My thoughts on pistols

[Gaiawolf.8261]

6 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

I think we can conclude that the pistols were very effectively designed to trigger Rushing Justice.  Pistol #2 (Peacekeeper) strikes 5 times over 1.5 seconds, and Pistol #4 (Hail of Justice) strikes 5 times over 1.25 seconds.  From all of my tests, we can see that 30% of the total dps comes from triggering Rushing Justice off cooldown.  This means damage on either pistol will always be about 30% less powerful than if Rushing Justice were triggered first.  For balance reasons, this is seems to be unavoidable.

That leaves us with the remaining 20% dps loss at range, which was the result of not triggering burn on strike damage to targets in the symbol (with Pistol #2 and Whirling Light), and solely using pistol skills at range.  If we account for the lack of damage of Whirling Light itself at range, I'd say burn on strike from the symbol accounts for about 15% of the damage.  This can be changed. 

By eliminating burn on strike to targets within the symbol, we can correspondingly increase burn damage generated by the pistols to match the loss in dps.  A 15-20% increase in burn damage generated by the symbol to projectiles, and a 15-20% increase to burn damage on Pistol #2 would certainly make the pistols feel much better on ranged targets.  As an added benefit, we would no longer have to rely on the target staying within the 180 radius of our symbol.  That alone would be worth the change.

Suggested Changes:

Symbol of Ignition

Symbol. Create a symbol that ignites when you strike an enemy inside it or shoot a projectile into it, damaging and burning enemies inside it. If the symbol is ignited by a projectile, it enchants that projectile to burn its target.

 Damage (5x): 735 (2.0)
 Burning (2s): 262 Damage     Burning (2.4s) 314 Damage

Peacekeeper

Fire a beam of searing light that damages and burns all enemies in its path.

 Damage (5x): 460 (1.25)
5 Burning (2s): 1,310 Damage     5 Burning (2.4s) 1572 Damage

The burn duration could be tweaked as necessary, so that there was no resultant loss in total dps.  The pistols would simply perform better at ranges beyond 180.

Note: All these values were calculated without ArcDPS.  Once ArcDPS is up and running the figures can be dialed in precisely.

I'd be okay with this under an additional suggested change:

Through the Heart

Receives 2 stacks of burning from Symbol of Ignition.

 

This would preserve the weapon's power budget when used with other OH weapons, giving a less optimal but still viable interaction besides Hail of Justice. Maybe a possible future trait that increases it to 3. Might need additional number tweaks.

Edit: I mean they could have gotten the same effect if they switched #2 and #4 (pre buff) slots, and then buffed Peacekeeper to compensate like so many players suggested in the feedback thread, but what do we know?  😄

Edited March 3 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Titan.7853]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I'd be okay with this under an additional suggested change:

Through the Heart

Receives 2 stacks of burning from Symbol of Ignition.

 

This would preserve the weapon's power budget when used with other OH weapons, giving a less optimal but still viable interaction besides Hail of Justice. Maybe a possible future trait that increases it to 3. Might need additional number tweaks.

Edit: I mean they could have gotten the same effect if they switched #2 and #4 (pre buff) slots, and then buffed Peacekeeper to compensate like so many players suggested in the feedback thread, but what do we know?  😄

I see your point Gaia, because offhand Pistol #4 (Hail of Justice) has two charges, whereas main hand Pistol #2 (Peacekeeper) only has one.

Right now it's not possible to fire off both charges of Pistol #4 and to give them both burning with Symbol of Ignition, because the Symbol Duration is only 4 seconds.  Oddly, when I give myself both quickness and alacrity, it should be possible, but the 2nd volley of Pistol #4 doesn't change to orange and the burning doesn't change on the golem - even though the symbol is still present for the 2nd volley.  It is either a bug, or designed with this limitation in mind.

I am at the golem right now, with all the boons on me, and Balthazar Runes to stretch out the burning: 

Firing Pistol #2 on my build, results in 5 total stacks of burning.  Peak burning is 2159.

Dropping Symbol of Ignition, and firing Pistol #4 for one volley and allowing auto attack to do burning results in 5 total stacks of burning.  Peak burning is 2159.

Interesting, huh?  This tells me that these pistols were designed to be relatively equal in power, and not to favor offhand pistol over main hand pistol.  I'll elaborate further.  On my build with quickness and alacrity, I get 15 stacks of bleeding from auto attack.  Pistol #4 can do two volleys for 5 stacks of bleeding per volley, with a 10 second regeneration time for each volley. 

Pistol #2 can generate 5 stacks of burning every 6 seconds, where as Pistol #4 can only generate an equivalent amount of burning once per Symbol of Ignition, which has a 12 second cooldown.  That's twice as much burning for Pistol #2, compared to Pistol #4.  Main hand pistol has the symbol, offhand pistol gets #5 Jurisdiction, which I mainly use as a knockback due to the charge time.  At level 1, that's two stacks of burning on Pistol #5 (for a longer duration), which helps make up for twice the burning that Pistol #2 generates.

These weapons appear to be fairly well balanced right now, and quite deliberately so.  I don't think it's necessary to place added burning to one pistol or another.

Edited March 3 by Titan.7853

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Titan.7853 said:

I see your point Gaia, because offhand Pistol #4 (Hail of Justice) has two charges, whereas main hand Pistol #2 (Peacekeeper) only has one.

Right now it's not possible to fire off both charges of Pistol #4 and to give them both burning with Symbol of Ignition, because the Symbol Duration is only 4 seconds.  Oddly, when I give myself both quickness and alacrity, it should be possible, but the 2nd volley of Pistol #4 doesn't change to orange and the burning doesn't change on the golem - even though the symbol is still present for the 2nd volley.  It is either a bug, or designed with this limitation in mind.

I am at the golem right now, with all the boons on me, and Balthazar Runes to stretch out the burning: 

Firing Pistol #2 on my build, results in 5 total stacks of burning.  Peak burning is 2159.

Dropping Symbol of Ignition, and firing Pistol #4 for one volley and allowing auto attack to do burning results in 5 total stacks of burning.  Peak burning is 2159.

Interesting, huh?  This tells me that these pistols were designed to be relatively equal in power, and not to favor offhand pistol over main hand pistol.  I'll elaborate further.  On my build with quickness and alacrity, I get 15 stacks of bleeding from auto attack.  Pistol #4 can do two volleys for 5 stacks of bleeding per volley, with a 10 second regeneration time for each volley. 

Pistol #2 can generate 5 stacks of burning every 6 seconds, where as Pistol #4 can only generate an equivalent amount of burning once per Symbol of Ignition, which has a 12 second cooldown.  That's twice as much burning for Pistol #2, compared to Pistol #4.  Main hand pistol has the symbol, offhand pistol gets #5 Jurisdiction, which I mainly use as a knockback due to the charge time.  At level 1, that's two stacks of burning on Pistol #5 (for a longer duration), which helps make up for twice the burning that Pistol #2 generates.

These weapons appear to be fairly well balanced right now, and quite deliberately so.  I don't think it's necessary to place added burning to one pistol or another.

I think you might misunderstand my motivation for adding extra burns to #1. It's not because I think MH is weaker than OH pistol and needs a buff. It's because without taking OH pistol, as guardian players may want to do, Symbol of Ignition wouldn't be worth touching outside of melee range. Adding double burns to #1 from the symbol is purely to make the symbol worth casting. Basically shifting some of the weapon's power budget to the projectile/symbol interaction. If they need to nerf #2 to account for that, fine. As long as the weapon has the same overall output and all skills on the bar have a valuable purpose.

This really wouldn't affect OH pistol anyway, since you can't use #1, #2 and #4 at the same time anyway. You still mostly have to pick which ones you use while the symbol is active. Quick/alac/Honor may affect the options that can be used, and I have not tested that yet.

Edited March 3 by Gaiawolf.8261

[draxynnic.3719]

We might need to be careful about proposing too many buffs to MH pistol. I've started to see pistol/pistol and pistol/torch builds, which given the problem of having both some of its own power budget and a lot of guardian's power budget assuming melee, suggests it might be doing just a little TOO well compared to axe and sword. Possibly due to how quickly skill 2 procs Justice.

On 3/3/2024 at 8:06 PM, Titan.7853 said:

I see your point here.

The first tests I did were trying to get the maximum out of the rotation the way it will be played, which included Rushing Justice.  That resulted in approximately a 50% reduction of dps when not having the target in the symbol (from 20k roughly to 10k on my build).  I decided to go retest without using Rushing Justice at all.  I did, however, decide to trigger burn on strike using Whirling Light.  My rationale for this is that the symbol grants burn on strike damage, so I'll not restrict myself to pistol #2, but typical utility skills, which includes Whirling Light.

The golem readouts were as follows with all the boons added to me, and all the conditions added to the golem, no food or utility buff.  I was running a Celestial Radiance/Virtues/Willbender build:

No Rushing Justice, burn on strike triggered with Pistol #2 and Whirling Light:

DPS: 12,287 
DPS: 12,345

No Rushing Justice, at range (target out of symbol):

DPS: 9,881
DPS: 9,868

Which results in approximately a 20% damage reduction.

Hrrmn. I'm concerned that approach still means that some of the 20% is coming from not having the base damage from Whirling Light. Could try using Purging Flames or Sword of Justice with Eternal Armory as a substitute.

Mind you, I think the general point has been demonstrated, and if it's resolved, it probably doesn't matter how much the gap actually was.

Edited March 4 by draxynnic.3719

[Mysticjedi.6053]

Grown to like pistols. Especially  skill 3. It has a lot of utility. I think skill 5 charge could have the charge go up like stairs. 

[SpaceMarine.1836]

There is something really weird about Pistol skill 2. The combination of the dull sound effect and soft beam makes the skill feel like it does nothing. I mean the damage numbers do show up, but the skill has no feeling of impact or action. It's really weird, but every time I use it I feel like just nothing happened 😐

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

A bit sad #3 isn't ground targeted, or at least displaced in front like axe #2, like you shoot in front of you, not in your foot; it would really help to turn around and make the most profit from the effect.
I don't really understand the point of #5.
Otherwise, simple to handle and really fun.

Edited March 7 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Titan.7853]

I just want to chime back in regarding the symbol.  

Earlier I had proposed a compromise for players who want a ranged symbol, and that was the  idea of key bind options for "Snap to Player Character" and "Toggle Snap to Player Character" if a ranged symbol were to be introduced.  I am still not in favor of this, and the following are additional reasons why a ranged symbol by default is a bad idea.  I have already covered the fact that enemies will simply leave the symbol, so I won't beat a dead horse.

After a lot of time with pistol/pistol Willbender, I have to say that Willbender is already very clunky to play.  Enemy targeting can already be a big problem due to all the mobility options, but on top of that you have to press F2 to activate Flowing Resolve, then choose a direction to go with your mouse, then click the mouse to activate it.  Then you must target the correct enemy to either port to them or use F1 Rushing Justice.  Or you activate Crashing Courage by pressing F3,  and you already have a ranged AoE field to place, then you click again, and then you can can burst.  Frankly its sort of a mess already.

To add another ranged symbol placement on top of all this would be disgusting.  It would be poor design by committee, stuffing in every option possible in a way that would render it unplayable.  Please don't do it.  It's a blessing right now just to click 3, and be able to do a short burst inside Symbol of Ignition.

Lastly, I play a lot of PvP, and every time I die and respawn, "Toggle Snap to Ground Target" gets reset, which I constantly forget because of muscle memory needed in fast gameplay, and I am constantly frustrated by it with Longbow #4.  I can only imagine the added frustration if Symbol of Ignition were to become ranged with a "Toggle Snap to Player Character" option.  I might tear my hair out after knowing how smooth it is right now.  Additionally, all of these "Snap to" and "Toggle to" options already necessitate pressing the key an additional time (slowing a rotation) even when they work.

Devs, if for some reason you decide you want the option to have the symbol ranged, then please consider adding a "Toggle Ranged Symbol" key bind option instead.  That would be a better compromise than the solution I proposed earlier.  That way we can enjoy the Symbol of Ignition the way it is now as the default option for smooth fast gameplay, and the players who want it ranged won't ruin it for the rest of us.  Thank you!

Edited March 13 by Titan.7853

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Titan.7853 said:

I just want to chime back in regarding the symbol.  

Earlier I had proposed a compromise for players who want a ranged symbol, and that was the  idea of key bind options for "Snap to Player Character" and "Toggle Snap to Player Character" if a ranged symbol were to be introduced.  I am still not in favor of this, and the following are additional reasons why a ranged symbol by default is a bad idea.  I have already covered the fact that enemies will simply leave the symbol, so I won't beat a dead horse.

After a lot of time with pistol/pistol Willbender, I have to say that Willbender is already very clunky to play.  Enemy targeting can already be a big problem due to all the mobility options, but on top of that you have to press F2 to activate Flowing Resolve, then choose a direction to go with your mouse, then click the mouse to activate it.  Then you must target the correct enemy to either port to them or use F1 Rushing Justice.  Or you activate Crashing Courage by pressing F3,  and you already have a ranged AoE field to place, then you click again, and then you can can burst.  Frankly its sort of a mess already.

To add another ranged symbol placement on top of all this would be disgusting.  It would be poor design by committee, stuffing in every option possible in a way that would render it unplayable.  Please don't do it.  It's a blessing right now just to click 3, and be able to do a short burst inside Symbol of Ignition.

Lastly, I play a lot of PvP, and every time I die and respawn, "Toggle Snap to Ground Target" gets reset, which I constantly forget because of muscle of memory needed in fast gameplay, and I am constantly frustrated by it with Longbow #4.  I can only imagine the added frustration if Symbol of Ignition were to become ranged with a "Toggle Snap to Player Character" option.  I might tear my hair out after knowing how smooth it is right now.  Additionally, all of these "Snap to" and "Toggle to" options already necessitate pressing the key an additional time (slowing a rotation) even when they work.

Devs, if for some reason you decide you want the option to have the symbol ranged, then please consider adding a "Toggle Ranged Symbol" key bind option instead.  That would be a better compromise than the solution I proposed earlier.  That way we can enjoy the Symbol of Ignition the way it is now as the default option for smooth fast gameplay, and the players who want it ranged won't ruin it for the rest of us.  Thank you!

Actually willbender is one of the classes I liked playing with a controller. Thumbstick + F2 was rather smooth. Of course, using a controller pretty much means I'm already using snap to target and quick target for ground targeted skills, so that's already streamlined too. 

And as stated before, I'm only cool with Ignition being self targeted if it means all my other skills get ignited, not just projectiles or targets inside the symbol. Otherwise, I sadly don't see a use in many of my builds for it. Through the Heart and Hail are fun, but just can't compete with any combination of Rushing Justice, Purging Flames, Scorched Aftermath, or Whirling Wrath. 

On a possibly related note, Zealot's Defense will no longer root soon. 

[draxynnic.3719]

Toggle snap to ground target resetting feels like a 'that's a bug that should be fixed' problem rather than a 'weapon design should take that bug into account' problem, let alone a 'this ranged weapon should have a significant portion of its power budget reliant on being in melee range' justification.

[Jokuc.3478]

They're fine for the most part but I really hate pistol 5 because it's so awkward to use. Not only is it really annoying to have to "explode" the projectile even if it hits a target as it would otherwise go right through, but it's hard to know which charge of the skill you are at. 1 2 or 3. I would like there to be some visual indication like a bar split in 3 slices or so that clearly shows you how long you have to wait to get which charge. And about the explosion, if you let it explode by itself the timing is much slower than making it explode manually which is also stupid.

[Sonork.2916]

After seeing pistol 5 explode for amazing dmg in pve, i'vd love it to do actual phy dmg in pvp/wvw as well.  I'd prefer big dmg to a kitten knockback.  Also make it a beam that just fires out like a walmart prime light beam but only at lvl 3.  

lvl 3 = 900 range beam, unblockable, 1 big dmg hit with some burn.

Edited March 12 by Sonork.2916

[Titan.7853]

8 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

After seeing pistol 5 explode for amazing dmg in pve, i'vd love it to do actual phy dmg in pvp/wvw as well.  I'd prefer big dmg to a kitten knockback.  Also make it a beam that just fires out like a walmart prime light beam but only at lvl 3.  

lvl 3 = 900 range beam, unblockable, 1 big dmg hit with some burn.

I really like this idea actually. 

If you want a quick knockback, you can still have it (I double tap 5 for a quick knockback constantly).  

If you want the big unblockable attack, charge all the way to 3 and unleash the beam (which would be way faster than a projectile).

I get the impression that Jurisdiction is the developer's baby, and that despite the lackluster reception, he's reluctant to change the detonate at will feature.  I can totally understand that.  

So I have a proposed solution, and I think it's a good solution:

• Charge level 1:  Behaves exactly the same, nothing changes.  It knocks back people and does some damage and burn.  Love it.
• Charge level 2:  Now behaves exactly like charge level 3.  You can detonate at will, it does extra burn and bigger damage.
• Charge level 3:  1200 range strike damage beam (like pistol #2 but wider), unblockable, 1 big dmg and big burn.

I would be thrilled with these changes. 

With these changes, each charge level gets clearly differentiated behavior.  It's easier to understand, easier to communicate, and more intuitive.  Jurisdiction keeps the detonate at will feature, which is honestly a fun feature.  I mostly don't use detonate at will because of the long charge time, and the slow projectile that fires after that.  It just takes too long in most of my encounters.  By moving the detonate at will to charge level 2, I think I'd use it a lot more, and on top of that charge level 3 would fire a faster beam!  In fact, you wouldn't need to nerf the detonate at will projectile at level 2, because the reward at level 3 is that it's unblockable, so they could have equivalent max damage.  The full charged beam could even go to 1200 range, sort of how True Shot gets an extra 300 range on Longbow. 

What do you guys think?  I am hyped just thinking about it xD

Edited March 13 by Titan.7853

[Ezrael.6859]

Charge level 1 detonates on the first target it hits.

Charge level 2 will pass through other enemies and detonate on your actual target.

[Jokuc.3478]

On 3/13/2024 at 1:02 AM, Ezrael.6859 said:

Charge level 1 detonates on the first target it hits.

Charge level 2 will pass through other enemies and detonate on your actual target.

I think this is a good solution. Make it detonate on your target, not first one it hits. This way you can pierce with it without having the annoying crap of having to blow it up yourself. I still like the ability to blow it up manually, but the fact that the 3rd charge can go right through the targeted enemy is kind of bs.

[Ezrael.6859]

What I described is the behaviour already.

[Saiyan.1704]

4 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

What I described is the behaviour already.

And that's the exact issue we're having with Charge#2 and #3, they're just so forgettable 😂
The last time I used Charge#2 or #3 was during the weapons beta... Simply spam Pistol#5 for a quick knockback and follow up with a Rushing Justice or P#4 burst. There just isn't any reason to charge up past #1 in sPvP unless you're on a meme inefficient condi build.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

And that's the exact issue we're having with Charge#2 and #3, they're just so forgettable 😂
The last time I used Charge#2 or #3 was during the weapons beta... Simply spam Pistol#5 for a quick knockback and follow up with a Rushing Justice or P#4 burst. There just isn't any reason to charge up past #1 in sPvP unless you're on a meme inefficient condi build.

Actually there are 2 reasons to charge #5 that I can think of.

1. You are waiting for a fight to begin and can use it as an opener.
2. You have a big boss with a giant hit box just standing around with its breakbar open, and you forgot to bring Sanctuary.

Oh, wait, neither of those are effective in competitive play. RIP pistols again... (But those are the only real uses in PVE too. 😆)

[Ezrael.6859]

17 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

And that's the exact issue we're having with Charge#2 and #3, they're just so forgettable 😂
The last time I used Charge#2 or #3 was during the weapons beta... Simply spam Pistol#5 for a quick knockback and follow up with a Rushing Justice or P#4 burst. There just isn't any reason to charge up past #1 in sPvP unless you're on a meme inefficient condi build.

If you're fighting a Ranger with a pet, Necro with any pets, Mesmer with clones, Engi with turrets or pet or any kind of group fight, you need charge level 2 in order to have the projectile go through other enemies and actually knockback your target.

If you just use level 1 then it can easily be intercepted by something else and you end up knocking back a clone or something only.

 

As for charge level 3, I've used it to knock several people away from rezzes and finishes before, but it's tricky to time, and QoL it would be better if it auto detonated upon reaching my target after I spent so long to channel it to level 3.

Edited March 16 by Ezrael.6859

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

If you're fighting a Ranger with a pet, Necro with any pets, Mesmer with clones, Engi with turrets or pet or any kind of group fight, you need charge level 2 in order to have the projectile go through other enemies and actually knockback your target.

If you just use level 1 then it can easily be intercepted by something else and you end up knocking back a clone or something only.

 

As for charge level 3, I've used it to knock several people away from rezzes and finishes before, but it's tricky to time, and QoL it would be better if it auto detonated upon reaching my target after I spent so long to channel it to level 3.

You're against pet classes and have time to charge Jurisdiction? What kind of noobs are you fighting? Wait, are you one of those lunatics that charges mantras in pvp too? 😅

Disrupting finishes and revives is a solid use I didn't think of.  So that's cool. We all agree it would be better to auto-detonate, but ANet don't care.

(In case it isn't obvious, the 😅 means that's tongue in cheek.)

[Saiyan.1704]

6 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

If you're fighting a Ranger with a pet, Necro with any pets, Mesmer with clones, Engi with turrets or pet or any kind of group fight, you need charge level 2 in order to have the projectile go through other enemies and actually knockback your target.

If you just use level 1 then it can easily be intercepted by something else and you end up knocking back a clone or something only.

 

As for charge level 3, I've used it to knock several people away from rezzes and finishes before, but it's tricky to time, and QoL it would be better if it auto detonated upon reaching my target after I spent so long to channel it to level 3.

In WvW I for sure see this being a thing but in sPvP Conquest, it is 100% a waste of time. I can think of 5 other things to do in replacement of waiting for a pistol#5 charge, but I feel you're talking about WvW situations.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

In WvW I for sure see this being a thing but in sPvP Conquest, it is 100% a waste of time. I can think of 5 other things to do in replacement of waiting for a pistol#5 charge, but I feel you're talking about WvW situations.

It's usually a waste for WvW roaming too. In zergs or GvG, you can usually get others to cover you while charging, but you have to be careful unless the other team is just totally unorganized.