warrior trait lines slowly turning into the same thing(pvp) and over complicated traits

[Lighter.5631]

Targeted for PvP, as the strength changes are "supposed" to be PvP focused.

 

defense and strength are turning into the same trait line.

why there's no speciality anymore.

defense is the best damage line, because warrior can't do damage without resistance, but why defense, a sustain line, get resistance?....

and now, they are adding resistance to strength line AND buffing might makes right healing, which is basically a pseudo adrenal health (heal ticks) (the only traits pvp warrior use and Aggressive Onslaught still completely pointless)

now both trait lines, tick heals and do damage? but defense line will still do better damage, because higher resistance uptime..because resistance on heal is garbage

what's funny is that why defense has a trillion damage modifier traits, and one also competes with dodge on resistance which is required to deal damage.

Please give resistance on dodge to strength line, and make defense an actual self-defense line. we don't want every trait lines to do the same thing, because when every trait line does the same thing, there will be no diversity.

 

And new Martial Cadence basically forces Fast Hands at this point...It's like if you take Martial Cadence, you need to take discipline, or else it's pointless. (why is Fast Hands still not base line, literally every thing is balanced around it)

Also like either Shout heal will always be better because shout heal, or martial cadence completely deletes shout heal and PS, because they all do the same thing(heal/give might)

 

and heigthened focus? It gives quickness and reset burst skill when you strike an enemy below 50% HP, but also increase healing power when hit with burst skill?

like why is  it so all over the place...

and you still refuse to give warrior quickness on weapon swap on discipline..

 

Like there's not a single vision i see, it's just like random BS.

Idk why anet just refuse to rework actual warrior skills, instead of just completely overload every single traits with fackery and make every single trait line does the same thing.

like strength should be optimal for damage, arms should be crit damage+condi damage, defense should be self sustain, tactic should be support, discipline should be mechanic boosts.

now every single trait line does damage, heal and boost on burst skill..

core power warrior taking tactic or defense literally make no difference whatso ever, because both heal and does damage..just like strength..

 

if it's other classes, all of these, burst skill buffs (berserker power, burst precision, adrenal heal) would have been rolled into a single discipline trait..

Edited May 25 by Lighter.5631

[Lighter.5631]

Like dodge on resistance fit perfectly into strength line as it is also a dodge themed trait line

which resistance is also an offensive boon, that actually allows warrior to actually deal damage.

 

and you say you work on less used traits, might makes right is not less used traits.

look at Body blow, not a single soul in any mode uses this thing.

and guess what, Arms is still kitten, because it does not self heal like every other traits, that also does damage.

 

and i'm so tried of having to hit with burst skill in order to gain certain effects/buffs..there's 0 consistency and longbow can proc as long as the skill is triggered...

the entire class has no consistency and no clear vision, just random BS thrown where ever devs want.

Edited May 25 by Lighter.5631

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Lighter.5631 said:

Like dodge on resistance fit perfectly into strength line as it is also a dodge themed trait line

which resistance is also an offensive boon, that actually allows warrior to actually deal damage.

 

and you say you work on less used traits, might makes right is not less used traits.

look at Body blow, not a single soul in any mode uses this thing.

and guess what, Arms is still kitten, because it does not self heal like every other traits, that also does damage.

 

and i'm so tried of having to hit with burst skill in order to gain certain effects/buffs..there's 0 consistency and longbow can proc as long as the skill is triggered...

the entire class has no consistency and no clear vision, just random BS thrown where ever devs want.

You raise lots of good points. 

 

The short answer to your questions is: because discipline is mandatory. Therefore, effectively, you only have one trait line to add to your build (elite spec + discipline+ X). That means, in order to be viable, that one trait line needs to do everything else. Usually, that entails sustain and some form of offense; hence the popularity of the defense and strength trait lines. 

And, contrary to popular belief, it's not just fast hands that makes discipline mandatory. It's also the adrenaline gain on weapon swap and the ability to conserve adrenaline via burst mastery. Warrior is simply crippled without the ability to quickly and consistently generate adrenaline and to conserve it so that it can use its burst skills consistently. (Warriors Sprint helps a lot too, but it is becoming less mandatory now that there are so many sources of resistance).

One of the most interesting things about Bladesworn (IMO) is that it is the only warrior spec that does not depend on discipline. It has the benefit of using two whole trait lines--a novel experience! It can do this because a) flow generates passively, and the bladesworn minor traits further promote flow generation, and b) because gunsaber (despite its numerous flaws) is a halfway decent weapon that you can reasonably spend 10 seconds on.

If warrior had alternative ways to generate adrenaline consistently and had better weapons that it didn't feel terrible to use for 10 straight seconds, discipline would be less mandatory and there would be a great deal of more build diversity. Then you could have trait lines that actually have an identity rather than needing to be a mashup of sustain and damage traits to be viable.

[Myror.7521]

@Lighter.5631 Actually i personaly like these Changes ^^. Lower cooldown on fury and more selfhealing on might makes right will straight up buff the old Greatsword/Dagger,Shield Strength warr. (PvP) 

While you mentioned it here. There is actually also a very decent way to use aggressive onslaught which would be played in this kind of Version of the old above mentioned build.

The new heightended Focus and matrial cadance will kind of help the supp warr in PvE when u going for the non shout healing version of this build. This way u will be able grant ur teammates nearly perma stabi while not loosing too mutch of Teams healing.

Edited May 25 by Myror.7521

[Zekent.3652]

Because warr is not playable without some sustain traitlinte, we're all forced to always run the same traits with specs spec/discipline/sustain traitline, warrior without sustain is just a free candy for any other class, in a game where everyone has everything, you can't even have fun as "one-shot" gunflame because other classes are able to deal the same or more damage while also having a bunch of resources to counter warrior, AND good sustain.

 

Edited May 25 by Zekent.3652

[Lighter.5631]

6 hours ago, Zekent.3652 said:

Because warr is not playable without some sustain traitlinte

 

that is why warrior needs changes in their skills in order for that to become untrue, classes are able to play without their sustain heal tick line, which is why aggressive onslaught will never ever be played. warrior does not have any space to take offensive trait at all.

what other classses have is like short burst of assurance, like engi has blind when engage so it covers their burst time frame, or you have thief etc which is teleport in so enemy's time to react is their window of assurance, or you have like mesmer that can filtering instant CC to cover their attack window or ranger with pet chain/stealth.

warrior has nothing, you walk up to enemy and cast slow animation and walk away while completely exposed to all damage..this is the number 1 reason why warrior can not take offensive trait, what fascinates me is that dev decide to ramp up base damage/defensive line damage, so warrior can "do damage"..and be more stuck to defensive lines..

also not just make every single trait line act the same thing, then it would be cannibalization, and they would just all become the same category and you would just pick the best one and never touch the rest.

[Lighter.5631]

Also just tested strength in current game state.

increase heal tick won't matter, warrior does not have ways to do damage without exploding, like i mentioned above, which is why warrior is stuck to resistance and defense sustain.

slight increase in heal tick and dodges won't change the fact how warrior takes a trillion pressure/damage before even touching the enemy. you basically explode in team fight, and in 1v1 you may win, but has 0 way to deal with plus pressure, with strength line.

which is also why warrior is stuck at side ndoer, you need to wait for enemy to come to you. you can't engage, or else you just explode mid way while taking trillion damage.

you have to wait for enemy to contest your point...thus making offensive traits impossible, as these traits require you to engage first, which is impossible for warrior.

[StraightPath.3972]

On 5/25/2024 at 6:09 AM, Lighter.5631 said:

And new Martial Cadence basically forces Fast Hands at this point...It's like if you take Martial Cadence, you need to take discipline, or else it's pointless. (why is Fast Hands still not base line, literally every thing is balanced around it)

Gross exaggeration, but an understandable one. On the surface it may seem so, but is far from truth.
In reality frequency of of Martial Cadence procs is only barely affected by having Fast Hands.

The real change here is that you can opt for triggering Cadence in regular 5s intervals, rather than
going for back to back casts (pre weapon swap and right after) that non-Discipline warriors will need to keep up.

The only hard advantage in terms of frequency is at the very start of a fight where Fast hands warrior can sneak in 3 casts in first 11s or so,
vs two casts from a regular one. After that there's very little difference. And by default you don't go support warrior for short fights that end in seconds..

Edited May 28 by StraightPath.3972

[Lighter.5631]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:44 AM, StraightPath.3972 said:

Gross exaggeration, but an understandable one. On the surface it may seem so, but is far from truth.
In reality frequency of of Martial Cadence procs is only barely affected by having Fast Hands.

The real change here is that you can opt for triggering Cadence in regular 5s intervals, rather than
going for back to back casts (pre weapon swap and right after) that non-Discipline warriors will need to keep up.

The only hard advantage in terms of frequency is at the very start of a fight where Fast hands warrior can sneak in 3 casts in first 11s or so,
vs two casts from a regular one. After that there's very little difference. And by default you don't go support warrior for short fights that end in seconds..

? what are you even talking about.

marching order has ICD of 10 seconds, Martial Cadence reset is pointless because weapon swap is 10 seconds, it only breaks the ICD when paired with fast hand

it is literally factual truth.

"The real change here is that you can opt for triggering Cadence in regular 5s intervals" only by using FAST HAND and what makes my statement different from yours that makes it "far from the truth"

like what?

is having no fast hand makes reset pointless? yes, so that's it. like what are you even yapping about.

wether having a funtional reset or a non functional reset make any differences is literally an entirely different topic, that also differs from game modes. so your entire comment seems completely off focus in every way possible.

Edited June 2 by Lighter.5631

[StraightPath.3972]

1. 5 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

? what are you even talking about.

marching order has ICD of 10 seconds, Martial Cadence reset is pointless because weapon swap is 10 seconds, it only breaks the ICD when paired with fast hand

it is literally factual truth.

"The real change here is that you can opt for triggering Cadence in regular 5s intervals" and what makes my statement different from yours that makes it "far from the truth"

like what?

is having no fast hand makes reset pointless? yes, so that's it. like what are you even yapping about.

wether having a funtional reset or a non functional reset make any differences is literally an entirely different point.

Well I'll be very happy to elaborate -  right here and now.
Let's do this with a simple example. Two warriors using Martial Cadence - One with Discipline, one without.


Discipline Warrior:
In terms of using Soldier's Focus the plan is simple:
Swap weapons off cooldown (5s),  giving it a reset, burst to proc it.
So on average two procs withing a 10s time frame.


Non Discipline Warrior:
10 seconds is both the natural cooldown for Soldier's Focus and the Weapon Swap.
So assuming we burst a.s.a.p. after a weapon swap, if the swap is back,  Soldier's Focus is back up in less than a second.

So you just give it that extra half a second (or near that) and burst the moment it pops back up.
Only after that you swap weapons, resetting SF cooldown and going for a burst on new weapon for
two back to back procs. Let's say this is roughly 2 casts per 12 seconds.

Discipline Warrior does indeed edge out a win here, but it's not a crushing victory as you can see.
Ofc this is just theory without very critical info, such as if there will be icd on the trait and how big.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

27 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

Well I'll be very happy to elaborate -  right here and now.
Let's do this with a simple example. Two warriors using Martial Cadence - One with Discipline, one without.


Discipline Warrior:
In terms of using Soldier's Focus the plan is simple:
Swap weapons off cooldown (5s),  giving it a reset, burst to proc it.
So on average two procs withing a 10s time frame.


Non Discipline Warrior:
10 seconds is both the natural cooldown for Soldier's Focus and the Weapon Swap.
So assuming we burst a.s.a.p. after a weapon swap, if the swap is back,  Soldier's Focus is back up in less than a second.

So you just give it that extra half a second (or near that) and burst the moment it pops back up.
Only after that you swap weapons, resetting SF cooldown and going for a burst on new weapon for
two back to back procs. Let's say this is roughly 2 casts per 12 seconds.

Discipline Warrior does indeed edge out a win here, but it's not a crushing victory as you can see.
Ofc this is just theory without very critical info, such as if there will be icd on the trait and how big.

 

Now do that with Relic of the Warrior equipped.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

34 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

Well I'll be very happy to elaborate -  right here and now.
Let's do this with a simple example. Two warriors using Martial Cadence - One with Discipline, one without.


Discipline Warrior:
In terms of using Soldier's Focus the plan is simple:
Swap weapons off cooldown (5s),  giving it a reset, burst to proc it.
So on average two procs withing a 10s time frame.


Non Discipline Warrior:
10 seconds is both the natural cooldown for Soldier's Focus and the Weapon Swap.
So assuming we burst a.s.a.p. after a weapon swap, if the swap is back,  Soldier's Focus is back up in less than a second.

So you just give it that extra half a second (or near that) and burst the moment it pops back up.
Only after that you swap weapons, resetting SF cooldown and going for a burst on new weapon for
two back to back procs. Let's say this is roughly 2 casts per 12 seconds.

Discipline Warrior does indeed edge out a win here, but it's not a crushing victory as you can see.
Ofc this is just theory without very critical info, such as if there will be icd on the trait and how big.

 

That's an interesting take. We'll have to see how it is actually implemented, of course, but I would imagine that the 10s ICD of SF would be reset every time SF is consumed.

Example:

1)SF is up. You proc it with a burst skill. SF is consumed; 10s ICD starts.

2) You swap weapons; Martial Cadence resets SF. the 10s ICD is cancelled because SF is active again.

3) You proc SF with another burst skill. The 10s ICD starts again.

If this is how it works, you won't get the back-to-back SF procs like you described.  Again, we'll have to see how it is actually implemented.

[StraightPath.3972]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Now do that with Relic of the Warrior equipped.

Yes, thanks to certain someone *cough, cough* I am well aware of this issue.
But I don't think a-net will just let that trait run wild without any kind of icd on it.

Then again i'm not assuming it would be as brutal as 9s, like on untamed's support trait...

[StraightPath.3972]

3 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

That's an interesting take. We'll have to see how it is actually implemented, of course, but I would imagine that the 10s ICD of SF would be reset every time SF is consumed.

Example:

1)SF is up. You proc it with a burst skill. SF is consumed; 10s ICD starts.

2) You swap weapons; Martial Cadence resets SF. the 10s ICD is cancelled because SF is active again.

3) You proc SF with another burst skill. The 10s ICD starts again.

If this is how it works, you won't get the back-to-back SF procs like you described.  Again, we'll have to see how it is actually implemented.

I don't see where your version and mine conflict here.
Yes the way it goes is as you described, hence the estimation of the whole cycle being around 12s for two casts.

Here's how i think the cycle will look:

0s -> SF is up, burst to proc it
0.75s -> burst connected, SF cd starts.
10.75s - SF is back up again, burst again
11.5s - burst lands, along with the proc.
12s - weapon swapped, back to square one  (0 seconds).

Edited June 2 by StraightPath.3972

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

35 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

I don't see where your version and mine conflict here.
Yes the way it goes is as you described, hence the estimation of the whole cycle being around 12s for two casts.

Here's how i think the cycle will look:

0s -> FC is up, burst to proc it
0.75s -> burst connected, FC cd starts.
10.75s - FC is back up again, burst again
11.5s - burst lands, along with the proc.
12s - weapon swapped, back to square one  (0 seconds).

Ah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that would work in theory (although I bet it would be really clunky to play around that in a real-world scenario).  The build using discipline will benefit from much greater flexibility and reliability under real-world conditions, but you're right; the theoretical ceiling for discipline builds and non-discipline builds would be similar.

[Leo G.4501]

On 5/25/2024 at 12:09 AM, Lighter.5631 said:

 

now every single trait line does damage, heal and boost on burst skill..

core power warrior taking tactic or defense literally make no difference whatso ever, because both heal and does damage..just like strength..

 

if it's other classes, all of these, burst skill buffs (berserker power, burst precision, adrenal heal) would have been rolled into a single discipline trait..

I thought that was the directive of the 3-tier traitline system coined back at the start when transitioning from the old "mix and match from up to 5 trait lines with points" to "pick 3 lines and then 3 tiers per line".  Basically, the line would have 3 kinds of focus: an offense, a utility and a defense tier. Now I couldn't tell you if that has held up across all professions since I've only even bothered playing Ranger and Warrior in the past 4 years, but I just figured that was the intended end goal.  It just so happens the devs started getting lazy with those offence, utility and defense options when making changes to Warrior (probably because Warrior starts with 'W' thus is last alphabetically and thus is last when dishing out balance patches...I mean, just watch any of their balance patch streams, they always run out of steam by the time they reach the end which is always 'W' lol). It's often times passive healing or boons on burst or something basic.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

55 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

I thought that was the directive of the 3-tier traitline system coined back at the start when transitioning from the old "mix and match from up to 5 trait lines with points" to "pick 3 lines and then 3 tiers per line".  Basically, the line would have 3 kinds of focus: an offense, a utility and a defense tier. Now I couldn't tell you if that has held up across all professions since I've only even bothered playing Ranger and Warrior in the past 4 years, but I just figured that was the intended end goal.  It just so happens the devs started getting lazy with those offence, utility and defense options when making changes to Warrior (probably because Warrior starts with 'W' thus is last alphabetically and thus is last when dishing out balance patches...I mean, just watch any of their balance patch streams, they always run out of steam by the time they reach the end which is always 'W' lol). It's often times passive healing or boons on burst or something basic.

 

 

And then this time they start with warrior and breeze through it...