Why does warrior only have one way to play condi?

[SeTect.5918]

Almost Every single profession has at least 2 e-specs that can go for condi, except warrior. Warrior only has berserker.

• Necro: harbinger, reaper and scourge as condi options --> 3
• Mesmer: Mirage and Virtuoso as condi options --> 2
• Ele: Weaver and Tempest as condi options --> 2
• Engi: Mechanist and Holo as condi options --> 2
• Ranger: Soulbeast and Druid as condi options (and at some degrees also untamed) --> 2-3
• Thief: Daredevil and Specter as condi options (and soon probably also deadeye) --> 2-3
• Revenant: Renegade (and maybe Herald) as condi option(s) --> 1-2
• Guardian: Willbender and Firebrand as condi options --> 2
• Warrior: Berserker as condi option --> 1

I feel like giving spellbreaker a way to go for condi would be kinda nice. Spellbreaker only does 1 thing: power dps.

Makes no sense to me that warrior only has berserker as condi option. Strange balancing decision.

Revenant is the only other professions that only has one real condi based e-spec. But here is the differance that revenant always chooses 2 legends and you can always choose demon stance as second so you basically can always have a half condi build. However dragon stance also gives some condi damage so the condi damage benchmark isnt that bad (around 37-38k).

But the differance between Revenant and warrior is that both bladesworn and spellbreaker offer nothing for condi while herald does offer some slight condi damage buffs, thats why condi herald is actually a thing while condi spellbreaker or condi bladesworn are not.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

40 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Almost Every single profession has at least 2 e-specs that can go for condi, except warrior. Warrior only has berserker.

• Necro: harbinger, reaper and scourge as condi options --> 3
• Mesmer: Mirage and Virtuoso as condi options --> 2
• Ele: Weaver and Tempest as condi options --> 2
• Engi: Mechanist and Holo as condi options --> 2
• Ranger: Soulbeast and Druid as condi options (and at some degrees also untamed) --> 2-3
• Thief: Daredevil and Specter as condi options (and soon probably also deadeye) --> 2-3
• Revenant: Renegade (and maybe Herald) as condi option(s) --> 1-2
• Guardian: Willbender and Firebrand as condi options --> 2
• Warrior: Berserker as condi option --> 1

I feel like giving spellbreaker a way to go for condi would be kinda nice. Spellbreaker only does 1 thing: power dps.

Makes no sense to me that warrior only has berserker as condi option. Strange balancing decision.

Revenant is the only other professions that only has one real condi based e-spec. But here is the differance that revenant always chooses 2 legends and you can always choose demon stance as second so you basically can always have a half condi build. However dragon stance also gives some condi damage so the condi damage benchmark isnt that bad (around 37-38k).

But the differance between Revenant and warrior is that both bladesworn and spellbreaker offer nothing for condi while herald does offer some slight condi damage buffs, thats why condi herald is actually a thing while condi spellbreaker or condi bladesworn are not.

With BSW during the first beta test they had a trait that dropped a shell when you used an explosion that caused burning. But the mechanics of how that worked were bad, that shell was hard to hit a target unless you were standing in their hitbox. A better approach to that trait would have been, "Your explosions now deal 1 stack of burning for 4s" and had it count per explosion hit, but they opted to go all in on power DPS.

Spellbreaker can bring some strong over condis via it's traitline, but that is only useful in PvP/WvW and not PvE.

[SeTect.5918]

36 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

With BSW during the first beta test they had a trait that dropped a shell when you used an explosion that caused burning. But the mechanics of how that worked were bad, that shell was hard to hit a target unless you were standing in their hitbox. A better approach to that trait would have been, "Your explosions now deal 1 stack of burning for 4s" and had it count per explosion hit, but they opted to go all in on power DPS.

Spellbreaker can bring some strong over condis via it's traitline, but that is only useful in PvP/WvW and not PvE.

Yeah I knew bladesworn had a burn trait some months ago but last time i was editing my builds in build editor i didnt recall i saw any, so I made sure and it does indeed not have that anymore.
Tho tbh I think if they would give warrior a second condi e-spec then it would fit better on spellbreaker.
Berserker has support, condi and power.
Bladesworn has power and support.
Spellbreaker has power only.
I also dont know how they should introduce condi on the dragon trigger skills. Since they have a kind of high cast time it would have to inflict tons of condis which i dont really know how that should work. I mean they cant make dragon trigger 1 deal like 10 burn stacks right?

It kind of would make the most sense on spellbreaker since that is the only warrior spec that just does 1 thing.

My focus was more on PvE tho for this post.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Yeah I knew bladesworn had a burn trait some months ago but last time i was editing my builds in build editor i didnt recall i saw any, so I made sure and it does indeed not have that anymore.
Tho tbh I think if they would give warrior a second condi e-spec then it would fit better on spellbreaker.
Berserker has support, condi and power.
Bladesworn has power and support.
Spellbreaker has power only.
I also dont know how they should introduce condi on the dragon trigger skills. Since they have a kind of high cast time it would have to inflict tons of condis which i dont really know how that should work. I mean they cant make dragon trigger 1 deal like 10 burn stacks right?

It kind of would make the most sense on spellbreaker since that is the only warrior spec that just does 1 thing.

My focus was more on PvE tho for this post.

Well, If I were to alter things...

Since they added some explosions to core weapons I would add a trait to Arms that caused explosions to deal 1 stack of burn for 4s/2s per explosion on each foe struck, no ICD (PvE/Comp split). I would also alter Wounding Precision to instead inflict Torment (4s/2s, PvE/Comp) when inflicting bleed, no ICD.

For BSW you wouldn't charge the DS, just use it immediately, and the amount of explosion hits would generate a good amount of condi DPS from burn and the autoprocs of bleed+torment from Arms and/or sigils.

Spellbreaker was a better place to put support than BSW, and I would still make that call and move alacrity to there on meditation, FC, or burst usage and return the old Daring Dragon back.

Edited January 23 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Edit in bold. Meant burn not bleed. I was pretty tired yesterday.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

The absolute minimum changes while still holding to the current mechanics of Bladesworn I can think of would be:

• Revise Fierce as Fire
  • Burning per each round of ammunition spent
• Add to Guns & Glory:
  • Each Charge used for Dragon Slash counts as ammunition spent

Those two changes alone would turn

1. Gunsaber (sustained) & Pistol (spike) into condi-capable weapons
2. Dragon Slashes at full charge a sizeable condi-burst.
3.  Overcharged Cartidges becomes a condi-spike attack as Detonate Cartridges would drop all 5 Ammunition on the spot
4. Combat Stim & Flow Stabilizer providing chip burning

Potential follow-up changes to synergize with this:

• Trait: Lush Forest = Alacrity AoE per ammunition used (if ANet refuses to give alac to Spellbreaker)
  • Requires removal of Alacrity from Daring Dragon
• Trait: Unshakable Mountain = Healing AoE per ammunition used; excess becomes Barrier 
  • Requires rework of Immortal Dragon healing

[Janggernaut.2304]

So, the problem its bleeding does low condition damage, in armas you have body blows, in arms you have enought traits, you have to many might traits and skills. Just need to fixo numbers. Bleed, burn, Poison, tormenta, fart, are Just ways, the point its the damage.

[Mevelios.4809]

4 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

• Trait: Lush Forest = Alacrity AoE per ammunition used (if ANet refuses to give alac to Spellbreaker)
  • Requires removal of Alacrity from Daring Dragon

It would put at risk the current healsworn though, which works fine already. I'm not familiar with the warrior (and play almost exclusively in PvE), but wouldn't Unshakable mountain be a better candidate - even if replacing it completely? I don't see much use for it besides potentially a bit of survival in PvP/WvW, although by the time you've fired twice or thrice any last ammo, you've likely taken as many bursts.

Edited January 25 by Mevelios.4809

[Dadnir.5038]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:12 PM, SeTect.5918 said:

Necro: harbinger, reaper and scourge as condi options --> 3

Should we open a thread in the necromancer's subforum to ask "why does necromancer only have one way to play strike damage?". The answer to the question is "flavor".

That said, you can play condition damage with any spec (just like necromancer can use strike damage on any spec) it's just that you'll be less effective with some specs than you are with other.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

11 hours ago, Janggernaut.2304 said:

So, the problem its bleeding does low condition damage, in armas you have body blows, in arms you have enought traits, you have to many might traits and skills. Just need to fixo numbers. Bleed, burn, Poison, tormenta, fart, are Just ways, the point its the damage.

Body Blow is in Strength, which actually makes maximising your condi a little awkward, since you want to take Discipline on basically every warrior build for the movement speed, cleanse, swap and burst cooldown, and burst refund. Body Blow would actually otherwise work quite well on a condi Spellbreaker since you would be inflicting extra bleeding and weakness on a full counter too. But taking Strength would cripple a lot of your other utility needed for survival, which you kind of need on a condi build due to the bunker/damage over time nature.

[howdy.7604]

I remember seeing an excellent suggestion here a while ago. 

Forget elites, make body blow also inflict bleeding, torment and/or confusion. We have unfinished business with the latter two, and not nearly enough of the former compared to stuff like earth weavers and reapers. Courtesy of main hand sword being janky and having an awful burst skill.

Also, another thing I saw here: stick somewhere in a core traitline something that makes weakness inflict bleeding. Still body blow? Somewhere else? 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Should we open a thread in the necromancer's subforum to ask "why does necromancer only have one way to play strike damage?". The answer to the question is "flavor".

That said, you can play condition damage with any spec (just like necromancer can use strike damage on any spec) it's just that you'll be less effective with some specs than you are with other.

If you're not worrying about maximising DPS in instanced endgame content, harbinger DOES have power traits. The build isn't as strong as condition harbinger or power reaper, but harbinger does at least in principle support a power option.

Heck, if you're not just looking at instanced group content builds, it's even worse than the OP has presented. Condi chrono has been a thing in the past, even if it's not meta now. Condi and cele catalyst works, it's just outperformed in condi DPS by the other two. Condi/cele deadeye already exists as an open world build, as does condi herald and even condi vindicator (Archemorus has burning, and Imperial Impact has chill, which can be converted into Torment through Abyssal Chill) - condi herald has even had a period when it was dominant in sPvP.

You could do a similar analysis for power damage. Scourge, druid and spectre are the only elites that really have nothing to offer for power damage - I've seen serious power builds for everything else, even if some of them aren't necessarily top DPS in instanced combat conditions. Warrior is unique in only having one elite specialisation that caters to one of the damage types (specifically, condi) - every other profession has at least two elite specialisation options for either condi or power.

Short of introducing a new elite specialisation, it'd make more sense to find some way to make a condi spellbreaker over bladesworn: kind of hard to make condi bladesworn work when bladesworn's main selling point is massive power damage spikes.

[Guy.9207]

Condi Spellbreaker, as it is, essentially plays like a Core Warrior if you spec into condi, which the only thing it is good at is Bleeding damage and not much else. You literally have nothing that supports it outside of Arms whose focus lies on Bleeding. As such, any other conditions like Torment and Confusion will lack the expertise needed to do any meaningful damage. The only reason you would play it would to use the spec as a utility/survival traitline, but then you run into issues of either not putting enough dps if needed, or simply wasting all that survivability if you don't.

[HeliosMagi.9867]

I'm all for making Condi or Hybrid Spellbreaker a thing. It's already my favorite open world build to play because of the permanent Stability, being able to effectively use Celestial Stats on top of that would make it incredibly comfy.

[Guy.9207]

On 1/27/2024 at 2:37 AM, HeliosMagi.9867 said:

I'm all for making Condi or Hybrid Spellbreaker a thing. It's already my favorite open world build to play because of the permanent Stability, being able to effectively use Celestial Stats on top of that would make it incredibly comfy.

Yeah, the whole thing would really synergize with Body Blow or Strength line as a whole since the whole gimmick of the Spellbreaker is CC and associated benefits.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Well if you want more condi options do support my thread here:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/142601-condi-macehammershield-idea/

In short it's an idea to introduce torment application when landing a hard cc or immob.
Giving core warrior some real condi output without breaking condi zerker's damage.

Comments greatly appreciated, idea is still in work and refinement, so I'm open to suggestions!

Edited January 31 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Langeball.9351]

Dragon trigger 3 is a buggy piece of kitten and barely has more reach than dragon trigger 2. I like the idea of changing it to a condi ability. Maybe a wide shotgun ability that ignites people.