Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Revenant

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

The reason why it feels like it costs so much is because they designed the weapon without considering the fact that Revenant utilities also tax the same pool of Energy. 

When an entire weapon kit demands constant energy expenditure, you have a Kalla situation on your hands again with being forced to ration Energy solely on one portion of your kit. That's just straight up anti Revenant design which values Energy management as a whole. 

The energy costs on paper looks "fine" but in actuality, if you are forced to cast a 10 Energy skill in rapid succession, you're already out of Energy within 3 seconds of Combat considering you still want to use Legend stance skills. That's why I said that it would be more sensible if Abyssal Raze skill was the Spear 1 skill, a skill with no Energy cost or inherent cooldown since it starts low damage and ramps up over time anyway. 

This is what should be done: 

Crushing Abyss now stacks to 10, now empowers Abyssal Strike (Spear 1) 

Abyssal Strike: You throw your spear at your enemy (900 range) Stacks of Crushing Abyss causes Abyssal Strike to inflict increased damage and Torment stacks. 

Abyssal Force: Hurl your weapon at a foe. Inflicts area damage and conditions (not torment). Grants 1 stack of Crushing Abyss per enemy struck.

Abyssal Blitz: Dash and Evade, leaving mines behind. Enemies triggering these mines will be inflicted with Conditions, granting Crushing Abyss per mine detonated.

Abyssal Blot: Pulls foes in, dealing damage. Gain Crushing Abyss for each enemy hit by the final pulse of this skill. 

Abyssal Raze: Consume up to 5 stacks of Crushing Abyss instead of Energy. Charges at your target with ferocity, dealing increased damage and Conditions per stack of Crushing Abyss consumed to cast this skill. 
 

Idk, I don't like too much being depended on spamming autos to then very later on being able only to get increased effects on these other abilites. It seems easier to decrease energy cost on skill 5 atm.

And then you can still put other utility first on priority because energy you still have enough. 

If the weapon is going to work as they design with lesser things that can be east fixed like lowering energy cost some, then it's fine or increasing range a little. 

No need to make big overhauls on things that very likely are going to work. I prefere something that works then another scepter backscratcher

[zallesz.1650]

Also, condition weapons need time to come online, but on top of this you added another mechanic that takes time to come online.

When the weapon feels like it's performing "normally" after like 10 secs and 2 mechanics, it's not a power up, it's a nerf. It decreases it's capabilities and makes you feel weak instead of powerful. 

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

6 minutes ago, zallesz.1650 said:

Also, condition weapons need time to come online, but on top of this you added another mechanic that takes time to come online.

When the weapon feels like it's performing "normally" after like 10 secs and 2 mechanics, it's not a power up, it's a nerf. It decreases it's capabilities and makes you feel weak instead of powerful. 

Agreed… especially if the first hit still doesn’t apply any condi or any strike damage increase because you don’t have the buff on your bar yet to tell the skill to add more effects. That was the worst part of it. Not to mention you had to LAND it too or else the buff wouldn’t even stack and potentially could fall off. Basically meant in beta you had to spend at least 60 energy on a single skill to get an effective skill that other classes have as their basic skill 4 or 5. It was nonsense.

I really hope they fixed the first hit being a dud. Then they make skill 5 increase in stacks on USE not on hit. They could add a 5 energy refund if you land it though and that’d help tremendously. And please please, I hope they removed the auto cast of skill 5 when you had 5 stacks and swapped of the spear and put its power budget into the weapon itself. No one wants a melee passive activation on a ranged weapon.

Such a bizarre weapon that needs to ramp up in a damage system that already needs to ramp to do damage…. And if you ever swap off, you have to ramp it up again. It definitely needed more development time.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/10/2024 at 12:57 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

If the cost is little bit too much it can be lowered still, doesn't matter if it's on button 2 or 5.

Unless they done it already in the lesser notes they show the 20th. I hope it is already done though 🫤

It may appear to be a minor nitpick, but it affects keybind layouts. If you're using default binds, 2 is directly above WASD and is usually the easiest or one of the easiest number keys to press, while 5 is a bit further away. Someone who has custom binding, by contrast, has likely set it up on the assumption that the second weapon skill is going to be one of their most commonly pressed buttons (unless they're a thief main where it might be 3, but other revenant weapons do follow this trend). So if Abyssal Raze is intended to be the primary cooldown skill on spear, it would be more player-friendly to place it in the second slot rather than the 5th. Ideally before it gets introduced so people don't have to relearn muscle memory.

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It may appear to be a minor nitpick, but it affects keybind layouts. If you're using default binds, 2 is directly above WASD and is usually the easiest or one of the easiest number keys to press, while 5 is a bit further away. Someone who has custom binding, by contrast, has likely set it up on the assumption that the second weapon skill is going to be one of their most commonly pressed buttons (unless they're a thief main where it might be 3, but other revenant weapons do follow this trend). So if Abyssal Raze is intended to be the primary cooldown skill on spear, it would be more player-friendly to place it in the second slot rather than the 5th. Ideally before it gets introduced so people don't have to relearn muscle memory.

I have my keys binded all close to each other, I am not using the default. Imo it's better to rekeybind, it's there as option. So I don't see why anet has to put it on another key, if players have the option to adjust it themself where it's easier to press....

 

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

 people don't have to relearn muscle memory.

I am a robot because I easily did it? Come on this aint that hard...

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I have my keys binded all close to each other, I am not using the default. Imo it's better to rekeybind, it's there as option. So I don't see why anet has to put it on another key, if players have the option to adjust it themself where it's easier to press....

 

As I said, even people using keybinds are likely to have it laid out in a way that acknowledges that you're normally using the weapon skill in the second slot more often than the fifth slot.

And some people do still use the default - it is the default, after all - so it would make sense to plan things out to at least make that less awkward.

16 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I am a robot because I easily did it? Come on this aint that hard...

Bully for you. I've seen plenty of people complaining about having to relearn muscle memory when skills are moved, so while you're not a robot, perhaps it is that people are different and your experience isn't universal?

[Jobber.6348]

On 8/11/2024 at 7:08 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

I am a robot because I easily did it? Come on this aint that hard...

When it comes to quality of life, the minority should never be the focus. You unfortunately, are the minority who think it feels fine on Spear 5. For a large part of the community, it feels bad on 5. This thread alone has many people showing displeasure and discomfort to having the prime skill be both Area target AND on 5 AND demands to be cast in rapid succession. 

Also regarding keybinds, the game's QoL should always focus on the default key-set so that it caters to the most players who play the game and not to those that have a fancy mouse rebind that makes their skill casting "fine" 

I think it's an entirely reasonable desire for Spear 5 to be moved to 2. Usually 5 slot keys are reserved for high cooldown and impact skills in which I feel Abyssal Blot deserves to be on Spear 5 instead and you can simply move Spear 2 to the 4 slot, allowing Abyssal Raze to take the 2 key. 

Mind you, this is if they intend to keep the spammy nature of the weapon (which let's be real, is gonna be the case) and so, this sort of QoL must be talked about now instead of later. 

[arazoth.7290]

21 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

When it comes to quality of life, the minority should never be the focus. You unfortunately, are the minority who think it feels fine on Spear 5. For a large part of the community, it feels bad on 5. This thread alone has many people showing displeasure and discomfort to having the prime skill be both Area target AND on 5 AND demands to be cast in rapid succession. 

Also regarding keybinds, the game's QoL should always focus on the default key-set so that it caters to the most players who play the game and not to those that have a fancy mouse rebind that makes their skill casting "fine" 

I think it's an entirely reasonable desire for Spear 5 to be moved to 2. Usually 5 slot keys are reserved for high cooldown and impact skills in which I feel Abyssal Blot deserves to be on Spear 5 instead and you can simply move Spear 2 to the 4 slot, allowing Abyssal Raze to take the 2 key. 

Mind you, this is if they intend to keep the spammy nature of the weapon (which let's be real, is gonna be the case) and so, this sort of QoL must be talked about now instead of later. 

Well tbh I don't mind myself if they would do that or not, but if it's really that big of a deal for many, okee then

[Jobber.6348]

Still praying they ditch the design. It's really so much action for no reason for a weapon. The amount of activity this weapon demands is on the same level as a whole Elite spec for some professions. It's really too complex for no observable benefit based off the beta try-outs. 

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

On 8/11/2024 at 1:06 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

I have my keys binded all close to each other, I am not using the default. Imo it's better to rekeybind, it's there as option. So I don't see why anet has to put it on another key, if players have the option to adjust it themself where it's easier to press....

 

Rebindink keys is NOT an option cause it rebinds it for literally every other weapon / class in the game. The skill should just be moved to either 2 or 3.

[arazoth.7290]

56 minutes ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

Rebindink keys is NOT an option cause it rebinds it for literally every other weapon / class in the game. The skill should just be moved to either 2 or 3.

I am not going to say anything on this one anymore except, if ppl have problems really with it then it's fine for me eitherway. I just thought it wasn't that it wasn't that big of  a deal 

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

54 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I am not going to say anything on this one anymore except, if ppl have problems really with it then it's fine for me eitherway. I just thought it wasn't that it wasn't that big of  a deal 

Aye, didn't mean to sound like an attack or anything, sorry. 

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

Aye, didn't mean to sound like an attack or anything, sorry. 

dw

[arazoth.7290]

Abyssal Blitz:

I saw ln stream that it gives now 1 portal to denotate. I wonder what else they did to it, I hope atleast a lot more aoe on it then and well.. more condi

[Shagie.7612]

It's not a lot, but there was a little bit of a playtest for content creators and some of the spear changes were on there.
You can see a little clip of how fast spear is on the 5 and autoattack here:

Given that the 4 also pulls immediately, that speed is quite nice too.

Edited August 14 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

13 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's not a lot, but there was a little bit of a playtest for content creators and some of the spear changes were on there.
You can see a little clip of how fast spear is on the 5 and autoattack here:

Given that the 4 also pulls immediately, that speed is quite nice too.

Abyssal Blitz, the evade. It now gives 1 orb it seems, I wonder what they did to it overall then

[Shagie.7612]

24 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Abyssal Blitz, the evade. It now gives 1 orb it seems, I wonder what they did to it overall then

Given how inconsistent it was during the test we had, that could also just be a terrain issue or something.

We'll probably have to wait on that tbh

[Jobber.6348]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's not a lot, but there was a little bit of a playtest for content creators and some of the spear changes were on there.
You can see a little clip of how fast spear is on the 5 and autoattack here:

Given that the 4 also pulls immediately, that speed is quite nice too.

Speed is so much better. That's a good sign. 

I can see it being more usable in PvE at least, though I still want it in my hands to feel the casting. It's about the same cast speed as a Scourge Shade so I guess that shouldn't be too hard if you kite with it. Definitely has strong kiting feel to it. 

I can see immediately that it might synergize well with Archemorus. You just hit that Scavenger Burst > Abyssal Raze. Sped up by Quickness would be much better and Burning from Scavenger Burst as your 2nd sustained Condi damage source would be quite good for sustained damage. 

Yea idk how that Spear 3 looks. Maybe buggy? Maybe he didn't pull out the maximum length of the skill? Hope it's not a nerf, we barely had a chance to see what it's capable of. 

[Shagie.7612]

7 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Definitely has strong kiting feel to it

I'm assuming they didn't change it to require facing on any of the skills.

If you can still toss everything behind you, AND it later gets bumped up to 900 (or possibly even if it doesn't, we'll have to see how 600 works I guess), it's got actual damaging condi spread, and it has essentially no problem with projectile hate, meaning you can actually press buttons against lobbies with say, supp Chrono, Ele, War in it, then it could easily end up essentially covering all the current weaknesses condi builds have.

Which is pretty cool, imo, cause I think it's quite lame that currently all 3 elites want to play essentially the same thing (power hammer).

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Speed is so much better. That's a good sign. 

I can see it being more usable in PvE at least, though I still want it in my hands to feel the casting. It's about the same cast speed as a Scourge Shade so I guess that shouldn't be too hard if you kite with it. Definitely has strong kiting feel to it. 

I can see immediately that it might synergize well with Archemorus. You just hit that Scavenger Burst > Abyssal Raze. Sped up by Quickness would be much better and Burning from Scavenger Burst as your 2nd sustained Condi damage source would be quite good for sustained damage. 

Yea idk how that Spear 3 looks. Maybe buggy? Maybe he didn't pull out the maximum length of the skill? Hope it's not a nerf, we barely had a chance to see what it's capable of. 

It'd be nice to see spear actually work with Archie. Getting it to work with vindi traits would be complex, but with a condi build you'd probably be taking one of the defensive dodge traits so it might not be as important to your rotation as with a power build.

[Jobber.6348]

On 8/15/2024 at 2:06 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

It'd be nice to see spear actually work with Archie. Getting it to work with vindi traits would be complex, but with a condi build you'd probably be taking one of the defensive dodge traits so it might not be as important to your rotation as with a power build.

Most likely Imperial Impact for Might uptime and Protection. It's a good GM, and still applies Chill in PvE. Would be nice if it still applied Chill in competitive. 

[draxynnic.3719]

15 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Most likely Imperial Impact for Might uptime and Protection. It's a good GM, and still applies Chill in PvE. Would be nice if it still applied Chill in competitive. 

Yeah, when I made that post I had been about to comment about them killing it when they removed chill (and therefore Abyssal Chill), and then I checked and realised it did still have it in PvE.

It is still, though, ironically making spear feel much more like a Mallyx weapon... just make the effects purple-black instead of red-black and it'd probably feel more like a Mallyx weapon than mace/axe does.

[Jobber.6348]

8 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It is still, though, ironically making spear feel much more like a Mallyx weapon... just make the effects purple-black instead of red-black and it'd probably feel more like a Mallyx weapon than mace/axe does.

It probably is, which is why you have the whole weapon initially designed slow. 

 

Any seasoned Rev player could see right away that the gameplay path that Anet wanted to push you down was:

- Have 3 Raze Charges ready

main mobbing/PvP combo:

CTA > Raze > CTA > Raze > CTA > Raze 

Spear 2 to recharge Raze 

Spear 3 as defensive 

Spear 4 to catch people if CTA can't quite reach them 

On paper, it makes sense

In practice, it's so energy taxing, so unwieldy, so clunky. Against anything that isn't a target dummy just running at you, it's an incredibly horrid experience.

Edited August 16 by Jobber.6348

[draxynnic.3719]

Even on paper, a little bit of maths shows that expecting that many CTAs in quick succession will run you dry. I suspect the intent is for some of the grouping up/CCs to come from allies, and you don't need to be in the blob yourself to Raze. But even in ideal circumstances, it's a condition build that naturally involves a bit of ramping time, and then it adds an additional ramping mechanic on top of that...