Weaver, great idea bad execution

[Tinker.6924]

I like playing core, tempest and catalyst but while I like the idea of a spec that encourages using all 4 elements, weaver comes up short for me in how it works.  It creates too many handicaps without any real benefit

My personal big issues:

• If I need a specific off hand (4 or 5) ability it can take up to 2 attunement changes to get to it.  For example, I need CC from lightning and I'm currently weaved to fire/earth, I first have to attune to Lightning then something else in order for the lightning abilities to shift to 4-5.  Best case that's 4 seconds away if I already triggered the Weave Self ability or 8 seconds if that ability is on CD.  It makes you think 2 steps ahead, but there's no real benefit to balance out that handicap which is unique to weaver.  
• The dual attacks aren't that great.  Most are ordinary damage skills and if you are losing original abilities have CC (especially with Breaker Bar dmg) or Heal there's no real benefit.  Either move the dual attack to its own professional ability keybind (shift-5) and leave the original 3 abilities alone (which would feel too much like Catalyst) or redesign the dual attacks to be better than both of the original abilities combined, especially including Heal and/or CC's when the original had those.
• Why does weaver have any abilities or traits that encourage staying in a single element?  Seems completely contrary to the spec's philosophy. 
• The Weave Self ability has a way too long CD and the Tailored Victory is so  meh why even waste a button push on it? Weave Self should have an attunement-based CD reduction, for example every time you change your attunement in combat you reduce it's cd by 5 seconds.  Hitting Tailored Victory should also provide a Weave Self CD-reduction based on the number of in combat attunements switches you did in Weave Self with double benefit if you obtained perfect weave.  Either that or Tailored Victory should enter you into a "Super Elemental" form and only be available if you hit perfect weave.

I think I could live with the current dual attacks and difficulty getting to specific 4/5 abilities if I had 50% uptime on Weave Self in combat.  

[Wyrdern.4092]

Unravel basically solves all the of attunement issues with weaver and can allow for some interesting combos but unfortunately you have to sacrifice a utility slot to take it. Idk if it would be to OP if it was made to be a F5 skill though ...

[Tinker.6924]

Unravel doesn't really solve the attunement issues I was thinking of because you're still 2 button pushes  away from the desired off hand abilities (unravel + desired attunement) and it wastes a utility slot.  But having that as a baseline profession ability would help the weaver spec.  For example, where jade sphere is for Catalyst there would be unravel, and/or a profession button for swapping the  mh/oh attunements (for example, mh is lightning and off hand earth, hit shift-6 and swap them to make mh earth and off hand lightning).  

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Unravel on utility skill or F5 would still give you 2 buttons to push !?

Unravel is too underrated; you're not only getting core #3 and offhand skills (which is already huge) but also free instant attunement swap too, and so more core #3 and #4-#5 and all traits on attunement swap (arcane traitlane, water healing, elements of rage etc.) This is deep to counter chill, to go full heal and cleanse really quickly as you can attune twice in water in a short period of time, to counter "burst cc" with shocking aura, or contrary to cc and chain with dragonstorm+ ring of fire/fire grab + elements of rage ...

The skill is clearly "high ceiling", you need good knowledge of your skills and CD, some muscular reflex, some APM but the more you learn to play with it, the less you can live without.
Just get the "single attune" on F5 or "reverse" the 2 attunements, with the loss of the CD reduction (and the core #3?) would just result as a nerf, and I doubt players who already don't play unravel would use F5 just to earn 1~2sec.

Edited February 12 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[draxynnic.3719]

One irony here is that from a PvE perspective at least, Weaver typically doesn't encourage using all the elements. There is Weave Self if you're using it, and hammer wants you to use all four, but on most weapons optimal performance is often achieved by spending most of your time switching back and forth between two elements. It even comes closest, short of Fresh Air builds, to catering to a single-element playstyle, since you can adopt a rotation that never completely leaves the element you specialise in.

[Jski.6180]

Combing elements is a realty good ideal if the skills do more then just what already existing skills do the lower cd on swaps and the 1/2 swaps was not a good ideal.

Weaver duel skills should be a bit harder to use but should have much more added effects that ele normally cant get and weaver should not have faster atument swaps as well as they should not be 1/2. Think of duel skills as if they are the last hit of combos hits and when you use them they should all have massive effects both dmg and condi as well as other effects that you dont normally see on ele boon stirp condi types and even counter stealth.

Maybe an F5 that lets you swap your weaveing atument but dose not effect your core atument swap. The duel skill it self would be a skill an f6 skill. The atument swap would be normal speed and the F5 weave swap would be 4 sec. The f6 would also be an 4 sec cd after use but the dule skill it self would have its own cd.

[AliamRationem.5172]

39 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Combing elements is a realty good ideal if the skills do more then just what already existing skills do the lower cd on swaps and the 1/2 swaps was not a good ideal.

Weaver duel skills should be a bit harder to use but should have much more added effects that ele normally cant get and weaver should not have faster atument swaps as well as they should not be 1/2. Think of duel skills as if they are the last hit of combos hits and when you use them they should all have massive effects both dmg and condi as well as other effects that you dont normally see on ele boon stirp condi types and even counter stealth.

Maybe an F5 that lets you swap your weaveing atument but dose not effect your core atument swap. The duel skill it self would be a skill an f6 skill. The atument swap would be normal speed and the F5 weave swap would be 4 sec. The f6 would also be an 4 sec cd after use but the dule skill it self would have its own cd.

I love the way weaver works.  What I don't love about it is that it isn't rewarded for the trade.  Yes, you get extra skills, but the opportunity cost remains and the penalty of being unable to access any of your skills within a single swap isn't justified.  No other class is limited in this way.

But at this point I think rather than redesigning the class unravel as an f5 is a suitable solution.

[Sweetbread.3678]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I love the way weaver works.  What I don't love about it is that it isn't rewarded for the trade.  Yes, you get extra skills, but the opportunity cost remains and the penalty of being unable to access any of your skills within a single swap isn't justified.  No other class is limited in this way.

Like most "problems" with Ele, it's not that Ele is poorly designed, it's that Ele's the only class that actually adheres to good game design principles. Weaver's whole playstyle that rewards you for planning ahead is actually pretty well made, but it's stuck in this schizophrenic balance ecosystem that doesn't reward it at all, because other classes are operating under a completely different balance philosophy. Like a Mesmer can do almost 3 times a Weaver's break damage with 0 planning, no disruption to their rotation, and almost no opportunity cost, while the Weaver has to disrupt their entire rotation for 4+ seconds, use twice as many skills, and even cancel the elite that they're super reliant on for damage (that also requires 6 seconds of setup beforehand) early to get anywhere even close to that. It is completely absurd that something like Magic Bullet does 200 more break damage than Tailored Victory.

Pretty much everything is like this. Just look at Quick and Alac for Ele. Cata has to sacrifice 2 traits, invest heavily into Concentration, and consistently nail a complex rotation to upkeep Quickness, meanwhile Herald's over here just passively vomiting it out 24/7, with 1 trait, 0 stat investment, and nothing to really manage besides legend swapping on cooldown. Same with Alac; Ele has to consistently get an interruptable 4 second channel off to be able to apply it in a 240 radius, while Mech just constantly passively applies it in a 360 radius from an autocasting ai pet. These things are designed in completely different universes.

They need to pick a consistent design philosophy at some point. I really hope it's "apply a consistent power budget and opportunity cost to all classes" and not "power creep/dumb down Ele into a complete faceroll", but I'm not holding my breath.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Like most "problems" with Ele, it's not that Ele is poorly designed, it's that Ele's the only class that actually adheres to good game design principles. Weaver's whole playstyle that rewards you for planning ahead is actually pretty well made, but it's stuck in this schizophrenic balance ecosystem that doesn't reward it at all, because other classes are operating under a completely different balance philosophy. Like a Mesmer can do almost 3 times a Weaver's break damage with 0 planning, no disruption to their rotation, and almost no opportunity cost, while the Weaver has to disrupt their entire rotation for 4+ seconds, use twice as many skills, and even cancel the elite that they're super reliant on for damage (that also requires 6 seconds of setup beforehand) early to get anywhere even close to that. It is completely absurd that something like Magic Bullet does 200 more break damage than Tailored Victory.

Pretty much everything is like this. Just look at Quick and Alac for Ele. Cata has to sacrifice 2 traits, invest heavily into Concentration, and consistently nail a complex rotation to upkeep Quickness, meanwhile Herald's over here just passively vomiting it out 24/7, with 1 trait, 0 stat investment, and nothing to really manage besides legend swapping on cooldown. Same with Alac; Ele has to consistently get an interruptable 4 second channel off to be able to apply it in a 240 radius, while Mech just constantly passively applies it in a 360 radius from an autocasting ai pet. These things are designed in completely different universes.

They need to pick a consistent design philosophy at some point. I really hope it's "apply a consistent power budget and opportunity cost to all classes" and not "power creep/dumb down Ele into a complete faceroll", but I'm not holding my breath.

Agree 100%.  Ele is following rules that don't seem to apply to other classes.

[Jski.6180]

23 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I love the way weaver works.  What I don't love about it is that it isn't rewarded for the trade.  Yes, you get extra skills, but the opportunity cost remains and the penalty of being unable to access any of your skills within a single swap isn't justified.  No other class is limited in this way.

But at this point I think rather than redesigning the class unravel as an f5 is a suitable solution.

If the rules is only wrong for one class then your only playing with an chosen disadvantage not with the "right balancing."

Anet removed draw backs to elite spec weaver still has an massive draw back with the 1/2 swaps. If the duel skills where an F5-F6 weaver would no longer have an draw back.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

If the rules is only wrong for one class then your only playing with an chosen disadvantage not with the "right balancing."

Anet removed draw backs to elite spec weaver still has an massive draw back with the 1/2 swaps. If the duel skills where an F5-F6 weaver would no longer have an draw back.

Suggest whatever you want.  I'd rather keep the feel of the spec with dual attunements and the 4 second swap.  But one tradeoff (being locked into the attunement for 4 seconds) is enough.  Giving us unravel on f5 would mostly resolve the issues with being unable to access skills as needed without turning weaver into core ele with 6 extra skills.

[KhiemIris.6097]

Would love to see swapping primary and secondary attunement be with no cooldown. Weaver is meant to have many spells to cast not restricted like the current weaver