Longbow (no Daze), Short Bow (yes Daze), Marksmanship (Longbow and Moment of Clarity Trait)

[Swagger.1459]

Would seem that Moment of Clarity - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) would be more useful in the Skirmishing - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) since Longbow does not have a Daze (hard Condition) on any of the skills, but Short Bow does. 

Longbow - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Short bow - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Marksmanship - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

[Beddo.1907]

And Shortbow is a condi weapon that doesn't benefit that much from AoO, while Longbow does.

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

Remember, just because a specialization called Marksman doesn't mean its exclusive to just range weapons. Moment of Clarity is a very power trait that increase Stun and Daze Duration by 50%. This means, weapons like Mace, Hammer, great-sword, war-horn, and  anything with a leap finisher through a Lightning field benefits from this trait.  This is especially potent when paired up with remorseless & Relic Of the midnight king, allowing you to practically get a 100% Crit after a CC.

 

If you want to be over board with the stun/daze duration, throw a paralyzation sigil + mesmer rune and laugh. Go Asura for more giggles with racial trait daze at 1200.

Wanna make it funnier, go druid, go put everything mention + draining sigil. Watch your CC interrupt people and do 1.8k dmg 😄

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I dislike MoC because everything will stunbreak it--the parallel to this was Ancient Seeds with increased bleed duration / expertise, it was great damage on paper but had limited practical application due to cleanses.

What they could do is instead add it to LoF.  Benefits shortbow and allows you to take warhorn with sword, dagger, or mace MH (if you really want to go crazy with stuns at expense of mobility).  

Marks is just kind of trash tier at the moment if not for Midnight King.  Opening strike has always been gimmicky and with all the nerfs to LB and now maces, it's just...bleh.  With spear it really needs a rework of some sort, maybe more of the traits benefit stealth attacks or something.  

[Swagger.1459]

12 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

And Shortbow is a condi weapon that doesn't benefit that much from AoO, while Longbow does.

Yes, short bow is a condition weapon with the hard Condition Daze and Stun attached to a skill (unlike Longbow), so do you feel it could make sense to move MoC to support that? And if anything, short bow could maybe use a little help. Even decoupling the AoO and the Daze/Stun functions would be a sensible move. 

Moment of Clarity

Gain an attack of opportunity for you and your pet on interrupting a foe. Daze and stun durations that you inflict last longer.
This trait can only grant an attack of opportunity against enemies with defiance bars once per interval.

 

Concussion Shot

Daze your foe with an arrow. Stun them if you hit from behind or from the side or if your foe is defiant.

Edited June 11 by Swagger.1459

[Swagger.1459]

9 hours ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Remember, just because a specialization called Marksman doesn't mean its exclusive to just range weapons. Moment of Clarity is a very power trait that increase Stun and Daze Duration by 50%. This means, weapons like Mace, Hammer, great-sword, war-horn, and  anything with a leap finisher through a Lightning field benefits from this trait.  This is especially potent when paired up with remorseless & Relic Of the midnight king, allowing you to practically get a 100% Crit after a CC.

 

If you want to be over board with the stun/daze duration, throw a paralyzation sigil + mesmer rune and laugh. Go Asura for more giggles with racial trait daze at 1200.

Wanna make it funnier, go druid, go put everything mention + draining sigil. Watch your CC interrupt people and do 1.8k dmg 😄

I understand, just seems a bit odd to have a daze and stun improvement trait in a line that has weapons without a daze or stun function. But that's just me.  

[Beddo.1907]

3 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Yes, short bow is a condition weapon with the hard Condition Daze and Stun attached to a skill (unlike Longbow), so do you feel it could make sense to move MoC to support that? And if anything, short bow could maybe use a little help. Even decoupling the AoO and the Daze/Stun functions would be a sensible move. 

Moment of Clarity

Gain an attack of opportunity for you and your pet on interrupting a foe. Daze and stun durations that you inflict last longer.
This trait can only grant an attack of opportunity against enemies with defiance bars once per interval.

 

Concussion Shot

Daze your foe with an arrow. Stun them if you hit from behind or from the side or if your foe is defiant.

We really don't need any changes that mess up multiple weapons to account for minimal parts of two.
Also Marksmanship is not Longbow only traitline.

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

5 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

I understand, just seems a bit odd to have a daze and stun improvement trait in a line that has weapons without a daze or stun function. But that's just me.  

I mean, its the same for maces Tbh with ambidextrous. COndi trait for a power weapon 😕

[Gotejjeken.1267]

17 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Also Marksmanship is not Longbow only traitline.

I mean, it kinda is, especially with Lead the Wind specifically proc'ing on PBS now.

Marks was always made for LB/GS, was assumed you'd run Marks/BM/X; they just never changed it after all the power creep / nerfs to Ranger one-shot builds.  

[Zyreva.1078]

40 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I mean, it kinda is, especially with Lead the Wind specifically proc'ing on PBS now.

Marks was always made for LB/GS, was assumed you'd run Marks/BM/X; they just never changed it after all the power creep / nerfs to Ranger one-shot builds.  

There have been many Marks builds without longbow and many longbow builds without Marks - throughout all the years. Saying Marks is a LB specific traitline because of one single LB trait is like claiming BM is "GS and axe only".

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

There have been many Marks builds without longbow and many longbow builds without Marks - throughout all the years. Saying Marks is a LB specific traitline because of one single LB trait is like claiming BM is "GS and axe only".

I don't care about bad builds or whatever people use the different traitlines to do.  

Marksmanship is even in the name; it was made for bows.  

[Zyreva.1078]

I'm not talking about bad builds. Every single good marks build used that traitline primarily for it's synergy with GS and/or pet burst. Some of those builds (but not all) use LB as secondary weapon. For builds that use LB as primary offensive tool (such as various "sic'em sniper" builds in WvW) skirm or WS have always been the better choice over Marks.

The lb trait itself is the only bad thing about Marks and it's the only GM trait in that line that never saw any use in any good build in any game mode- regardless of weapons used.

The name of traitlines (or traits/skills) is hardly relevant. In practice Marks is as far from a "lb only traitline" as it gets and it has been like that since forever.

Edited June 12 by Zyreva.1078

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

The lb trait itself is the only bad thing about Marks and it's the only GM trait in that line that never saw any use in any good build in any game mode- regardless of weapons used.

Opening strike as a concept is awful

Hunter's Gaze/Stoneform are awful

Brutish Seals is bad outside of Midnight King synergy, signets you also use to setup longbow burst (like Signet of Hunt)

Farsighted is bad now that they nerfed longbow burst builds (not that it was super great to begin with), no one uses that for Axe or Shortbow

Lead the Wind, yes, is terrible

There are a LOT of bad things about marks--you even said it, any 'good' marks build is used with its GS synergy, and 99% of time that was LB/GS, especially when the traitline was created.  LB is also not a secondary weapon in those builds, GS is.  Seriously what 'good' power build prior to M/M, sword overhaul, etc. used marks and wasn't LB/GS?

Marks is terribad, only reason it used recently with M/M is again, Midnight King relic.  

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Opening strike as a concept is awful

In combination with remorseless it's what makes the traitline worth using.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Hunter's Gaze/Stoneform are awful

Outclassed by CB, but not useless.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Brutish Seals is bad outside of Midnight King synergy, signets you also use to setup longbow burst (like Signet of Hunt)

What synergy are you talking about? The relic triggers on cc, no? And the trait has nothing to do with cc or anything the relic does (I assume you mean synergy with remorseless? - because that's the only one that would make sense in this context, and having synergies like that within a traitline is hardly a bad thing.).

SotH is used to setup any burst, not just LB.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Farsighted is bad now that they nerfed longbow burst builds (not that it was super great to begin with), no one uses that for Axe or Shortbow

Free dmg mod, commonly used in PvE, regardless of weapons. In PvP you'd usually use one of the other traits, even with LB. Also what lb nerfs are you talking about? Most (all?) nerfs targeted melee burst.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Lead the Wind, yes, is terrible

At least we agree on something.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Seriously what 'good' power build prior to M/M, sword overhaul, etc. used marks and wasn't LB/GS?

Core ranger, when it was meta. A few builds that weren't meta, but still decent at times such as staff/GS power druid. LB builds that were anywhere close to "meta" at those times were typically not using marks (such as the old pre HoT "shoutbow" build or various sic'em sniper builds during PoF times).

Marks GS/LB only became meta with Untamed and that one has been primarily about the melee/port/pet burst (and those aspects are also what have been nerfed, not LB).

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Marks is terribad, only reason it used recently with M/M is again, Midnight King relic.  

I wouldn't call something that is used in decent builds "terribad". It's like calling cele builds bad because "it's only good because of cele". If something is good it's good regardless of why it's good.

But regardless, absolutely nothing of what you said classifies marks as "lb only" traitline.

Edited June 13 by Zyreva.1078

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

In combination with remorseless it's what makes the traitline worth using.

Right, which is why I consider it an awful concept, when you have to take a GM to use the main mechanic of the entire traitline.  

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

What synergy are you talking about? The relic triggers on cc, no? And the trait has nothing to do with cc or anything the relic does (I assume you mean synergy with remorseless? - because that's the only one that would make sense in this context, and having synergies like that within a traitline is hardly a bad thing.).

Yes, with remorseless.  Get the reset via fury from CC / Midnight King or can get it with Brutish Seals / Signet of Hunt or whatnot.

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I wouldn't call something that is used in decent builds "terribad". It's like calling cele builds bad because "it's only good because of cele". If something is good it's good regardless of why it's good.

It whataboutism.  Like, marks is bad but what about if you use Remorseless to make it good, or what about if you use it with Midnight King, etc.  The line should be good regardless, but Opening Strike makes sure that's not possible.  

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

But regardless, absolutely nothing of what you said classifies marks as "lb only" traitline.

Now it isn't because you can use M/M, Hammer, etc. that have CC's to proc Remorseless and whatnot.  When it was created it was, because LB/GS is such a classic combo they based the entire line around it.  

Why else would they double down and make Lead the Wind literally ONLY proc off PBS? Could have just lowered the threshold to 900 to accommodate the rest of the weapons, no?

[Zyreva.1078]

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It whataboutism.  Like, marks is bad but what about if you use Remorseless to make it good, or what about if you use it with Midnight King, etc.  The line should be good regardless, but Opening Strike makes sure that's not possible. 

I don't think there is a single traitline where you can just pick random traits from and it still is good. That's simply not how the game works. You gotta look for synergies and marks offers those.

Also marks does see some use in PvE and there it's not because of remorseless.

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Now it isn't because you can use M/M, Hammer, etc. that have CC's to proc Remorseless and whatnot.  When it was created it was, because LB/GS is such a classic combo they based the entire line around it. 

It never was. Remorseless builds never had much synergy with LB and you could always replace LB with something else and it would be fine, if not better. GS/staff, GS/sword, GS/axe, heck even GS/SB have all been a thing with remorseless at some point. You could not do the same with GS, until we got more melee (burst) weapons in more recent times, and no, it's not because of LB nerfs - those didn't happen. Honestly, often LB is/was just played because ranger players want to play as archer, not neccessarily because it was the best option.

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Why else would they double down and make Lead the Wind literally ONLY proc off PBS? Could have just lowered the threshold to 900 to accommodate the rest of the weapons, no?

Because it's supposed to be a LB trait. But 1 trait =/= traitline. This is especially true when said trait was never the reason to pick the traitline.

You could argue that it doesn't make much sense to have the LB trait in a traitline that has little synergy with LB, but moving other traits, that are fine as and where they are, elsewhere - like suggested in the first post - is not the way to go. But since LtW is meh, it doesn't matter where it is located, as long there are better GM to pick - like it is the case currently.

Edited June 13 by Zyreva.1078

[Bastrii.3047]

Let's be honest here, a TON of core ranger traits are outright terrible. Look at Skirmishing - Sharpened Edges and Hidden Barbs are one Trait broken down into two. Other Professions get this combo in one trait, but we have to sacrifice two traits to the trait gods just to get both effects. These two abilities should be combined into one one the first row, and a new trait should be added to the second row for damage. If anything I'd argue that Daze/Stun should go in Skirmishing, and then overhaul marksmanship entirely to be less trash. Actually, just overhaul all of the core Ranger to be less abysmal.

Edited June 14 by Bastrii.3047
terminology

[Zyreva.1078]

I agree about the bleed traits, but MoC in Skirm does not make sense and Marks isn't trash. Don't try to fix what isn't broken - chances are high it becomes worse ... (like that stupid "big pet improvement" patch or WS "buffs" that made ranger worse at least in WvW).

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 6/14/2024 at 5:05 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

I agree about the bleed traits, but MoC in Skirm does not make sense and Marks isn't trash. Don't try to fix what isn't broken - chances are high it becomes worse ... (like that stupid "big pet improvement" patch or WS "buffs" that made ranger worse at least in WvW).

How did the WS changes make WvW worse?

The loss of refined toxins / shared anguish was a hit to your average cele condi roamer, but I don't think that's even on their radar as far as balancing.  Things like Survival Instinct / Carnivore were clearly designed for mace/hammer in situations where you can disable multiple people--because everyone keeps complaining how ranger has no place in zergs.

Again, I really hope they add stealth attack buffs or something else into Marks now, it would combo well with new spear and the existing traits there which rely on opening strike.  

 

[Zyreva.1078]

Carnivore does nothing vs multiple targets, because it has an icd and generally zerg builds do not use WS.

Refined Toxins was better for solo/small scale than any of the new traits, so it ends up being a nerf in WvW.

Edited June 15 by Zyreva.1078

[Lazze.9870]

On 6/11/2024 at 5:40 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Marks is just kind of trash tier at the moment if not for Midnight King.  Opening strike has always been gimmicky and with all the nerfs to LB and now maces, it's just...bleh.  With spear it really needs a rework of some sort, maybe more of the traits benefit stealth attacks or something.  

As I've said before, an opening strike refresh on all the GM traits is needed. Lead the Wind is the perfect trait to refresh OS with stealth. The quickness thing it currently has is lame and limited to longbow only.

Or just delete the longbow trait entirely and make piercing default. Make some fun stealth trait out of it, keep the idea of OS refresh.

[Lazze.9870]

On 6/15/2024 at 7:22 PM, Zyreva.1078 said:

Carnivore does nothing vs multiple targets, because it has an icd and generally zerg builds do not use WS.

Refined Toxins was better for solo/small scale than any of the new traits, so it ends up being a nerf in WvW.

The old Refined Toxins wasn't better for solo/small scale than what Survival Instinct is. Condi builds have enough poison sources and are fine without it, power builds hit like wet noodle with WS prior to the changes.

It used to be good way back when you could get away with running WS and still do good damage, because it added poison for free. The way things are now, the damage modifier is way more valueable and makes WS feel a little less worse for power builds. 10 % over 50 % is good, - 10 % + the prot uptime when below 50 % is also good. Plus you have a cleanse option instead for whenever you run into condi builds, which most likely will be doing anyway.

Edited June 26 by Lazze.9870

[Zyreva.1078]

Poison uptime is huge in this very sustainy meta and without RT it takes a noticeable hit. 5-10% more dmg dealt or less dmg taken on a power build that can neither deal enough dmg to threaten cele sustain (even more so without decent poison uptime!) nor outsustain it, is hardly relevant in comparison.

Going power is only worth it when going full glass , so you can at least oneshot other glass builds and inattentive players. Going the bruiser route with power is useless, because cele does the same but much better. The WS changes haven't changed anything about that. Just made it harder to kill other cele builds.

Edited June 26 by Zyreva.1078

[Lazze.9870]

On 6/26/2024 at 1:14 PM, Zyreva.1078 said:

Poison uptime is huge in this very sustainy meta and without RT it takes a noticeable hit. 5-10% more dmg dealt or less dmg taken on a power build that can neither deal enough dmg to threaten cele sustain (even more so without decent poison uptime!) nor outsustain it, is hardly relevant in comparison.

Going power is only worth it when going full glass , so you can at least oneshot other glass builds and inattentive players. Going the bruiser route with power is useless, because cele does the same but much better. The WS changes haven't changed anything about that. Just made it harder to kill other cele builds.

Sigh..

1. Condi ranger is loaded with poison. It doesn't need Refined Toxinins for poison uptime. It never did. It made the uptime easier, but it was never a must trait to run. Especially not with Demon Queen as well. Add a doom sigil if you're somehow still struggling with it.

2. Refined Toxins WAS at its best when you could afford running WS power builds and add free poison to your build to fight sustain builds. That was where the trait really shined. It freed up the "need" to run doom sigil on power builds which a lot of builds did back then.

3. We do see WS being used for power builds in PvP because there aren't any kitten celestial builds running around. Survival Instinct has made WS feel decent again for power in PvP. 

"5-10% more dmg dealt or less dmg taken on a power build that can neither deal enough dmg to threaten cele sustain (even more so without decent poison uptime!) nor outsustain it, is hardly relevant in comparison."

It's relevant against other power builds. You don't run it against cele builds. Does that mean I recommend running WS on a power build in WvW? No. I recommend full glass power builds. But power WS is absolutely useable against the right matchup. 

It's also a decent option for cele ranger if you know you're gonna run into glass cannons. Protection, Oakheart Salve and Surival Instinct adds up to some pretty decent power damage reduction.

Edited Friday at 07:03 PM by Lazze.9870