in living world season 1, that IS what she was). Her death is a crucial component of her redemption arc, and honestly if she hadn't died when she did, the trajectory of her character would have been too corny and obvious. It was intended for us to have to grapple with not fully acknowledging her growth before she left us ; for us as players to have to learn from others how she had changed and redirected her life, and then choose for ourselves how we felt about her in the end.

And frankly, it's quite disorienting to hear someone wish for more of Mai's redemption arc while simultaneously stating that they believe Joon should have been a villain. These are diametrically opposed ideas, as Mai's redemption arc goes hand-in-hand with the notion that Joon is a kind and caring person underneath her hubris and mild egotism. She is uniquely capable of seeing past (and in some cases brashly ignoring) people's flaws and instead focusing on their strengths and the good hiding within them.

It truly is upsetting knowing that they wrote End of Dragons too well, and so this community got lost and has pretty misguided takes on 90% of that content. The one that gets my blood boiling is the notion that Joon and Minister Li are ultimately the same character. I audibly groan every time I see it.

And the elder dragons, since their inception, have been analogous to nature itself. The destruction they wrought was simply a response to the imbalance of the world; a cruel remedy to keep a broken wheel spinning. The dragonvoid was the end state of this analogy. Nature finally devolving into pure disorder and chaos — the imbalance manifest. For as long as I've played this game, I've thought the themes of the elder dragon conflict have beautifully mirrored climate change (even all the way back in core), and so the dragonvoid was an expected turn of events for me and a lovely way to put a bow around that 10 year arc.

[mandala.8507]

On 1/30/2024 at 12:40 AM, mandala.8507 said:

I hope there's an absolutely legendary-tier joke somewhere in the finale of SotO.

We're not quite at the finale, but these Choya Kryptis count. 🤣

[Blur.3465]

Haven't completed the new story yet, but one thing that really gets me in the new zone is CONSTANT NPC chatter!
Every event has some NPC talking to you through comm device, or whispering to you etc.
I really want to feel immersed, but with this constantly ticking off it's near impossible.

I'm loving the realm and second part of the map though! Definitely a better vibe and tone with storytelling compared to EoD.

EDIT:
Finished the story in this release;

SPOILERS:

Spoiler

I'm loving the 'darker' vibe to it all and I really hope that Eparch prepares some surprise for us. It would be nice if we didn't win for once. Which brings several questions like -- What if Eparch captures us? What if he uses the Commander as a means to do something terrible? What if Peitha's plan completely backfires? OR... what if Peitha betrays us and becomes worse than Eparch?
What if we end up in this terrible, terrible place where we have to survive on our own after some harsh time?
Some twist would definitely be cool and add much more weight to the tale, rather than another 'oh villain defeated, expansion ended'.
 

 

Edited February 28 by Blur.3465

[Noidea Incognito.9607]

My 2 cents personal opinion on the matter and playing a bit Devils Advocate.

 

Really in the end it all comes down to personal preferences. 

Darker tones, more realistic pain, agonizing, suffering, cutwrenching moments? you personally would like to see that in GW2. Sure.

There is only one problem with that;  Anet must try/had to predict what the MAJORITY would like to see in GW2.

They share some similarities, but are still their own game. Expecting to get more of the same but upgraded. thats not a realistic perpective if your a game company. cause they have to look beyond the "romance/nostalgia". Do i personally want GW1 Heroes in GW2? Absolutely! Will i get GW1 Heroes in GW2? probably not. Its just not that kind of GW game.

I am sure when GW2 was still in development such things were also discussed during Q&A sessions:

 

"Do we continue this manner of storytelling wich was dark, realistic depressing and gritty? or what.... cmon people! Idea's please?"

"Oh oh!"

"Mike..."

"looking at the current trend we see alot of Negativity in daily life, so it wouldnt help if we let players experience the same dread in our future product"

"what are you suggesting?"

"Lets try a pilot with a message of Hope and positivity; Family, friends, great social aspect format with fun activities like..."

"like....?"

"uh... I dont know... costume brawl? , something to glue a community together, a place where the majority wants to stay"

"That sounds alot diffrent from our original game Mike..."

"We need to think ahead, we can still do epic battles and some storytelling but the focal point needs to be a real wholesome community vibe of positivity"  

"So... no dark gritty realistic stuff?"

"Oh sure, we can do a bit of that... just not too much. the priority should be; mainstream digital socializing community in  feelgood fantasy setting."

 

GW1 Traditionalist/Purist's might have trouble adjusting to something like GW2 and get vocal about it, even ditch the game; but to me it seems like GW2 is still massively popular with the majority.

If lore and storytelling was really a big issue we would have a situation like those Blind Box mounts on our hands... wich is not the case.

Imagen that; majority finds a fashion skins of a mount more important then emotional storytelling. Cant blame them. Looking nice ingame is important aspect of  Gw2 life. Mount Skins you look at multiple times; Story in mmo's is for the sake of telling a story wich is mostly a one time thing; then people start skipping on new playthroughs to save time so obviously people care less about the "feels".

When it concerns Single player games its ofcourse an entirely diffrent matter; the story is an important element that makes or breaks part of the overal score; especially in RPG's.

I may be a pleb in Lore department; but i found the Story from Core till EoD well written, coherent and entertaining. SOTO Story isnt to shabby either.

But the rather would have stayed "The Commander/Champion" cause "wayfinder" sounds a little corny.

GW1 = GW1.    GW2 = GW2.

It is what it is.

 

 

Edited March 8 by Noidea Incognito.9607