Open World Weaver - Give up?

[Flame Of The Titan.3649]

8 hours ago, Chyro.1462 said:

It was set to 90 sec when they first 'fixed' it but has been lowerd to 30 seconds in a recent patch. So 10 seconds quickness (+ all other buffs, with the might stacks and swiftness being 30sec) every 30 sec. And oftentimes you spend some of the cooldown time going to the next mob or doing something else in open world anyways. Combined with some sigils or the moung-engage relic, you could have quickness up quite regularly.

There are many people that play this game that do not own EOD or ways to get these buffs, while I agree it makes what we're discussing here trivial, it's not applicable for all players
 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

2 hours ago, Flame Of The Titan.3649 said:

Why does Weaver get left behind when you compare other classes and elite specs?

At PoF release Weaver wasn't full garbage spec. Actually is was a beast in all modes.
It had the same issue of boons than today, it took already a lot of efforts ;  but you had better base power, coef, base healing too, better CD on swords, stab on stances, primordial stance was insane even without condi damage and in instanced pve you did ~10% more dps, baby-sitted by the insane FB/ARen.
And so came the complaints "too much DPS" "too much sustain" "too much burning" "too much tools in kit" "celestial too strong" but people were not necessarily speaking of the global, just one variable at once. And they clearly didn't play weaver either, because the disparity of levels was already wide and most of weavers were just "passable".

And so instead of fixing one variable to cap results, and balance the spec for everyone, they nerfed everything, and core elementalist too. So no more damage, no more sustain etc, no more weaver but try-harders.

Sadly came too EoD with obvious "nerf previous specs, make power creep with new ones" then the end of runes, mastery of weapons, etc, and as no developer play elementalist, weaver ends up in oblivion.

I'm one if the try harders, I still play weaver with many builds because of love the mechanics, and it was a time, I think I was "top" weaver in pvp and wvw roaming (so close to earn the legend title😢)  but it's too sad to look at the fact I greatly improve my level just by switching weaver for catalyst, or by playing any other class even with low experience in it.
Same in OW, why play weaver when you can play reaper, untamed, vindicator, full boon, more sustain, more dps, or LI mechanist with one finger on AA and still more dps.

[soulknight.9620]

4 hours ago, Flame Of The Titan.3649 said:

Why does Weaver get left behind when you compare other classes and elite specs?

The meme answer: because even the devs cant play ele right, I still remember that HoT stream!

The short answer: because its hard to balance due to its main mechanics.

The long answer: Back in the days of a single balance with no split between wvw/spvp/pve ele got loads of nerfs in pve based on problems in wvw/spvp like the riptide nerf that was totaly justified for the competetive modes, but was totaly unnecessary in pve. Thats just one example. There were more like Meteor Shower got turned into a DPS loss instead of a powerfull nuke (yeah im not talking about large hitboxes obviously), catalyst hammer 3 nerfs that made it do 1 damage and so on. These nerfs addressed a single problem in a particular situation (MS was "a problem" only against large hitboxes, catalyst was a problem in cata stacking raid groups etc), but as a result this nuked every other aspect of these skills usability and class as a whole in other situations. A crude analogy would be: you have a chicken running in your backyard ruining your plants etc and to get rid of that chicken you throw a nuclear warhead at it and watch the whole city burn in nuclear fire. Thats how anet addressed problems with ele. 

At a time there were not a lot of "overnuked" abilities and traits on ele, but as time went on they reached a critical mass and now there is literary no way anet can fix this unless they redo the core mechanic of ele/weaver - attunements. If they undo the nerfs and let average people get decent performance and have fun then SC would be doing a minimum 70+k dps which breaks some end game content. For example if anet would give weaver self quick uptime then you would see a 1 alac heal 4 weaver meta raid groups melting bosses. And instead of allowing some "goofing around" with different niche stacks - anet chooses to nerf everything in to the ground. 

To acrually address the problems ele has atm, anet needs to rethink how attunements work and change their phylosophy. Back in the days ele had all of the tools it needed but split into 4 attunements. The tradeoff was attunement swap cd and the fact that you were jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. You had to juggle more skills than other classes, but had more advantages for doing so. The tradeoff was you had a full kit of anything you want, but you would lock yourself out of an attunement for a certain amount of time if you went for another attunement for different "thing". You could swap to water to get heals/condi cleanses, but you were loosing on dps for 8 secs (that was before weaver). Now that problem is still here, but other classes are balanced outside of these boundaries. Just look at FB, their tomes are basically 0 cd attunements with loads of utility. And they do not have to pay for it in any way.

Now since all of the classes have roughly the same amount of "buttons" to push, the question is why does ele has to have strict tradeoffs when other classes dont have to. 

Edited June 19 by soulknight.9620

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 hours ago, Flame Of The Titan.3649 said:

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I read your post thoroughly and it seems you are more in a higher % of Weaver players who are able to master the game quite well, really the main issue is that you are putting this much effort in for when you could play any other class and it would of been faster, easier and required about 50% less input.

An example of the build you posted is full Damage, so if I'm understanding correctly you only used Fire + Air, nothing else - So if anyone playing a Weaver wants to utilize, the entire classes tool kit they might as well not bother - The discussion isn't also just following a Zerker build, we are discussing weaver as a whole. This is the issue many players face that they say "Well I did it so you just follow me" rather than pointing out the obvious flaws with Weaver.

I can't speak for WvW because we aren't talking about WvW, this thread specifically was speaking about Open World, I don't count Fractals or Raids as open world sadly. I'm also finding it hard to see how with full zerkers you got stunned by golems and never went down ONCE - That's very insane, you've also not specified how long this entire run took, just that you did it.

The issue with weaver is that getting any stacks of might (A feat most classes can now achieve easily) + Some form of Quickness or Alacrity doesn't even exist for Weaver

Towards the end of your post you just devolve into childish discussions about how we're "complaining" about the least played class in the entire game. If you look at most groups in Open world content (And lets say raids as well) you'll be hard pressed to find people playing Ele's or Weavers because everything else is just far better than what we have.

If you can't keep the discussion open and you just say "Well, I'm good at it so you're opinion is wrong!!!" then don't bother replying my guy, this thread and many threads on this form are discussing the same thing, so if you are refusing to engage in the conversation by simply showing off that you're a better player than 99% of other people might I suggest humbling yourself to the level of others and understanding not everyone enjoys playing just power builds or soloing things?

Personally because I'm sure you're wondering what I do, I like to play JUST open World, I enjoy doing Metas and the like - I could play my Weaver and do sub-par damage, or I could play pretty much any other class and not only buff allies when I tag up, I could also provide them buffs and better damage overall.

My main love of Elementalist is using Condi builds because of the fact you have TWENTY different skills to utilize and that's fun - What's not fun is that if you utilize all of these you're still trash and you'd be better off playing another class. Right now I'm running Trailblazers armor with Celestial trinkets, not optimal at all but it's fun - all I'm trying to do is have more fun with my Weaver, when I play with my Harbinger friend who gives me LITERALLY EVERY BUFF IN THE GAME with the press of two skills, I question what the hell I'm doing struggling to produce a bit of might.

Why does Weaver get left behind when you compare other classes and elite specs?

I think you're giving too much credit.  The guy is talking about using "hit and run" tactics as the reason quickness isn't useful.  It's not even relevant to the discussion.  I also notice he didn't mention what tier fractal he did or how long it took.  Power weaver with no boons and some defensive traits/utilities slotted is a <20k DPS build.  Factor in the "hit and run tactics" and "flat out running away swinging in water attunement to recover health" and it's clear DPS isn't even a consideration.  So why would quickness matter?

[Noodle Ant.1605]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Thus, the conundrum that is this thread.  I have a fuzzy memory, but my memory is telling me that for many years the large complaint about Weaver was it's alacrity dependency for rotations.  That alacrity dependency is felt in long fights and high pressure situations, where the greatest thing holding you back is attunement swapping to get to all of your skills.  Not the skill executions themselves.  Then, when this thread shows up, suddenly everyone forgets the alacrity dependency and starts riding the quickness train.  Why, exactly, did everyone drop the plot and jump aboard this new thing?  Is it just because you like to complain about ele?  There's no way that weaver would get both personal quickness and personal alacrity if it were buffed, and most of the players here should know that.  You're all abandoning the more important possible buff in lieu of more auto attacking.  

i believe most people mostly propose quickness on weaver as a means to an end, and not as some one thing that will fix everything. any decent combination of easy/free access to 25 might/vuln, perma self-fury so that weavers dont have to gamble on crits and simply more boons in general would do the same thing - make weavers output more self-sufficient

in terms of quickness vs alacrity, quickness is more of a pure dps boost than alacrity, which is more for general use. also consider that most usually fight long encounters with allies, and that alacrity is hardly felt in shorter common encounters that are spaced few and far in between

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i believe most people mostly propose quickness on weaver as a means to an end, and not as some one thing that will fix everything. any decent combination of easy/free access to 25 might/vuln, perma self-fury so that weavers dont have to gamble on crits and simply more boons in general would do the same thing - make weavers output more self-sufficient

in terms of quickness vs alacrity, quickness is more of a pure dps boost than alacrity, which is more for general use. also consider that most usually fight long encounters with allies, and that alacrity is hardly felt in shorter common encounters that are spaced few and far in between

I imagine for most players any class feels better with quickness.  But especially with weaver because there's more pressure to get your skills out quickly with that 4 second attunement swap.  It's also a big damage boost and who wouldn't want that?  Alacrity is also useful, but as you point out it isn't as much of a DPS boost.  It's also relatively less important when you don't have quickness as when you do have it you'll be able to push through your rotation faster so having the shorter cooldowns becomes more important.  It can become a problem in group play if you have spotty alacrity coverage but 100% quickness uptime.  A few seconds of alacrity drop can mess up your rotation. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:48 PM, Flame Of The Titan.3649 said:

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I read your post thoroughly and it seems you are more in a higher % of Weaver players who are able to master the game quite well, really the main issue is that you are putting this much effort in for when you could play any other class and it would of been faster, easier and required about 50% less input.

An example of the build you posted is full Damage, so if I'm understanding correctly you only used Fire + Air, nothing else - So if anyone playing a Weaver wants to utilize, the entire classes tool kit they might as well not bother - The discussion isn't also just following a Zerker build, we are discussing weaver as a whole. This is the issue many players face that they say "Well I did it so you just follow me" rather than pointing out the obvious flaws with Weaver.

I can't speak for WvW because we aren't talking about WvW, this thread specifically was speaking about Open World, I don't count Fractals or Raids as open world sadly. I'm also finding it hard to see how with full zerkers you got stunned by golems and never went down ONCE - That's very insane, you've also not specified how long this entire run took, just that you did it.

The issue with weaver is that getting any stacks of might (A feat most classes can now achieve easily) + Some form of Quickness or Alacrity doesn't even exist for Weaver

Towards the end of your post you just devolve into childish discussions about how we're "complaining" about the least played class in the entire game. If you look at most groups in Open world content (And lets say raids as well) you'll be hard pressed to find people playing Ele's or Weavers because everything else is just far better than what we have.

If you can't keep the discussion open and you just say "Well, I'm good at it so you're opinion is wrong!!!" then don't bother replying my guy, this thread and many threads on this form are discussing the same thing, so if you are refusing to engage in the conversation by simply showing off that you're a better player than 99% of other people might I suggest humbling yourself to the level of others and understanding not everyone enjoys playing just power builds or soloing things?

Personally because I'm sure you're wondering what I do, I like to play JUST open World, I enjoy doing Metas and the like - I could play my Weaver and do sub-par damage, or I could play pretty much any other class and not only buff allies when I tag up, I could also provide them buffs and better damage overall.

My main love of Elementalist is using Condi builds because of the fact you have TWENTY different skills to utilize and that's fun - What's not fun is that if you utilize all of these you're still trash and you'd be better off playing another class. Right now I'm running Trailblazers armor with Celestial trinkets, not optimal at all but it's fun - all I'm trying to do is have more fun with my Weaver, when I play with my Harbinger friend who gives me LITERALLY EVERY BUFF IN THE GAME with the press of two skills, I question what the hell I'm doing struggling to produce a bit of might.

Why does Weaver get left behind when you compare other classes and elite specs?

Yeah, I thought so.  You made this thread because you aren't happy, so you're throwing down as much stuff as possible to try to bolster your feelings with no real point or solid goal.  In all those words, you've made it very clear that you don't like that I've posted, but you didn't address the point I made about how quickness and alacrity actually affect the profession.  Now, to address some more specific points:

#1: I'm not a master player of any sort.  

#2: I used all attunements, not just fire and air... as stated when I mentioned the CC rotation and the glyph of elementals.

#3: Your contention with me using a zerker build is meaningless.

#4: Your initial complaint about a lack of personal quickness is not relegated to arbitrary definitions of "Open World."  Self-boons are important anywhere that boons are not given freely.

#5: I posted my build, and then explained my tactics for each of the bosses.  You should know very well why I didn't go down.

#6:  Ele can blast fire fields for might.  Fire Aura's also grant might when struck.

#7:  You never explain why it is an issue, aside from your highly doubtable claim that you're dying because your attacks are going out fast enough.  By this standard, any elite spec that doesn't generate large amounts of self quickness or alacrity should get it... which is a lot of them.  

#8:  You're the one that thinks complaining is childish.  You said it, not me.  You're completely brushing aside the point I made there, which is inconsistency in boon suggestions and how the mutual exclusivity of quickness/alacrity means that calling for self-quickness would exclude the much more important self-alacrity. 

#9:  At no point did I say, or even imply, that you're all wrong because I'm better than you.  In fact, I dedicated an entire paragraph comparing the mechanical effects that quickness and alacrity have on the weaver.  Somehow this also has escaped your attention, in spite of your claim that you've read through my entire post.

#10:  This is the only thread on the forum claiming that Weaver cannot survive because it's lack of self-quickness means it can't use its skills fast enough.  Really, this is a novel complaint.

#11:  Weaver doesn't have sub-par damage in group settings where other people are providing boons.  There's a couple of high solo performers out there, such as untamed, but that "solo" advantage goes away when others are around.  

#12: Your complaint that you don't buff allies doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things.  Aside from the fields and blast finishers, weaver pulses out group barrier, can run aquatic stance for heals,  and spreads weakness.  This isn't seeing the forest for the trees, though:  If you want to buff your allies, have you tried equipping a spec that buffs allies?  Really, you're building yourself as a high mobility but more selfish spec, and then lamenting that you're on a selfish spec.  You can just as easily swap over to Tempest or Catalyst.

#13: I don't actually care what you do or how you play ele.  You can use ele solely for cosplay purposes.  What I do care about is the bizarre claims that you have made about the profession, and the claims that you have lobbied against me.  I'm not here to be tribal.  If I was, I would've said something when I saw this thread yesterday.  The reason why I posted is because other people, not just you specifically, have somehow forgotten the existence of Jade Tech combat buffs, and have also forgotten among all the labored discussions about the flaws of the spec that alacrity dependency was one of the bigger ones.  

#14: You seem to be under the misunderstanding that I went to go and solo a low level fractal just to brag and dismiss you all with my superior bodacious-ness.  That isn't the reason.  I did it first to check to see if there was some detail or minutia I was missing, second to give an example of how in high-pressure scenarios that quickness wouldn't make a meaningful contribution to my survival and how high active defenses reduces the damage buff that quickness gives.  As for low-pressure scenarios... you aren't dying, period.  

Edited June 27 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[Flame Of The Titan.3649]

🤡

At this point you are just de-railing the thread with your own discussion, go and make your own thread about how great weavers are instead so we can discuss ours in peace.

Edited June 19 by Flame Of The Titan.3649

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Yeah, I thought so.  You made this thread because you aren't happy, so you're throwing down as much stuff as possible to try to bolster your feelings with no real point or solid goal.  In all those words, you've made it very clear that you don't like that I've posted, but you didn't address the point I made about how quickness and alacrity actually affect the profession.  Now, to address some more specific points:

#1: I'm not a master player of any sort.  

#2: I used all attunements, not just fire and air... as stated when I mentioned the CC rotation and the glyph of elementals.

#3: Your contention with me using a zerker build is meaningless.

#4: Your initial complaint about a lack of personal quickness is not relegated to arbitrary definitions of "Open World."  Self-boons are important anywhere that boons are not given freely.

#5: I posted my build, and then explained my tactics for each of the bosses.  You should know very well why I didn't go down.

#6:  Ele can blast fire fields for might.  Fire Aura's also grant might when struck.

#7:  You never explain why it is an issue, aside from your highly doubtable claim that you're dying because your attacks are going out fast enough.  By this standard, any elite spec that doesn't generate large amounts of self quickness or alacrity should get it... which is a lot of them.  

#8:  You're the one that thinks complaining is childish.  You said it, not me.  You're completely brushing aside the point I made there, which is inconsistency in boon suggestions and how the mutual exclusivity of quickness/alacrity means that calling for self-quickness would exclude the much more important self-alacrity. 

#9:  At no point did I say, or even imply, that you're all wrong because I'm better than you.  In fact, I dedicated an entire paragraph comparing the mechanical effects that quickness and alacrity have on the weaver.  Somehow this also has escaped your attention, in spite of your claim that you've read through my entire post.

#10:  This is the only thread on the forum claiming that Weaver cannot survive because it's lack of self-quickness means it can't use its skills fast enough.  Really, this is a novel complaint.

#11:  Weaver doesn't have sup-par damage in group settings where other people are providing boons.  There's a couple of high solo performers out there, such as untamed, but that "solo" advantage goes away when others are around.  

#12: Your complaint that you don't buff allies doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things.  Aside from the fields and blast finishers, weaver pulses out group barrier, can run aquatic stance for heals,  and spreads weakness.  This isn't seeing the forest for the trees, though:  If you want to buff your allies, have you tried equipping a spec that buffs allies?  Really, you're building yourself as a high mobility but more selfish spec, and then lamenting that you're on a selfish spec.  You can just as easily swap over to Tempest or Catalyst.

#13: I don't actually care what you do or how you play ele.  You can use ele solely for cosplay purposes.  What I do care about is the bizarre claims that you have made about the profession, and the claims that you have lobbied against me.  I'm not here to be tribal.  If I was, I would've said something when I saw this thread yesterday.  The reason why I posted is because other people, not just you specifically, have somehow forgotten the existence of Jade Tech combat buffs, and have also forgotten among all the labored discussions about the flaws of the spec that alacrity dependency was one of the bigger ones.  

#14: You seem to be under the misunderstanding that I went to go and solo a low level fractal just to brag and dismiss you all with my superior bodacious-ness.  That isn't the reason.  I did it first to check to see if there was some detail or minutia I was missing, second to give an example of how in high-pressure scenarios that quickness wouldn't make a meaningful contribution to my survival and how high active defenses reduces the damage buff that quickness gives.  As for low-pressure scenarios... you aren't dying, period.  

I'm sure the OP didn't mean it this way, but there is a relationship between damage and sustain.  To put it in simple terms, the higher your damage output the more mileage you get out of your defensive cooldowns, CC, etc. and the less sustain you require.

I like to use the Balthazar HP as an illustration.  He deals high damage, but has a breakbar as well as an animation lock that amount to as much as 15 seconds wherein the boss is unable to attack.

That doesn't mean much if, for instance, you're kiting on a sword build.  But with a sound build and tactics the kill time on this champion can be below 20 seconds.  The breakbar stun, animation lock, and any defensive cooldowns are more than enough to survive on a glass build.  

In that context, boons like quickness may be considered key components in sustain.

[Flame Of The Titan.3649]

9 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm sure the OP didn't mean it this way, but there is a relationship between damage and sustain.  To put it in simple terms, the higher your damage output the more mileage you get out of your defensive cooldowns, CC, etc. and the less sustain you require.

I like to use the Balthazar HP as an illustration.  He deals high damage, but has a breakbar as well as an animation lock that amount to as much as 15 seconds wherein the boss is unable to attack.

That doesn't mean much if, for instance, you're kiting on a sword build.  But with a sound build and tactics the kill time on this champion can be below 20 seconds.  The breakbar stun, animation lock, and any defensive cooldowns are more than enough to survive on a glass build.  

In that context, boons like quickness may be considered key components in sustain.

It's actually the most simplest terms.

Quickness is fun. Alacrity is fun.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity

Once you lay out everything - It's pretty easy to identify some small issues.

 

[Chyro.1462]

9 hours ago, Flame Of The Titan.3649 said:

There are many people that play this game that do not own EOD or ways to get these buffs, while I agree it makes what we're discussing here trivial, it's not applicable for all players
 

I mean.. playing weaver is also not applicable for all players. You need PoF for it. Should we not mention possible solutions just cause you require a certain part of the game to make use of it?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I think you're giving too much credit.  The guy is talking about using "hit and run" tactics as the reason quickness isn't useful.  It's not even relevant to the discussion.  I also notice he didn't mention what tier fractal he did or how long it took.  Power weaver with no boons and some defensive traits/utilities slotted is a <20k DPS build.  Factor in the "hit and run tactics" and "flat out running away swinging in water attunement to recover health" and it's clear DPS isn't even a consideration.  So why would quickness matter?

It's the reason why quickness isn't useful for my personal survival.  I didn't measure the time it took, but it wasn't much longer than when I do it on Scrapper/Bladesworn/Chronomancer.  If anything, it was faster, because on Scrapper and Chrono I tend to die once or twice.  On those professions, I still use hit-and-run tactics for certain parts of the fights.  Even with Scrapper's self regeneration or Bladesworn's immense health, multiple champions wailing on your face will still get you killed.  There's no healer to carry, so attempting to match the benchmark is a bad strategy.  I didn't need to use hit and run tactics for the first golem, and if things went better I wouldn't have needed it for the last ones, either.  Plan "A" for me was to use all of my CC to disable multiple golems at once, which would've let up the pressure and let me kill them all very quickly.  It didn't work, because they all started spamming their CC's and I kept getting interrupted.  

5 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i believe most people mostly propose quickness on weaver as a means to an end, and not as some one thing that will fix everything. any decent combination of easy/free access to 25 might/vuln, perma self-fury so that weavers dont have to gamble on crits and simply more boons in general would do the same thing - make weavers output more self-sufficient

in terms of quickness vs alacrity, quickness is more of a pure dps boost than alacrity, which is more for general use. also consider that most usually fight long encounters with allies, and that alacrity is hardly felt in shorter common encounters that are spaced few and far in between

That's my point.  People are just saying "give us everything" without really thinking about what would work best for the spec or what it is made to do in the first place.  If we wanted to give it a bunch of group boons, first we would have to take away those boons from either tempest or catalyst to keep the theme going, and then we'd have to find some place to put them on the weaver's line.  Weaver's themes are its evasiveness, mobility, and barrier generation.  The weaver traits are divided up into three categories: damage increasing traits, mobility increasing traits, and health/barrier increasing traits.  We'd have to take those away to get personal alacrity.  

When it comes to boons in general, we already have an option for that:  The arcane line.  Players don't equip it generally because they prefer to have higher damage modifiers that other trait lines give, but it does give plenty of boons.  

[Flame Of The Titan.3649]

Just now, Chyro.1462 said:

I mean.. playing weaver is also not applicable for all players. You need PoF for it. Should we not mention possible solutions just cause you require a certain part of the game to make use of it?

Again, I literally agree with you - But you shouldn't have to rely on these buffs to have a decent class compared to other classes which are generating these boons and more.

I can't see how discussing the semantics of needing literal world buffs to perform on a class makes it okay.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

20 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm sure the OP didn't mean it this way, but there is a relationship between damage and sustain.  To put it in simple terms, the higher your damage output the more mileage you get out of your defensive cooldowns, CC, etc. and the less sustain you require.

I like to use the Balthazar HP as an illustration.  He deals high damage, but has a breakbar as well as an animation lock that amount to as much as 15 seconds wherein the boss is unable to attack.

That doesn't mean much if, for instance, you're kiting on a sword build.  But with a sound build and tactics the kill time on this champion can be below 20 seconds.  The breakbar stun, animation lock, and any defensive cooldowns are more than enough to survive on a glass build.  

In that context, boons like quickness may be considered key components in sustain.

Well, you're right: he didn't mean it that way.  We have to consider the appropriateness of the situation, though.  Aside from proccing the healing signet more frequently, quickness as a survival tool only works in a sweet spot.  If the enemies are too weak then it doesn't matter because they die really fast with or without quickness.  If the enemies are too strong, then the extra damage wouldn't matter because you'll still be forced to evade and heal anyway, so all quickness does is give you more auto attacks.  For example, something else that my bodacious rockin' bod does is solo bounties, and those guys are gigantic HP sponges.  It takes several minutes to kill them, even the easier ones that you can just wail on.  The presence of quickness... doesn't change much in the realms of survival in these circumstances.  

[AliamRationem.5172]

28 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It's the reason why quickness isn't useful for my personal survival.  I didn't measure the time it took, but it wasn't much longer than when I do it on Scrapper/Bladesworn/Chronomancer.  If anything, it was faster, because on Scrapper and Chrono I tend to die once or twice.  On those professions, I still use hit-and-run tactics for certain parts of the fights.  Even with Scrapper's self regeneration or Bladesworn's immense health, multiple champions wailing on your face will still get you killed.  There's no healer to carry, so attempting to match the benchmark is a bad strategy.  I didn't need to use hit and run tactics for the first golem, and if things went better I wouldn't have needed it for the last ones, either.  Plan "A" for me was to use all of my CC to disable multiple golems at once, which would've let up the pressure and let me kill them all very quickly.  It didn't work, because they all started spamming their CC's and I kept getting interrupted.  

That's my point.  People are just saying "give us everything" without really thinking about what would work best for the spec or what it is made to do in the first place.  If we wanted to give it a bunch of group boons, first we would have to take away those boons from either tempest or catalyst to keep the theme going, and then we'd have to find some place to put them on the weaver's line.  Weaver's themes are its evasiveness, mobility, and barrier generation.  The weaver traits are divided up into three categories: damage increasing traits, mobility increasing traits, and health/barrier increasing traits.  We'd have to take those away to get personal alacrity.  

When it comes to boons in general, we already have an option for that:  The arcane line.  Players don't equip it generally because they prefer to have higher damage modifiers that other trait lines give, but it does give plenty of boons.  

Players don't equip arcane for boons because it doesn't provide anything useful.  The useful boons it does provide are in small quantities and duration which are overlapped by better traits in other lines.  Gaining 1 stack of might on swap is some dated garbage.

[AliamRationem.5172]

52 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Well, you're right: he didn't mean it that way.  We have to consider the appropriateness of the situation, though.  Aside from proccing the healing signet more frequently, quickness as a survival tool only works in a sweet spot.  If the enemies are too weak then it doesn't matter because they die really fast with or without quickness.  If the enemies are too strong, then the extra damage wouldn't matter because you'll still be forced to evade and heal anyway, so all quickness does is give you more auto attacks.  For example, something else that my bodacious rockin' bod does is solo bounties, and those guys are gigantic HP sponges.  It takes several minutes to kill them, even the easier ones that you can just wail on.  The presence of quickness... doesn't change much in the realms of survival in these circumstances.  

Yes, a sweet spot that encompasses nearly everything we do in open world.  But even if it doesn't apply indirectly to sustain, the 41% higher damage shown in the earlier video certainly helps to make your several minutes long bounty solos go quicker and it's great for bursting that trash as well.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Just give mights and fury, it would be nice already. And it will work.
+Quickness traits/skills are often gutted in competitives modes; no need for quickness in pve, and so same old kitten lack of boons in wvw because they replace quickness with swiftness.

On sustain, if we're not talking about offensive boons; they should rework the barriers for weaver.
I just don't get why they cared so much to give weaver some barriers, only to nerf them patch after patch without adding any synergy or QoL.
Double Elemental Polyphony if you have barrier ;  might/fury when you grant barrier ; weave self final skill gives barriers ; increase base barrier by 15% ; barriers decrease CD of Stances/Dual attacks ...

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:48 PM, Flame Of The Titan.3649 said:

An example of the build you posted is full Damage, so if I'm understanding correctly you only used Fire + Air, nothing else - So if anyone playing a Weaver wants to utilize, the entire classes tool kit they might as well not bother

There's a certain irony in that unless you're using a Weave Self cycle, bouncing between two attunements is how you maximise weaver's strengths. The reason being the minor traits that trigger when you switch to a specific element, like Sunspot and Electric Discharge. Weaver can trigger these traits every four seconds or so if they bounce between the attunements they have the traitlines for, while still using skills from those attunements. Other elementalists, unless they're using Fresh Air, get less activations of these traits if they spend time actually using that attunement's skills, and at most will get two activations every ten seconds (before alacrity).

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

On 6/20/2024 at 4:53 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

There's a certain irony in that unless you're using a Weave Self cycle, bouncing between two attunements is how you maximise weaver's strengths. The reason being the minor traits that trigger when you switch to a specific element, like Sunspot and Electric Discharge. Weaver can trigger these traits every four seconds or so if they bounce between the attunements they have the traitlines for, while still using skills from those attunements. Other elementalists, unless they're using Fresh Air, get less activations of these traits if they spend time actually using that attunement's skills, and at most will get two activations every ten seconds (before alacrity).

To be really specific about the tactics I use, I have the Fresh Air setup largely for CC chains, to use more dual skills for weakness, and also to make going into other elements out of rotation less punishing.   An added side benefit is that it let me layer up the high DPS skills in the 3 slot for some effective bursts.  Absent of any outside needs, my rotation usually goes something like this:

Start in Double Air, go slowly into double fire, then alternate between going Fire/Water for Twin Strike and Shearing Edge, to Earth/Earth for all of their DPS skills.  I have to alternate the end path because the cooldowns in Earth are too long to make it a simple rotation.  I tend to go for the Earth First, because it lets me stack might by blasting the fire fields.  

For CC, go anywhere to Earth-> Air/Earth (single tap) -> Gale Strike -> Earthquake (double tap into air) -> Updraft -> Polaric Leap, totaling 732 defiance damage against a single target, 632 against up to 3 targets.  Combined with frequent weakness and chill application, this let me defiance break the Shaman and the Etin at the same time.

The emergency heal rotation is a bit different.  I go anywhere -> Water, use Riptide to avoid an attack, then go Earth/Water to start blasting the field with Earthen Vortex and uses Cleansing Wave -> Earth/Air (single tap) to use Earthquake and Churning Earth in the water field.  Not including the regeneration, this is a 6.6k heal.  The Second Boss's damage was consistent, so given more time I would wait to double-water for Aqua Siphon and Transmute Frost for 2.7k additional heal.  Put all that together with the 3 Stone Resonance, the Healing Signet, Elemental Refreshment, Lava Skin, and the occasional Ice Elemental, it becomes very clear how I stayed alive.

I recommend Fresh Air on all power Weaver builds because of stuff like this.  Tempest and Catalyst can operate with Bolt to the Heart just fine, and they get very little out of the ability to attune to air at any time.  Fresh Air turns Weaver into a monster, permanently enabling several combos that would normally be impossible without Weave Self being active.  It sacrifices almost no damage over BttH, too.  

Edited June 21 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493