tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Because power budget is just one part of the whole philosophy. all right, so what is the other part of the balance philosophy that is making ele worse ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 4 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: all right, so what is the other part of the balance philosophy that is making ele worse ? That doesn't make sense ... the balance philosophy isn't making 'ele worse'. But, if you aren't familiar with what the balance philosophy says and the parts relevant to why cweaver doesn't' have CC for example, you should go look it up before you continue to argue with people. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: That doesn't make sense ... the balance philosophy isn't making 'ele worse'. But, if you aren't familiar with what the balance philosophy says, you should before you continue to argue with people while quoting it. lets recall everything, we agree that cweaver is just a worse cvirt, we agree that the power budget exist, if that was only power budget then cweaver would be brough up somehow, like damage, cc, range, idk, somehow it would have be buffed, but you said that is only one part, so surely that is another part stoping this from happening, im asking you what is it 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 21 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: lets recall everything, we agree that cweaver is just a worse cvirt, we agree that the power budget exist, if that was only power budget then cweaver would be brough up somehow, like damage, cc, range, idk, somehow it would have be buffed, but you said that is only one part, so surely that is another part stoping this from happening, im asking you what is it Your 'recall' is pretty bad ... I didn't agree to any of that. You're simply fishing for a cweaver buff and because you can't justify any specific one, you just throw out 'exception to balance' and think that closes the book on it. The reality is that NOTHING about Anet's philosophy suggests cweaver should have anymore than it already has, even if you think it not being a top pick in an encounter suggests otherwise. Again, it's not a problem if there are encounters where certain builds aren't desirable. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Your 'recall' is pretty bad ... I didn't agree to any of that. You're simply fishing for a cweaver buff and cause you can't justify any specific one, you just throw out 'exception to balance'. 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Again, I'm not arguing with you about how deficient cweaver is (even though I think you are exaggerating the issues it has). My point is simply that you don't get to cherry pick Anet's philosophy to justify how you want things to work. 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Because power budget is just one part of the whole philosophy. Also if you think that im exaggerating, please enligh me how, i can name it and number it, the cc difference is on the post, the damage difference you can see on wingman, on some cases goes beyond 10%, on utility points virtuoso loses ~1k dps from ilu signet, meaning that he can just replace for a 2% dps loss, and replaces with stuff like cleanse mantra or stab mantra, or even more cc, while cweaver has to take a 3k (7%) dps loss and does not have anything that good to replace it to being with, cvirt can replace moa to do instantly 600 cc for a ~600 dps loss, if cweaver wants to use tornado, and have a slow cc, and you cant do damage while on tornado, you have to take a around 4k dps loss, completly kills your burst, prob one of the worst condi ramp up in the game, same levels of mirage, you reach 30k on only on 25s, on survivability cweaver has a barrier every 12 s due to earth/fire duo attack, its around 520, which translates in 43 barrier/ second and can use the healing signet, healing 200 per every skill, on the best scenario you will do 3 actions / second, and on worst you can do 1, lets go with 3, you will heal 600 + 43 of barrier, that is 643, cvirt has a life steal, which will heal for 1.2k / s on its current dps, double the value, you can cleary see this difference on fights like q2, where a weaver has to take arcane to able to pylon kite, while a cvirt does not have to take anything to do it, only mimic and teleport to get the balls, but so weaver, which will result in much less damage, on defensive options i cvirt has distortion, a very strong invul for free, also you have a block on your dps set, on range cweaver has 900 range on scepter and its meele on warhorn, cvirt is full 1200 ranged, only has one professional meele skill, you can just not use it and spend the blades in other way, cweaver is just harder, period, specially with weave self. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 19 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: Also if you think that im exaggerating, please enligh me how, i can name it and number it, the cc difference is on the post, the damage difference you can see on wingman, on some cases goes beyond 10%, on utility points virtuoso loses ~1k dps from ilu signet, meaning that he can just replace for a 2% dps loss, and replaces with stuff like cleanse mantra or stab mantra, or even more cc, while cweaver has to take a 3k (7%) dps loss and does not have anything that good to replace it to being with, cvirt can replace moa to do instantly 600 cc for a ~600 dps loss, if cweaver wants to use tornado, and have a slow cc, and you cant do damage while on tornado, you have to take a around 4k dps loss, completly kills your burst, prob one of the worst condi ramp up in the game, same levels of mirage, you reach 30k on only on 25s, on survivability cweaver has a barrier every 12 s due to earth/fire duo attack, its around 520, which translates in 43 barrier/ second and can use the healing signet, healing 200 per every skill, on the best scenario you will do 3 actions / second, and on worst you can do 1, lets go with 3, you will heal 600 + 43 of barrier, that is 643, cvirt has a life steal, which will heal for 1.2k / s on its current dps, double the value, you can cleary see this difference on fights like q2, where a weaver has to take arcane to able to pylon kite, while a cvirt does not have to take anything to do it, only mimic and teleport to get the balls, but so weaver, which will result in much less damage, on defensive options i cvirt has distortion, a very strong invul for free, also you have a block on your dps set, on range cweaver has 900 range on scepter and its meele on warhorn, cvirt is full 1200 ranged, only has one professional meele skill, you can just not use it and spend the blades in other way, cweaver is just harder, period, specially with weave self. I see lots of numbers here; problem is that the game isn't played in Excel. What's relevant is people playing it, using it's skills effectively and being successful with it. If cweaver is deficient (again, not going to argue iif it is or isn't), it's not because it has lower numbers on skills or some encounters where it's not desirable. You keep talking about the power budget, except you don't know where cweaver rates on it's power budget. You create a narrative that it's 'bad' when it could be regarded by Anet as something else. The problem here is that you aren't really asking for something specific. You just quote philosophy, interpret it how you see fit and say cweaver is an exception to it thinking this justifies it getting anything. That doesn't make sense. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: I see lots of numbers here; problem is that the game isn't played in Excel. What's relevant is people playing it, using it's skills effectively and being successful with it. If cweaver is deficient (again, not going to argue iif it is or isn't), it's not because it has lower numbers or some encounters where it's not desirable. Deficiency isn't just a question of who does what better. You keep talking about the power budget, except you don't know where cweaver rates on it's power budget. The problem here is that you aren't really asking for something specific. You just quote philosophy, interpret it how you see fit and say cweaver is an exception to it thinking this justifies it getting anything. That doesn't make sense. because power budget is an abstract concept, you cant really compare damage to cc, to survivability, to defensive options, however you should try your best to at least make it so some specs that has one better has one worst, its hard to balance this, but the problem is when comparing cweaver with cvirt, cweaver has literally, and i mean literally, everything worse, so surely if they are keeping true to the power budget, they would have done something to cweaver or cvirt, in this case is very easy to see that power budget is not being applied to this case in specific 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) Just now, tiagotatico.6304 said: because power budget is an abstract concept, you cant really compare damage to cc, to survivability, to defensive options, however you should try your best to at least make it so some specs that has one better has one worst, its hard to balance this, but the problem is when comparing cweaver with cvirt, cweaver has literally, and i mean literally, everything worse, so surely if they are keeping true to the power budget, they would have done something to cweaver or cvirt, in this case is very easy to see that power budget is not being applied to this case in specific Yeah exactly ... so you can't say it's deficient in it's power budget. You just don't know. Again, just looking at numbers is not how this works to determine one thing is 'literally worse' than something else. There isn't anything 'easy' about understanding how Anet applies it's philosophy. That's just some crap people say when they want to use it to justify getting things. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Yeah exactly ... so you can't say it's deficient in it's power budget. You just don't know. i can say because it has everything worse, if at least it had one advantange then i could not say, it would be very dubious still, but its does not have, literally 0, when a sepc does cc and less damage its hard to see wether or not it should be the case, its the balance job to judge that, but as you can see, in this case, that is a strengh, and weakness, however when comparing cweaver to cvirt you have literally 0 points to cweaver literally 0 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) Just now, tiagotatico.6304 said: i can say because it has everything worse, if at least it had one advantange then i could not say, it would be very dubious still, but its does not have, literally 0, when a sepc does cc and less damage its hard to see wether or not it should be the case, its the balance job to judge that, but as you can see, in this case, that is a strengh, and weakness, however when comparing cweaver to cvirt you have literally 0 points to cweaver literally 0 No you can't, because the game isn't just about counting numbers. It's not about just thinking all your numbers are lower, so you are worse than the next guy ... unbalanced. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: No you can't, because the game isn't just about counting numbers. so besides what i said, what is exactly the counted on the power budget ? nor me, or the players, can see this hidden advatnage the cweaver has Edited February 6 by tiagotatico.6304 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 6 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: so besides what i said, what is exactly the counted on the power budget ? Like you already said... it's abstract. Only Anet knows how they consider power budget in balance. What I DO know is that we don't know. Again, you're going to try to boil this down to 'numbers' and talk about things you acknowledge are abstract or elements you cherry pick to argue. What I'm going to say is that it's not just about numbers on skills. It can't be. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Like you already said... it's abstract. Only Anet knows how they consider power budget in balance. What I DO know is that you don't. Again, you're going to try to boil this down to 'numbers' to argue. What I'm going to say is that it's not just about numbers on skills. It can't be. because numbers are absolute, numbers are never wrong, you cant argue against numbers, you can argue about giving a highter value to a certain aspect of the power budget, like damage, or cc, but in the end is about numbers, when the balance team makes change, they make numbers changes, or in the end, it became numbers change. The problem is that im having a hard time finding this aspect, and looking at the popularity, its not only me, dont you remember that solar was removed from the balance team because of this same difference between specs, on his case everything was much worse tho, and for this exactly reason that the new balance team announced the new philosophy, the power budget 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 4 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: because numbers are absolute, numbers are never wrong, you cant argue against numbers, you can argue about giving a highter value to a certain aspect of the power budget, like damage, or cc, but in the end is about numbers, when the balance team makes change, they make numbers changes, or in the end, it became numbers change. The problem is that im having a hard time finding this aspect, and looking at the popularity, its not only me, dont you remember that solar was removed from the balance team because of this same difference between specs, on his case everything was much worse tho, and for this exactly reason that the new balance team announced the new philosophy, the power budget Sure, and I'm just going to tell you it's not just about the numbers. So if you just want to boil down balance to number comparisons between classes, prepare yourself for many, frequent instances of confusion and disappointment because it's safe to say that most instances of class changes don't work how you think balance should. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Sure, and I'm just going to tell you it's not just about the numbers. So if you just want to boil down balance to number comparisons between classes, prepare yourself for many instances of confusion and disappointment because it's safe to say that most instances of balance don't work how you think. i really want to see you tell me an aspect that is not numbers, because i cant think in any. even difficulty can be boiled down to numbers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 3 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: i really want to see you tell me an aspect that is not numbers, because i cant think in any. even difficulty can be boiled down to numbers Again, I'm simply telling you that Anet isn't just balancing because 'numbers' so when you sit here and pretend you understand their balance philosophy because cvirt > cweaver ... you don't. I mean, what convinces you that Anet using their philosophy didn't lead them to this situation in the first place? Yet somehow, you think you interpreting their philosophy for them will give the right answer, because you know it better than they do, probably because 'numbers'? That's an interesting view. Give it time, you will see. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Again, I'm simply telling you that Anet isn't just balancing because 'numbers' so when you sit here and pretend you understand their balance philosophy because cvirt > cweaver ... you don't. power budget is the potency of what a build can offer (their words), pve wise you can number what a build can offer, that is nothing hidden or obscure, but lets assume for some reason, they are balancing around, idk, fun, fun cant be numered, you know elementalist players have a lot of fun playing their build, so it should be weaker, does it not means that we should criticize it ? because that is an implication of what power budget means, on pve, and on every game mode as well, also if that is the case is that any reason to even say anything about power budget, because at the end of the day, solar was balancing around power budget, but it was his, very much biased, power budget, i think its very fair to assume that power budget will balance a build around aspects of what a build can offer in a certain game mode, trying to be as fair as possible, and that is not that i already stated that a build can offer on instanced content or cant but numbered, as a matter of fact, you can see this balance on most of the other builds, for example, spellbreaker is a very strong build, you have perma stab, you have a lot of cc, you have a built in defensive options, but you have less damage you can see the power budget here, and you can see it for most of the cases, its cleary based on numbers, and numbers only, Also before Soto things were pretty balanced, because at least cweaver had more damage, cvirt was like 4k lower than what is now, still was much popular but at least you had a reason to play cweaver, what happened from before soto to now on the power budget that made cvirt to have more damage ? did somehow on some aspect cweaver got better ? its actually got worse, because before soto you had more cc on focus, instead of using warhorn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 19 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: power budget is the potency of what a build can offer (their words), pve wise you can number what a build can offer, that is nothing hidden or obscure, but lets assume for some reason, they are balancing around, idk, fun, fun cant be numered, you know elementalist players have a lot of fun playing their build, so it should be weaker, does it not means that we should criticize it ? because that is an implication of what power budget means, on pve, and on every game mode as well, also if that is the case is that any reason to even say anything about power budget, because at the end of the day, solar was balancing around power budget, but it was his, very much biased, power budget, i think its very fair to assume that power budget will balance a build around aspects of what a build can offer in a certain game mode, trying to be as fair as possible, and that is not that i already stated that a build can offer on instanced content or cant but numbered, as a matter of fact, you can see this balance on most of the other builds, for example, spellbreaker is a very strong build, you have perma stab, you have a lot of cc, you have a built in defensive options, but you have less damage you can see the power budget here, and you can see it for most of the cases, its cleary based on numbers, and numbers only, Also before Soto things were pretty balanced, because at least cweaver had more damage, cvirt was like 4k lower than what is now, still was much popular but at least you had a reason to play cweaver, what happened from before soto to now on the power budget that made cvirt to have more damage ? did somehow on some aspect cweaver got better ? its actually got worse, because before soto you had more cc on focus, instead of using warhorn You don't get to define what power budget is and how it works to justify changes you want to the game. That doesn't make sense. For all we know, cweaver might meet or even exceed its power budget because Anet determines that with some method we don't know about. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: You don't get to define what power budget is and how it works to justify changes you want to the game. That doesn't make sense. For all you know, cweaver meets or even exceeds its power budget because Anet determines that, not you. but it does not make any sense, what exactly makes cweaver so strong ? you cant tell, i cant tell, nobody can tell, only the balance team can tell, they can keep thinking that cweaver is very strong while the playerbase goes close to 0, but hey, cweaver is very strong What you are saying is so much non sense, its almost like you are chilling for the company "everything they do is right, everytime they know better, no matter what they do they will be right", they backing track partially on the mirage nerfs after the community told anet of how much, ON NUMBERS, mirage would be tell you exactly that right. Want to know what i think ? i think they are just lazy and are waiting for the new weapons to do any balance Edited February 6 by tiagotatico.6304 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: You don't get to define what power budget is and how it works to justify changes you want to the game. That doesn't make sense. For all you know, cweaver meets or even exceeds its power budget because Anet determines that, not you. also lets not forget that they released the thief axe, 64k dps, very much on the power budget right ? they surely know it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 4 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: but it does not make any sense, what exactly makes cweaver so strong ? you cant tell, i cant tell, nobody can tell, only the balance team can tell, they can keep thinking that cweaver is very strong while the playerbase goes close to 0, but hey, cweaver is very strong What you are saying is so much non sense, its almost like you are chilling for the company "everything they do is right, everytime they know better, no matter what they do they will be right", they backing track partially on the mirage nerfs after the community told anet of how much, ON NUMBERS, mirage would tell you exactly that right. Want to know what i think ? i think they are just lazy and are waiting for the new weapons to do any balance That's funny ... you think all of Anet's balancing decisions made sense or it has something to do with making classes strong. <<snicker>> Again, you don't get to set stage for balancing to get the results you want. You're going to tell us all about how cweaver doesn't meet it's power budget ... when you don't know what that budget is or how it's determined. Good times. I don't think Anet are waiting for anything ... they do balance patches all time. Edited February 6 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: That's funny ... you think all of Anet's balancing decisions made sense or it has something to do with making classes strong. Again, you don't get to set stage for balancing to get the results you want. You're going to tell us all about how cweaver doesn't meet it's power budget ... when you don't know what that budget is or how it's determined. Good times. I don't think Anet are waiting for anything ... they do balance patches all time. i think its very fair to assume that it has to make sense, otherwise what is anet even doing paying people to do it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: i think its very fair to assume that it has to make sense, otherwise what is anet even doing paying people to do it OH you think Anet balancing is about being fair now? You must be new here. Anet's balancing is about one thing: the game working the way they want it to work, because that's their role ... figuring out how things should work. And they give us insight to that with the philosophy. Edited February 7 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 So this is what happens when two people who each have to have the last word get into an argument? I always wondered. 🤷♂️ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bq pd.2148 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 3 hours ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: also lets not forget that they released the thief axe, 64k dps, very much on the power budget right ? they surely know it it was not released but a beta. now compare your cweaver power budget to power deadeye the difference is much greater than to cvirt. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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