tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 (edited) 5 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said: It is long past time for you to post the builds you're complaining about, then. Arguing about it in the abstract is going in circles; i.e. nowhere. Which Weaver build are you talking about, and which Virtuoso build? Please post chat-code or build-editor links so we can all see for ourselves exactly what you're talking about. im talking about condition weaver, i dont think vindi is unbalanced, the problem lies on the extremes of this case, like cvirt having high cc for no cost, and cweaver having no cc, and if he wants to add the cost if very high, this is the cweaver : https://snowcrows.com/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition-weaver you use scepter warhorn, scepter has no cc, and warhorn has 2, on air 4, and water 4, each one of them has 150 cc, weaver has a dual attack cc on scepter on air/earth with 150 cc, but you actually can only do 300 cc, because of the amount of time necessary to reach all of this cc, the best case scenario would be if you are already on earth, and your elemental swap is ready to use, now this is kinda bad because you dont want to stay on earth, you just go to use a few skills and leave, but anyway, starting on earth you go air, you can use the dual attack for 150cc, then you swap to water, you can use air 4 cc, and then you swap for another element, being able to use water 4, this takes a while, on the best case it will take 3 elemental swaps with alac it will be close to 10s, and most of the ccs dont last that longer, the worst case is around 13s, being even worse, if you start on fire, which more often than not you do, because outside weave self you spend 66% of the time on fire and 33% on earth Edited February 4 by tiagotatico.6304 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 So you're bemoaning the lack of utility on a dps spec, even when the creators of it list that as a con of the spec? You don't have to rigidly adhere to any meta build btw- you are free to swap out weapons and/or utilities either as you like or as the situation demands. Would you rather fail the encounter due to lack of cc or pass it by doing a few K less dps? You can change your build any time out of combat too, so it's not like you're stuck with it for the whole instance (excepting a few encounters). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeyeti.8347 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 5 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said: Hmm.... Weaver-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 8 Elementalist CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 24 Weaver total available CC: 32 possible options Virtuoso-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 2 Mesmer CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 13 Virtuoso total available CC: 15 possible options Weaver has more than double the available CC options that Virtuoso does. Your complaint is literal nonsense. Huh i think you forgot ele hasn't 4 weapon switch , we ain't talking about the possibilities , we are talking about the possibilities in real time fight , not theorical from whole spec , and even as weaver you want to switch as often as possible , making a lot of those cc not available when needed. virtuoso condi plays with dagger/sword dagger/focus , making it possible to use every skill 4 for cc any time , that makes 1 with the weapon switch cd , f3 is available 100% of time and blades fill up so fast youd don't have to spare it for dps , changing the ult who only make 10 stacks of bleed (even less than focus 5) for moa is literally 1k-500 dps loss , tahts nothing , and if that's still not enough you can use one of your sigil who deals 300 breakbar damage , all those skills combined can go up to 1200 1400 cc damage , thats huge ! Weaver in any configuration with 0 cd on all his attunement will never reach such a big number (you can play with ice bow and storm hammer if you want but that's counter productiv as hell and wouldn't result in a 500-1k dps loss more like 4-5k dps loss). So your argument here has literally no sense at all and is out of context. You should probably try those two classes against huge cc bar boss alone and see the difference , the theory is good , but when you have 0 practice , theory is useless. Reminder the cc bar last like 5-7 secs on every boss , i don't think you will have time to do the 32 options of weaver cc .... lol , i didn't remind the weaver has a weapon swap though ... your post is a "duuuhhh" post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeyeti.8347 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 30 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said: So you're bemoaning the lack of utility on a dps spec, even when the creators of it list that as a con of the spec? You don't have to rigidly adhere to any meta build btw- you are free to swap out weapons and/or utilities either as you like or as the situation demands. Would you rather fail the encounter due to lack of cc or pass it by doing a few K less dps? You can change your build any time out of combat too, so it's not like you're stuck with it for the whole instance (excepting a few encounters). That's nice but you know when you choose a spec with the lowest armor and the lowest hp you expect to deal more damage than a 22k hp spec who is easier to play ... or else what justify the lower armor and the lower hp ? And there are dps spec who give a lot to the group with not hindering their effectiveness , firebrand has good uptime on prot. and résolution , scourge can add up barrier and cleanse condi pretty easily , herald full dps can add up might and some other boons pretty effectively , and all the others who bring countless cc like virtuoso , reaper , harb , etc etc ... So there is indeed an unbalance in pve , especially for endgame , as many said wingman isn't maybe the 100% traduction of what playrate there is in endgame , but those who add their logs to teh wingman are mostly dedicated players , and for some (obvious) reason they choose to not mostly play specific specs , it's kind of disturbing the mech was at a 33 % playrate when he was op and now you have virtuoso and herald slowly taking the cake ... curious ? do the mainstream raiders plays what is fun to them , or do they play what is effective , for me its' pretty simple , being ineffective isn't fun , so i've chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, Funky.4861 said: So you're bemoaning the lack of utility on a dps spec, even when the creators of it list that as a con of the spec? You don't have to rigidly adhere to any meta build btw- you are free to swap out weapons and/or utilities either as you like or as the situation demands. Would you rather fail the encounter due to lack of cc or pass it by doing a few K less dps? You can change your build any time out of combat too, so it's not like you're stuck with it for the whole instance (excepting a few encounters). what is the pro of it then ? if you say damage that is other builds that can do more damage, while having more utility, what im asking is to balance this out, increase the cc, increase the utility etc, the discrepance between a cvirt and cweaver is huge, cweaver has all downsides and cvirt has all upsides 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 42 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said: So you're bemoaning the lack of utility on a dps spec, even when the creators of it list that as a con of the spec? You don't have to rigidly adhere to any meta build btw- you are free to swap out weapons and/or utilities either as you like or as the situation demands. Would you rather fail the encounter due to lack of cc or pass it by doing a few K less dps? You can change your build any time out of combat too, so it's not like you're stuck with it for the whole instance (excepting a few encounters). So can the other specs which can not only do it far better, but without giving up a ton of damage in the process. All the OP is asking is that this stuff be taken into account when balancing, which they absolutely should be doing (power budget and all that). 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZephidelGRS.9520 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Weaver having low access to CC is a direct result of how clunky Ele is designed, and not the game balance's fault as a whole. When your entire CC kit is locked behind an element..................that needs global cooldown to access...................and your utilities offer very little help to make up for it...................yeah *sad noises*. Meanwhile, literally no other professions, core or especs, have this CC accessibility problem. Here you are just picking the one profession that has this issue and make it a universal problem, when it's not. It's more a problem of Anet needing to seriously rethink Ele, because clearly they don't know what to do with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, ZephidelGRS.9520 said: Weaver having low access to CC is a direct result of how clunky Ele is designed, and not the game balance's fault as a whole. When your entire CC kit is locked behind an element..................that needs global cooldown to access...................and your utilities offer very little help to make up for it...................yeah *sad noises*. Meanwhile, literally no other professions, core or especs, have this CC accessibility problem. Here you are just picking the one profession that has this issue and make it a universal problem, when it's not. It's more a problem of Anet needing to seriously rethink Ele, because clearly they don't know what to do with it. Easy fix has been suggested for years: unravel as an f5. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedrik.3109 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Op was not kicked due to CC. Balance will never be perfect due to the amount of variables. Any class/spec has enough of ANYTHING to be viable in everything with a few niche caveats. All I'm seeing typed is uh huh but Cvirt can... What is the point of this thread again? Oh, irrational whining about pointless differences that have no effect on gameplay, driven by gamer ego. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, Jedrik.3109 said: Op was not kicked due to CC. Balance will never be perfect due to the amount of variables. Any class/spec has enough of ANYTHING to be viable in everything with a few niche caveats. All I'm seeing typed is uh huh but Cvirt can... What is the point of this thread again? Oh, irrational whining about pointless differences that have no effect on gameplay, driven by gamer ego. numbers wise cweaver has a lot of issues, now you dont have to believe me, go to an ankka cm group with your weaver and watch the reaction, half of the groups they outright ask me to switch or kick, im not trying to say that cvirt needs to be nerfed, im saying that something must be done about cweaver, what is wrong with buffing the amount of cc that a cweaver can do, its so smaller than most of the specs, and would go a long way, the player population when that is a breakbar in the content of elementalist in general drops really hard because elementalist has a cc problem, cweaver is the biggest contender for this, but in general they could just buff all ele cc by double and it would have an avarage cc at best, its just way too much unbalanced and very easy to fix. It has difference on the gameplay, most of the cc checks on end game content will wipe the group if you dont do enough, i dont understand what is irrational about that, maybe you should try to grow 2 brain cells before comenting 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKatt.6740 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said: It's more a problem of Anet needing to seriously rethink Ele, because clearly they don't know what to do with it. Oh man, I felt that. For YEARS I've tinkered with my ele here and there because I like elementalist. Back in GW1 ele was my second favorite behind mesmer and ahead of ranger. But back in GW1 ele was different. Elementalist was the intellectuals profession. It had a massive number of skills that you needed to know, and you needed to know where you were going and what you were fighting if you wanted to survive. Walking into the Shiverpeaks or Kryta with water magic was a good way to get killed. Walking into the Ring of Fire with fire magic was likewise. You prepared for where you were going and had lots of pre-saved builds so you could grab what you needed before walking out the door. GW2 however wanted you to be a universalist. They gave you the ability to switch between elements on the fly with the supposed intention of being able to spin Fire, Water, Lightning, and Stone together like the Avatar. But it doesn't work like that. it never worked like that. 99% of your time is spent in Fire because that's where your damage is. Water is almost exclusively healing, Lightning is almost exclusively CC, and Earth is almost exclusively Tank. No DPS check is going to peak in water magic, or the others for that matter, and you could play through an entire story, mission, raid, strike, anything without ever touching Earth magic. It's almost like they had the designers work out how the elementalist should work, and then the engineers lost all the notes and just threw it together with the gaming triangle and said "Here, you can swap between DPS, Tank, and Healer whenever you want. have fun." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeTect.5918 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/3/2024 at 6:13 PM, tiagotatico.6304 said: First i'm not saying that they should delete CC bars in pve, the problem lies the difference between classes in bringing CC to the encounter, some classes have a very very very small amount of cc on its rotation kit available to use, some have a lot, and i think this can go a good way to balance things if that is a donwside to having big cc, but on the current state that the game is that is none, some builds happen to have more cc and some dont for no cost, meaning that in a lot of fights, specially the new ones, you can only play certain classes. The most extreme cases of this problem is cweaver and cvirt, they have similar damage on the golem but cvirt damage is more reliable, and has a natural burst, cweaver has its problems meaning that on real fights it will do less damage, you can check wingman for that, even when hammer was on 46k dps on a lot of encounters cvirt had more damage than cweaver, and sometimes a lot more, all this is not necessary a problem because that is other things besides damage that a dps player can offer, like CC, however cweaver has 0 cc on its rotation while cvirt has 250cc from bladesong dissonance, chaos signet for 300, sword 4 200 and focus 4 150, a total of 900cc, now the elementalist player can take a small dps loss and switch to non condition elements to cc, the best way to do that is from earth go to air, use the dual attack = 150 cc and then switch to another element to use air 4 = 150cc on total 300cc, or go from fire to air, and then earth, this will take more time and may not be possible, meaning that you also has dealy some time on earth which is really bad for dps, not only that but a cvirt can take moa for a 800 dps loss and take moa adding 600 cc, and btw this dps loss is lower than the weaver has by having to delay earth and changing to air. This creates a problem that you basically have no reason to play a certain dps class, because the other has everything better, cc damage, utiltiy etc, also you even risk to be being able to clear an encounter if you have too many people playing a class that has a lower amount of cc, go with 6 cweaver on ankka cm and see what happens, while going with cvirts is easy mode, so the problem basically lies on : why cc is not being accountable on balance when every new encounter has some necessity on cc, and also a very high amount cc ? its fine for a build to have a lot of cc, this creates a nice dinamic, but only if it has some donwside, like damage, but instead you have a lot of builds that can do everything and more with no cost, and you have some that cant do most of the things and when it does is worse. To see this we can use the wingman data, overall in all game modes on pve instanced content weaver has a 1.33% player rate while virt has around 14%, and this becomes a even worse problem when you analyse those fights where you need to cc, on ankka cm virtuoso has a 30% player rate, while weaver has a 0.66% playerate, and btw this was last patch where at least you a equal damage than a cvirt on this encounter, on this patch i will not be surprise if will be on 0.05%, why this has been allowed for so long ? why cc is not the part of the power budget that the new balance team talked about ? why utiltiy is not the part ? its only damage on the golem ? the current state on balance for a some classes are really sad Not sure what you mean with "chaos signet", probably Signet of Domination? You do realize that activating this signet shreds your condi dps by 180 condi dmg right? Activating that will shred your total dps by around 5% (without might its 10%). Thats over 2k dps loss for a little cc. Additionally, sword 4 and focus 4 are not in the dps rotation so activating any of these results in a dps loss too. I dont know what you have with virtuoso but there are builds with far more cc which even have them built into their rota, unlike cvirt. Besides that, you do realize cvirt has like no Soft cc like chill, cripple, blind and so on? Just for your Information, chill does 33 break Bar dmg per second. Thats kind of a lot. You didnt mention any soft cc in your post. Weaver has good access to weakness, cripple and chill and some blindness depending on the weapon. Stacking multiple soft cc condis can easily deal 50+ break bar dmg per second. Weaver has pretty good access to these. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoftFootpaws.9134 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) i think the biggest issue is that the balance team seems sometimes disconnected from the game. for example, for many years they were afraid to give reaper any real damage because the saw reaper as a tank that would be best in slot if it could both take damage and deal it, even though in reality the mechanics of reaper shroud mean you have to avoid almost every enemy attack or lose all your damage unlike other classes. another example is that they seem to see elementalist as this unstoppable power house when properly played even though one mistake is always downstate. i feel like the balance for the classes for everything from health to damage to crowd control to even just how much range it has (this is very important in some fights!) is done completely in a vacuum without taking any other data into account like how often the class goes down, or fails a breakbar and so on. this is strange because they should have a mountain of data from metrics to tell them all this, and to find the coorelations, but they don't? Edited February 4 by SoftFootpaws.9134 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said: Not sure what you mean with "chaos signet", probably Signet of Domination? You do realize that activating this signet shreds your condi dps by 180 condi dmg right? Activating that will shred your total dps by around 5% (without might its 10%). Thats over 2k dps loss for a little cc. Additionally, sword 4 and focus 4 are not in the dps rotation so activating any of these results in a dps loss too. I dont know what you have with virtuoso but there are builds with far more cc which even have them built into their rota, unlike cvirt. Besides that, you do realize cvirt has like no Soft cc like chill, cripple, blind and so on? Just for your Information, chill does 33 break Bar dmg per second. Thats kind of a lot. You didnt mention any soft cc in your post. Weaver has good access to weakness, cripple and chill and some blindness depending on the weapon. Stacking multiple soft cc condis can easily deal 50+ break bar dmg per second. Weaver has pretty good access to these. the problem with soft cc is how the cc bars are design to be breaked really fast, and also the fact that they dont stack with each other for cc increase, only duration increase, so because of that its not that valuable, if you have one class that can do immob, other doing it will not help it, futhermore chill is only available on water, cripple is very low duration, imob is only available with hammer that just got gutted, or dagger main hand or staff, but those are ignored by anet. But lets actually see how much cweaver perform in terms of soft cc with its current meta build for condi dps, scepter/warhorn, on its rotation you have 5s of soft cc weakness from scepter dual attacks fire/earth, if it last the entire 5 seconds it will do 100 defiance bar damage, you also have 3s of cripple thanks to Earthen Blast when entering earth, which if last the entire 3s it will do 45 of defiance bar, you also have 2 seconds of blind that sums 40 defiance bar, that is 185 of defiance bar if you are the only one that provides that soft cc, which more often than not you wont. the dps loss from the signet is only really a dps loss that big if you use all the time the same logic applies to sword focus 4 but in a very tamed amount of damage loss, which you dont, you only use for cc and its available for a lot of time, its a similar damage loss that a cweaver has to take to go to other elements to cc, and even if you dont use it, its still 600, that is a lot, more than 3 times than cweaver, much more reliable, and all of that while cvirt having more damage, more burst, more range, more survivability, more cleve, better defensive options for no cost, more flexibility on utilities, like the ilu signet, its only a 1k dps loss, the elite is like 600, from which you can slot moa to do 600 cc. Lastly, yes others specs can do a lot of cc, but this often comes with some form of downside, like being meele, doing less damage, etc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: what is the pro of it then ? if you say damage that is other builds that can do more damage, while having more utility, what im asking is to balance this out, increase the cc, increase the utility etc, the discrepance between a cvirt and cweaver is huge, cweaver has all downsides and cvirt has all upsides The point of it is to do what it takes to clear the encounter. Since you linked the build you already knew what its pro's and cons were, and you happily soldiered on knowing it had crap cc. Other partymembers called for you to incorporate more cc and you refused- this is why you got kicked (for not being a team player). If you party-up knowing a boss has break phases and deliberately inflict your cc-kitten class on the party, are they wrong for calling you out on it? Especially as you also have a mesmer which could fill that role? It amuses me that you pick on condi virtuoso so much when you have one in your back pocket. Why don't you highlight the other dps specs with good cc and which don't have to sacrifice too much damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 3 hours ago, Funky.4861 said: The point of it is to do what it takes to clear the encounter. Since you linked the build you already knew what its pro's and cons were, and you happily soldiered on knowing it had crap cc. Other partymembers called for you to incorporate more cc and you refused- this is why you got kicked (for not being a team player). If you party-up knowing a boss has break phases and deliberately inflict your cc-kitten class on the party, are they wrong for calling you out on it? Especially as you also have a mesmer which could fill that role? It amuses me that you pick on condi virtuoso so much when you have one in your back pocket. Why don't you highlight the other dps specs with good cc and which don't have to sacrifice too much damage? so basically what you are saying is that its completly fine to leave a very much unbalanced build as it is ? specially if is underperforming ? The reason why im talking about cvirt is because its the worst offender on this, while having all the upsides, at least other builds like bladesworn that can do a lot of cc has alot of downsides 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 At first, reading the title, this was an instant down vote. But it's a "Nerf cvirt" post in disguise. So have my upvote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) Here is what's interesting to me. If a class is limited by its toolset, that's EXACTLY when you see people that play it 'bring the player, not the class' to the game. The implication seems to be good play makes up for class skill deficiencies. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matoro.9708 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Lol, arguing over which meta spec should be the best while core engi rots at the bottom of the pool 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Here is what's interesting to me. If a class is limited by its toolset, that's EXACTLY when you see people that play it 'bring the player, not the class' to the game. The implication seems to be good play makes up for class skill deficiencies. the data says otherwise 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaiawolf.8261 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 On 2/4/2024 at 6:43 PM, Funky.4861 said: If you party-up knowing a boss has break phases and deliberately inflict your cc-kitten class on the party, are they wrong for calling you out on it? Especially as you also have a mesmer which could fill that role? This goes against GW2's design philosophy, "bring the player, not the class," as stated in the thread title. The OP's point is that you shouldn't have to change your class/e-spec just to join certain content and be effective. This is a primary goal of the game, as stated by the developers. The OP is just asking them to live up to it. 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: the data says otherwise That doesn't make sense. What data do you have that suggests otherwise? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 27 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said: This goes against GW2's design philosophy, "bring the player, not the class," as stated in the thread title. The OP's point is that you shouldn't have to change your class/e-spec just to join certain content and be effective. This is a primary goal of the game, as stated by the developers. The OP is just asking them to live up to it. and the counterpoint to that is that good players do EXACTLY that ... play what they want and be effective doing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaiawolf.8261 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: and the counterpoint to that is that good players do EXACTLY that ... play what they want and be effective doing it. I don't see how this counters my comment. The post I quoted told the OP to not bring a certain class because it sucks at certain content. I stated the game's philosophy is that the player should be able to achieve effective results with any class. Aren't we saying the same thing in different ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) 5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: That doesn't make sense. What data do you have that suggests otherwise? the cweaver player rate drops on fights where you need heavy amounts of cc, such as ankka cm, you can see that here: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/ankka the weaver playrate is 0.34%, while on strikes the popularity of weaver on strikes is 1.12% https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity reduction of almost 4 times, we have to define here what is being effective, being carried on cc unless you are doing boon dps levels of dps is not the case, being asked to switch or outrgiht being kicked even before the fight starts for playing cweaver cleary tells you something, but that is kinda crazy that people that tells that its completely fine dont even touch this type of content on cweaver Edited February 6 by tiagotatico.6304 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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