Ranger Mace Daze Spam

[MilkyTea.9042]

How is this even remotely balanced? Stuns for days while going oonga boonga

Edited April 6 by MilkyTea.9042

[Flowki.7194]

Its bladesworn with a pet. I was playing it for a little, but then realised how kitten it actually is, the weapon skill refresh for example, thats an elite skill on cata, just casually baked in for free.

 

Btw what build was it? I was playing it with GS untamed, but never got around to testing it with sword/warhorn + quickdraw, which I assume still procs on maces?

Edited April 6 by Flowki.7194

[Voodoo.3201]

U go sage druid mace mace hammer. 
mm for moment of clarity then wild for carnivore, savagery works on stun/daze tooltip wont update it. Smokescale and iboga 

[felincyriac.5981]

the ranger main dev seems to like it, unfortunate for the non-ranger mains

[Tycura.1982]

14 hours ago, MilkyTea.9042 said:

How is this even remotely balanced? Stuns for days while going oonga boonga

Have you actually used the mace? It's got one stun (mainhand) and one daze (offhand). The stun is on the leap animation similar to Rev mace. The daze is at the end of the chain of hits on mace 5 where they bring both weapons down. The excessive amount of CC you're encountering is most likely due to two reasons. 1. The mace skills reset because of the "Force of Nature" unique buff. This is fundamentally broken and should be nerfed into the ground (imo) and that's coming from someone who's been spamming ranger lately. No other weapon in the game resets all of its skills for free. 2. You're missing the forest for the trees. Ranger has a lot of CC baked in. They've got traits that extend CC duration. What you're encountering is people building for CC because someone at anet was like "What if we gave ranger lightning rod but instead of weakness it healed them?" In addition to "What if we gave ranger side noding weapons with CC to compliment hammer?" And to their credit, ranger needed something to make hammer work, but, maces totally overshadow it. Maces do need a nerf but it's more over that mace 2 and 5 needs it's damage toned back a little and the reset mechanic needs to be scrapped, reworked, or reduced to something like 50%. At the end if the day, you need something that can stall against other side noders. Something has to offset warrior. Cata loses to Spellbreaker.

TL/DR: Resets make mace op but otherwise they're just really good. 

Edited April 7 by Tycura.1982

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

The Ranger maces are good in pve but impractical to run in pvp for several reasons:

1. In pvp things do not stand still. The maces both mainhand and offhand, are too slow and have no ranged pressure.
2. Due to no ranged pressure or built in defenses, maces make a bad +ing roam option. They also make a bad side node option because all good side node builds have to lean on synergized condi/defensive builds or power builds with a lot less power output traded in for a lot more sustain, then the maces just deal bad damage. And due to the limited ranged and no ranged pressure, people can kite it too easily on the side node and just avoid strikes.
3. Literally anything with stability or frontloaded shielding like DH F3 or Photon Wall that allows you to block while attacking, just treads all over mace Rangers. If you can't IMMEDIATELY secure the CC chain gimmick and actually maintain it, you lose.
4. The only half functional mace Ranger I've encountered was ran by Doze and it was a Druid. It had to run full DPS/CC build to make the gimmick work with marks & midnight king relic. It feels super OP hard counter when you do not have stab and you do not have mechanics like DH F3 or Photon Wall. But if you do, you can just turn on the Ranger and kill it while ignoring CCs. It can't brawl like Soulbeast Sword that actually has evades. The CCs is all it has. If you shut it down, it dies too easily. It is also bad, worse than Engis, when focused by more than 1 person. These Ranger mace builds can't stat for practical builds to run in conquest matches or even 2v2s. They're atrociously bad when getting +d. If they want the maces to be functional at all, they have to stat for some weird 1v1 builds and in that case they just get booted into respawn any time they get focused. Absolutely no mechanics to deal with 2 people chasing and can't stat for sustain if they want the maces to be practical to use at all.

So to clarify what's actually happening here with Ranger maces:

It's really good at shutting down and hard countering things that do not pump stability that don't have functions like DH F3, Photon Wall, or Distortion, ect ect. It's also good at shutting down low skill-cap players in general who attempt to stand on nodes in its face rather than kite & utilize their range vs. the maces. But it in turn gets way too hard countered by anything with the aforementioned mechanics to deal with it, by anything that kites it, and by getting +d in general. It has serious mechanical holes in its design structure that prevents it from being competitive. There are big reasons why it was not used the previous MAT, why it isn't being used in daily ATs, why no Ranger above G2 is running it, and why we won't be seeing it in the upcoming MAT either.

I agree the maces need changes, but saying "they need nerfs" is the wrong way to look at this. If anything, they need some kind of rework to reduce the damage potential but to also enhance the mace's practicality to actually hit things. I mean seriously, they give everything massive tele-burst potential nowadays. So when you take a class that's traits and foundational theory were designed completely around ranged bow play and then start giving it slow melee only no-porting weapon kits, it doesn't synergize well for today's metas.

I'm not being "biased" either. I don't use those maces. They're completely impractical to use against even G2+ players. I'm just explaining why.

Edited April 7 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1.  why no Ranger above G2 is running it, and why we won't be seeing it in the upcoming MAT either.

 

Then why are plat 2 olive cats running it 🧐

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Its really annoying but you can kind of just press w until they finish spamming. I would say Moment of Clarity is the problem here. 50% stun/daze duration trait basically lets you stunlock anything without stab, especially when you combine it with mesmer runes.

[whooot.5784]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The Ranger maces are good in pve but impractical to run in pvp for several reasons:

Your bad faith and biased opinion is alarming my friend.

Every single competent rangers players I am seeing in plat game+ are running double mace, they all say double mace is brocken. They could be untamed, soulbeast, or even druid, name a pick, they are all running mace, mate ...
Even the Mighty Holy, half Human-God named "Boyce" says it's OP. And when Boyce says my cat is OP, you better to believe it, cause it is, my cat is so cute, and so sweat, the cutest cat in the entiere universe (I am not biased about my cat, this is a fact).
Joke aside, it just went completly under the radar cause it's a bit outshined by staff warrior at the moment, but when warrior will be gutted, and it will be, ranger will become the new uncontested god.

Double mace is the second most op weapon of this expac ( Speacking about sJcj there, idk about others mods).

With double mace you have big damage, barrier, heal, cc, cleanse (the only weakness of soulbeast had btw, gone, because of this weapon...) and extrem good synergys with smoke scale field cause of the leap. Basicly, you're dying as ranger with double mace, this is on you, cause no matter the build you're playing with it you're not supposed to die with it.

You're principal argument is:

- it was not played in MAT, which in not true, it was, not in winning team tho cause of warrior, but it would have been other wise

-It's countered by stab and block like photo wall or dh f3 (mmh, you just have to wait few second for that, few second where you have all the sustain, stealth in the world to sustain and not dying in this little gap of time, things that ranger seems to have by billion thoses days), and stab doesn't prevent to take damage, you also have a pet that can sent some nuclear bombs in the same time.

Like you said, it's probably good for rekting "bads players", but you omitted the fact that it can also rekt goods players easily with it... Buttons are just better than anything else. By definition, when a build is good at defeating good players, it's also good at defeating bad player, this is a fact, you were not fundamentaly wrong by saying that, you just omitted some truth in it ...

I am not a ranger main so I couldn't tell what thing would be appropriate to nerf, but c'mon, you can't deny the fact this is op, particulary the reset thing on the weapon set...

I have read in other post that it's like a bladesworn (when it was trully brocken) with a pet, honnestly, I kinda agreed, I feel the same.

Nerf warrior, ranger will shine so much more than the sun itself, and it already does kinda, the number of ranger playing it is alarming, this is the new sexy btw, for the ranger main certainly, but definitly NOT for no-ranger main.

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The Ranger maces are good in pve but impractical to run in pvp for several reasons:

1. In pvp things do not stand still. The maces both mainhand and offhand, are too slow and have no ranged pressure.
2. Due to no ranged pressure or built in defenses, maces make a bad +ing roam option. They also make a bad side node option because all good side node builds have to lean on synergized condi/defensive builds or power builds with a lot less power output traded in for a lot more sustain, then the maces just deal bad damage. And due to the limited ranged and no ranged pressure, people can kite it too easily on the side node and just avoid strikes.
3. Literally anything with stability or frontloaded shielding like DH F3 or Photon Wall that allows you to block while attacking, just treads all over mace Rangers. If you can't IMMEDIATELY secure the CC chain gimmick and actually maintain it, you lose.
4. The only half functional mace Ranger I've encountered was ran by Doze and it was a Druid. It had to run full DPS/CC build to make the gimmick work with marks & midnight king relic. It feels super OP hard counter when you do not have stab and you do not have mechanics like DH F3 or Photon Wall. But if you do, you can just turn on the Ranger and kill it while ignoring CCs. It can't brawl like Soulbeast Sword that actually has evades. The CCs is all it has. If you shut it down, it dies too easily. It is also bad, worse than Engis, when focused by more than 1 person. These Ranger mace builds can't stat for practical builds to run in conquest matches or even 2v2s. They're atrociously bad when getting +d. If they want the maces to be functional at all, they have to stat for some weird 1v1 builds and in that case they just get booted into respawn any time they get focused. Absolutely no mechanics to deal with 2 people chasing and can't stat for sustain if they want the maces to be practical to use at all.

So to clarify what's actually happening here with Ranger maces:

It's really good at shutting down and hard countering things that do not pump stability that don't have functions like DH F3, Photon Wall, or Distortion, ect ect. It's also good at shutting down low skill-cap players in general who attempt to stand on nodes in its face rather than kite & utilize their range vs. the maces. But it in turn gets way too hard countered by anything with the aforementioned mechanics to deal with it, by anything that kites it, and by getting +d in general. It has serious mechanical holes in its design structure that prevents it from being competitive. There are big reasons why it was not used the previous MAT, why it isn't being used in daily ATs, why no Ranger above G2 is running it, and why we won't be seeing it in the upcoming MAT either.

I agree the maces need changes, but saying "they need nerfs" is the wrong way to look at this. If anything, they need some kind of rework to reduce the damage potential but to also enhance the mace's practicality to actually hit things. I mean seriously, they give everything massive tele-burst potential nowadays. So when you take a class that's traits and foundational theory were designed completely around ranged bow play and then start giving it slow melee only no-porting weapon kits, it doesn't synergize well for today's metas.

I'm not being "biased" either. I don't use those maces. They're completely impractical to use against even G2+ players. I'm just explaining why.

Im not sure to what degree mace is viable at top level, but that single aproach to balance is not healthy. The maces have all the makings of a completely broken weapon set, and I dare say people have not played out side the box enough with them to find builds that are broken at sub-elite level, where "l2p" is a weak argument that dismisses bad design.

 

If you look at SLB for a second, quickdraw would offer 2x evade serp gap closers pluss pounce, while hunter call is some decent setup/chase damage, and assault yet anoter good gap/chaser +dmg.  Then in swapping to mace you have another 2x gap closers which is also a stun. Thats five gap closers, or 4 if not using SLB, which for me is not "easily kited", if you compare that to something like hammer cata. Ontop of that you have stealth to use defensively if out kited, and you have protection/barrier and a strong cleanse on demand while ducking for los abuse. There is also the option of bird secondary pet, which has a large gap closer (if mobility is the weapons core issue then is a genuine work around option). In the right hands this would be a difficult spec to fight, if you get on point its like an SPB, it will sit on it with you and dish out dmg+CC/sustain, which I can see many specs probably can't do (outside of the obvious bunkers). If you try to kite kill, it will do what all good SPBs do, use the same mitigation to reach LOS abuse, and get back on point to block, if you do. It would tip the capping/defense power toward the mace ranger for quite a few specs than can't stand toe to toe with it. Or in a nutshell, if staff SPB and druid get nerfed into the ground, mace ranger seems like a good plan B.

 

I can only speak for myself in saying I am against specs that dominate a point toe to toe just becuase of the spec. Skill should massively dictate that level of point dominance. Hammer cata, and holo are examples of how that should look, hard enough so that mistakes are punished badly.. but rewarding enough that the point is yours if you play it well. Mace ranger in its essense is not that.. as I said before, its just bladesowrne, gief me barrier for smashing keys on point.

Edited April 7 by Flowki.7194

[Tycura.1982]

33 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Hammer cata, and holo are examples of how that should look, hard enough so that mistakes are punished badly..

There are way better examples of skill(effort) than a class that follows a rotation and one that slams suprise shot/particle accelerator off CD while running away. 😬

 

Edited April 7 by Tycura.1982

[Flowki.7194]

43 minutes ago, Tycura.1982 said:

There are way better examples of skill(effort) than a class that follows a rotation and one that slams suprise shot/particle accelerator off CD while running away. 😬

 

You could boil most specs (even SPB) down to a rotation if you wanted to, and we can then discuss encounter specific rotation lengths between specs and end up with the same conclusion; Some specs are just easier. Holo runs away, sure, so you are against the idea of kiting? Sounds like the game you want is bladesornes only. Stand on point (kitten kiters), smash random buttons (as to avoid rotations) for barrier+dps; fatest fingers win.

Edited April 7 by Flowki.7194

[Tycura.1982]

10 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You could boil most specs (even SPB) down to a rotation if you wanted to, and we can then discuss rotation length/combos between specs and end up with the same conclusion; Some specs are just easier. Holo runs away, sure, so you are against the idea of kiting? Sounds like the game you want is bladesornes only. Stand on point (kitten kiters), smash random buttons (as to avoid rotations) for barrier+dps; fastest fingers win.

Because I have a warrior profile picture? Did I strike a nerve? No. I'd rather see high effort things like untamed or core engineer have the highest skill ceiling and payout. I don't like that the game rewards block spam, instant cast skills, about face skills. Imagine an engineer that was balanced to fight without superspeed, about face skills, instant cast skills, and a blind on evade. Can you? Imagine a thief that was balanced around evasion rather than its ability to stealth. A DH that had to do more than roll its utility bar and press f3 on occasion. This game rewards low effort. Warrior is absolutely no exception. I just like brawlers. However, you can't accuse war of having no tells.

Edited April 7 by Tycura.1982

[Flowki.7194]

10 minutes ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Because I have a warrior profile picture? Did I strike a nerve? No. I'd rather see high effort things like untamed or core engineer have the highest skill ceiling. I don't like that game rewards block spam, instant cast skills, about face skills. Imagine an engineer that was balanced to fight without superspeed, about face skills, instant cast skills, and a blind on evade. Can you? Imagine a thief that was balanced around evasion rather than its ability to stealth. A DH that had to do more than roll its utility bar and press f3 on occasion. This game rewards low effort. Warrior is absolutely no exception. I just like brawlers. However, you can't accuse war of having no tells.

No, you just happen to have a warrior profile pic, and warrior happens to have some of the most mechanically basic specs in the game. There are no nerves to hit here becuase nothing I said was wrong, hammer cata is a difficult spec, as is holo, and as you pointed out power untamed/core engi (I really enjoyed duels with core engis). Im not even sure when I said warrior had no tells (broadcast abilities?). And for the record, hammer cata and holo dps are broadcast, its a question of what you should react to, which isnt easy ofc.. but thats the point, game sense and dodging/blocking is a skill too.

Edited April 7 by Flowki.7194

[Tycura.1982]

8 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

No, you just happen to have a warrior profile pic, and warrior happens to have some of the most mechanically basic specs in the game. There are no nerves to hit here becuase nothing I said was wrong, hammer cata is a difficult spec, as is holo, and as you pointed out power untamed/core engi (I really enjoyed duels with core engis). Im not even sure when I said warrior had no tells (broadcast abilities?). And for the record, hammer cata and holo dps are broadcast, its a question of what you should react to, which isnt easy ofc.. but thats the point, game sense and dodging/blocking is a skill too.

Cata has tells sure, but not a lot of counterplay outside of spamming unblockables. In a better game, cata should be worse than weaver. Holo at this moment is carried by superspeed, instant cast skills, explosive entrance, and sometimes grenade kit or mortar. Scrapper is more of the same. They should unnerf prot holo and dumpster the rest. Instant cast skills shouldn't exist. Aboutface skills shouldn't exist. 

[Flowki.7194]

30 minutes ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Cata has tells sure, but not a lot of counterplay outside of spamming unblockables. In a better game, cata should be worse than weaver. Holo at this moment is carried by superspeed, instant cast skills, explosive entrance, and sometimes grenade kit or mortar. Scrapper is more of the same. They should unnerf prot holo and dumpster the rest. Instant cast skills shouldn't exist. Aboutface skills shouldn't exist. 

 

Scepter cata is not what it use to be, and hammer cata is nion meme status now. What scepter cata had going for it, was mobility and immunes. The meta has changed though, mobility in general is high, and many specs have immunes that still allow the player to attack, which outclasses cata immunes (arcane shield is often better in that light). I just don't see scepter cata as a problem in the game, especially that their are easier or more reliable ways to achieve similar damage, while not being paper thin.

I agree with about skills, and I agree super speed is way over used. On the other hand, if youre going to reduce super speed from specs that depend on it, then you need to compensate with more sustain, same as if you add more stealth counters for thief, they need more ways to actively mitigate being caught, which doesnt involve yet more kitten TPs

I don't have a problem with instant cast skills, so long as they don't do rediculous damage. Broadcast level should scale with damage, and in terms of hard CC, it should scale with duration, I would also count daze as hard CC if it already isnt.. its too powerful to be instant. Things like blind/weakness are fine as instants, but the amount they can be spammed is an issue.

 

 

Edited April 7 by Flowki.7194

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Remember certain posters telling me maces were useless in all the betas, when I posted videos of them working pretty well in WvW and had opinion that only thing holding them back was Natures' Strength generation (which they fixed).  

Anyway, now here we predictably are with the complaint threads in the PvP forums because mace/mace appeared in semis of EU mAT.  

I hate to say it, but with or without maces, power soulbeast is oppressive.  It always has been, no matter how many times they react nerf it because the community hates Ranger.  It also always will be oppressive, because you can sub mace/mace for GS and have slightly worse but very similar results.  

Problem is, oppressive or not, it's still not good enough to make mAT finals like support chrono or staff spellbreaker--actually good specs.

[Voodoo.3201]

34 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Remember certain posters telling me maces were useless in all the betas, when I posted videos of them working pretty well in WvW and had opinion that only thing holding them back was Natures' Strength generation (which they fixed).  

Anyway, now here we predictably are with the complaint threads in the PvP forums because mace/mace appeared in semis of EU mAT.  

I hate to say it, but with or without maces, power soulbeast is oppressive.  It always has been, no matter how many times they react nerf it because the community hates Ranger.  It also always will be oppressive, because you can sub mace/mace for GS and have slightly worse but very similar results.  

Problem is, oppressive or not, it's still not good enough to make mAT finals like support chrono or staff spellbreaker--actually good specs.

Wait for next mat with druid return with mace mace hammer

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Voodoo.3201 said:

Wait for next mat with druid return with mace mace hammer

In what role, bunker? 

So, Druid would try and match with staff SpB for this role, and ultimatley lose as war has more CCs and Ranger little/predictable access to stability?

[Voodoo.3201]

5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

In what role, bunker? 

So, Druid would try and match with staff SpB for this role, and ultimatley lose as war has more CCs and Ranger little/predictable access to stability?

You realise this new build does indeed beat staff spb? You have so much cc on druid pair it with moment of claritys cc dur increase + savagery sigil. Carnivore and sage for the sustain. 
 

But hey, wanna bet gold over seeing it in mat?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

54 minutes ago, Voodoo.3201 said:

You realise this new build does indeed beat staff spb? You have so much cc on druid pair it with moment of claritys cc dur increase + savagery sigil. Carnivore and sage for the sustain. 
 

But hey, wanna bet gold over seeing it in mat?

Why would I bet gold when your opinion on something WB is:

On 4/6/2024 at 12:16 PM, Voodoo.3201 said:

No its busted needs nerf

Unless that was trolling, in which case--carry on. 

BTW, March mAT was after the patch where everything you list above was available for builds--slb build in semis even use savagery sigil, etc.  

Anyway, my last serious take on this is, switching over to Druid does nothing, and taking hammer does nothing.  When you can provide some insane burst on M/M + Sw.Wh SLB there is zero reason to switch to Druid to spam like three more dazes and take an inferior weapon in hammer.  

Edited April 8 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Voodoo.3201]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Why would I bet gold when your opinion on something WB is:

Unless that was trolling, in which case--carry on. 

BTW, March mAT was after the patch where everything you list above was available for builds--slb build in semis even use savagery sigil, etc.  

Anyway, my last serious take on this is, switching over to Druid does nothing, and taking hammer does nothing.  When you can provide some insane burst on M/M + Sw.Wh SLB there is zero reason to switch to Druid to spam like three more dazes and take an inferior weapon in hammer.  

The wb part is meme. Bet or not? Slb loses to tons of MUs 1v1 u dont need "burst" u pick mm for the cc dur increase and druid has access to so many outside of wepset including s u s t a i n that slb does not have. Not to mention carnivore sustain. (As said u run sage on druid)

Even me as DE farm m/m slb.

I know cus i played semis in eu mat... on my alt..(this alt specifically) my main is @Sindrener.1592 

Edited April 8 by Voodoo.3201

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Voodoo.3201 said:

The wb part is meme. Bet or not? Slb loses to tons of MUs 1v1 u dont need "burst" u pick mm for the cc dur increase and druid has access to so many outside of wepset including s u s t a i n that slb does not have. Not to mention carnivore sustain. (As said u run sage on druid)

Even me as DE farm m/m slb.

I know cus i played semis in eu mat... on my alt..(this alt specifically) my main is @Sindrener.1592 

If you're sindrener then I am Goku 😂

[Sindrener.1592]

3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

If you're sindrener then I am Goku 😂

Better? Heres the semifinals vod https://youtu.be/P6BJRdl15eA?si=zdRooy16pjOTQq6I

 

add deathsadvance char to friends and see the acc name of it

[Jedrik.3109]

11 minutes ago, Sindrener.1592 said:

Better? Heres the semifinals vod https://youtu.be/P6BJRdl15eA?si=zdRooy16pjOTQq6I

 

add deathsadvance char to friends and see the acc name of it

Ahhhhhh, feels soo good...