My thoughts on pistols

[Titan.7853]

4 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

Off the top of my head, I can only give you a very rough ballpark.  I was really focusing on figuring out the mechanics.

I mostly tested with a hybrid damage build (Radiance, Virtues, Willbender), in Celestial Stats for WvW roaming (so not traited for maximum dps).  The dps was not that great, to be honest.  In the roughly the same build with Sword/Torch, I can get near 20k dps on a golem as a benchmark at melee range (with all the boons/buffs/conditions to golem).  With this build, I was getting maybe 16k with pistol/pistol at melee.  The Runes were different, which could account for some of the difference, and ArcDPS isn't working now, so I need to do further testing.  I tried some "normal encounters" on the golem, with no boons, buffs, or conditions applied and it scaled correspondingly.  In my "normal encounters" with the golem, I tried ranged only, and the dps dropped by 50%.  This could be because Willbender's Rushing Justice doesn't get triggered, and because you only have the 4 ranged pistol skills to use when they come off cooldown.

It's too early to tell exactly.  I need to do direct A/B testing with the exact same equipment stats/runes, but my feeling is that the pistols are less powerful at melee than Sword/Torch on Willbender.  At ranged, there is a dramatic decrease.  I feel they are underpowered, very much so at ranged distances.

Okay, I have an update.  I managed to squeeze out a substantial amount more dps with Runes of Balthazar (previously I had Firebrand equipped), Relic of the Fractal, and Superior Sigil of Agony on one pistol.  All the armor is celestial including one pistol, the other pistol is vipers.  That brings my condition duration to +62% bleed, +92% burn.  I also used what I learned before to better time my rotation as skills came off cooldown.  I dropped Phoenix Protocol, and took Tyrant's momentum for even more dps on the golem since I had all the boons on me and conditions on it, and I didn't need alacrity.  These changes raised my total dps on this hybrid build from approximately 16.5k to 20.7k on one test, and 20.8k on another.  Sigil of Celerity is on one ascended pistol and I don't want to remove it, but swapping it for Superior Sigil of Malice for another 10% condition duration would probably boost dps to around 22.5k, which would be better than Sword/Torch on a golem.

The issue again, and confirmed, is that when you don't engage Rushing Justice (Virtue 1) and damage the target with strike damage while it is in Symbol of Ignition to gain added burning, the ranged dps plummets.  For strike damage, I was using Whirling Light and Peacekeeper (Pistol #2).  By utilizing only pistols skills at a ranged distance, and igniting rounds from within Symbol of Ignition on to a target that is outside of the symbol, my dps dropped to 10.3k.  That's is almost precisely a 50% dps drop.  I've seen this 50% drop multiple times now, one time even worse.  I think that's where the underpowered feeling comes from.  When you actually use pistols competitively at a ranged distance, they lack any real punch, at least with this hybrid build.

Anyway, that's all.  I hope this helps.

Edited March 1 by Titan.7853

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Would be awesome if skill 3 was a dual attack.

Everything else seems fine.

[Sovarica.4368]

I'd rather have Radiant Fire pre-nerf back instead of pistols lol. But speaking of pistols they feel too tame maybe they need a burning relic that could give them a bit more of a punch to them. In any case I have seen my desire to play PvP go down a lot.

[draxynnic.3719]

20 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

No, these aren't "big problems," or entirely accurate.  I tested damage with the target both on symbol, and off symbol, in both power and condition builds tonight for over an hour on a golem.  It's difficult to say for sure without ArcDPS, I am just eyeing it, but I can tell you the following:

1) The symbol itself does strike damage, 5 pulses over 4 seconds. Of course, this only applies if your target stays within the symbol the entire duration.

2) Other strike damage seems unaffected by whether or not the target is within the symbol.  If you are seeing increased strike damage, it may be from the added might the symbol provides to you.  Give yourself 25 stacks of might when testing to normalize that effect.

3) To my eye the only apparent damage modifier is burn damage.  In repeated testing, I counted stacks of burning from projectiles (1, 4) and kept an eye our for the peak burn number, and it seems like there is a 10-15% increase in peak burn dps if the target is within the symbol.  Typically you would get one extra stack of peak burn for a single blip from auto attack.  These attacks apply a very shot burn duration, they spike and drop rapidly.  Pistol #4 appeared about the same.  When I stretched that out as far as possible with Balthazar Runes, I was able to get it to around a 20% increase in peak burn with the target within the symbol from pistol projectile strikes.  Strike and bleed damage seem unaffected, as you would expect by reading the description.

What was interesting to see was applying the symbol and immediately doing Whirling Light (4 x strike attack) with the target in the symbol.  You can really see burn damage increase from that (over 100%).  The same was true of other strike attacks, if you dropped the symbol, weapon swapped and did Executioner's Calling, you got some decent burning.  Pistol #2 (5 x strike attack) increased burning by nearly 100% with the target inside the symbol, rather than out.  For some reason, pistol projectiles (1,4,5) don't seem to add much burning with the target in the symbol as mentioned, perhaps 10-15%.  I am speculating that is because I am so close to the target I am getting an extra shot in.  Pistol projectiles do not show an "ignite" effect of the symbol (flames at your feet) when you strike a target within it, but strike attacks do.  You can most clearly see this effect with pistol #2, which apparently counts as a strike attack.  Pistol projectile do, however, show an ignite animation as they leave the symbol (which is beautiful).

I am almost certain that all the burn damage that you get from pistol projectiles is from the incendiary effect, and it doesn't matter whether the target is inside the symbol or not.  If the target is in the symbol, strike damage "ignites" the symbol, providing your melee attacks with burning as well (including pistol #2).  It is really starting to make sense now why the symbol is placed beneath you.

------------

Symbol of Ignition: Create a symbol that ignites when you strike an enemy inside it or shoot a projectile into it, damaging and burning enemies inside it. If the symbol is ignited by a projectile, it enchants that projectile to burn its target.

 Damage (5x): 735 (2.0), Burning (2s): 262 Damage, Number of Targets: 5,  Minimum Time between Ignitions: ¼ seconds, Duration: 4 seconds, Radius: 180, Combo Field: Light

-------------

Anyway, I can tell by reading your post that you are concerned about boss fights in PvE, not competitive gameplay.  If you are fighting a boss with a stationary mechanic, and your squad isn't stacked, then dropping the symbol at range might be better in that niche circumstance.  You'll get your (5x 735) damage and that little extra burn from pistol #2 while you avoid mechanics.  Aside from that, I can assure you after thousands of matches of PvP and hundreds of hours in WvW, that nobody wittingly stands within a symbol that is damaging them, except maybe a Zerg with dedicated support.  Not even all NPCs do that.

I suggest you go into some competitive gameplay, and laydown down Longbow #4 (Symbol of Energy) on your targets at range before engaging them.  See how long they stay in your symbol, and if they don't, try to shoot them through it.  Let us know how that works out for you.

You say I'm wrong, but then you demonstrate that I'm right. The symbol does damage. You get extra damage when shooting at a target within the symbol, even with non-projectile attacks like Pistol 2, in the form of burning stacks. I never specified that the damage I was talking about had to be strike damage.

As for your condescending 'you're thinking about PvE'... oh, please. I've done my time in sPvP, although I'm taking a break from it now. People won't stand on a damaging field without good reason, it's true. But if your damaging field pushes an enemy off a contested point, you win anyway. Meanwhile, people generally won't let you just stand in a static position and shoot either. They'll drop their own fields on you, CC you out of it, or just pressure you enough that you need to kite... or, alternatively, they'll LOS you. Ground targeting means you can place it where you want it, but if I had to choose, I'd want it placed at the enemy instead of my own feet in every mode. I'm sure you could come up with some scenarios where placing it at your feet is better, but I'm pretty sure I could come up with more where being able to place it on the enemy while staying at range is better, even if we just restrict things to competitive modes.

[Titan.7853]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:23 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Finally... dude, if you don't like ground-targeting, guardian isn't as bad as engineer but it probably still isn't for you. Every elite spec has a ground target in its mechanic. Every other ranged weapon has at least one ground target. Several important utilities are ground targeted. Avoiding taking half a second to place a circle is NOT worth kneecapping the entire set.

You have nerve to call me condescending, when you started out this conversation by telling me that Guardian probably isn't for me, in a thread in the Guardian forum.  I have over 4000 hours in game, with over half of that time on my main, Guardian.  I decided not to be a schmuck and derail the thread, so I let it ride.  Now here you are, at it again, calling me condescending.  I've leave it to you whether or not you want to continue to drag this thread down. 

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ground targeting means you can place it where you want it, but if I had to choose, I'd want it placed at the enemy instead of my own feet in every mode ... even if we just restrict things to competitive modes.

Brilliant.  It's obvious we're never going to agree on this matter.

For everyone else reading, I would make the following points:

If there is a significant increase in burning caused by strike damage while the target is within the symbol, then where are you in relation to the enemy when you are delivering strike damage?  Why wouldn't you want the symbol cast beneath you in that scenario?

If projectiles are ignited by the symbol at ranged targets, and you can control whether or not you stay in the symbol for your burst, then why wouldn't you want the symbol cast beneath you in that scenario?  Would it be better to cast it on your enemy and hope they stay in the symbol?

Is it worth giving up the immediacy of having the symbol automatically placed beneath you, for the far slower and less intuitive manual placement of the symbol with your mouse every time?  I can't find an option in the settings for "Snap Ground Target"  for one's self, only for enemy targets, and even then "Snap Ground Target" doesn't anticipate enemy movement.

I think the answer is clearly no.

Edited March 2 by Titan.7853

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

If there is a significant increase in burning caused by strike damage while the target is within the symbol, then where are you in relation to the enemy when you are delivering strike damage?  Why wouldn't you want the symbol cast beneath you in that scenario?

I don't think the answer is clear simply because of this statement right here. My answer is: Because guardians have enough melee options already. I want a RANGED condi option to go along with my choice of OH weapon! If I can't use my MH pistol effectively at range, I have zero use for it. The symbol is pointless for me while under my feet if I'm trying to stay away from my target. If I'm not trying to kite, I'm going to axe/sword their kitten like a proper melee guardian. Anything that's better in melee range on a weapon called pistol, rifle, or bow (that isn't a knockback or daze so I can get away), doesn't belong on my skill bar. 

Your other points are not ignored and are valid, but simply not relevant unless you are using a suitable projectile weapon with MH pistol, which as you said yourself doesn't exist. You reported that even when using the projectiles you get a significant drop in performance outside melee range. On a ranged weapon.

That said, my preferred fix for this is to add burning to your skill while you are standing in the symbol instead of your target, but barring that or another suitable fix for ranged damage, I can see many cases where ground targeting is preferable to what we have now. At least then I have a fighting change to use the weapon at range effectively in groups or in PVE. Did I mention pistols are generally designed to be ranged weapons?

[Titan.7853]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I don't think the answer is clear simply because of this statement right here. My answer is: Because guardians have enough melee options already. I want a RANGED condi option to go along with my choice of OH weapon! If I can't use my MH pistol effectively at range, I have zero use for it. The symbol is pointless for me while under my feet if I'm trying to stay away from my target. If I'm not trying to kite, I'm going to axe/sword their kitten like a proper melee guardian. Anything that's better in melee range on a weapon called pistol, rifle, or bow (that isn't a knockback or daze so I can get away), doesn't belong on my skill bar. 

Your other points are not ignored and are valid, but simply not relevant unless you are using a suitable projectile weapon with MH pistol, which as you said yourself doesn't exist. You reported that even when using the projectiles you get a significant drop in performance outside melee range. On a ranged weapon.

That said, my preferred fix for this is to add burning to your skill while you are standing in the symbol instead of your target, but barring that or another suitable fix for ranged damage, I can see many cases where ground targeting is preferable to what we have now. At least then I have a fighting change to use the weapon at range effectively in groups or in PVE. Did I mention pistols are generally designed to be ranged weapons?

Oh I think we are in complete agreement here.  A range weapon should be viable at range, not have the dps fully reduced by half when your target is not within the180 radius of your symbol.  Just think about that for a moment.  There are melee weapons with a greater range than that.  Even Whirling Light has a range of 240.

What is the source of the problem from a technical point of view?  The problem appears to be giving strike damage stacks of burning for targets within the symbol.  That's the problem.  Projectiles already behave according to your preferred solution.  So what's the fix?  As you said, remove the "ignition" of the symbol for targets struck inside (so no burning on strike damage), and correspondingly give added stacks of burning to the pistol projectile skills that become incendiary from passing through the symbol (pistol #1, 4).  That way there is uniform damage characteristics for the pistol weapons regardless of range, from 0-900.  Pistol #2 can have it's stacks of burning increased as well, since it is not considered a projectile.

If you think about it, Willbender already has Rushing Justice, which is a melee range strike that already gives attacks added burning, including projectiles.  There was no need to add a 2nd Rushing Justice to the pistol symbol.  Doing so has rendered the pistols ineffective as a weapons outside of 180 range, because projectile burn damage has to be dramatically lowered to balance for in symbol burn damage from strikes.  That completely defeats the purpose of having a ranged weapon in the first place.  Also, Rushing Justice isn't limited to the 180 radius of a symbol, you can strike your target, move and trigger it from 900 range with your pistol for the entire duration.  Nor does Rushing Justice require your target to remain stationary.

To reiterate, the solution couldn't be more simple, really.  Remove in symbol strike burning from Symbol of Ignition, and correspondingly buff burning from incendiary rounds on pistol #1, 4, and add extra burning to pistol #2, until balanced.

To the Devs, please make these changes to our pistols.  They are so much fun, but aren't functioning as a ranged weapon should.  Making these changes would result in uniform pistol behavior, and result in a ranged weapon set that actually performs well at range.  Thank you!

Edited March 2 by Titan.7853

[Titan.7853]

I have also thought of a solution for the symbol placement.

Hit the escape key, go to "options," then "control options."  Under targeting, there are options for "Snap Ground Target" and "Toggle Snap Ground Target."  I use both of those, but they only target enemies, not your own character.  If we could get two new options, called "Snap Player Character" and "Toggle Snap Player Character," then I would be okay if the symbol were to become a ranged target.  I would need both options, as I use both, and they would have to instantly snap the green target field under your own character.

It is less than ideal for me, because as it is, every time you respawn the setting reverts and you have to re-Toggle through your hot key.  Change maps, re-Toggle again.  It would also require a second key press to activate Symbol of Ignition, so 3, 3 instead of just 3.  But I think it's an acceptable compromise to make if more people are pleased to use the weapon set.

Edited March 2 by Titan.7853

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I think the takeaway here is that there is no clear fix for everyone. Your solution appears to work for P/P but makes the skill absolutely worthless without /P or a quick switch to LB, so it's clearly not the answer for me. I like my solution, because it can be used with any weapon at any range. PVE people will prefer ground target, or spawn at target, because the symbol also does its own direct damage, which they can leverage on foes that aren't very mobile. Others may have other soultions.

 

[Titan.7853]

1 minute ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I think the takeaway here is that there is no clear fix for everyone. Your solution appears to work for P/P but makes the skill absolutely worthless without /P or a quick switch to LB, so it's clearly not the answer for me. I like my solution, because it can be used with any weapon at any range. PVE people will prefer ground target, or spawn at target, because the symbol also does its own direct damage, which they can leverage on foes that aren't very mobile. Others may have other soultions.

 

I am not following you here.  This solution would work for everyone.  You would still benefit from it on your main hand pistol.  The symbol would still ignite pistol projectiles, and provide might.  Auto attack would have enhanced burning, and pistol #2 would get buffed.  Pistol skills #1, 2 and 4 would have to be dialed up to match the 50% loss in dps from burn on strike within the symbol, resulting in good uniform dps from 0-900 range.  

We are trying to balance pistols here, not an unnecessary burn on strike buff for every other weapon or utility skill that provides strike damage.  That is what has caused the problem in the first place, and that is what must be changed.  You can't have it both ways.  It's impossible to balance that way.  Your LB skills and damage will remain the same as before, only both pistols will now function properly.

And there is a solution for the symbol placement, as I described in my last post.  It can be changed to ground targetable, so long as there is a "Snap to Player Character" and "Toggle Snap to Player Character" option in the settings.  Then everyone can play as they wish.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

I am not following you here.  This solution would work for everyone.  You would still benefit from it on your main hand pistol.  The symbol would still ignite pistol projectiles, and provide might.  Auto attack would have enhanced burning, and pistol #2 would get buffed.  Pistol skills #1, 2 and 4 would have to be dialed up to match the 50% loss in dps from burn on strike within the symbol, resulting in good uniform dps from 0-900 range.  

We are trying to balance pistols here, not an unnecessary burn on strike buff for every other weapon or utility skill that provides strike damage.  That is what has caused the problem in the first place, and that is what must be changed.  You can't have it both ways.  It's impossible to balance that way.  Your LB skills and damage will remain the same as before, only both pistols will now function properly.

And there is a solution for the symbol placement, as I described in my last post.  It can be changed to ground targetable, so long as there is a "Snap to Player Character" and "Toggle Snap to Player Character" option in the settings.  Then everyone can play as they wish.

Maybe I'm not understanding the full effect of your suggestion. I can see how it works for p/p, but since pistols are one hand weapons, you can obviously pair them with other weapon options.

Maybe you can help me understand better. With your solution, what would the symbol provide when pairing the main hand pistol with any other weapon? From what I can see, it would only be a minor amount of direct damage from its normal pulses in a tiny radius right at your feet. If so, I would never use that skill and it would be absolutely useless on my bar. I don't care if it buffs other weapons or not, but it has to have a use. Anything at all. Again these are ranged weapons. 

[Titan.7853]

27 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Maybe I'm not understanding the full effect of your suggestion. I can see how it works for p/p, but since pistols are one hand weapons, you can obviously pair them with other weapon options.

Maybe you can help me understand better. With your solution, what would the symbol provide when pairing the main hand pistol with any other weapon? From what I can see, it would only be a minor amount of direct damage from its normal pulses in a tiny radius right at your feet. If so, I would never use that skill and it would be absolutely useless on my bar. I don't care if it buffs other weapons or not, but it has to have a use. Anything at all. Again these are ranged weapons. 

The symbol would still damage as you mentioned, provide 5 stacks of might for 7 seconds, and ignite pistol projectiles, causing burning.  Auto attack from main hand pistol is a projectile, so auto attack will stack burning from being fired through the symbol, not just bleed as it does without the symbol.  Also, in my solution pistol #2 would get a burn increase.  All pistol skills that burn would be buffed to match current dps.

You use Scepter now, don't you?  Symbol of Punishment on Scepter does damage, and gives might, but doesn't ignite your projectiles causing burning.

Edited March 2 by Titan.7853

[Gaiawolf.8261]

25 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

The symbol would still damage as you mentioned, provide 5 stacks of might for 7 seconds, and ignite pistol projectiles, causing burning.  Auto attack from main hand pistol is a projectile, so auto attack will stack burning from being fired through the symbol, not just bleed as it does without the symbol.  Also, in my solution pistol #2 would also get a burn increase.  All pistol skills that burn would be buffed to match current dps.

You use Scepter now, don't you?  Symbol of Punishment on Scepter does damage, and gives might, but doesn't ignite your projectiles causing burning.

Okay so if the buff to #2 comes from an interaction with the symbol, I'm on board, because that gives me a reason to press #3. If it's just a straight buff to #2, I still don't see a reason to cast the symbol. Some might (damage is gonna miss because my targets are out of range) isn't going to be enough. Now if skill #1 got extra burn stacks from the symbol to make the symbol worth it, I'm back on board.

Symbol of Punishment works because it can do a good chunk of AoE damage and buff anywhere within 900 inches away, not just at my feet. 

[Titan.7853]

3

41 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Okay so if the buff to #2 comes from an interaction with the symbol, I'm on board, because that gives me a reason to press #3. If it's just a straight buff to #2, I still don't see a reason to cast the symbol. Some might (damage is gonna miss because my targets are out of range) isn't going to be enough. Now if skill #1 got extra burn stacks from the symbol to make the symbol worth it, I'm back on board.

Symbol of Punishment works because it can do a good chunk of AoE damage and buff anywhere within 900 inches away, not just at my feet. 

Welcome aboard!

One of the best animations in game is on our shiny new pistol set. It really is so good, but it's kind of hard to see the full effect with the camera behind your character, and especially in combat from behind.  Out of combat, it doesn't show very well.  I suggest that everyone goes to the Lion's Arch Aerodome to Special Forces Training area and look at it on a golem.  You can rotate your camera to the side that way, pop an Adrenal Mushroom with the 'T" key and lay down Symbol of Ignition over and over again without waiting.

The blue projectiles turn into a gorgeous fiery orange when they become incendiary as they pass through the symbol.  Then they apply burning to the target.  That's how you know what what is considered a projectile, and what gets added burning applied.  Presently pistol 1,4, and 5 turn incendiary and apply burning after passing through the symbol.  Pistol #2 is a blue beam of searing light that generates it's own burning and is not affected by the symbol.  Pistol #2 is considered strike damage, and does not change color from the symbol.

If the devs wanted to change pistol #2 to be considered a projectile, and become incendiary for additional burning, I am sure they could make that change.  Or they could leave it as is, and just give it extra burning on it's own.  I suspect they made it strike damage so that at least one pistol skill would trigger burn on strike damage to a target within the symbol (the problem we are currently discussing).  One of the bonuses of it being strike damage and not a projectile, is that it penetrates Magnetic Aura.  I believe that may apply to other projectile reflects as well, but I am not sure.

Edited March 2 by Titan.7853

[Saiyan.1704]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:23 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

There are several big problems with the 'foot targeting is better' argument:

The most important is that shooting out of the symbol only works for the skills that are projectiles. That's pretty much limited to skills 1 and 4 on pistols - and if you're relying on skill 4 to make it worthwhile, that's forcing you to always use them as a pair.

A big part of the power budget relies on the target, not you, being in the symbol. The symbol does damage directly. The symbol causes other attacks to do more damage if the target is within the symbol. This applies even to the projectile attacks you're considering: firing skill 4 at a target in the symbol will achieve more than standing in the symbol and firing skill 4 at a target outside the symbol.

Third, you're considering situations where the target might move, but not situations where YOU might have to. In most boss fights, placing the symbol under the target is a safer bet than trying to stay in it yourself while avoiding attacks and mechanics. In competitive, placing a symbol on an objective being contested is still a safer bet than trying to stay within the symbol yourself. 

Speaking purely in a pvp POV.

Most of the time you'll want to cast P3 under you, even if you're engaging some one who is on a sidenode and wanting to do a little bit of range dps before commiting to melee. Symbols, whether it be scepter, sword, etc are easy to walk out of. If they walk out of P3, you lose burn damages from mainhand and offhand pistols. You're not going to push a single person off of point given the small radius of our symbols. With the exception of scepter at times, a single symbol doesn't do enough damage to push anyone off node.

I do understand why you would want the option to land P3 where ever you'd like (I'd like that option with Sword2's symbol too ngl) but it's not an absolute necessity in regards to PvP, especially when a ranged scepter#2 (the orbs that rain down) doesnt even proc P3.

I feel the devs P3 foot placement design was mandatory in terms of balances.

All of this is a different story in PvE... you made a valid point that you have to rotate around when fighting a boss so there'll be many cases where you'll want P3 to be on the boss 100% of the time as you move around.

The best course of action would probably be to simply buff P3's projectile burn damages in PvE while keeping the condi damage modifier in pvp the same.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

32 minutes ago, Titan.7853 said:

3

Welcome aboard!

One of the best animations in game is on our shiny new pistol set. It really is so good, but it's kind of hard to see the full effect with the camera behind your character, and especially in combat from behind.  Out of combat, it doesn't show very well.  I suggest that everyone goes to the Lion's Arch Aerodome to Special Forces Training area and look at it on a golem.  You can rotate your camera to the side that way, pop an Adrenal Mushroom with the 'T" key and lay down Symbol of Ignition over and over again without waiting.

The blue projectiles turn into a gorgeous fiery orange when they become incendiary as they pass through the symbol.  Then they apply burning to the target.  That's how you know what what is considered a projectile, and what gets added burning applied.  Presently pistol 1,4, and 5 turn incendiary and apply burning after passing through the symbol.  Pistol #2 is a blue beam of searing light that generates it's own burning and is not affected by the symbol.  Pistol #2 is considered strike damage, and does not change color from the symbol.

If the devs wanted to change pistol #2 to be considered a projectile, and become incendiary for additional burning, I am sure they could make that change.  Or they could leave it as is, and just give it extra burning on it's own.  I suspect they made it strike damage so that at least one pistol skill would trigger burn on strike damage to a target within the symbol (the problem we are currently discussing).  One of the bonuses of it being strike damage and not a projectile, is that it penetrates Magnetic Aura.

 

I agree the concept and animations for the weapons are on point, and in general they are much better off than some other professions right now. I'm happy as long as I have a fun, ranged option for condi/hybrid.

It just really rubs me the wrong way when something like a pistol can't be used effectively at range on a profession that is already overwhelmingly melee focused, or when a one-handed weapon is only designed to be used with a single other one-handed weapon. The whole point of one-hand weapons is so that you can mix and match. 

I still think I prefer the symbol adding burns to other skills as long as the guardian is in the symbol, because that's a fun, new interaction, but it needs to be effective at range with the options available. It think it's a fair trade. That's a mobility limit. It would be harder to balance than your solution, but no harder than the fiasco we have now with discrepancies between projectiles passing thru versus targets in the symbol versus guardian in the symbol versus none of the above. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 3/1/2024 at 3:41 AM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Ouch. This is starting to confirm my fears. I play celestial FB in WVW with LB and scepter. I switch between shield and focus depending on group vs roaming solo. I was hoping I could fit MH pistol in there and be able to keep both the shield and focus, so I wouldn't have to switch out anymore.

Hmm, the lack of arcdps does really suck because it's hard to say I'm actually doing stuff.

I do pistol/sword, scepter/shield, though I see nothing wrong with replacing either set with a longbow, or doing scepter/focus or scepter/torch. I only do shield because I take that trait. And longbow would be better the more people are involved. The bleed from auto is a slightly useful cover condi for the actual burns.

I like offhand sword on Firebrand because it has no other mobility otherwise so I think p/s is flexible. The only other mobility choice is greatsword and that takes up too many slots. On a side note, I also had some fun with axe/sword, because axe is too clunky  clunky to hit any skills on its own.

(Also being cele, the immob is like, 1/2 second longer) Or maybe I'm just lost and thought I was on Willbender. I also run speed relic though so almost nobody expects that from FB lol. Like people just think I'm lost heading towards the zerg.

 

Edited March 2 by ArchonWing.9480

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Hmm, the lack of arcdps does really suck because it's hard to say I'm actually doing stuff.

I do pistol/sword, scepter/shield, though I see nothing wrong with replacing either set with a longbow, or doing scepter/focus or scepter/torch. I only do shield because I take that trait. And longbow would be better the more people are involved. The bleed from auto is a slightly useful cover condi for the actual burns.

I like offhand sword on Firebrand because it has no other mobility otherwise so I think p/s is flexible. The only other mobility choice is greatsword and that takes up too many slots. On a side note, I also had some fun with axe/sword, because axe is too clunky  clunky to hit any skills on its own.

(Also being cele, the immob is like, 1/2 second longer) Or maybe I'm just lost and thought I was on Willbender. I also run speed relic though so almost nobody expects that from FB lol. Like people just think I'm lost heading towards the zerg.

 

I tested on the golem during beta but arcdps is surely better for content.

I also use scepter/sword from time to time and like the mobility it gives, but I rely more on the speed relic, Judge's Intervention, stab, resistance, and reflects. I might not be the fastest, but fast enough and hard to stop. LOL

At this point, I'm not sure either pistol will offer enough to earn a spot on my bar. Need more testing.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I tested on the golem during beta but arcdps is surely better for content.

I also use scepter/sword from time to time and like the mobility it gives, but I rely more on the speed relic, Judge's Intervention, stab, resistance, and reflects. I might not be the fastest, but fast enough and hard to stop. LOL

At this point, I'm not sure either pistol will offer enough to earn a spot on my bar. Need more testing.

Well the problem is WvW has different values and the golem in Armistrice bastion is useless. It's just kinda crazy how hard is it to get feedback. 🤣

Looks like a pretty fun build you have there, but yea I don't think pistol will be a primary weapon for you. Maybe if you run into a lot of runners that day.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

You have nerve to call me condescending, when you started out this conversation by telling me that Guardian probably isn't for me, in a thread in the Guardian forum.  I have over 4000 hours in game, with over half of that time on my main, Guardian.  I decided not to be a schmuck and derail the thread, so I let it ride.  Now here you are, at it again, calling me condescending.  I've leave it to you whether or not you want to continue to drag this thread down. 

Largely because after the beta weekend, I had a long argument on the same topic with someone I knew was a warrior main, and their argument really did boil down to 'I'm too lazy to use ground targeting'. I'll concede that faster skill activation is a valid consideration, although I still think targeting on the enemy is better overall (as will be discussed below). 

However, I had used competitive examples in explaining why I thought targeting the enemy is better, even though I focused on PvE examples because they were more clear-cut, and yet you still chose to assume I was a PvE-only player who just didn't understand how competitive works.

18 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

Brilliant.  It's obvious we're never going to agree on this matter.

For everyone else reading, I would make the following points:

If there is a significant increase in burning caused by strike damage while the target is within the symbol, then where are you in relation to the enemy when you are delivering strike damage?  Why wouldn't you want the symbol cast beneath you in that scenario?

Strike damage is not the same as melee damage. If the enemy is within the symbol and you're not, you're supposed to still be getting the benefit. As things currently stand, that's hard to pull off, since it requires getting in, dropping the symbol, backing off, and attacking again before the symbol expires, on a weaponset that doesn't have a gap opener skill and a profession that has very few of them. Now, if you're treating pistols as a weaponswap in a melee rotation, it doesn't matter whether the symbol targets you or the enemy - it will cover both of you anyway. But if I'm looking to shoot a target at, say, 750 range? I'd absolutely prefer that the symbol is on the target.

18 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

If projectiles are ignited by the symbol at ranged targets, and you can control whether or not you stay in the symbol for your burst, then why wouldn't you want the symbol cast beneath you in that scenario?  Would it be better to cast it on your enemy and hope they stay in the symbol?

In a competitive environment, as I said before, it's just as possible for the enemy to push you off your symbol when they see you use it, either directly through a forced movement CC, or indirectly through pressuring you and forcing you to move (including placing their own area fields on top of your symbol). Meanwhile, actions of your allies might prevent your target from being able to easily move out of it. There's also the previously mentioned potential of placing it on a strategic position and forcing the enemy to choose between staying there and eating the damage, or forfeiting the position. This could be a capture point (even if it doesn't cover the entire point it's still a complication, unless it's a massive point like center on Foefire), a body, siege in WvW (or a Khylo treb) or any location of tactical significance such as high ground that someone is standing on to avoid being meleed. There's also many situations where even if neither of you are on the symbol, you're still shooting through it. Forest center is a great example, as it often ends up with one team on one side and the other on the opposite: if you plant a symbol there and the enemy backs off, you're still likely to be shooting through it, even if you have to move yourself. On the whole, while some timing might be needed to get the most out of it, I think it would be better for the symbol as currently designed to target the enemy rather than yourself.

18 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

Is it worth giving up the immediacy of having the symbol automatically placed beneath you, for the far slower and less intuitive manual placement of the symbol with your mouse every time?  I can't find an option in the settings for "Snap Ground Target"  for one's self, only for enemy targets, and even then "Snap Ground Target" doesn't anticipate enemy movement.

I think the answer is clearly no.

I've always found myself that the extra versatility of being able to place a persistent AoE is more valuable (although grenade and mortar autos are a bit much). Mind you, that might be in part because I'm on Australian ping, and thus I'm used to having to think a quarter-second ahead rather than immediate reactions. So for me, the answer is yes. It might be a little slower to place, but I can place it exactly where I think it will do the most good, and the followup will be just as fast.

I will note that the problem is essentially bound in having some of the power budget relying on the enemy being within the symbol. If this was removed - reducing the strike damage to only be a token and moving that damage elsewhere in the set, and have the burning trigger based on the guardian being in the symbol rather than the target as someone suggested earlier - this would also resolve the issue. It would make Zeal less attractive when using pistols, but I'm pretty sure any condi build is defaulting to Radiance/Virtues/Elitespec anyway.

Speaking of, I was thinking that your tests that had pistol rotations drop in effectiveness by 50% when not in melee might be a bit unfair, since from what I understood of your methodology, it was creating a bit of confusion over how much of the gap was due to the symbol, and how much was just guardian being mostly designed as a melee profession (eg Willbender F1 being a gap-closer and also an important contributor to condi DPS). So I tried my own experiment just testing pistol alone: not using any profession mechanics or utilities, and employing a simple rotation (skill 3 top priority, skill 4 top priority if a symbol is down and never used otherwise, skill 2 on cooldown if it doesn't conflict with the above). I used quickness and alacrity because it quickly became clear that skill 4 needed this to be used twice in one symbol, but no other boons beside a little bit of might that the rotation generated for itself.

The result was that the target being in the symbol resulted in about 10% greater DPS than shooting at the target from range. Which on many professions I'd probably shrug off as 'you should get a benefit from getting closer', but since guardian already has so many benefits from getting into melee range, it probably doesn't need the ranged options it DOES have penalising you even more for fighting at range.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Looks like a pretty fun build you have there, but yea I don't think pistol will be a primary weapon for you. Maybe if you run into a lot of runners that day.

I can see pistols being viable in small scale battles or roaming, much less so in larger GvG or ZvZ. Condition projectiles just have too many counters in large battles. First you have to beat all the projectile hate and then the cleanse spam.

15 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I will note that the problem is essentially bound in having some of the power budget relying on the enemy being within the symbol. If this was removed - reducing the strike damage to only be a token and moving that damage elsewhere in the set, and have the burning trigger based on the guardian being in the symbol rather than the target as someone suggested earlier - this would also resolve the issue. It would make Zeal less attractive when using pistols, but I'm pretty sure any condi build is defaulting to Radiance/Virtues/Elitespec anyway.

This is the way. (I'm not biased. Honest. 😅) I did think about the Zeal traits and don't have a good answer to that other than that there are other options for condi/hybrid builds. Which is true, but not ideal.

Quote

So I tried my own experiment just testing pistol alone: not using any profession mechanics or utilities, and employing a simple rotation (skill 3 top priority, skill 4 top priority if a symbol is down and never used otherwise, skill 2 on cooldown if it doesn't conflict with the above). I used quickness and alacrity because it quickly became clear that skill 4 needed this to be used twice in one symbol, but no other boons beside a little bit of might that the rotation generated for itself.

Of course you know this isn't how the devs are going to balance it. Once benchmarks go up, they will nerf adjust based on the total DPS that comes out of it, likely with an axe/t + p/p build while standing at/in the hitbox. I doubt they will seriously consider or care much about other scenarios. 🙄 But I hope they do.

[draxynnic.3719]

Out of curiosity, I decided to try pulling out my EoD legendary pistol skins and see if the fire effect was part of the pistol projectile, or something that happens on any projectile.

Turns out it's the latter. While I can see that from a side view the default projectiles have a pleasing blending effect between the fire effect and the blue streak, if you use Aurene's or Mordremoth's Argument (those are the only EoD pistol skins I have thus far), you can see the fire effect being picked up by the projectile even from behind, rather than it being mostly drowned out by the blue streak. Aurene's base projectile is fairly small so you pretty much JUST see the fire, but Mordremoth's inky streak sets up a great contrast between the projectile and the fire effect - unfortunately, Mordremoth pistols don't really fit the aesthetics for my guardians, but if anyone has a sylvari guardian, that's something to consider. I suspect Jormag's Argument will look particularly cool with the effect (pun not intended but I'll take it anyway), since it's basically a narrower blue streak that would allow the fire to be more visible around it, and if you don't want to stick to guardian blue, Kralkatorrik's Argument would probably set up a similar contrast as Mordremoth's.

Zhaitan and Primordus are probably too close in colour to the fire effect to work as well, and Soo-Won projectiles just look too much like you're firing a water pistol.

 

18 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Of course you know this isn't how the devs are going to balance it. Once benchmarks go up, they will nerf adjust based on the total DPS that comes out of it, likely with an axe/t + p/p build while standing at/in the hitbox. I doubt they will seriously consider or care much about other scenarios. 🙄 But I hope they do.

Oh, of course I do. Which is part of the reason I think it's important that the pistol have none of its damage budget relying on getting within 180 of the target - so that, as much as possible on a condition guardian chassis, it's not rendered a complete wet noodle when the ranged weapon set is used for, well, ranged combat.

[Titan.7853]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I suspect Jormag's Argument will look particularly cool with the effect (pun not intended but I'll take it anyway), since it's basically a narrower blue streak that would allow the fire to be more visible around it...

I've got Jormag's Argument and you are so right, it looks spectacular with the incendiary effect.

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which is part of the reason I think it's important that the pistol have none of its damage budget relying on getting within 180 of the target - so that, as much as possible on a condition guardian chassis, it's not rendered a complete wet noodle when the ranged weapon set is used for, well, ranged combat.

100%.

[Titan.7853]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Speaking of, I was thinking that your tests that had pistol rotations drop in effectiveness by 50% when not in melee might be a bit unfair, since from what I understood of your methodology, it was creating a bit of confusion over how much of the gap was due to the symbol, and how much was just guardian being mostly designed as a melee profession (eg Willbender F1 being a gap-closer and also an important contributor to condi DPS). So I tried my own experiment just testing pistol alone: not using any profession mechanics or utilities, and employing a simple rotation (skill 3 top priority, skill 4 top priority if a symbol is down and never used otherwise, skill 2 on cooldown if it doesn't conflict with the above). I used quickness and alacrity because it quickly became clear that skill 4 needed this to be used twice in one symbol, but no other boons beside a little bit of might that the rotation generated for itself.

The result was that the target being in the symbol resulted in about 10% greater DPS than shooting at the target from range. Which on many professions I'd probably shrug off as 'you should get a benefit from getting closer', but since guardian already has so many benefits from getting into melee range, it probably doesn't need the ranged options it DOES have penalising you even more for fighting at range.

I see your point here.

The first tests I did were trying to get the maximum out of the rotation the way it will be played, which included Rushing Justice.  That resulted in approximately a 50% reduction of dps when not having the target in the symbol (from 20k roughly to 10k on my build).  I decided to go retest without using Rushing Justice at all.  I did, however, decide to trigger burn on strike using Whirling Light.  My rationale for this is that the symbol grants burn on strike damage, so I'll not restrict myself to pistol #2, but typical utility skills, which includes Whirling Light.

The golem readouts were as follows with all the boons added to me, and all the conditions added to the golem, no food or utility buff.  I was running a Celestial Radiance/Virtues/Willbender build:

No Rushing Justice, burn on strike triggered with Pistol #2 and Whirling Light:

DPS: 12,287 
DPS: 12,345

No Rushing Justice, at range (target out of symbol):

DPS: 9,881
DPS: 9,868

Which results in approximately a 20% damage reduction.

Edited March 3 by Titan.7853

[Titan.7853]

I think we can conclude that the pistols were very effectively designed to trigger Rushing Justice.  Pistol #2 (Peacekeeper) strikes 5 times over 1.5 seconds, and Pistol #4 (Hail of Justice) strikes 5 times over 1.25 seconds.  From all of my tests, we can see that 30% of the total dps comes from triggering Rushing Justice off cooldown.  This means damage on either pistol will always be about 30% less powerful than if Rushing Justice were triggered first.  For balance reasons, this is seems to be unavoidable.

That leaves us with the remaining 20% dps loss at range, which was the result of not triggering burn on strike damage to targets in the symbol (with Pistol #2 and Whirling Light), and solely using pistol skills at range.  If we account for the lack of damage of Whirling Light itself at range, I'd say burn on strike from the symbol accounts for about 15% of the damage.  This can be changed. 

By eliminating burn on strike to targets within the symbol, we can correspondingly increase burn damage generated by the pistols to match the loss in dps.  A 15-20% increase in burn damage generated by the symbol to projectiles, and a 15-20% increase to burn damage on Pistol #2 would certainly make the pistols feel much better on ranged targets.  As an added benefit, we would no longer have to rely on the target staying within the 180 radius of our symbol.  That alone would be worth the change.

Suggested Changes:

Symbol of Ignition

Symbol. Create a symbol that ignites when you strike an enemy inside it or shoot a projectile into it, damaging and burning enemies inside it. If the symbol is ignited by a projectile, it enchants that projectile to burn its target.

 Damage (5x): 735 (2.0)
 Burning (2s): 262 Damage     Burning (2.4s) 314 Damage

Peacekeeper

Fire a beam of searing light that damages and burns all enemies in its path.

 Damage (5x): 460 (1.25)
5 Burning (2s): 1,310 Damage     5 Burning (2.4s) 1572 Damage

The burn duration could be tweaked as necessary, so that there was no resultant loss in total dps.  The pistols would simply perform better at ranges beyond 180.

Note: All these values were calculated without ArcDPS.  Once ArcDPS is up and running the figures can be dialed in precisely.

Edited March 3 by Titan.7853