Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Necromancer

[Xaylin.1860]

I tested all Spears in a rather casual PvE setting. So this is more of a first impression than a thorough assessment.

The skills are fine and the visuals are alright as well. I first was very interested in the teleport and the boon hate - which of course is more PvP focussed. But at least in PvP, it at best felt like a hybrid of GS and Swords. I'm not sure if I had preferred it being condi. But yet another power weapon isn't too exciting either. I didn't feel the LF drain too much but my build brought enough. So maybe that's why I didn't mind. Not at total miss but at least for PvE nothing new.

What I definitely dislike: Yet another stacking unique boon. Death Magic Harbingers look ridiculous. It also seemed to fall off quite quickly.

[Vooksa.2941]

I made a thread talking about my expectations for Necro spear as soon as it was teased, and expected to hate it, but I had a reasonable amount of fun with it in actual play. Like most other spears, it's surprisingly flexible on Core builds; using a Relic of Peitha for shadowstep-DPS combos with the shadowstep available on core shroud. But that's where my praise ends.

Much like how swords were designed to overlap and compete with axe/focus as an existing 1H niche for midrange, boon corruption, fear, and chill, with healing no one asked for and unsupported health consume traits, spear seems deadset on competing with greatsword, as a melee-range power 2H with chill on it, but again, tacks on a healing mechanic that nobody asked for.

(I actually thought there might be space for a hybrid application, using Curses, bleed on crit, fury entering shroud, bonus crit per condition and bonus condi per precision, Enfeeble entering shroud, and crits inflict weakness, but the weapon's frontloaded bonus damage below enemy health threshold means you either kill foes immediately, or fail to kill on the burst and are left with boggy CDs that compel you to weaponswap.)

Ultimately, the weapon is fine. But it's JUST fine. It feels like a low bar was hurdled, rather than something someone was inspired to make, a grab-bag of features that still somehow doesn't successfully create a new gameplay outlet for most Necromancer builds that aren't "enter shroud and burst down to win", which has been supported for years, using the exact same traits that spear is expected to use to do it's damage as well.

• Spear, like greatsword, deals a ton of damage through out-of-shroud spam, but if spear was meant to reward regular flickering into and out of shroud, spear should have had a mechanic that reduced the CD of entering shroud. Possibly, -1s per soul shard consumed. On-entry traits are still controlled by iCD, and Core/Reaper/Scourge still need LF to enter/stay in shroud, but Harbinger could see unique use on account of actually gaining LF when allowed to enter shroud. It'd be nicer if there was some other Harb feature for on-enter shroud or a non-damage value for using shroud skills like boons or healing, rather than multiple mechanics rewarding Harb for staying in shroud, but that's a separate issue.
• Health-sustain weapon tech on the most beefy profession in the game is a joke. Instead, have swords and spear generate LF, not healing and not low-threshold healing, and redesign Blood Magic to use LF as a source of healing. [Overflowing Thirst] converts a percentage of your LF gain into self-healing, and [Life From Death] or [Last Rites] could grant their threshold-based bonus healing power based on your current LF amount, with bonus LF gained if at maximum LF already. Combos with [Blood Bank], makes LF generation not meaningless to have 'too much' of, creates a unique useage case where spear is actually more comparable to mainhand dagger as a self-sustain weapon, than greatsword, and enables a playstyle for non-shroud dependency, allowing for shroud to be played with as a not-irreplaceable elite spec tool.
• (Speaking of separate issues, and if we wanted to go REALLY crazy: Harbinger has no LF pool, LF is gained as healing, and shroud skills cannibalizes your health instead of LF. Blight inflicts damage over time, not health reduction or healing. For Harb to be peak, it destroys itself, and so needs to more meaningfully trade into self-sustain or find allies. Swords, spear, and daggers become a sustain tool, double-dipping for healing when using the above Blood Magic changes.)
• But absolutely insane suggestions aside, back on the topic of spear. Soul Shards is an interesting idea, but without being tied to an elite spec to use traits to choose if it gives us bonus damage, healing, or inflict conditions, it's a bit... iffy. If Perforate included "Soul shards that strike a weakened foe inflict bleeding" would not only be thematically relevant, but help marry spear in to the various bonuses in Curses, and help placate the hybrid/condi-enjoyers a little, while allowing some lasting benefits from the burst against enemies who didn't die from it.
• Extirpate is an interesting experiment, but ultimately falls short. Grant it a non-staff mark as well: "Perform a wide swing that inscribes a mark. Foes struck by the initial attack, or who trigger the mark, have 3 boons removed and gain 3 Extirpation, plus 1 Extirpation per boon removed, and grant you 1 might and 1 soul shard per foe struck. If Extirpation is allowed to expire, it inflicts a follow up attack, inflicting 2s of poison." This would create an outlet for Soul Reaping's [Soul Marks], unblockable and bonus LF, help with zoning in competitive if you don't cast it in the middle of a zerg or miss, and has PvE value against bosses beyond the initial damaging swing.

So, again. Necro spear is fine, but it's JUST fine. It doesn't engage with Necro's tech enough to create a great new niche use, and it only does that one new niche well, and everything else is something we already had enough of. Some of that problem is because of Necro's traits not promoting new playstyles, but I don't have a lot of faith those will change at all, much less change any time soon, or before the expansion. Cranking the damage doesn't help this one, because it already hits like a truck when used for that aforementioned niche case, and neither will reducing the CDs or increasing the range. Like swords before it, I really feel like the issues with this one can't be solved by simple number fixes, and it'll be tossed aside as a one-trick spike-stick.

[Provocative.3561]

I think the item is pretty niche overall. Only recommendations would be increase the range of spear skill 2 and 3. Everything is pretty good considering the niche part

[Tilastik.8193]

Some feedback about the necro spear. All melee spear skills (auto attack also) should have at least 200 range.

Auto-attack should be a little bit faster and generate more life force. Reduce the auto chain by .5 sec and increase the life force generation by 1%.

Skill #2 (Perforate): each strike should apply 1 stack of vulnerability. Soul shards also need to last a little bit longer

Skill #3 (Addle): add cripple to the base skill, and increase base life force generation.

Skill #4 (Isolate/Distress) : I would prefer a dash and stab attack similar to Engineer's Conduit Surge (skill #2); but the skills are fine, maybe increase the isolate spear's speed.

Skill #5 (Extirpate): Make it a flip-over skill. On first cast, taunt nearby enemies and block incoming attacks. On second cast (extirpate), strike enemies and apply 1 stack of extirpation per attack blocked (minimum 3).

[Genesis.8572]

It needs to be Condi Melee and not Power YET ANOTHER Power Melee. 

[Armageddeon.1795]

Just adding my thoughts on the spear:

After testing, I'm really concerned about the 120 range.  I don't think the lunge is going to be enough to keep the necro on the target. I'd like to see the spear add a range component to help this similar to the ranger and thief. This way, even if the target is out of range, necros are doing something.

Another concern is the ability to land perforate. A stun or immobilizer on one of the higher cooldown skills like the 4 or 5 could help set this up...actually, what if the lunge had a brief, stun/immobilizing component? It would help set up the next attack.

[Bale.3851]

21 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

Definitely the highest dps spear of the bunch.  Felt good to me, and worked so well, I didn't feel any learning curve, and quickly moved on to the other professions.

How so? While i dont doubt your feelings but how is it high dps? I tested it on golem with every buff and got like 24k dps as power reaper which is pretty low. While hybrids like engi were like 34k dps. Just wondering where the feeling of high dps stems from and no offense to you just curiosity.

[Bale.3851]

21 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

Definitely the highest dps spear of the bunch.  Felt good to me, and worked so well, I didn't feel any learning curve, and quickly moved on to the other professions.

How so? While i dont doubt your feelings but how is it high dps? I tested it on golem with every buff and got like 24k dps as power reaper which is pretty low. While hybrids like engi were like 34k dps. Just wondering where the feeling of high dps stems from and no offense to you just curiosity.

[Matt H.6142]

16 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

How so? While i dont doubt your feelings but how is it high dps? I tested it on golem with every buff and got like 24k dps as power reaper which is pretty low. While hybrids like engi were like 34k dps. Just wondering where the feeling of high dps stems from and no offense to you just curiosity.

In PVE, everything just seemed to melt.  My benchmark was one of the 4 Elite Kryptis generals by the Heitor’s gate portal.  Bit more of a challenge than the golem.  Reaper with spear.  Maybe you might say most of the damage was the spec but it killed the elite the quickest.  Mesmer Mirage was probably close but was more work.

[Josif.2015]

Dark Slash, Deadly Slice, Sinister Stab: reduce the cast time on Dark Slash from 0.75 to 0.50 seconds.
Perforate: no changes needed.
Addle: reduce the Life Force you gain when an enemy is using a skill from 20% to 15% and reduce the daze duration when you interrupt an enemy from 1.5 to 1 seconds.
Isolate: remove the unblockable effect.
Distress: reduce the number of additional shards from 3 to 2.
Extirpate: no changes needed.

[Bale.3851]

On 7/2/2024 at 6:46 PM, Matt H.6142 said:

In PVE, everything just seemed to melt.  My benchmark was one of the 4 Elite Kryptis generals by the Heitor’s gate portal.  Bit more of a challenge than the golem.  Reaper with spear.  Maybe you might say most of the damage was the spec but it killed the elite the quickest.  Mesmer Mirage was probably close but was more work.

Do u mean PVE = Open World? Dont get me wrong but nearly everything melts there. To get reliable data you have to compare meta speccs with every boon on golem to get an idea where the celing is if you do everything perfectly. And here is my problem with necro spear: While i really like the cd reset mechanic cause its good game design when u have chose whether you want more sustain aka shroud or more mobility aka leaving shroud the dmg is super low compared to other spears (hybrids like engi has). Like mentioned before ingi has around 34k dps and necro 24k so around 33% difference (WTF).

Also necro spear is a power weapon so half of the builds you could use already are out. This leaves you with power weapon competition namely GS, Axe, Sword or Dagger. And everyone of these are BETTER dps wise than spear. Thats the problem. No one will use spear in any competitive mode. And thats just sad.

Edited yesterday at 06:12 AM by Bale.3851

[Bale.3851]

9 minutes ago, Josif.2015 said:

Dark Slash, Deadly Slice, Sinister Stab: reduce the cast time on Dark Slash from 0.75 to 0.50 seconds.
Perforate: no changes needed.
Addle: reduce the Life Force you gain when an enemy is using a skill from 20% to 15% and reduce the daze duration when you interrupt an enemy from 1.5 to 1 seconds.
Isolate: remove the unblockable effect.
Distress: reduce the number of additional shards from 3 to 2.
Extirpate: no changes needed.

Just why?

[Batalix.2873]

10 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Just why?

This is some 4D chess, they are using reverse psychology on the balance team.

[Matt H.6142]

10 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Do u mean PVE = Open World? Dont get me wrong but nearly everything melts there. To get reliable data you have to compare meta speccs with every boon on golem to get an idea where the celing is if you do everything perfectly. And here is my problem with necro spear: While i really like the cd reset mechanic cause its good game design when u have chose whether you want more sustain aka shroud or more mobility aka leaving shroud the dmg is super low compared to other spears (hybrids like engi has). Like mentioned before ingi has around 34k dps and necro 24k so around 33% difference (WTF).

Also spear is a power weapon so half of the builds you could use already are out. This leaves you with power weapon competition namely GS, Axe, Sword or Dagger. And everyone of these are BETTER dps wise than spear. Thats the problem. No one will use spear in any competitive mode. And thats just sad.

That’s so weird to me.  Engi was the biggest struggle and the slowest to beat that same mob for me (in that default carrion stats and core traits and condi holo traits)   Marauder sw/sh holo didn’t give me the same grief, probably because of the heat bonuses on sword.  Fairest thing for me to say is I do play open world solo mostly so that’s my frame of reference. 

[Bale.3851]

23 hours ago, Matt H.6142 said:

That’s so weird to me.  Engi was the biggest struggle and the slowest to beat that same mob for me (in that default carrion stats and core traits and condi holo traits)   Marauder sw/sh holo didn’t give me the same grief, probably because of the heat bonuses on sword.  Fairest thing for me to say is I do play open world solo mostly so that’s my frame of reference. 

Maybe cause u played marauder. Highest dps is hybrid build. So you are missing the condi dmg.