Thoughts on defence changes as they relate to Keeps

[Riba.3271]

You just need more time, right? If you slow down attackers at one objective by 20%, then after they take couple objectives you suddenly have 5 minutes more to build defenses.

Obviously with linking system, it is hard to have ton of players one discord message away from logging in, but it is still doable. Main reason why competitive commanders with numbers didn't tag up to defend was because defending was not competitive environment. Even if you managed to barely defend, it didn't translate to being able to attack due to massive stat swings (1200+ stats, so 45% damage worth, when speaking about keeps)

[Riba.3271]

You just need more time, right? If you slow down attackers at one objective by 20%, then after they take couple objectives you suddenly have 5 minutes more to build defenses.

Obviously with linking system, it is hard to have ton of players one discord message away from logging in, but it is still doable. Main reason why competitive commanders with numbers didn't tag up to defend was because defending was not competitive environment. Even if you managed to barely defend, it didn't translate to being able to attack due to massive stat swings (1200+ stats, so 45% damage worth, when speaking about keeps)

[Riba.3271]

You just need more time, right? If you slow down attackers at one objective by 20%, then after they take couple objectives you suddenly have 5 minutes more to build defenses.

Obviously with linking system, it is hard to have ton of players one discord message away from logging in, but it is still doable. Main reason why competitive commanders with numbers didn't tag up to defend was because defending was not competitive environment. Even if you managed to barely defend, it didn't translate to being able to attack due to massive stat swings (1200+ stats, so 45% damage worth, when speaking about keeps)

[One more for the road.8950]

26 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

You just need more time, right? If you slow down attackers at one objective by 20%, then after they take couple objectives you suddenly have 5 minutes more to build defenses or gather numbers.

Obviously with linking system, it is hard to have ton of players one discord message away from logging in, so that is partly at fault. Main reason why competitive commanders with numbers didn't tag up to defend was because defending was not competitive environment. Even if you managed to barely defend, it didn't translate to being able to attack due to massive stat swings (1200+ stats (45% damage) when speaking about keeps). Now WvW will slowly return to state where commander going for an objective is not hated by most of competitive playerbase anymore.

You do love your percentages but you don't know how to use it. Slow attackers by 20% based on what number where? 

[Mabi black.1824]

On 4/20/2024 at 10:15 PM, One more for the road.8950 said:

The most organised guilds/players doesn't need this, they have been fort farming forever with 20-30 people against many times as many defenders for ages already.

I often see some videos of these fighting guilds to show you 20 vs all over the world. They move in a coordinated way on the voice, they are very good, one on top of the other, on the screen they look like 4 cats. Then you look at the top left of the team and find out that there are 45 of them. Then you look at everything that clouds around you that fills half the screen with red dots. Pause. You count them and find 30 of them. 😉

[Riba.3271]

27 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

56 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

 

You do love your percentages but you don't know how to use it. Slow attackers by 20% based on what number where? 

You can buff wall and gate hitpoints by 25%, then attackers take 20% stronger to breach 1/1.25 *100% = 80%. You can also increase supply costs of some siege.

Edited April 23 by Riba.3271

[One more for the road.8950]

2 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I often see some videos of these fighting guilds to show you 20 vs all over the world. They move in a coordinated way on the voice, they are very good, one on top of the other, on the screen they look like 4 cats. Then you look at the top left of the team and find out that there are 45 of them. Then you look at everything that clouds around you that fills half the screen with red dots. Pause. You count them and find 30 of them. 😉

I have played in them myself. And against them. I know you can do this just fine with 20-30 as long as you have the right comp,  get the boon generation up and go and have ppl that do what they're supposed to do on the right build.  And it's not anything new.

Clouders, sure, but inside an enemy keep fort farming many times your own number , clouders from your side won't last long due to either skill or lack of booms the same way as enemies and they're usually stuck outside pretty fast unless third server comes to join in.

Every now and then a squad might have higher numbers as they start out, but you'll usually find ppl getting peeled off until there's a core of players that's on your wall and the rest are at their spawn,  stuck outside or getting sniped on their way in.

This is why I am referring to player and server difference because not everyone want to invest to be able to play like that or even want to play like that. And that any changes that makes this even easier for those that can but punish those who can't  is inherently bad because it lowers both skill ceiling and available content in the game mode. Knowing the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling versus just plain dumbing down is kinda important.

[One more for the road.8950]

16 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

You can buff wall and gate hitpoints by 25%, then attackers take 20% stronger to breach 1/1.25 *100% = 80%. You can also increase supply costs of some siege.

This math doesn't work the way you think it is.

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, Chaos God.1639 said:

so you need more team work and more supplies to defend, because few supplies won't fix the wall. I don't think i was the the only who cared more about rewards and loot bags than supplies. now I know that I can't just rebuild the wall with few supplies. so the supplies now became more important. why do you ignore this fact?

also destroying the walls is more valuable now. so people will probably start to build trebuchets more and actually use the wvw game mechanics like they were meant to be.

I also think they should add friendly area damage to catapults so that catapults would destroy themselves when they are used near walls. this way the attackers cant hide near walls and the defenders can destroy their catapult with other siege weapons.

there is difference between trying to understand something and just complaining the day after new changes were released. you think anet is going to just revert the changes immediately, because some people are being emotional on forums? ofc no, they will see how it goes for several weeks or days and then make a decision.

So did you notice all the adjustments listed have to be made by the defending side, while no adjustments were listed for the attacking side?

You only strengthened  Dawdler's argument. 🤣

 

Edited April 23 by ArchonWing.9480

[Jeydra.4386]

I'm not a fan either. One of the major problems of the format is when the other team has a large population advantage. If they have 40 vs 10 you are going to lose the keep anyway regardless of what you do, but with 40 vs 30 you have realistic chances of defending. Which gets harder after the nerfs to defense.

I think WvW needs more defense, not less.

However, having played with the changes for a while, I don't think they actually have much of an impact. In fact I don't think they've been decisive in any fights I've been in yet. The closest was one fight where an enemy server came to our T2 EBG keep and knocked down the gates. They were organized, we weren't. After a long fight we forced them out. Then they came back and this time flipped the keep. However, since they were barely downing, it doesn't feel like the changes had much impact (unless the extra power would've made a difference, which I doubt). If they were dying and their respawns still kept coming in because we didn't have the supply to patch the gates to 50%, then yeah, but that wasn't happening.

So ultimately, I don't think the changes had much impact, but the motivation behind the changes is disturbing.

PS: Maybe the biggest impact is a positive one - it's nice to be able to farm nodes while capping the circle.

[Thron Stal.9367]

7 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

I'm not a fan either. One of the major problems of the format is when the other team has a large population advantage. If they have 40 vs 10 you are going to lose the keep anyway regardless of what you do, but with 40 vs 30 you have realistic chances of defending. Which gets harder after the nerfs to defense.

I think WvW needs more defense, not less.

However, having played with the changes for a while, I don't think they actually have much of an impact. In fact I don't think they've been decisive in any fights I've been in yet. The closest was one fight where an enemy server came to our T2 EBG keep and knocked down the gates. They were organized, we weren't. After a long fight we forced them out. Then they came back and this time flipped the keep. However, since they were barely downing, it doesn't feel like the changes had much impact (unless the extra power would've made a difference, which I doubt). If they were dying and their respawns still kept coming in because we didn't have the supply to patch the gates to 50%, then yeah, but that wasn't happening.

So ultimately, I don't think the changes had much impact, but the motivation behind the changes is disturbing.

PS: Maybe the biggest impact is a positive one - it's nice to be able to farm nodes while capping the circle.

There is no motivation to even try to save anything anymore or hold anything, other than Content to fight in some cases.  In other cases you have giant boonballs PPTing every map and you cannot defend, if you try to fight them for content they run away. 

[Dark Dvid.2906]

The Golem change is one I especially hate. Since my start in WvW a main enjoyable pastime, which was taught to me by my prime tutor Holier whom I pray is at peace with his loved ones whom passed before, has been to siege NNC to the tits and defend it jumping from golem to golem holding off attackers till help comes. There have been many extended fights there thru this practice, with zergs repeatedly running from their southern spawns straight back for more fun. Sadly such scenarios are now passed, replaced with  a fast wham bam thank ya mam combat moment. I met many awesome players from other servers who expressed their thanks for providing them with so much fun thru my dedication to defense, and I will always remember the times.