Please explain me the point of rifle (specially PVP/WVW)

[DarkK.7368]

Right now I'm testing the hammer, and man, this things BREAKS the world. So much damage and defensive utilities. The downside? Risking in melee. Worth.

Other classes like deadeye can destroy you from range. They are supposed to deal less damage than melee, because it's less risk, but they have to manage distance and so. Okay, a fair trade.

And now, what's the point of engi rifle? It's long range damage is BAD. "It's because it has high close-damaging abilities, 2 shotgun and 5 melee jump". Okay, I do them... but they do A LOT LESS DAMAGE than hammer skills. Highest damaging skill (rifle jumsphot) hardly outdamages the WEAKEST hammer skill (electro-whirl) with double the cooldown (both give a defensive utility and a finisher). But then hammer has 3 and 5 that destroys the world while also giving tons of utility... Rifle 2 was supposed to deal high damage if close, but when you compare to melee counterparts, it hurts. And hammer 1 destroys rifle 1 in damage and in boons-conditions.

So... We got rifle with low ranged damage, but if you enter into melee, it deals low melee damage... "It's supposed to deal low melee damage to compensate it can deal ranged damage". But you just entered melee to deal the minimum damage, so you just lost ranged capabilities...

"But it can trigger aim-assisted rocket every 3 seconds spamming projectiles. Rifle is weak because aim-assisted rocket balances it". I thought the same. But hammer with whirl finishers from 2 and using the Shredding gyro can practically also trigger aim-assisted rocket every 3 seconds. And that means it also can get permafury from explosions trait.

"But rifle has a long-range single target knock down and inmobilize". Well, hammer has a 1200-range too AOE stun. That deals tons of AOE damage. And is a lighting field. 

So I'm devastated with rifle state right now. I'm missing something?

Edited May 7 by DarkK.7368

[DanAlcedo.3281]

You just spend more time thinking about rifle than the Balance team has done in over 10 years. 

Thats also the answer to your question. 

[DarkK.7368]

6 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You just spend more time thinking about rifle than the Balance team has done in over 10 years. 

Thats also the answer to your question. 

🥺

Yesterday in Bed I got an extra thought that may be key.

When full melee, when the enemy puts AOE in the ground, you're doomed. You eat them all and die, or you move out, then you can't attack until AOE dissipates... That's the melee high risk, high reward. Over 50% of PVP matches have this.

With rifle, I could get close for a 2 and 5, and when AOE's happen, I can move out and keep dealing damage at mid range...

Maybe this balances this out? Even if damage of rifle is like half than hammer, if you can keep attacking more than half of the time where hammer can't... I'm not sure how does it sound for high level PVP/WVW/PVE and not against/with newbies

Edited May 8 by DarkK.7368

[DanAlcedo.3281]

4 minutes ago, DarkK.7368 said:

🥺

Yesterday in Bed I got an extra thought that may be key.

When full melee, when the enemy puts AOE in the ground, you're doomed. You eat them all and die, or you move out, then you can't attack until AOE dissipates... That's the melee high risk, high reward. Over 50% of PVP matches have this.

With rifle, I could get close for a 2 and 5, and when AOE's happen, I can move out and keep dealing damage at mid range...

Maybe this balances this out? Even if damage of rifle is like half than hammer, if you can keep attacking more than half of the time where hammer can't... I'm not sure how does it sound for high level PVP/WVW/PVE and not against/with newbies

Same reason why some crazy underpowered cards are on the yugioh ban list. 

They have been overpowered 5 years ago and got the ban Hammer. Now they got mega powercreeped but nobody bothers to release the cards. 

Some weapons/traits/skills were OP years ago and got nerfed into oblivion. Anet style. 

Buffing them to Pre nerf state would be totally fine, often still being underpowered, but nobody bothers to do something. 

Anets Balance style is like maintenance. 

Only do something when you really need to. 

[Dadnir.5038]

The point of rifle? Of course it's to sell expansion. If the base options are bad of course you'll be tempted to buy "better" options.

[Gendalfs.7521]

21 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

If the base options are bad of course you'll be tempted to buy "better" options.

What options? Shortbow?

[strangewayes.2509]

As a Holosmith, I want the ability to swap to it in combat in open world encounters so I can shoot things that I can't reach. I already possess the ability to forget about it again afterward.

[SleepyBat.9034]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Same reason why some crazy underpowered cards are on the yugioh ban list. 

They have been overpowered 5 years ago and got the ban Hammer. Now they got mega powercreeped but nobody bothers to release the cards. 

Some weapons/traits/skills were OP years ago and got nerfed into oblivion. Anet style. 

Buffing them to Pre nerf state would be totally fine, often still being underpowered, but nobody bothers to do something. 

Anets Balance style is like maintenance. 

Only do something when you really need to. 

This is why I've been asking for Stability back on Elixir U in PvP.

[shion.2084]

15 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

Right now I'm testing the hammer, and man, this things BREAKS the world. So much damage and defensive utilities. The downside? Risking in melee. Worth.

Other classes like deadeye can destroy you from range. They are supposed to deal less damage than melee, because it's less risk, but they have to manage distance and so. Okay, a fair trade.

And now, what's the point of engi rifle? It's long range damage is BAD. "It's because it has high close-damaging abilities, 2 shotgun and 5 melee jump". Okay, I do them... but they do A LOT LESS DAMAGE than hammer skills. Highest damaging skill (rifle jumsphot) hardly outdamages the WEAKEST hammer skill (electro-whirl) with double the cooldown (both give a defensive utility and a finisher). But then hammer has 3 and 5 that destroys the world while also giving tons of utility... Rifle 2 was supposed to deal high damage if close, but when you compare to melee counterparts, it hurts. And hammer 1 destroys rifle 1 in damage and in boons-conditions.

So... We got rifle with low ranged damage, but if you enter into melee, it deals low melee damage... "It's supposed to deal low melee damage to compensate it can deal ranged damage". But you just entered melee to deal the minimum damage, so you just lost ranged capabilities...

"But it can trigger aim-assisted rocket every 3 seconds spamming projectiles. Rifle is weak because aim-assisted rocket balances it". I thought the same. But hammer with whirl finishers from 2 and using the Shredding gyro can practically also trigger aim-assisted rocket every 3 seconds. And that means it also can get permafury from explosions trait.

"But rifle has a long-range single target knock down and inmobilize". Well, hammer has a 1200-range too AOE stun. That deals tons of AOE damage. And is a lighting field. 

So I'm devastated with rifle state right now. I'm missing something?

Holo's still typically use rifle over hammer.   Rifle is generally a faster weapon and pairs well with the CC burst juggle that holo puts out.  The auto is ranged so you have some answer to scenarios that need a ranged attack if you want to use the holo elite.   At higher levels you'll find rocket charge, which locks you into a long animation with repeated points of non-evade, will be a liability in many scenarios.  You'll literally be one shot and downed in the middle of your rocket charge.   It also takes 1 and 3/4 to activate vs. the much more precise 1 second of rifle's leap which is much easier to use tactically to reposition and is actually a jump.

I prefer hammer cause I use scrapper, it seems like it's an all round superior weapon having blocks and big hits.   Rifle has speed and tactical positioning advantages and is useful with something like holo that can leverage the quick skills it has and combine with static discharge attacks when the opponent is disabled.  It also fills a ranged need if you don' want to take mortar but use the reasonably good holo elite.

When you fight something like a spell breaker... think about all the heavy committed skills hammer forces you into when you don't want to trigger full counter.  Then think about the more precise skills you get to use when having rifle. 

[DarkK.7368]

7 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Holo's still typically use rifle over hammer.   Rifle is generally a faster weapon and pairs well with the CC burst juggle that holo puts out.  The auto is ranged so you have some answer to scenarios that need a ranged attack if you want to use the holo elite.   At higher levels you'll find rocket charge, which locks you into a long animation with repeated points of non-evade, will be a liability in many scenarios.  You'll literally be one shot and downed in the middle of your rocket charge.   It also takes 1 and 3/4 to activate vs. the much more precise 1 second of rifle's leap which is much easier to use tactically to reposition and is actually a jump.

I prefer hammer cause I use scrapper, it seems like it's an all round superior weapon having blocks and big hits.   Rifle has speed and tactical positioning advantages and is useful with something like holo that can leverage the quick skills it has and combine with static discharge attacks when the opponent is disabled.  It also fills a ranged need if you don' want to take mortar but use the reasonably good holo elite.

When you fight something like a spell breaker... think about all the heavy committed skills hammer forces you into when you don't want to trigger full counter.  Then think about the more precise skills you get to use when having rifle. 

I suppose I understimated the wonders of rifle and a rifle scrapper (in my case) can be really effective? Yeah, you are forced to melee with 2 and 5 and for a not-so-big-damage, but after that you can gain distance again to avoid aoe's and enemy attacks... and that mobility can be key in high level plays.

I also did more reasoning, and it's not true that hammer uses aim-assisted rocket that high. 2 can whirl-finish-aim-assisted-rocket, but has a 8s cooldown, and even if I can continue with whirl-gyro, it has another 20s cooldown. And assuming I can constantly combo and track it. Rifle can output with zero mistake a rocket every 3 seconds. Can also have perma fury from the explosions, with hammer will tend to have some non-fury moments. I did some quick match and this aim-assisted-rocket issue can change hammer having nearly triple damage with attack chain, to only 50% more damage. Then, positioning from ranged can have good advantages. Also things you mentioned, like 5 being superior mobility skill than hammer 3, etc.

I'm gonna think about it, but I have some hopes that rifle can be also effective with the right setup. It would just require to juggle with more precision between melee and distance, and I think Scrapper nearly-perma-superspeed can be perfect for this.

EDIT: I also was thinking that the projectile finisher from basic attacks can be something to take into account that hammer doesn't have. It's a shame it's only 20%, but that means it's 1 projectile finisher every 5.5 seconds that hammer doesn't have.

Edited May 8 by DarkK.7368

[shion.2084]

Rifle scrapper is not generally effective.  I was specifically talking about Holo using rifle.

On scrapper it's hard not to favour hammer cause it compounds on the scrappers strengths.  I don't see anyone running rifle scrapper that's near top tier.    I do know someone who triggers aim assisted rocket with the Elixir Gun Kit on scrapper.   That's Alien's build.  But few can pull his setup off well.

[DarkK.7368]

1 minute ago, shion.2084 said:

Rifle scrapper is not generally effective.  I was specifically talking about Holo using rifle.

On scrapper it's hard not to favour hammer cause it compounds on the scrappers strengths.  I don't see anyone running rifle scrapper that's near top tier.    I do know someone who triggers aim assisted rocket with the Elixir Gun Kit on scrapper.   That's Alien's build.  But few can pull his setup off well.

Can you please explain me why holo rifle is strong but not scrapper? What are the sinergies or combos?

[shion.2084]

If we look at holo, it has access to a capable melee kit and in its meta form it has access to photon wall for reflect/anti projectile.  Those are some of the things that hammer provides over rifle.   It can do very nice and quick damage from range with static discharge and surprise shot and  the blind from photon.  If you want you can swap the rifle turret for tool kit which gives another mele block and a pull.

So the combos with it are things like (if you have tool kit), pull, prybar, wrench toolkit, overcharge shot to push away, leap, photon forge CC,  Blind/static discharge on the photon wall toolbelt... leaving you with immob and the leap on photon forge to get away.   Also photon wall if things went south.   Its sort of insane single person damage good for roaming.
 

 

[Langeball.9351]

7 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

Can you please explain me why holo rifle is strong but not scrapper? What are the sinergies or combos?

They already got heavy melee damage in the holo kit, so the lacking damage of rifle isn't that big of a deal. I love the rifle, especially in WvW. Explosive opener + explosion on rifle auto makes for easy vulnerability stacking.

Edited May 9 by Langeball.9351

[DarkK.7368]

Yesterday I did a simple test against the golem. Pretty much only the weapon itself, no utilities. Hammer vs Rifle.

They both got the... same dps. In a perfect scenario where I can land the 4 rockets and the final blast, of course. But this broke me. It seems I understimated the ability of rifle to trigger aim-assisted-rocket every 3 seconds, and causing vulnerability with explosions each second with AA. I also must have understimated blunderbuss in melee range. Even if power damage is pretty normal (almost same as hammer 2), I did not take into account that, with the bleed, its damage doubles and is higher than any hammer skill by itself. And with a lot of might generation, that bleed damages triples.

Of course it won't be meta, but if with enough experience damage can get a lot closer to hammer's, while being able to maintain DPS when hammer cannot (if enemy gets far or I have to focus on stepping out of aoe's), also taking into account 2 and 5 cannot be projectile negated, so counts as melee against projectile hate... seems a good build to invest into. I just have a lot of fun and I can't negate myself that I got to love too much a melee&ranged rifle hahahahaha

[bambi.6214]

Hammer's melee can be easily compensated with ranged kits that are just good damage - mortar and granades. Hammer has aggressive, defensive and utility skills, where most skills do more than 1 of these things.

To complement rifle we'd need a good-damage melee kit with some defensive options, so Tool Kit if it was actually good damage dealer. Rifle has only aggressive and utility skills, with just tiny evade added recently as a defense which is pitiful.

Shield is another good weapon to look at, althought offers only 2 skills, both are fantastic for both utility and defense. If we could limit rifle to autoattack, net shot and jump shot (nerfed to some reasonable degree), rifle/shield combo would easily match hammer. But alas, here we are stuck without one-handed ranged power weapon.

To summarize, hammer is a "complete" weapon offering a wide set of options to do everything, and rifle needs to be heavily compensated with kits and traits to be able to mimic that.

[Gendalfs.7521]

52 minutes ago, DarkK.7368 said:

They both got the... same dps

After reading this I went to test it myself. Relative nummbers to my test dont ask why. So I went with standart power Mech stats just unsummoning my pet. So nummbers: Rifle 15k, hammer 18k, sword pistol 20k.

I agree with previous poster. Hammer has more utility in it. Its evade, reflect and barrier and has combo field and finisher.

Edited May 9 by Gendalfs.7521
Added info

[DarkK.7368]

Just now, Gendalfs.7521 said:

After reading this I went to test it myself. Relative nummbers to my test dont ask why. So I went with standart power Mech stats just unsummoning my pet. So nummbers: Rifle 15k, hammer 18k, sword pistol 20k.

U got explosives trait with aim assisted rocket? Anyway, 15k is super close to 18k, so it's interesting.

 

9 minutes ago, bambi.6214 said:

Hammer's melee can be easily compensated with ranged kits that are just good damage - mortar and granades. Hammer has aggressive, defensive and utility skills, where most skills do more than 1 of these things.

To complement rifle we'd need a good-damage melee kit with some defensive options, so Tool Kit if it was actually good damage dealer. Rifle has only aggressive and utility skills, with just tiny evade added recently as a defense which is pitiful.

Shield is another good weapon to look at, althought offers only 2 skills, both are fantastic for both utility and defense. If we could limit rifle to autoattack, net shot and jump shot (nerfed to some reasonable degree), rifle/shield combo would easily match hammer. But alas, here we are stuck without one-handed ranged power weapon.

To summarize, hammer is a "complete" weapon offering a wide set of options to do everything, and rifle needs to be heavily compensated with kits and traits to be able to mimic that.

Yeah it's hard. Right now using bulwark gyro for 5s projectile block (kinda emulating the projectile reflect and the block), and it's toolbelt for aoe stun like hammer 5. Of course it won't be as good as hammer, because we got range that is an advantage in lot of situations. I'm just satisfied if it's close to hammer, and not like 2-3 times worse than I thought at start. Reading Gendalfs test gave "only" 20% more dps as hammer I'm happier, at least I can work with that 🙂

[Gendalfs.7521]

Rifle ranged skills are only 134. 4 has condi removal wich is nice, but 2 and 5 is melee with 5 has a joke evade and 2 is not enough dmg. Before rifle nerfs skill 1 had triple shot with way more damage, they nerfed it but didnt compensate dmg loss with other skills.

[Dawdler.8521]

Rifle is garbage and I dont think I have ever seen an engineer use the hammer in WvW.

[Sirvaleen.1379]

On 5/10/2024 at 12:26 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Rifle is garbage and I dont think I have ever seen an engineer use the hammer in WvW.

'Scuse me ? What the kitten are roaming Scrappers doing on your server ? Are they all seriously on RIFLE ?! You're on NA I guess, 'cause on EU I've seen lot of Hammer Scrappers, myself included.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 minutes ago, Sirvaleen.1379 said:

'Scuse me ? What the kitten are roaming Scrappers doing on your server ? Are they all seriously on RIFLE ?! You're on NA I guess, 'cause on EU I've seen lot of Hammer Scrappers, myself included.

People barely run scrapper anymore after all the nerfs and those that do only have one main weapon - the grenade kit. I’ve seen more holos than scrappers for over a year now probably and even that is a rare sight among the meta.

[Sirvaleen.1379]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

People barely run scrapper anymore after all the nerfs and those that do only have one main weapon - the grenade kit. I’ve seen more holos than scrappers for over a year now probably and even that is a rare sight among the meta.

Oh I wasn't saying there were that many Scrappers roaming around. AFAIK Engineer is not amongst the meta for roaming at all, and Holo is the favorite choice when players do choose to come with Engis for that. What completely stupefied me was that I thought you said you were seeing Engineers roaming around without ever using a hammer.

I won't contradict the part about the grenade kit since I've posted many rants about it already. DE's only answer was to give us a support SB. The grenade kit will stay as the non-healers Engi's second weapon set. Forever.

[shion.2084]

On 5/13/2024 at 9:06 AM, Sirvaleen.1379 said:

Oh I wasn't saying there were that many Scrappers roaming around. AFAIK Engineer is not amongst the meta for roaming at all, and Holo is the favorite choice when players do choose to come with Engis for that. What completely stupefied me was that I thought you said you were seeing Engineers roaming around without ever using a hammer.

I won't contradict the part about the grenade kit since I've posted many rants about it already. DE's only answer was to give us a support SB. The grenade kit will stay as the non-healers Engi's second weapon set. Forever.

meta holo doesn't use grenade kit now typically.  They rely on static discharge and quick toolbelt traits.

[Kuma.1503]

Rifle mech became OP for a few patches

The community took massive collective psychic damage. Forums and reddit became a dumpster fire of nerf posts. 

ANet butchered Rifle. No one dares buff again it because of PTSD. 

Thank you for attending my brief history lesson.