Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: the cweaver player rate drops on fights where you need heavy amounts of cc, such as ankka cm, you can see that here: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/ankka the weaver playrate is 0.34%, while on strikes the popularity of weaver on strikes is 1.12% https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity reduction of almost 4 times, we have to define here what is being effective, being carried on cc unless you are doing boon dps levels of dps is not the case, being asked to switch or outrgiht being kicked even before the fight starts for playing cweaver cleary tells you something, but that is kinda crazy that people that tells that its completely fine dont even touch this type of content on cweaver That's not a problem though; some classes are just going to perform better in different encounters. That's completely expected and reasonable. The philosophy doesn't conflict with that either. There are 9 additional people in the team; SOMEONE in that team has CC, numerous people even. That means you can bring a cweaver, play with 9 other people and be successful in those encounters. That has been a truth of this game since team content has been in it. The question is if you need a specific class to complete content in this game. You don't. I mean, obviously you have a problem with the skillset cweaver has ... OK, but that's DEFINITELY not some conflict with the balance philosophy of the game. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said: I don't see how this counters my comment. The post I quoted told the OP to not bring a certain class because it sucks at certain content. I stated the game's philosophy is that the player should be able to achieve effective results with any class. Aren't we saying the same thing in different ways? Apologizeis to you ... I had misread something, was unable to edit to fix the misunderstanding. Yes, agreed that the philosophy is that a player should be able to achieve effective results with any class. We are on a similar understanding. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: That's not a problem though; some classes are just going to perform better in different encounters. That's completely expected and reasonable. The philosophy doesn't conflict with that either. There are 9 additional people in the team; SOMEONE in that team has CC, numerous people even. That means you can bring a cweaver, play with 9 other people and be successful in those encounters. That has been a truth of this game since team content has been in it. The question is if you need a specific class to complete content in this game. You don't. I mean, obviously you have a problem with the skillset cweaver has ... OK, but that's DEFINITELY not some conflict with the balance philosophy of the game. where exactly does cweaver perform better then, you see, this is the point of this discurssion, some specs perform too good, on everything, and some perform ok on some and worst on a lot of encounters, this is such a bad argument, i can make the same case for damage, why did arenanet had to buff reaper, because you see, he can play with 9 other people that could carry him on damage, that no need to buff anything underpforming, beucase all you need is to play with overperforming classes, such an easy solution, why do we even need balance, its definately not a conflict with balance 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: where exactly does cweaver perform better then, you see, this is the point of this discurssion, some specs perform too good, on everything, and some perform ok on some and worst on a lot of encounters, this is such a bad argument, i can make the same case for damage, why did arenanet had to buff reaper, because you see, he can play with 9 other people that could carry him on damage, that no need to buff anything underpforming, beucase all you need is to play with overperforming classes, such an easy solution, why do we even need balance, its definately not a conflict with balance I don't know where exactly it performs better ... but it doesn't matter because cweaver doesn't NEED to perform 'better than' anything to be able for Anet's philosophy to make sense or anyone to be able to use it to be successful in teams. You're late to the party here. Just because something isn't 'best' at what you want to do with it doesn't mean we don't have balance. I mean again ... the 'point' of the discussion is that some specs perform 'too good' on everything and some not ... that's not a balancing issue beacuse the content isn't designed so you need to play those 'too good on everything' options to be successful. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: I don't know ... but it doesn't matter because cweaver doesn't NEED to perform 'better than' anything to be able for Anet's philosophy to make sense. You're late to the party here. Just because something isn't 'best' at what you want to do with it doesn't mean we don't have balance. Indeed, but to have actuall balance thing should be at least close no ? its not the case right now, if cweaver does not perform better at anything, and have a really bad cc, what is wrong on buffing cweaver, and its not only a cweaver thing, elementalist on general has really low cc, its just a huge problem on cweaver, like if they buff warhorn cc air 4 to be 450 isntead of 150, would that make it op ? would ele became op ? if they just outright buff all ele weapons ele cc to have double the ammount it would still be lower than things like cvirt, pchrono, etc, that does the same amount of damage or more, have more survivability, more range, etc. When a class is cleary worst on all aspects is not a balance problem ? shouldnt something be done about it ? When you have to rely on others playing certain specs when you are not playing them to clear a content inst this exactly the "bring the class not the player" that they avoided so much ? how come a class can do more damage than other class while having more range, more cleve, much more cc, much more survivability, being much easier, and this not conflict with the power budget philosophy ? the only way i can see it making sense is that not every class has the same amount of power to it, which is dumb and not balanced. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 9 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: Indeed, but to have actuall balance thing should be at least close no ? See, here is the problem is that you came in here saying we have a exception to "bring the player, not the class" ... except that's not true just because you think cweaver is deficient in many ways. The balance does come from the content, not what the top performance is of the classes in whatever catergory you want to choose. I mean, if cweaver is deficient ... OK, but it's not because it's some exception to philosophy. In fact, it's an example of the balancing philosophy if it's deficient. YOu can still play it, be successful ... EVEN in teams. 9 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: When a class is cleary worst on all aspects is not a balance problem ? Depends lots of factors ... and if what you are saying is true or just sensational. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 16 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said: Lol, arguing over which meta spec should be the best Agreed. 16 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said: while core engi rots at the bottom of the pool Disagreed. 6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said: This goes against GW2's design philosophy, "bring the player, not the class," as stated in the thread title. The OP's point is that you shouldn't have to change your class/e-spec just to join certain content and be effective. Good point -and the thing is you don't need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: See, here is the problem is that you came in here saying we have a exception to "bring the player, not the class" ... except that's not true just because you think cweaver is deficient in many ways. The balance does come from the content, not what the top performance is of the classes in whatever catergory you want to choose. I mean, if cweaver is deficient ... OK, but it's not because it's some exception to philosophy. In fact, it's an example of the balancing philosophy if it's deficient. YOu can still play it, be successful ... EVEN in teams. Depends lots of factors ... and if what you are saying is true or just sensational. I can understand what you are saying, but then again do we even need balance at all ? did anet had to buff reaper when it had 30k benchmark ? because you can clear all the content with it, since the easiest fractals up until ht cm, the actions that the balance team does not match to what you are saying, did they have to buff power berserker when it had a 31k damage ? you can clear everything, does it even make sense to the balance team to do anything on pve, also, the power budget is cleary not around content, but around other classes, its a way to compare two classes, class x has a power, class y has b power now you compare a to b and balance around it. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 9 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: I can understand what you are saying, but then again do we even need balance at all ? did anet had to buff reaper when it had 30k benchmark ? because you can clear all the content with it, since the easiest fractals up until ht cm, the actions that the balance team does not match to what you are saying, did they have to buff power berserker when it had a 31k damage ? you can clear everything, does it even make sense to the balance team to do anything on pve, also, the power budget is cleary not around content, but around other classes, its a way to compare two classes, class x has a power, class y has b power now you compare a to b and balance around it. That's weird ... I'm not here to philosophize with you about why we need balance at all. I'm just seeing someone make sensational claims about specs 'not doing anything good' and 'that's a balance issue' when it's not. If it's deficient and you can't use it to be successful, play something else. Anet isn't going to craft specs with specific abilities because unskilled players can't use them and be successful with them. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: That's weird ... I'm not here to philosophize with you about why we need balance at all. I'm just seeing someone make sensational claims about specs 'not doing anything good' and 'that's a balance issue' when it's not. that is a balance issue, what is definition of balance in the first place ? "a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions." and its not the case, you are trying to make a case that the balance is around content, but its cleary not, specially when they stated the power budget philosophy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: That's weird ... I'm not here to philosophize with you about why we need balance at all. I'm just seeing someone make sensational claims about specs 'not doing anything good' and 'that's a balance issue' when it's not. also the idea that as long as a class can clear a content, even if its 100x worse than others, is ok, is so weird, in theory you can still bring the class, but in practice you wont, because its just so much worse, just look at the data, how can you have a 0.34% player rate and say that is ok ? Edited February 6 by tiagotatico.6304 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 11 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: that is a balance issue, what is definition of balance in the first place ? "a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions." and its not the case, you are trying to make a case that the balance is around content, but its cleary not, specially when they stated the power budget philosophy The definition of balance is what Anet decides, not how you define it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 9 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: also the idea that as long as a class can clear a content, even if its 100x worse than others, is ok, is so weird, in theory you can still bring the class, but in practice you wont, because its just so much worse, just look at the data, how can you have a 0.34% player rate and say that is ok ? being sensational doesn't make your argument for you. cweaver is 100 times worse than other classes? Just no. Again, it's NOT a problem is a specific spec or build is a low choice for a particular encounter. Not everything can perform at the same level. That's expected and it's realistic. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: The definition of balance is what Anet decides, not how you define it. its the literal definition 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: being sensational doesn't make your argument for you. cweaver is 100 times worse than other classes? Just no. Again, it's NOT a problem is a specific spec or build is a low choice for a particular encounter. Not everything can perform at the same level. That's expected and it's realistic. i never said it was 100 times, but according to you it can 10000x times, as long as it can clear its balanced, this is literally what you said, since balance is around content, but its much worse, im not being sensational, make the test, try to play weaver on fights like ankka cm and see the results 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 4 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: its the literal definition OK ... that doesn't mean it's the one Anet's using. I mean, you can TRY to beat Anet over the head with a dictionary ... might work for you. Didn't work when other people did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 8 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: ... but according to you it can 10000x times, as long as it can clear its balanced, this is literally what you said, since balance is around content, but its much worse, im not being sensational, make the test, try to play weaver on fights like ankka cm and see the results I never said any such nonsense. I'm simply telling you that cweaver being deficient is not necessarily a balancing issue because there isn't any indication that classes are balanced with respect to each other's capabilities. It's simply not a problem that cweaver doesn't have the same toolset of other classes. That's INTENDED. Classes are designed to not be the same as other ones. It's funny you use the balance philosophy to justify things you want on a class ... but you don't use it to understand the things a class doesn't have. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: I never said any such nonsense. I'm simply telling you that cweaver being deficient is not necessarily a balancing issue because there isn't any indication that classes are balanced with respect to each other's capabilities. It's simply not a problem that cweaver doesn't have the same toolset of other classes. That's INTENDED. Classes are designed to not be the same as other ones. You did said "balance is around content as long as a class can clear it its balanced" so it can be as many times as you want. This design only makes sense if classes have strenght and weakness, this is not the case, some only have weakness. Edited February 6 by tiagotatico.6304 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 9 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: You did said "balance is around content as long as a class can clear it its balanced" so it can be as many times as you can. This design only makes sense if classes have strenght and weakness, this is not the case, some only have weakness. The best part of the thread is where you come in, re-define Anet's philosophy for them (I'm sure they didn't ask you), then tell everyone cweaver needs a buff because it's all wrong based on your vision of the philosophy Anet should be using because 'literal definition'. I can tell you how it ends. Leonardo drowns, the Titanic sinks. I saw it before. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: The best part is where YOU come in, tell Anet their own des The best part of the thread is where you come in, re-define Anet's philosophy for them (I'm sure they didn't ask you), then tell them it's all wrong based on your vision of the philosophy they should be using because 'literal definition'. I can tell you how it ends. Leonardo drowns, the Titanic sinks. I saw it before. i love how you are completly ignoring the power budget philosophy from anet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Just now, tiagotatico.6304 said: i love how you are completly ignoring the power budget philosophy from anet Maybe ... but you can be certain who isn't ignoring THEIR philosophy is Anet. Which is why it's absurd you come in here an try to slap everyone around with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Maybe ... but you can be certain who isn't ignoring THEIR philosophy is Anet. Which is why it's absurd you come in here an try to slap everyone around with it. On some cases they are, on outside of classes like mesmer and ele things are about even, but those 2 are not following the power budget, you dont have to be a genius to state that, cweaver is literally a worse version than cvirt, it has less damage on golem, in some cases much less damage on real encounters, CO cm is one example https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/dagda. even on the last patch cvirt had more damage despite the hammer doing 46k on golem, also ankka cm too https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/ankka, while having much less survivability, less range, much less cc, much less cleve, being harder, having very expensive utilities, having no defensive options such as distortion, not block available such as sword 4, having less condi burst, its just a much worse build 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) Just now, tiagotatico.6304 said: On some cases they are, on outside of classes like mesmer and ele things are about even, but those 2 are not following the power budget, you dont have to be a genius to state that, cweaver is literally a worse version than cvirt, it has less damage on golem, in some cases much less damage on real encounters, CO cm is one example https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/dagda. even on the last patch cvirt had more damage despite the hammer doing 46k on golem, also ankka cm too https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/ankka, while having much less survivability, less range, much less cc, much less cleve, being harder, having very expensive utilities, having no defensive options such as distortion, not block available such as sword 4, having less condi burst, its just a much worse build Again, I'm not arguing with you about how deficient cweaver is (even though I think you are exaggerating the issues it has). My point is simply that you don't get to cherry pick Anet's philosophy to justify how you want things to work. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Again, I'm not arguing with you about how deficient cweaver is. That doesn't even have anything to do with the point I'm making to you. how does not go against the power budget if is deficient ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Just now, tiagotatico.6304 said: how does not go against the power budget if is deficient ? Because power budget is just one part of the whole philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts