A Humble Request, please make Heal Vindicator PvE Viable.

[Arenir.1032]

Heal Vindicator is currently non-viable is PvE because of it's failure to provide Quickness or Alacrity. Would it be possible to remedy this through splitting the PvE variant of the skill? This can be done very easily by giving Scavenger Burst a target cap of 5 allies. Any other suggestions or thoughts on the topic are appreciated. It's currently my favorite thing to play in the game right now, but I'm essentially locked to the spec in only WvW and PvP. I've played the build in Open World as well, but I can't help but feel guilty about playing a support that's not providing any relevant boons.

[Jobber.6348]

We already have Herald for BoonHealer Support and Renegade for AlacDPS (or AlacHealer), I doubt Anet is going to entertain a third.

And besides, putting it on Scavenger Burst is just going to make people play BoonDPS Vindicator instead of Heal Vindicator who needs to juggle that 3s CD Alliance Tactics to apply their essential boon, then wait 3s to go back into Vik, then swap back again in 3s to apply essential boon... no thanks man. It's gonna be so messy to maintain anything at all. 

Heal Vindicator is an excellent GvG healer right now. I think that's fine. 

 

[Angesombre.4630]

Then I thought they could put alacrity on vindicator with a trait for heal and make it just for PvE. You can see they've done that for hearld with quickness and other professions.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

On 7/12/2024 at 10:08 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

We already have Herald for BoonHealer Support and Renegade for AlacDPS (or AlacHealer), I doubt Anet is going to entertain a third.

And besides, putting it on Scavenger Burst is just going to make people play BoonDPS Vindicator instead of Heal Vindicator who needs to juggle that 3s CD Alliance Tactics to apply their essential boon, then wait 3s to go back into Vik, then swap back again in 3s to apply essential boon... no thanks man. It's gonna be so messy to maintain anything at all. 

Heal Vindicator is an excellent GvG healer right now. I think that's fine. 

 

Heal renegade is not viable. Alac DPS isn't viable either since you have to give up DPS to even be able to keep Alac up.

[Jobber.6348]

9 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Heal renegade is not viable. Alac DPS isn't viable either since you have to give up DPS to even be able to keep Alac up.

I wasn't aware of any sweeping changes that suddenly killed Renegade's ability to be an essential boon role so my knowledge on the matter may be rusty. Even so, wouldn't the solution be to fix that up instead of shoving utility onto ONLY ONE HALF of Alliance? 

If the idea is to turn Vindicator into an Essential boon provider, imo a much better way to do it is via the dodge, which is just shared between all manner of builds and is in fact part of rotation no matter the Vindicator build.

Just a spitball idea:

Say maybe Song of Arboreum additionally allows your dodge to now provide Alacrity, and when Energy Meld is activated, it extends boon durations in addition to granting more Alacrity. 

Edited July 15 by Yasai.3549

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

4 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I wasn't aware of any sweeping changes that suddenly killed Renegade's ability to be an essential boon role so my knowledge on the matter may be rusty. Even so, wouldn't the solution be to fix that up instead of shoving utility onto ONLY ONE HALF of Alliance? 

If the idea is to turn Vindicator into an Essential boon provider, imo a much better way to do it is via the dodge, which is just shared between all manner of builds and is in fact part of rotation no matter the Vindicator build.

Just a spitball idea:

Say maybe Song of Arboreum additionally allows your dodge to now provide Alacrity, and when Energy Meld is activated, it extends boon durations in addition to granting more Alacrity. 

Renegade boon role was dead when it was reduced from 10 to 5 targets. And they never had a good healing support role.
I've already suggested what they can do for heal support vindicator in my problem with revenants thread.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Heal renegade is not viable. Alac DPS isn't viable either since you have to give up DPS to even be able to keep Alac up.

Giving up DPS to keep the boon up is typical for boondps in general. Alacren isn't exactly doing great nowadays in general, though. 

On 7/13/2024 at 1:08 PM, Jobber.6348 said:

We already have Herald for BoonHealer Support and Renegade for AlacDPS (or AlacHealer), I doubt Anet is going to entertain a third.

And besides, putting it on Scavenger Burst is just going to make people play BoonDPS Vindicator instead of Heal Vindicator who needs to juggle that 3s CD Alliance Tactics to apply their essential boon, then wait 3s to go back into Vik, then swap back again in 3s to apply essential boon... no thanks man. It's gonna be so messy to maintain anything at all. 

Heal Vindicator is an excellent GvG healer right now. I think that's fine. 

 

It is a bit weird that ArenaNet made what might otherwise be the best healing elite specialisation for revenant, but then made it effectively nonviable in most supported content (GvG is entirely unofficial). IMO it would have made more sense, and would still make more sense, to have made vindicator the quickness source, and to have made herald work as a DPS that also happens to be good at closing gaps in the application of secondary boons. Especially now that sceptre/shield is available to all revenants and sceptre has nothing to do with Glint.

[mirage.8046]

could you imagine how different things could've been had quickness vindicator been thought over quickness herald? not like it matters now, but the animations and elusive playstyle work well, especially with quickness. Of course, that'd be assuming Anet never retroactively gave Herald quickness haha. 

Honestly, I miss the old alacrity vindicator when it was not only sharing boons through Ventari, Jalis, or Archemorus + Viktor, but also extending said boons by dodging. Of course, no one talks about how fun that build was, but it was a creative fun build before Anet axed alacrity from Salvation's grandmaster minor.

alacrity renegade was godly once upon a time before they removed 10-man alacrity, not to mention it had assassin's presence through devastation. I would rather see support renegade become more useful instead of becoming undesirable and isolated, whether it is healer, power dps, or alacrity dps. I don't know how many people would scream about 'Alacren jail,' but it'd be nice to give love to renegade instead of being forgotten.

in PvE, alacren has been largely obsoleted ever since EOD especs came out; other classes have cool flavors, strong utilities, and are easy to play. heal vindicator is cool in its rights but unless anet gives it one of the special boons, heal vindi won't be used in PvE.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, mirage.8046 said:

I don't know how many people would scream about 'Alacren jail,' but it'd be nice to give love to renegade instead of being forgotten.

Shouldn't be any. There are enough practical quickness and alacrity builds that jails really shouldn't be a thing any more, unless you're progging HTCM or something.

[arazoth.7290]

Suggestion Urn Vindicator to solve urn problems/making it overall available support more: 

•Upkeep urn part:

- Remove the no incoming healing while urn upkeep is active.

- Urn upkeep healing will be only give outgoing healing. This is to not get lotsss of passive sustain only to be nerfed...

- 33% damage reduction on all damage stays while on for self sustain + increased self Mobility stays too.

-You should be able reapply upkeep Urn when denotate part is on cd.

•Denotate urn part:

Remove the health% amount required to put different lvls of urn denotate effectiveness.

- Let Urn denotate like currently if 25% Hp 15 seconds regen, 4 seconds protection, 4 seconds resistance boon. Without the 25% HP requirement ofcourse. So it has always a reliable effect

Add alacrity on this for pve and for WvW/PvP little bit vigor.

-Since it always goes to highest effectiveness useage now, give it in pve 5 second cd (with alac use it's slightly lower). PvP/WvW cd doesn't need change on it then.

 

Additional vindicator suggestions:

- heals 0,5-0,75 seconds cast time each instead of 1,25 seconds each...

- Alliance Tactics for PvP/WvW 5 seconds cd to switch in between. You can switch more to what you need from your entire alliance stance before switching to your other core stance.

 

[Jobber.6348]

7 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Suggestion Urn Vindicator to solve urn problems/making it overall available support more: 

•Upkeep urn part:

- Remove the no incoming healing while urn upkeep is active.

- Urn upkeep healing will be only give outgoing healing. This is to not get lotsss of passive sustain only to be nerfed...

- 33% damage reduction on all damage stays while on for self sustain + increased self Mobility stays too.

-You should be able reapply upkeep Urn when denotate part is on cd.

•Denotate urn part:

Remove the health% amount required to put different lvls of urn denotate effectiveness.

- Let Urn denotate like currently if 25% Hp 15 seconds regen, 4 seconds protection, 4 seconds resistance boon. Without the 25% HP requirement ofcourse. So it has always a reliable effect

Add alacrity on this for pve and for WvW/PvP little bit vigor.

-Since it always goes to highest effectiveness useage now, give it in pve 5 second cd (with alac use it's slightly lower). PvP/WvW cd doesn't need change on it then.

 

Additional vindicator suggestions:

- heals 0,5-0,75 seconds cast time each instead of 1,25 seconds each...

- Alliance Tactics for PvP/WvW 5 seconds cd to switch in between. You can switch more to what you need from your entire alliance stance before switching to your other core stance.

 

Dam can't wait to make people huddle within 360 range as I keep desecrating the ashes of my ancestors by slamming that pot into the floor every 2 seconds.

 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

2 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Dam can't wait to make people huddle within 360 range as I keep desecrating the ashes of my ancestors by slamming that pot into the floor every 2 seconds.

 

Not even sure what it says cause I use dark mode and that white background he puts on makes reading that text harder. Tend to ignore those posts he makes like that because of that very reason.

Edited July 15 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[arazoth.7290]

36 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Dam can't wait to make people huddle within 360 range as I keep desecrating the ashes of my ancestors by slamming that pot into the floor every 2 seconds.

 

pvp and wvw are still 10 seconds and pve a smaller but still some cd, it can't be spammed then but the effectiveness is there for what it should do. Spamming 1 skill mainly a lot would be bad design.

That's why I wrote earlier this in what ypu quoted me in ==>"Since it always goes to highest effectiveness useage now, give it in pve 5 second cd (with alac use it's slightly lower). PvP/WvW cd doesn't need change on it then."

 

[arazoth.7290]

Also 360 radius is still larger then some boons on certain classes that get applied, not everything can be easy 600 radius Herald boons. 360 radius is large enough

[arazoth.7290]

40 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Not even sure what it says cause I use dark mode and that white background he puts on makes reading that text harder. Tend to ignore those posts he makes like that because of that very reason.

I have no idea what you're talking about, I would change it if I know what you're seeing or how to change that annoying white. I see every text here in white background so no idea, if I figure it out I will change it 👌

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

I can't post you an image of what I see because images are not allowed or hyper links. If you are writing in note pad or something or some other site, it's copying the background there.

Edited July 15 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Angesombre.4630]

32 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

pvp and wvw are still 10 seconds and pve a smaller but still some cd, it can't be spammed then but the effectiveness is there for what it should do. Spamming 1 skill mainly a lot would be bad design.

That's why I wrote earlier this in what ypu quoted me in ==>"Since it always goes to highest effectiveness useage now, give it in pve 5 second cd (with alac use it's slightly lower). PvP/WvW cd doesn't need change on it then."

 

F2 vindicator

I'm nostalgic for Song of Arboreum and alacrity with ventari.

[arazoth.7290]

51 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

F2 vindicator

I'm nostalgic for Song of Arboreum and alacrity with ventari.

I don't mind it on this button either, just on something that makes sense.👌

But my point for making urn mechanical better stands, even if no alac boon is on this

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

45 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I don't mind it on this button either, just on something that makes sense.👌

But my point for making urn mechanical better stands, even if no alac boon is on this

Urn mechanic would make alac for vindicator pretty impossible for DPS vindi then.

[Angesombre.4630]

Then it would be more for the heal support side, but yes, a heal without a bit of dps, if only we had a good weapon with the stick for support and a bit of dps like a one-handed weapon that could go with the shield...

[arazoth.7290]

23 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Urn mechanic would make alac for vindicator pretty impossible for DPS vindi then.

mmmm for heal it would be no problem that's for sure.

For dps vindi in pve it could maybe work tbf => because you can switch stances in alliance stance for red side/blue side because really low cd on it. It would be a little more hassle yes if someone tries to make dps alac.

But I think in the end it wouldn't be that difficult, unless we compare it to quickness dps Herald which gets it really easy. 

[Jobber.6348]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

mmmm for heal it would be no problem that's for sure.

For dps vindi in pve it could maybe work tbf => because you can switch stances in alliance stance for red side/blue side because really low cd on it. It would be a little more hassle yes if someone tries to make dps alac.

But I think in the end it wouldn't be that difficult, unless we compare it to quickness dps Herald which gets it really easy. 

The point is tying Essential boon to one half of one legend is a rather suffocating implementation that is very biased in design. Renegade doesn't do this, and Herald doesn't do this either, their Essential Boons can be accessed anytime as long as you either push a button or turn on an Upkeep. 

Making Song of Arboreum provide Alacrity makes the most sense to me so that the player can continue using Death Drop or Vassals for Prot and Might or Saint for Barrier and Heal.

My proposal is this:

Song Of Arboreum

- Your dodges now provide Alacrity in a 360 radius

On Activation of Energy Meld:

- Grant Vigor to yourself and nearby allies

- Next dodge is empowered to Extend Boon Duration for 3s in a 360 radius

I think this is for the best, making the Essential Boon simply come out via normal Vindicator play, but you sacrifice Reaver's Curse for it. 

 

Additional changes that can be considered:

- Death Drop is now a Leap Finisher after the dodge is completed

- Saint of Zu Heltzer is now a Blast Finisher

- Urn of the Saint now leaves a Water Field behind after smashing

I feel like this is needed after Vindicato's gutting, especially in PvE and PvP. 

Having Blast Finisher on a heal dodge is pretty nice to have if we can create Water Fields with Urn and increases the uses of Karakosa. And for PvP, having the player use their Death Drop to Leap Finisher the Urn smash Water Field is healthier than going Urn Smashing as you run away every 2 seconds but isn't so suffocating that you are stuck with 2 bad heals and a 10 second cooldown heal that isn't even that strong. 

Edited July 15 by Jobber.6348

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

The point is tying Essential boon to one half of one legend is a rather suffocating implementation that is very biased in design. Renegade doesn't do this, and Herald doesn't do this either, their Essential Boons can be accessed anytime as long as you either push a button or turn on an Upkeep. 

Making Song of Arboreum provide Alacrity makes the most sense to me so that the player can continue using Death Drop or Vassals for Prot and Might or Saint for Barrier and Heal.

My proposal is this:

Song Of Arboreum

- Your dodges now provide Alacrity in a 360 radius

On Activation of Energy Meld:

- Grant Vigor to yourself and nearby allies

- Next dodge is empowered to Extend Boon Duration for 3s in a 360 radius

I think this is for the best, making the Essential Boon simply come out via normal Vindicator play, but you sacrifice Reaver's Curse for it. 

 

Additional changes that can be considered:

- Death Drop is now a Leap Finisher after the dodge is completed

- Saint of Zu Heltzer is now a Blast Finisher

- Urn of the Saint now leaves a Water Field behind after smashing

I feel like this is needed after Vindicato's gutting, especially in PvE and PvP. 

Having Blast Finisher on a heal dodge is pretty nice to have if we can create Water Fields with Urn and increases the uses of Karakosa. And for PvP, having the player use their Death Drop to Leap Finisher the Urn smash Water Field is healthier than going Urn Smashing as you run away every 2 seconds but isn't so suffocating that you are stuck with 2 bad heals and a 10 second cooldown heal that isn't even that strong. 

Like I said, I am fine with alac on Arboreum too. It's easier to use yes.

About urn mechanics, it's still too rng depending on the player his own HP %. The self no incoming healing while urn upkeep is active is too punishing too. And water field would be nice + blast finisher would make sense with the smash

[draxynnic.3719]

Alacrity on dragoon jumping would be a bit like alacmirage without being forced to double up on a specific weapon. Would also have the benefit of the alac source being something that's not directly reliant on alacrity, which is an approach I prefer from a design standpoint.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Alacrity on dragoon jumping would be a bit like alacmirage without being forced to double up on a specific weapon. Would also have the benefit of the alac source being something that's not directly reliant on alacrity, which is an approach I prefer from a design standpoint.

Alac Mirage doesn't have to double up on weapons. Never understood that logic. Just need to trigger the dodge on CD basically and you do that by putting more mirrors into your build and using those on CD as well. You might be thinking of Untamed Ranger's.