Darker and more serious story

[Eekasqueak.7850]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The Master Togo song is a great reference to this stuff lol.

GW1 was enjoyable, and it's got a solid world and storyline, but it's not like it was super deep, amazing, dark, or serious. It had silly joy moments and horrific ones. 

Gw2 has silly moments and horrific moments. 

The issue I see more often is people claiming GW1 is a masterpiece, or just acting as if you cannot like both GW1 and GW2 story or gameplay.

I call that kind of attitude nostalgia poisoning.

[Poormany.4507]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The Master Togo song is a great reference to this stuff lol.

GW1 was enjoyable, and it's got a solid world and storyline, but it's not like it was super deep, amazing, dark, or serious. It had silly joy moments and horrific ones. 

Gw2 has silly moments and horrific moments. 

The issue I see more often is people claiming GW1 is a masterpiece, or just acting as if you cannot like both GW1 and GW2 story or gameplay.

I agree with the last point, but GW1's storylines felt much more serious overall to me tbh. The quests and dialogue, like the banana scythe and Killroy's ones were clearly meant to be humorous/lighthearted ones while the main storylines didn't really have much humor and minimal quipping between characters.

One of the disadvantages of GW2's writing imo is that there is too much humor in the main storyline to the point that I can't really tell when moments are supposed to be serious/grounded and when I'm supposed to be laughing, so a lot of the humor/quips during serious scenes come off as cringey. One example that immediately comes to mind is the Shining Blade trials/initiation ritual (some of the worst story content in GW2 imo) - I honestly could not tell what the mood they were going for was in those scenes (Am I making a lifechanging commitment or is this some kind of funny parody, or what???). Since the comparison was drawn, I do have this issue with Marvel storylines as well (Ragnarok being the most clear example of why this storytelling just doesn't work for me (and many others based on the reviews)).

Edited January 14 by Poormany.4507

[AliamRationem.5172]

51 minutes ago, Poormany.4507 said:

I agree with the last point, but GW1's storylines felt much more serious overall to me tbh. The quests and dialogue, like the banana scythe and Killroy's ones were clearly meant to be humorous/lighthearted ones while the main storylines didn't really have much humor and minimal quipping between characters.

One of the disadvantages of GW2's writing imo is that there is too much humor in the main storyline to the point that I can't really tell when moments are supposed to be serious/grounded and when I'm supposed to be laughing, so a lot of the humor/quips during serious scenes come off as cringey. One example that immediately comes to mind is the Shining Blade trials/initiation ritual (some of the worst story content in GW2 imo) - I honestly could not tell what the mood they were going for was in those scenes (Am I making a lifechanging commitment or is this some kind of funny parody, or what???). Since the comparison was drawn, I do have this issue with Marvel storylines as well (Ragnarok being the most clear example of why this storytelling just doesn't work for me (and many others based on the reviews)).

I think the problem is that the story just isn't very convincing on an emotional level.  Lightening the mood in tense and difficult situations makes sense, but if you're never feeling that tension to begin with it doesn't really work.

If you guys want to get an idea of what I'm talking about here, you might search for "Karlach bursts into tears" and you should find a video clip from PerfectParadox (I'd link it, but there's quite a bit of foul language in it and I don't want to violate forum rules!).  It's a scene from Baldur's Gate 3.  Karlach is dying because a devil ripped out her heart and replaced it with an engine that grants her power but will eventually kill her and she's just killed the man responsible.  I feel it does a pretty good job of delivering convincing emotion so that when they attempt to lighten the mood with a few jokes at the end it doesn't feel silly at all.

[mandala.8507]

10 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Since the comparison was drawn, I do have this issue with Marvel storylines as well (Ragnarok being the most clear example of why this storytelling just doesn't work for me (and many others based on the reviews)).

You think Thor: Ragnarok is an example of a bad Marvel movie that was poorly reviewed?

It's one of the highest rated movies in the franchise.

Ragnarok is the example everyone gives of mixing humor and serious plot correctly.

Like...huh?!?!

[Buzzbugs.1236]

12 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

You think Thor: Ragnarok is an example of a bad Marvel movie that was poorly reviewed?

It's one of the highest rated movies in the franchise.

Ragnarok is the example everyone gives of mixing humor and serious plot correctly.

Like...huh?!?!

Spotted the Marvel fan.

Sorry to tell you, but that entire franchise is trash.

[mandala.8507]

10 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Spotted the Marvel fan.

Did you?

What about stating an objective truth about a film makes me a Marvel fan? It IS one of the highest rated of that franchise. And people DO point to it as one of the times Marvel did humor right.

12 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Sorry to tell you, but that entire franchise is trash.

So this is where I ask you to share with the class:

What movies do you think are not entirely trash. I need to get a better understanding of your taste. Give us a few examples of peak films, in your view. And maybe you could share also some games with stories you enjoy. I just need to wrap my head around what constitutes good storytelling these days, according to you.

[Buzzbugs.1236]

2 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I just need to wrap my head around what constitutes good storytelling these days, according to you.

Anything that's not Marvel.

[mandala.8507]

2 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Anything that's not Marvel.

So you have no taste, it's just "everything is cringe." Got it. Figures.

Edited January 14 by mandala.8507

[Poormany.4507]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

You think Thor: Ragnarok is an example of a bad Marvel movie that was poorly reviewed?

It's one of the highest rated movies in the franchise.

Ragnarok is the example everyone gives of mixing humor and serious plot correctly.

Like...huh?!?!

Didn't say it's not highly rated (I loved the action scenes in the movie myself), but that the overuse of humor doesn't work for me and many others, and weakens the story from what it could have been. If you look at the reviews on IMDB, you'll immediately notice tons of people calling out the overuse/shoehorning of humor into the story when it's not really necessary, ruining the tension at times. Same applies to GW2 and a lot of other modern games trying imitate the newer Marvel trend of forcing quips/humor into every other line of dialogue. Just because an overuse of humor in Guardians of the Galaxy was successful for that specific film series, doesn't mean it should be forced into every other media. Characters throwing quips around during/after every battle gets tiring really fast (unless you're specifically making comedic-centered content, as is the case in GotG).

Edited January 14 by Poormany.4507

[Kalavier.1097]

13 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

I agree with the last point, but GW1's storylines felt much more serious overall to me tbh. The quests and dialogue, like the banana scythe and Killroy's ones were clearly meant to be humorous/lighthearted ones while the main storylines didn't really have much humor and minimal quipping between characters.

One of the disadvantages of GW2's writing imo is that there is too much humor in the main storyline to the point that I can't really tell when moments are supposed to be serious/grounded and when I'm supposed to be laughing, so a lot of the humor/quips during serious scenes come off as cringey. One example that immediately comes to mind is the Shining Blade trials/initiation ritual (some of the worst story content in GW2 imo) - I honestly could not tell what the mood they were going for was in those scenes (Am I making a lifechanging commitment or is this some kind of funny parody, or what???). Since the comparison was drawn, I do have this issue with Marvel storylines as well (Ragnarok being the most clear example of why this storytelling just doesn't work for me (and many others based on the reviews)).

Using your example, The shining blade ritual. When I did that episode, I had no problem understanding the mood of the situation being serious, even if the commander is annoyed somewhat at times to be doing it.

I never once felt they were going "haha funny parody". I don't even know how you'd get "Hahaha, this is just funny sequence" from that episode at all?

11 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I think the problem is that the story just isn't very convincing on an emotional level.  Lightening the mood in tense and difficult situations makes sense, but if you're never feeling that tension to begin with it doesn't really work.

If you guys want to get an idea of what I'm talking about here, you might search for "Karlach bursts into tears" and you should find a video clip from PerfectParadox (I'd link it, but there's quite a bit of foul language in it and I don't want to violate forum rules!).  It's a scene from Baldur's Gate 3.  Karlach is dying because a devil ripped out her heart and replaced it with an engine that grants her power but will eventually kill her and she's just killed the man responsible.  I feel it does a pretty good job of delivering convincing emotion so that when they attempt to lighten the mood with a few jokes at the end it doesn't feel silly at all.

This sounds like a personal opinion? It's fair to not like it, maybe it doesn't click with you exactly. But that doesn't mean it's not emotionally convincing for other people.

2 hours ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Spotted the Marvel fan.

Sorry to tell you, but that entire franchise is trash.

Spotted the person who cannot tell the difference between opinion and objective fact? 

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean the entire franchise is 100% trash. And by making such blanket statements it's... weird.

[mandala.8507]

29 minutes ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Didn't say it's not highly rated (I loved the action scenes in the movie myself), but that the overuse of humor doesn't work for me and many others, and weakens the story from what it could have been. If you look at the reviews on IMDB, you'll immediately notice tons of people calling out the overuse/shoehorning of humor into the story when it's not really necessary, ruining the tension at times. Same applies to GW2 and a lot of other modern games trying imitate the newer Marvel trend of forcing quips/humor into every other line of dialogue. Just because an overuse of humor in Guardians of the Galaxy was successful for that specific film series, doesn't mean it should be forced into every other media. Characters throwing quips around during/after every battle gets tiring really fast (unless you're specifically making comedic-centered content, as is the case in GotG).

By this logic, everything is poorly reviewed. There are poor reviews for everything. You're participating in confirmation bias. You're honing in on the opinions that agree with you here, because the consensus is against you.

How do I know this? Because I just pulled up the IMDB page and the vast majority of the reviews are positive and enjoy the fact that it is more humorous.

Only 6% of reviews rated it below a 6/10. Does this mean it's a great movie? Not necessarily, but it's certainly a movie people enjoyed and have positive opinions of.

Also, can we stop pretending jokes in pop culture media started with Marvel? This is just film bro propaganda.

[Kalavier.1097]

3 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

You're participating in confirmation bias. You're honing in on the opinions that agree with you here

This is a very important thing to also consider.

If I search for "X is terrible" I'll find results that say it. It doesn't mean the vast majority of people think that way, just that some people do. Whether it's a large group, a small but vocal group, etc.

As the saying goes... "The majority of people are quiet, with a vocal groups being the ones talking". The vast majority of people will play a game or watch a movie, and move on after enjoying it, even if they revisit it often or not.  The people who really and heavily love it will go talk about it. The same for the people who truly hate it (rationally or not). You have people who dislike it/didn't enjoy it, and moved on. Then you have the people who continue to talk about their displeasure years later.

[Blur.3465]

Let's keep it friendly here and not insult one another.
People are allowed to have an opinion and that's fine. 

Others love Marvel, some don't. I personally don't because it's not the kind of movies I enjoy and that's fine. Those who love it, enjoy it!

However, I just don't like the over-usage of humor in GW2.
I'm saying this because I love the game and I'd like to see the story get better! Not worse!
Personally just feel they need to tone down on humor and add more depth/darkness to the story without destroying the immersion with comm devices and adding humor into everything.
I'm using Icebrood Saga as an example and it had a GOOD dark tone. Looking at Bjora Marches that zone was AMAZING. A big shame the story was rushed.

Comparing GW1 storytelling to GW2 yes. And it's not to flame GW2. On the contrary, I'd like GW2 to be BETTER storywise than GW1. Sadly, to me, it is not because it -lacks- that serious tone.
And YES GW1 had silly moments, but main questline/story wasn't filled with needles humor, game was taking itself seriously which you can tell. It had a good dark vibe which kept you immersed. It is an old game now, I had the time of my life playing it, I grew up with it and I am having a great time playing GW2. I want GW2 to be better, I want it to take itself seriously in terms of lore and story and give us more weight and depth without over-using the humor.
That is -all- there is to it. People are misinterpreting what I said and think like I'm hating on GW2 which is not true. The fact that I am writing here means I deeply care for the game and just want it to get better. Story is a huge part of the game for me, so yes I deeply care about it.

EDIT:
Once more, humor is fine -- as long as it is not over-used. Light-hearted fun is fine. I am not saying -remove- this from the game/story, I am saying tone it down in main story for the sake of taking it more seriously and actually caring about it.

Remember that mission where you as a commander get captured and taken to the Sunspear Great Hall? 
You stand there before the gate in shackles, uncertain what to expect, and there's this random person carrying that crate 'It's so heavy' 
'Ahhh it's heavy, can we hurry up???' -- and this is what gets me. It's a serious moment and you have these random lines ruining it. I was rolling my eyes there.
 

Edited January 14 by Blur.3465

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Using your example, The shining blade ritual. When I did that episode, I had no problem understanding the mood of the situation being serious, even if the commander is annoyed somewhat at times to be doing it.

I never once felt they were going "haha funny parody". I don't even know how you'd get "Hahaha, this is just funny sequence" from that episode at all?

This sounds like a personal opinion? It's fair to not like it, maybe it doesn't click with you exactly. But that doesn't mean it's not emotionally convincing for other people.

Spotted the person who cannot tell the difference between opinion and objective fact? 

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean the entire franchise is 100% trash. And by making such blanket statements it's... weird.

Naturally, it's my opinion and you're welcome to disagree.  But I notice that you say you have no problem "understanding" the mood.  Neither do I.  I understand perfectly well what they're attempting to convey.  I just don't feel anything from it.  So, when they crack jokes it isn't relieving any tension.  It just comes across as silly and lacking immersion.

[Kalavier.1097]

45 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

Remember that mission where you as a commander get captured and taken to the Sunspear Great Hall? 
You stand there before the gate in shackles, uncertain what to expect, and there's this random person carrying that crate 'It's so heavy' 
'Ahhh it's heavy, can we hurry up???' -- and this is what gets me. It's a serious moment and you have these random lines ruining it. I was rolling my eyes there.
 

Re-reading the dialogue, the Corsair holding the crate of grog (directly mentioned by Sayida as a celeberation toast and the finest grog she had) comments "It's very heavy." 

This is when they are trying to trick the entire garrison into drinking spiked grog to disable the guards and let the PC do a jailbreak with the Spearmarshel. The whole "Captured" is a literal game being played on the Awakened to let the commander get in. 

The entire plan was "Commander pretends to be captured by Sayida, they drug the garrison, then the Commander busts Zaeim out from inside and they escape while the entire great hall is sleeping off being drunk.,"

[Blur.3465]

1 minute ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Re-reading the dialogue, the Corsair holding the crate of grog (directly mentioned by Sayida as a celeberation toast and the finest grog she had) comments "It's very heavy." 

This is when they are trying to trick the entire garrison into drinking spiked grog to disable the guards and let the PC do a jailbreak with the Spearmarshel. The whole "Captured" is a literal game being played on the Awakened to let the commander get in. 

The entire plan was "Commander pretends to be captured by Sayida, they drug the garrison, then the Commander busts Zaeim out from inside and they escape while the entire great hall is sleeping off being drunk.,"

I am well aware of what the mission is about XD
It was supposed to be a serious moment when the commander gets caught and what to expect in the prison and if the plan will even work. "It's very heavy" being repeated 2x really felt out of place and it's just ONE example out of many where needles humor is being put.

I don't see the point of this comment though? I mean if you are fine with humor constantly being there that's all right -- you are entitled to your opinion and so am I to mine, I don't like it being constantly put everywhere.

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

It was supposed to be a serious moment

This is a bad read on that mission. Full stop. The tone isn't supposed to turn serious until we start hearing Taimi on the comms device with Joko. Then the rest of that episode hones in on this more dire tone.

You've read the tone of the mission poorly. We were in total control of the situation until that moment, and that's when the tone shifts.

If you think a classic fetch quest to make a caustic pirate grog was supposed to strike a serious tone, you're lost.

[Blur.3465]

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

This is a bad read on that mission. Full stop. The tone isn't supposed to turn serious until we start hearing Taimi on the comms device with Joko. Then the rest of that episode hones in on this more dire tone.

You've read the tone of the mission poorly. We were in total control of the situation until that moment, and that's when the tone shifts.

If you think a classic fetch quest to make a caustic pirate grog was supposed to strike a serious tone, you're lost.

Trusting a corsair and not having a means to leave the cell? Yep. 
But as I said, it's just ONE example out of many and the 'it's heavy' is ONE thing that annoyed me there. I don't think I need to keep explaining myself.
 

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Blur.3465 said:

But as I said, it's just ONE example out of many and the 'it's heavy' is ONE thing that annoyed me there. I don't think I need to keep explaining myself.

I think you do, because it seems like you just hate all comedy and don't understand the tone of GW2 in the slightest.

But that's just my opinion.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

Trusting a corsair and not having a means to leave the cell? Yep. 
But as I said, it's just ONE example out of many and the 'it's heavy' is ONE thing that annoyed me there. I don't think I need to keep explaining myself.
 

So don't.  Just accept that fans gonna be fans and you're on the GW2 forums.  Is GW2 story high art?  Not by any reasonable standard.  But if you're going to find people that think it is anywhere it'll be here.  You're not going to convince anyone here.

[mandala.8507]

Just now, AliamRationem.5172 said:

So don't.  Just accept that fans gonna be fans and you're on the GW2 forums.  Is GW2 story high art?  Not by any reasonable standard.  But if you're going to find people that think it is anywhere it'll be here.  You're not going to convince anyone here.

The GW2 forums has the highest concentration of GW2 story haters of any location on the internet, so I have no clue what you're talking about. This is GW1 supremacist central. The only place with lower opinions of GW2 is the GW1 subreddit, but they talk about it less.

[Kalavier.1097]

16 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

I am well aware of what the mission is about XD
It was supposed to be a serious moment when the commander gets caught and what to expect in the prison and if the plan will even work. "It's very heavy" being repeated 2x really felt out of place and it's just ONE example out of many where needles humor is being put.

I don't see the point of this comment though? I mean if you are fine with humor constantly being there that's all right -- you are entitled to your opinion and so am I to mine, I don't like it being constantly put everywhere.

That's the thing... as said, we didn't get caught. We made a plan to get into the jails where we knew the VIP was, and had a plan to disable the guards to make escape easier. 

There was a lack of intel on what to expect of the jails themselves, but then again pretty sure the plan was we'd get dragged down awake, not knocked out because Taimi called us at an extremely bad moment.

You are trying to turn that instance into a super serious and dire situation where the commander is not part of the plan, instead of a situation where the pirates were acting exactly as pirates would (to avoid being detected) while turning in an incredibly high value bounty for rewards. This isn't a cause of "Random humor" but pirates being pirates who are playing a role as much as the commander is by pretending to be helpless and defeated while they very much are not.

4 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

So don't.  Just accept that fans gonna be fans and you're on the GW2 forums.  Is GW2 story high art?  Not by any reasonable standard.  But if you're going to find people that think it is anywhere it'll be here.  You're not going to convince anyone here.

I just so love how having any sort of opinion other then "GW2 story is terrible" is being used to accuse others of thinking it's the best kitten thing since Tolkien.

[Blur.3465]

I'm finding it really funny how people keep thinking I'm against GW2 here, whereas I'm hoping story will get better by toning down on humor which is present 95% of time in game. 
Alas, this is the last post from me here as it's pointless to keep repeating myself like a parrot :') 

GW2 is my main MMORPG and I'm enjoying it greatly. I -love- the game. I just hope story starts to take itself seriously. I do feel people need to re-read my posts again. 
Oh well, guess you can't provide ciritism these days.

[Kalavier.1097]

31 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

I'm finding it really funny how people keep thinking I'm against GW2 here, whereas I'm hoping story will get better by toning down on humor which is present 95% of time in game. 
Alas, this is the last post from me here as it's pointless to keep repeating myself like a parrot :') 

GW2 is my main MMORPG and I'm enjoying it greatly. I -love- the game. I just hope story starts to take itself seriously. I do feel people need to re-read my posts again. 
Oh well, guess you can't provide ciritism these days.

Oh I'm not saying you are. That other guy speaking against the GW2 story however, is coming across that way. 

Edited January 14 by Kalavier.1097

[mandala.8507]

31 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

I'm finding it really funny how people keep thinking I'm against GW2 here, whereas I'm hoping story will get better by toning down on humor which is present 95% of time in game. 
Alas, this is the last post from me here as it's pointless to keep repeating myself like a parrot :') 

GW2 is my main MMORPG and I'm enjoying it greatly. I -love- the game. I just hope story starts to take itself seriously. I do feel people need to re-read my posts again. 
Oh well, guess you can't provide ciritism these days.

Alas. 😔 ✌️ 🦜