Dunno wvw, can someone explain about participation penalties for losing fights/defense/underdog?

[cloudsareyum.8120]

I'm clueless and come from pvp so I was hoping some wvw vet would elucidate some stuff for me.  So in pvp you get credit for participating. But in wvw it seems like you lose participation for defense (unless you kill an opponent, a lot of stuff doesn't seem to count), fighting ( unless you kill an opponent. damage and dueling does not count), upgrading siege on newly leveled up towers/keeps, any underdog stuff whatsoever 

 

Since I'm clueless so is this like basically they want 0 defense flips all the time? Battles must be ones that are even or winning? Why is the fighting zerg that loses punished so hard? I'm sure it's a game design thing but can someone explain what the intention is here or what they know? Are you not meant to defend or scout?  So confused. What is best for roamer players to do when there is no zerg or the zerg is being out fought?

Thanks

 

- a know nothing about wvw

Edited May 6 by cloudsareyum.8120

[Zyreva.1078]

It is generally very easy to gain and maintain participation, as long you do something that isn't just stalling.

And stalling shouldn't be rewarded, because it is too easy to exploit and people would stop trying to win fights.

[Gorani.7205]

A few people complained that getting participation for defense events via e.g. wall repairs in defense events was too easy. When ANet introduced additional rewards (via the Mist Lockboxes, keys and a few more Skirmish Tickets), they took away any participation for repairs. That (unintentionally) showed how broken the game mechanic for calculating participation really is in GW2.  After one year, ANet Devs have not came forward with a straight answer about the problem of tower/keep defense events.

A current theory about getting participation for a tower/keep defense is, that you need to kill an enemy that has gained WXP via killing an NPC or player within the inner boundaries of the tower/keep to qualify for the defense event, while the timer for the event was running.

PS:  ANet has a very strong "attackers" bias when it comes to what they consider worth playing/participating in WvW. Anything that has been added to the game that seems to strengthen defense play (like lords healing allies when the defiance bar is not broken) is just a smokescreen to hide the progress of making the live of attackers easier (and even easier if you stack the maximum of attacking players on the smallest portion of available battlefield)

Sorry for the rant

Edited May 6 by Gorani.7205

[Chaba.5410]

38 minutes ago, cloudsareyum.8120 said:

What is best for roamer players to do when there is no zerg or the zerg is being out fought?

Roam the map. Capture camps, towers, sometimes even keeps, kill enemy yaks and sentries, kill enemy roamers, take bloodlust ruins, sidecar your own zerg, set supply and reveal traps, etc.

[Chaba.5410]

14 minutes ago, Gorani.7205 said:

A few people complained that getting participation for defense events via e.g. wall repairs in defense events was too easy.

I recall it differently. A lot of players, defenders, were complaining that supply was being all used up by players farming for rewards by constantly repairing walls. Get a friend on an enemy server to set up siege, repair wall. Players I knew on Maguuma were some of the most vocal criticizers of the rewards for wall repair.

Edited May 6 by Chaba.5410

[Gorani.7205]

13 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I recall it differently. A lot of players, defenders, were complaining that supply was being all used up by players farming for rewards by constantly repairing walls.

Sure, but has the problem of "supply drains by participation repairers" really been an issue outside of SMC, which has most potential for that? SMC is designed to be under fire all the time (in the center of a geometrically balanced map). I never saw an issue of supply running out in other keeps and towers, but IMO the impact of a possible problem with SMC was not dealt by addressing SMC, but a map wide nerf on any walled structure defense. 

[Chaba.5410]

3 minutes ago, Gorani.7205 said:

Sure, but has the problem of "supply drains by participation repairers" really been an issue outside of SMC, which has most potential for that? SMC is designed to be under fire all the time (in the center of a geometrically balanced map). I never saw an issue of supply running out in other keeps and towers, but IMO the impact of a possible problem with SMC was not dealt by addressing SMC, but a map wide nerf on any walled structure defense. 

It did happen outside of SMC when the bonus rewards were introduced.  I made a video of it at a bay on an alpine bl.  The thing about SMC too was that it gave the most bonus rewards so getting into that queued map took even longer than normal.

[Kranlor Greyhelm.8417]

Are you a ktrain boonballer? If so, your rewards are there to take. Just play the game, everything will be handed on a plate to you.

If you aren't a ktrain boonballer, then that's your mistake. You're playing the gamemode wrong, and that's why you aren't getting any rewards. You aren't supposed to get any if you play this game any other way. You're just bags for the boonballers as they steamroll around the map. Just don't dare put up too much of a defence, otherwise they'll nerf anything that isn't a boonball again.

Or just give up and stop playing it. Which seems to be what the devs want, based on their recent decision making.

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, cloudsareyum.8120 said:

I'm clueless and come from pvp so I was hoping some wvw vet would elucidate some stuff for me.  So in pvp you get credit for participating. But in wvw it seems like you lose participation for defense (unless you kill an opponent, a lot of stuff doesn't seem to count), fighting ( unless you kill an opponent. damage and dueling does not count), upgrading siege on newly leveled up towers/keeps, any underdog stuff whatsoever 

 

Since I'm clueless so is this like basically they want 0 defense flips all the time? Battles must be ones that are even or winning? Why is the fighting zerg that loses punished so hard? I'm sure it's a game design thing but can someone explain what the intention is here or what they know? Are you not meant to defend or scout?  So confused. What is best for roamer players to do when there is no zerg or the zerg is being out fought?

Thanks

 

- a know nothing about wvw

First off Welcome to the Mist War! 

For a direct reference to you question: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Participation_(WvW) 

Won't go into roaming versus a roamer. So I am going to assume you mean you were roaming around versus running solo against the world. Best beats if you are new I would say is the following order; Grab a battlebuddy that is familiar with WvW who is in guild or that you just connect with in WvW, find a public tag and join squad, find a havoc group to move with, or in the end find a friendly roamer that doesn't mind to say why they are doing what they do. I do see players on a regular basis that start their night off with are there any [fill in the blank] groups running in team chat.

As far as defending and attacking, odds are better you will get more from attacking in a group since they will probably be active. If you are trying to defend solo odds are better unless you end up killing players you will lose participation unless your actions lead to getting the defense event. There is a lot of back and fourths on the defense events. 

As far as just fighting, no only the winner of a fight is paid for that time. Why is that? I think it is fear of farming. If not dueling would become a farming event that wouldn't actually help a side to win the big nothing that we get now for winning. 

Another good section to take a quick look at is: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_Experience#WXP_acquisition

In short you will get paid nothing (which is where some of this ties into defense events) if the player you killed wasn't worth anything. So if the attacker you killed is just coming back from respawning and hasn't done anything since they spawned and gets killed again they aren't worth anything except maybe a loot bag. Its the same as spawn camping.

Note from the wiki: "Player kills will grant more WXP the longer the killed player has been alive. Getting different ranks (bronze/silver/gold) for event completion scales the WXP awarded, while various modifiers (see WXP modifiers section below) will grant a bonus to world experience. (Spawn Camping Enemy Players can give you 0 WXP)".

I think this also impacted the release of the failed attack event since if a zerg broke in and then was wiped how do they determine that the event occurred via the data they use to trigger the events. Most of the zerg that broke in would have gotten 0 WxP from the break in unless they were on the siege doing the breaking, and if they just use that the player has a value to kill them that might have been done on the way to the objective and not due to actions done at the objective itself. But that is theory crafting since they have never come out to state what is what, again due to fear of players then just gaming the system rules to one degree or another. 

Hope that helps and all welcome on Forum Wars 2. And as usual, thank you wiki players for qualifying things on the Wiki, links help a lot, appreciate your time!