Phoenix Protocol should not force displacement for Alacrity application

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Assassine.1958 said:

Why bringing Willbender, if you could bring:

• Dragonhunter for PowerDPS (OP F3 block free for all, good area healing F2, good dmg + cc)
• Firebrand Quickness (wide range of offensive support, good dmg, can take some optional utilities like Sanctuary, Stability, ... , a bit of group sustain via. F2, F3)
• Firebrand CondiDPS (good dmg, can bring a bit of sustain to the group via. F2, F3 and/or one optional utility skill / Elite Stability-Mantra)

As I said, it's my personal opinion. But there are many better options for the guardian spec to be part in a PvE comb instead of Willbender.

It's a bit off the main topic, but willbender does fairly well as a solo build, and in group content, it's the highest-benching DPS option in both categories (granted, benching isn't everything). There are also times in open world where it's nice to have the mobility.

 

17 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

This. Alac willbender was initially for it and itself only. Eventually the devs decided on group alac willbender being a thing. That's draxynnic's point. Even I know this because I was around during EoD betas. 
This isn't about the devs not knowing how to design elite specs; this is the case of development. Another great example of this: the devs also decided whether Specter should give alacrity or quickness, so they added both options to it in the betas, then after beta 1, they picked alacrity as its special role. Though, ironically, to this day, Endless Night still provides quickness in WvW and PvP, but Shadestep has alacrity in PvE.
 

What's really quirky about willbender is not the alacrity application per hit, but that you're tied to virtues' battle presence trait, regardless of condi, heal, or power roles. F2 has nothing to do with this either. You can work around the mobility. I do feel that alacrity willbender bounces around a lot like alac mirage, so I get the annoyance. You can't tell me that you're not randomly teleporting and creating clones as an alacrity mirage just like alacrity willbender is using f2 virtue to dash and using physical skills. 

At this rate you're better off asking for redesigning Phoenix Protocol because Idk where else alacrity would go and fit so smoothly into the espec.

Pretty much. Alacbender was never really designed, it just happened. Originally, Battle Presence worked the same way for willbender as it does for other guardians, but people pointed out that was a bit weird when willbender's Resolve doesn't have a passive, so they made it spread the same benefit that the willbender receives. Which happens to be alac if you're running Phoenix Protocol.

Although I would note that it was generally possible to alacmirage without using Phase Retreat (unless you actually wanted the teleport, or you knew it was safe to do so). Especially since you could swap to Deceptive Evasion in a pinch at a fairly small DPS loss. Can't really speak for how it is now with all the nerfs.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Assassine.1958 said:

In my opinion: Willbender is a poorly designed spec for PvE in general! It's only useful in competitive modes like PvP/WvW.

Why bringing Willbender, if you could bring:

• Dragonhunter for PowerDPS (OP F3 block free for all, good area healing F2, good dmg + cc)
• Firebrand Quickness (wide range of offensive support, good dmg, can take some optional utilities like Sanctuary, Stability, ... , a bit of group sustain via. F2, F3)
• Firebrand CondiDPS (good dmg, can bring a bit of sustain to the group via. F2, F3 and/or one optional utility skill / Elite Stability-Mantra)

As I said, it's my personal opinion. But there are many better options for the guardian spec to be part in a PvE comb instead of Willbender.

Fine, you can play Willbender on Condi or PowerDPS, but guardian has this option since PoF.

For Willbender being useful in PvE: 

• Take a look at Firebrand Virtue/Tome-Kit -> It is kind of a standalone-kit and it does not matter which other traitlines you are using, except for the passive effects! So redesign Willbender Virtues for more flexibility without the Virtues-traitline.
• Redesign some Physical-Skills + one additional trait for boons or what ever.

 

Willbenders perform quite well in most PvE modes. In OW they're fast, mobile, and can maintain high DPS while giving themselves more sustain than both FB or DH. In group content they can be played quite well as either power, condi, or hybrid dps with higher damage output than all other guardian specs too. 

It's only really in support roles that they struggle due to a) forced movement that many players find janky, inefficient, or unnecessary, b) the need to hit targets which has some forced downtime for sharing boons, and c) their healing output is a bit low.

Yes, FB is still king of support for all game modes among guardians, but it's falling behind other professions due to limited mantra range.

[Assassine.1958]

[deleted]

Edited June 15 by Assassine.1958

[Assassine.1958]

30 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Willbenders perform quite well in most PvE modes. In OW they're fast, mobile, and can maintain high DPS while giving themselves more sustain than both FB or DH. In group content they can be played quite well as either power, condi, or hybrid dps with higher damage output than all other guardian specs too. 

In terms of DPS I have to agree, but you don't need that much mobility in most of the instanced PvE except some of the "newer" stuff.

30 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It's only really in support roles that they struggle due to a) forced movement that many players find janky, inefficient, or unnecessary, b) the need to hit targets which has some forced downtime for sharing boons, and c) their healing output is a bit low.

In general, I agree to your points. But Willbender has insane Benchmarks and I personally think it should only focus on dps / boondps and not heal / boonheal.

Also I have to mention, that the "do as much hits as you can" on an active virtue is just a poor/bad design! I mean you have to spam F1 every ~8 secs to maintain dmg, same for the other 2 virtues. So that was my point when I said Willbender needs a redesign of its virtues!

30 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yes, FB is still king of support for all game modes among guardians, but it's falling behind other professions due to limited mantra range.

That's sadly true, but I think a player could handle the mantra range, but yeah sometimes a 360 radius for quickness would be awesome!
 

Edited June 15 by Assassine.1958

[Gaiawolf.8261]

30 minutes ago, Assassine.1958 said:

In terms of DPS I have to agree, but you don't need that much mobility in most of the instanced PvE except some of the "newer" stuff.

In general, I agree to your points. But Willbender has insane Benchmarks and I personally think it should only focus on dps / boondps and not heal / boonheal.

Also I have to mention, that the "do as much hits as you can" on an active virtue is just a poor/bad design! I mean you have to spam F1 every ~8 secs to maintain dmg, same for the other 2 virtues. So that was my point when I said Willbender needs a redesign of its virtues!

That's sadly true, but I think a player could handle the mantra range, but yeah sometimes a 360 radius for quickness would be awesome!
 

All fair points.

Mobility is much more useful in OW for getting around and jumping from event to event when mounting up is not an option. Although tbh, I actually prefer FB here due to easier aegis (you can still mount up if an attack is blocked OOC).

Support willbenders just have too much going against them that many players find subpar, problematic, or annoying compared to other options for what it provides. Yeah, these layers add up to a bad, haphazard design.

Similar can be said for mantras. They can't compete with AOE ranges and drive up APM for what they provide compared to other options for most players. It's the same "feel bad" design principles that alacbenders suffer from, just in different ways.

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/14/2024 at 1:42 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

I feel that you are the one who disregards my points. The point is Willbender's F2 Alacrity application zig zagging design most often serves no other purpose other than flavour, and could result negatively. Let's give some examples:

Hammer Heal Alac Bender - F2 out then F1 rush back in for example takes away time from AA chain heal from the symbols. Sure not that much, but the Alac application design clashes with the healing application from AA symbol. If Willbender somehow can apply Alac without the need to move out-move in, it will improve the flow and heal potential.

Whisper of Jormag Chain - An example of boss mechanic where you don't want to zig zag around for any reason.

No other Alac provider have this negative synergy design with other mechanics of the game. The result, Alac Willbender is subpar to other Alac provider.

And flavor/playstyle is -and should remain being- one of the main reasons for the existence of different classes, especs and builds. The point is that wb is intentionally meant to be a mobile (dare I say hypermobile?) multi-hit stacking type of "class". It also doesn't get in the way of playing adps well, at no point you need to keep sticking to the middle of your group, you can move outside of it while remaining in the ranges you need to keep to get and share the effects for/with the group.

On 6/14/2024 at 1:42 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

Again, please stop with this isn't for you, L2P or dislike conversation that you keep bringing up. Yes, I know 450 range of F2 movement and 600 range of alacrity. Yes, there are many weapon skills, F1 and F3 to bring you back to original position. But it is not effective, often interfere with other mechanics and subpar compared to other Alac applicators. This is what makes it a bad design.

Back again to you, you keep ignoring my statement about how Phoenix Protocol is bad compared to other alac traits/alac provider design. Can you point out how the design is good for the purpose of alac application/support?

It is effective if you understand how to use it (and it was already explained how to, it's not exactly hard, it just involves some movement and approximate skill targetting).
"But those other alac providers play differently!" is hardly a valid argument for me. Varying gameplay patterns between classes, especs and builds are here for a reason and should remain being different between each of them. If you dislike how this alac provider plays and prefer how another alac provider plays... the solution here is to play that another alac provider you'll enjoy playing. I don't think there's a good reason to keep homogenizeing gameplay between the classes/specs/builds and I hope anet won't be doing that, because it misses the point of the current possibilities we have. Not everything needs to be semi-passive "stand in the dead center of the safe group 24/7" build. Pick accordingly to your playstyle preferences, don't try to change playstyles based on your picks.

Edited June 15 by Sobx.1758

[phandaria.4891]

 

On 6/15/2024 at 12:49 AM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I was playing around with the idea that Phoenix Protocol could work with F3 instead of F2. This would allow you to GT boon sharing with Courage, which would solve the forced movement problem, but also give willbenders a protection/damage mitigation style of support instead of direct healing, like FF14 sages and scholars.

Possible, and having 1 ammo might be even better so that there's no need for button spam for Alac.

On 6/15/2024 at 12:11 AM, mirage.8046 said:

This. Alac willbender was initially for it and itself only. Eventually the devs decided on group alac willbender being a thing. That's draxynnic's point. Even I know this because I was around during EoD betas. 
This isn't about the devs not knowing how to design elite specs; this is the case of development. Another great example of this: the devs also decided whether Specter should give alacrity or quickness, so they added both options to it in the betas, then after beta 1, they picked alacrity as its special role. Though, ironically, to this day, Endless Night still provides quickness in WvW and PvP, but Shadestep has alacrity in PvE.
 

What's really quirky about willbender is not the alacrity application per hit, but that you're tied to virtues' battle presence trait, regardless of condi, heal, or power roles. F2 has nothing to do with this either. You can work around the mobility. I do feel that alacrity willbender bounces around a lot like alac mirage, so I get the annoyance. You can't tell me that you're not randomly teleporting and creating clones as an alacrity mirage just like alacrity willbender is using f2 virtue to dash and using physical skills. 

At this rate you're better off asking for redesigning Phoenix Protocol because Idk where else alacrity would go and fit so smoothly into the espec.

Yes, the current Phoenix Protocol feels like a slapdash design after Boon generalization mandate for each profession. And redesigning Phoenix Protocol is technically what I am asking.

On 6/15/2024 at 9:54 AM, Ferus.3165 said:

because the f2 has two charges that is not a problem... you will only be inefficient when you either don't have alac anymore but a charge is up or when both charges are up. As long as both charges are not off cd then you don't have to use the f2 and can wait for whatever animation you are doing atm before you use the f2 again.

Yes, the inefficiency is that if you use 2 F2 charges, you are missing the passive effect. Hence the current efficient way to do it is using another skill to leap back in. However, my stance is that leaping out-in, in the first place, is inefficient. I can use the time and resources to do more AA or use the skill for leap finisher for example.

16 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"But those other alac providers play differently!" is hardly a valid argument for me.

I have never said this, and none of my arguments mean something like this.

16 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If you dislike how this alac provider plays and prefer how another alac provider plays... the solution here is to play that another alac provider you'll enjoy playing. I don't think there's a good reason to keep homogenizeing gameplay between the classes/specs/builds and I hope anet won't be doing that, because it misses the point of the current possibilities we have. Not everything needs to be semi-passive "stand in the dead center of the safe group 24/7" build. Pick accordingly to your playstyle preferences, don't try to change playstyles based on your picks.

Again, you misunderstood my point. The current design of Alacrity application is inefficient, because most of the time you don't want/need the 450 dash, you just need the Alacrity boon. I don't have to stand in the dead center of safe group 24/7, I agree, but stop with the dislike or I want Alac Willbender to play the same as other specs. No! I want to play hyper mobile boon/heal boon spec! I get that you like the status quo, but please argue on how the current design is good, instead of that I don't understand how Willbender is supposed to be played or that I prefer other Alac spec. I really don't know how to explain this clearer than I already have.

Every time you leap back in after F2, is a mobility resource wasted that you can use elsewhere! You can use the extra F3/F1/leap skill for boss mechanic or moving to allies to ress them. Alac Willbender will be more mobile if you don't need to move away just to apply Alac in the first place. Every time you leap out and in is a second wasted and can be used to do something else! You can put in more AA chain for Hammer heal. You are wasting leaping out and in because of 450 dash you don't want in the first place for applying Alac. Just because of what? Flavour? Changing this aspect will not make Alac Willbender plays the same as other spec. It will instead streamline the purpose of Phoenix Protocol/Flowing Resolve for Alac application and instead put the time and mobility resources in better use.

Edited June 16 by phandaria.4891

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, phandaria.4891 said:

Possible, and having 1 ammo might be even better so that there's no need for button spam for Alac.

Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about the ammo, but I can't stand spamming ammo skills off CD just for the sake of it. All it does is artificially drive up APM. FB has the same problem with Potence and Flame mantras (and QFB already has really high APM that even the "pros" at SC complain about it). I'd put those 2 mantras at 1 ammo each, but Flowing Resolve does have use for its 2 charges. Maybe boost the boon durations and lower to 1 charge only when Phoenix Protocol is slotted? Hmm, I'd have to ruminate on that one. 🤔

Going off F3 was just an idea I was floating around in my head. I'm not even sure if it's a solution I'd pick, but it is an interesting and different playstyle.

[Saiyan.1704]

19 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And flavor/playstyle is -and should remain being- one of the main reasons for the existence of different classes, especs and builds. The point is that wb is intentionally meant to be a mobile (dare I say hypermobile?) multi-hit stacking type of "class". It also doesn't get in the way of playing adps well, at no point you need to keep sticking to the middle of your group, you can move outside of it while remaining in the ranges you need to keep to get and share the effects for/with the group.

It is effective if you understand how to use it (and it was already explained how to, it's not exactly hard, it just involves some movement and approximate skill targetting).
"But those other alac providers play differently!" is hardly a valid argument for me. Varying gameplay patterns between classes, especs and builds are here for a reason and should remain being different between each of them. If you dislike how this alac provider plays and prefer how another alac provider plays... the solution here is to play that another alac provider you'll enjoy playing. I don't think there's a good reason to keep homogenizeing gameplay between the classes/specs/builds and I hope anet won't be doing that, because it misses the point of the current possibilities we have. Not everything needs to be semi-passive "stand in the dead center of the safe group 24/7" build. Pick accordingly to your playstyle preferences, don't try to change playstyles based on your picks.

I'm going to assume you're talking about WvW alac Willbender here.

I think a lot of the conversations on this thread just wants Alac WB to be better than what it currently is. In PvE open world it doesn't matter play w/e you like to play but when it comes to min/max in spvp (support wb doesnt exist in spvp) or wvw, I feel there's better options for the role. If it's a 10/15/25man blob doing wvw shenanigans, yeah I'll take what I can get but I can't call Alac WB BiS compared to supp mesmer/FB/Druid/etc.

[phandaria.4891]

On 6/15/2024 at 7:21 PM, Assassine.1958 said:

In terms of DPS I have to agree, but you don't need that much mobility in most of the instanced PvE except some of the "newer" stuff.

In general, I agree to your points. But Willbender has insane Benchmarks and I personally think it should only focus on dps / boondps and not heal / boonheal.

Also I have to mention, that the "do as much hits as you can" on an active virtue is just a poor/bad design! I mean you have to spam F1 every ~8 secs to maintain dmg, same for the other 2 virtues. So that was my point when I said Willbender needs a redesign of its virtues!

That's sadly true, but I think a player could handle the mantra range, but yeah sometimes a 360 radius for quickness would be awesome!
 

DPS Willbender has no issue because the skill you spam the most F1, does not displace you. In fact, by changing Alac application, I believe Alac Willbender will play more similar to DPS Willbender than its current design. Yes, PvE content currently does not need that much mobility, but it opens up a different playstyle from the current meta, and possibly different type of encounter/boss design in the future.

"On hit" passive effect of Willbender Virtues is another can of worms! But I still think the 450 dash/Battle Presence should be the priority here. Hence I didn't go further in depth there. Maybe in another thread. 😂

On 6/16/2024 at 8:18 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about the ammo, but I can't stand spamming ammo skills off CD just for the sake of it. All it does is artificially drive up APM. FB has the same problem with Potence and Flame mantras (and QFB already has really high APM that even the "pros" at SC complain about it). I'd put those 2 mantras at 1 ammo each, but Flowing Resolve does have use for its 2 charges. Maybe boost the boon durations and lower to 1 charge only when Phoenix Protocol is slotted? Hmm, I'd have to ruminate on that one. 🤔

Going off F3 was just an idea I was floating around in my head. I'm not even sure if it's a solution I'd pick, but it is an interesting and different playstyle.

Boon application design need to be better worked on nonetheless. The king of boon right now, Quick Herald, does it in 600 range passively. Not that I want Willbender to be like that, Herald is overtuned in my opinion. But there have to be better design that promotes fluid, efficient and synergistic gameplay.

[Ferus.3165]

i think willbender might not be the class for you. Play a different spec or class if you want a different playstyle

[Wryog.5073]

I had a discussion a few weeks ago about how clunky Resolve is in PvE for alacrity providers. One solution that came up was to make Phoenix Protocol cause you to pulse Alacrity while you have stacks of Lethal Tempo. That seemed like a relatively reasonable solution which could also allow for more Alacrity uptime during phase changes/spreads. 

It also gets rid of the dependency on an entire other traitline to actually share the Alacrity.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

So I noticed when watching the livestream for spears that Helio Rush flips over to a second skill to "Stop charging with Helio Rush." Can we get this for F2 Flowing Resolve please? That would pretty much solve the issues with the skill on alacrity support builds.

Can we get this for all movement/charging skills, actually? Seems pretty dumb I can't stop running when I want to. Imagine playing Red Rover with Flowing Resolve. You'd lose every time against someone using Helio Rush!

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/16/2024 at 1:52 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

I have never said this, and none of my arguments mean something like this.

False:

On 6/14/2024 at 1:42 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

The result, Alac Willbender is subpar to other Alac provider.

On 6/13/2024 at 2:35 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

The current design requires players to play Alac Willbender perfectly to simply compete with other Alac providers.

And these quotes, btw, are also untrue, because it's not "subpar" and it doesn't need to be played perfectly. As far as I'm aware, it just needs to not be played terribly.

 

On 6/16/2024 at 1:52 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

Again, you misunderstood my point. The current design of Alacrity application is inefficient, because most of the time you don't want/need the 450 dash, you just need the Alacrity boon. I don't have to stand in the dead center of safe group 24/7, I agree, but stop with the dislike or I want Alac Willbender to play the same as other specs. No! I want to play hyper mobile boon/heal boon spec! I get that you like the status quo, but please argue on how the current design is good, instead of that I don't understand how Willbender is supposed to be played or that I prefer other Alac spec. I really don't know how to explain this clearer than I already have.

You can choose where you dash and you can choose where you start the dash. On top of that, it's extremely easy to either stay on top of the target or come back at the target right away because of the amount of mobility wb and its weaponsets have. The build isn't an issue, the issue is people wanting to stand in the middle of the blob and never move because apparently active gameplay is bad and "inefficient". But it's not.

If you want to play a hyper mobile build then that's exactly what it is and the way it provides alac (use of mobility +stacking hits to generate effects) is 100% in line with wb overal design. I already said that and it remains being true, so I still don't see this as anything problematic. Meanwhile now you're saying you want to play a hypemobile boon spec, after you repeatedly presented not wanting to move around or use the dashes to generate the effects. I don't see how that's supposed to make sense.

On 6/16/2024 at 1:52 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

Every time you leap back in after F2, is a mobility resource wasted that you can use elsewhere! You can use the extra F3/F1/leap skill for boss mechanic or moving to allies to ress them. Alac Willbender will be more mobile if you don't need to move away just to apply Alac in the first place. Every time you leap out and in is a second wasted and can be used to do something else! You can put in more AA chain for Hammer heal. You are wasting leaping out and in because of 450 dash you don't want in the first place for applying Alac. Just because of what? Flavour? Changing this aspect will not make Alac Willbender plays the same as other spec. It will instead streamline the purpose of Phoenix Protocol/Flowing Resolve for Alac application and instead put the time and mobility resources in better use.

Then -as already repeatedly said- move to the side of the group and use f2 across it to remain near the target. It's not like the only way you can move is by using dashes, leaps and dodges. You want to play a mobile spec, so play it like a mobile spec instead of apparently wanting to keep 5 mobility skills as your safety buttons. This is a player issue, not a spec issue.
And now the spear on weapon swap might be what aheal wb needed too.

 

On 6/18/2024 at 11:42 AM, Ferus.3165 said:

i think willbender might not be the class for you. Play a different spec or class if you want a different playstyle

Yup, I think alacbender plays exactly in the style wb is going for -and it doesn't fail at doing it as opposed to what some people try claiming in this thread.

 

19 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Imagine playing Red Rover with Flowing Resolve.

I'll imagine that the moment "red rover" becomes a mode in this game, but until then... what?

Edited June 23 by Sobx.1758

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'll imagine that the moment "red rover" becomes a mode in this game, but until then... what?

I guess you choose to stop running across the battlefield when a deadly effect suddenly pops up in front of you? Or not, if you aren't too bright. 🤷‍♂️

"wheee!" *SMASH* "ouch."
"You didn't stop when that elementalist laid down a Static Field in front of you. Like I did."
"Stop? A curious idea. I didn't think of that!"
"You have much to learn kid."   

[Sobx.1758]

45 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I guess you choose to stop running across the battlefield when a deadly effect suddenly pops up in front of you? Or not, if you aren't too bright. 🤷‍♂️

"wheee!" *SMASH* "ouch."
"You didn't stop when that elementalist laid down a Static Field in front of you. Like I did."
"Stop? A curious idea. I didn't think of that!"
"You have much to learn kid."   

Attempts to base game design on real life situations are always so ridiculous. If you run into a deadly effect with your dash then consider using it better. 🤷‍♂️ 
(which, funnily enough, was already the point being made in this thread -the skill isn't bad just because you are able to use it badly. And this is what you're describing here again)

Edited June 23 by Sobx.1758

[Gaiawolf.8261]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Attempts to base game design on real life situations are always so ridiculous. If you run into a deadly effect with your dash then consider using it better. 🤷‍♂️ 
(which, funnily enough, was already the point being made in this thread -the skill isn't bad just because you are able to use it badly. And this is what you're describing here again)

The Helio Rush change may or may not be an attempt to move toward smarter skill and game design. I guess we'll see in time if they continue that trend and update older skills.

[Sobx.1758]

43 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

The Helio Rush change may or may not be an attempt to move toward smarter skill and game design. I guess we'll see in time if they continue that trend and update older skills.

It's true that it may or may not mean something and it's true that we might or might not see them changing the skills. 😄 
Although rush skills with targeted point of arrival -so to speak- already existed in the game so not sure it's the case of anything limiting them. And I guess I have to repeat once again that it's meaningful what ranges we're talking about and f2 is relatively short which enables -also already mentioned- moving slightly aside to use it across the group while remaining near the target if someone's really so adamant about saving the other movement abilities.

Edited June 23 by Sobx.1758

[Supernova Starr.2069]

On 6/16/2024 at 7:52 AM, phandaria.4891 said:

The current design of Alacrity application is inefficient, because most of the time you don't want/need the 450 dash

This show how off you are aware from WB design and gameplay. F2 is mainly and evade/repositioning skill, far from a dash/offensive skill

On 6/16/2024 at 7:52 AM, phandaria.4891 said:

I want to play hyper mobile boon/heal boon spec!

WB would need an overhaul on it's entire kit to be an efficient healer.

[phandaria.4891]

17 hours ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

This show how off you are aware from WB design and gameplay. F2 is mainly and evade/repositioning skill, far from a dash/offensive skill

WB would need an overhaul on it's entire kit to be an efficient healer.

This is why I mention specifically Phoenix Protocol. F2 that I keep mentioning in my post are the F2 that has been affected by the trait Phoenix Protocol.

F2 is indeed evade/repositioning skill. But with Phoenix Protocol, it adds on crucial role as Alac provider. My whole post is about how Phoenix Protocol at the current form is badly designed, NOT the base F2. The evade/repositioning skill needs to be separated from Alac button by design.

I don't think WB needs overhaul on its entire kit. The DPS Willbender works as intended. However Phoenix Protocol as the alac/support trait needs to be overhauled. If you read the thread title it specifically said Phoenix Protocol. I do not wish for Willbender gameplay/design to be changed, please do not confuse other people's statement or sentiment with mine.

Edited June 25 by phandaria.4891

[phandaria.4891]

On 6/23/2024 at 8:53 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

If you want to play a hyper mobile build then that's exactly what it is and the way it provides alac (use of mobility +stacking hits to generate effects) is 100% in line with wb overal design. I already said that and it remains being true, so I still don't see this as anything problematic. Meanwhile now you're saying you want to play a hypemobile boon spec, after you repeatedly presented not wanting to move around or use the dashes to generate the effects. I don't see how that's supposed to make sense.

I want to choose when I do 450 dash and when I apply alac separately. Having to mandatory do both at the same time is not being hypermobile. By being mobile, you can choose when you want to move and not to move. You don't have to move when you don't want to or don't need to. What I don't think making sense is being forced to move 450 range, when I just need to apply alacrity.

On 6/16/2024 at 2:36 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

"But those other alac providers play differently!" is hardly a valid argument for me. 

On 6/23/2024 at 8:53 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

False:

And these quotes, btw, are also untrue, because it's not "subpar" and it doesn't need to be played perfectly. As far as I'm aware, it just needs to not be played terribly.

I don't understand the words that you use. My statement is simple, currently Alac WB/Heal Alac WB is subpar compared to other spec in the same role. You can check the dataset if you need, the amount of alacrity and heal it provides is less than other spec in similar role. No, I am not saying it cannot provide 100% alacrity uptime, I am saying by design it is subpar to other provider. Other spec may provide the same amount when played "terribly". Using the word "perfectly" might be a bit of a stretch, I agree, but contrary to your belief, using alac/heal WB in actual group content is much harder than other alac spec just to provide the same level of alac and healing, hence I said it is not effective.

Another definition of effective for me is to use the time well. By going 450 distance out/in, it is literally time spent every time you apply alac (oftentimes for no reason). If you travel 0 distance, which do you think is more effective or time more well spent?

On 6/23/2024 at 8:53 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, I think alacbender plays exactly in the style wb is going for -and it doesn't fail at doing it as opposed to what some people try claiming in this thread.

I don't have any issue with DPS willbender because it has none of that 450 dash out/in nonsense. This is to me this is what WB style is like. F2 is for evade/repositioning only. The 450 dash out/in is only for Alacbender design. DPS Willbender stay still in front the enemy with its most used spec button F1.  Why do you claim the mandatory 450 dash out/in is the overall WB design when it is not prevalent on its DPS counterpart?

Edited June 25 by phandaria.4891

[Supernova Starr.2069]

7 hours ago, phandaria.4891 said:

However Phoenix Protocol as the alac/support trait needs to be overhauled. If you read the thread title it specifically said Phoenix Protocol. I do not wish for Willbender gameplay/design to be changed, please do not confuse other people's statement or sentiment with mine.

Phoenix Protocol overhaul will not make WB a good support because it lacks the components to be a proper one: lack of might generation outside combat, no reliable source of fury, mediocre healing output and so on.

Edited June 25 by Supernova Starr.2069

[phandaria.4891]

54 minutes ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Phoenix Protocol overhaul will not make WB a good support because it lacks the components to be a proper one: lack of might generation outside combat, no reliable source of fury, mediocre healing output and so on.

It is a start. Phoenix Protocol is the Grandmaster support trait, however it fails at that. I don't believe taking away the healing is good design for Phoenix Protocol as well, but it is another conversation. Phoenix Protocol was originally designed as selfish boon provider (i.e. only for Willbender), hence it needs major overhaul to make it relevant as support trait.

The addition of spear as support weapon will give some push for WB to be a good support. Spear 3 was shown to generate might and fury for allies. We will see how it works.