A Chat w/ Roy and Cecil About WvW Development Goals

[Sheff.4851]

Just now, Hesione.9412 said:

Reset is always high. Wait until middle of the week.

My mistake, I thought when you said "And how has the number of players and their playing time changed in the last year? 😉" we were talking about overall activity, not mid-week activity specifically.

[Reztek.7805]

4 minutes ago, Gahagan.4302 said:

NA has five tiers instead of four, and still, every one of our maps were queued on reset last night for about an hour and a half, so I'd say that number of players and playing time is much higher, just doing some napkin math on it.

So you play in every tier? Interesting. EU has a queue of 10 players on 1 out of 4 maps for 15 minutes during primetime. (Of course the tier i am is representative for every other tier too! :D)

But feel free to try again.

And btw. 4 queued maps on reset are nonexistent.

Edited July 20 by Reztek.7805

[Sheff.4851]

Just now, Reztek.7805 said:

So you play in every tier? Interesting. EU has a queue of 10 players on 1 out of 4 maps for 15 minutes during primetime. (Of course the tier i am is representative for every other tier too! :D)

But feel free to try again.

I am an ArenaNet Partner, so yes, I play in every tier. I'm able to team transfer, and realm transfer, at will.

[Sonderm.4639]

4 minutes ago, Gahagan.4302 said:

These are issues that present themselves to attackers looking at a 50% wall as well -- it's just usually easier for a defender to locate supply than an attacker, given that things like Supply Trap, Burning Oil, and Trebuchet exist, which is why I think it's a change in favor of defending groups. Once somebody's locked out, they have a much harder time getting back in. It's very, very easy to kill 2-3 people manning one catapult to get back to their tag, and it takes those 2-3 people much longer to get back inside once the wall is closed.

Chances are, they won't be looking at a 50% repaired wall though (and again you had the option to repair to 50 (if the sups were there), now you *have to*). I used to watch some of your streams and you are looking at it from the perspective of someone who mostly (exclusively?) runs in squads, usually comped.
But there is a different way to play the game, not saying it is better or worse, but the recent changes (including WR) take the fun out of the gamemode for those players who prefer to cloud, defend structures outnumbered and/or don't care for joining guilds.

[Sheff.4851]

1 minute ago, Sonderm.4639 said:

Chances are, they won't be looking at a 50% repaired wall though (and again you had the option to repair to 50 (if the sups were there), now you *have to*). I used to watch some of your streams and you are looking at it from the perspective of someone who mostly (exclusively?) runs in squads, usually comped.
But there is a different way to play the game, not saying it is better or worse, but the recent changes (including WR) take the fun out of the gamemode for those players who prefer to cloud, defend structures outnumbered and/or don't care for joining guilds.

That's definitely a bias that I have, but I'm making an effort to correct it. I spent about a month pug tagging on SoS pre-Restructuring, just to get some reps in, and I'm trying to find more groups to run with that don't necessarily run comped, though that's a bit of a struggle on NA. There aren't really public tags around these days.

I do think that my perspective as somebody who runs comped squads has some validity though. For example, when we lose keep fights (and it happens often) it's not because there's one devastating push. It's because we slowly bleed off players who aren't on stack, get picked, get knocked off walls, etc, and they can't make it back in if the walls get repaired behind them. Eventually, if we get ground apart inside of an objective, we have to pull off. So that's the defense tactic that I have the most familiarity with, even though I'm usually the one who's on offense instead of defense.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

2 minutes ago, Gahagan.4302 said:

I am an ArenaNet Partner, so yes, I play in every tier. I'm able to team transfer, and realm transfer, at will.

Being able to doesn't mean you actually do.  Playing in every tier would require time and coverage that you don't have.  An understanding of not just playing for an hour in a tier and somehow coming away with a deep understanding of that tier or servers.  You made the same reductive statement earlier "we were talking about overall activity, not mid-week activity specifically.", of course last year would include all activity within the year.  This kind of black hole argument of trying to exclude other experiences of somehow you having some ultimate understanding but of course it is limited in both time and space is not helpful in convincing me or others that you or the team at ArenaNet has a good understanding of player experiences.  Which is fundamentally the problem in the first place, a small group of people making changes without understanding the larger base's concerns, experiences and playing experiences.

[XenesisII.1540]

3 minutes ago, Gahagan.4302 said:

There aren't really public tags around these days.

Which I firmly believe to be another detrimental side effect of boon balling.

[Sheff.4851]

3 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

Being able to doesn't mean you actually do.  Playing in every tier would require time and coverage that you don't have.  An understanding of not just playing for an hour in a tier and somehow coming away with a deep understanding of that tier or servers.  You made the same reductive statement earlier "we were talking about overall activity, not mid-week activity specifically.", of course last year would include all activity within the year.  This kind of black hole argument of trying to exclude other experiences of somehow you having some ultimate understanding but of course it is limited in both time and space is not helpful in convincing me or others that you or the team at ArenaNet has a good understanding of player experiences.  Which is fundamentally the problem in the first place, a small group of people making changes without understanding the larger base's concerns, experiences and playing experiences.

One could argue that "let's talk about whether more or less people are playing, winky face" is a similarly reductive statement. We can have a conversation using information available to us, like the size of queues on maps across multiple tiers (albeit not all of them, you are correct, I don't play in every tier, just 3 of them primarily). Or we can just say things that we think are probably true.

[Sheff.4851]

1 minute ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Which I firmly believe to be another detrimental side effect of boon balling.

I've talked to a number of former public tags, and can really only speak to what they've told me, but what killed their motivation was actually the relinking system. The time that public tags spent investing in players, helping them grow, giving them resources, etc, was a high time cost. With relinks, the people in your squad may not be there two months from now, and knowing that you were training and leading a bunch of people who you may never see again was a motivation killer. Again, at least among the people that I talked to.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Just now, Gahagan.4302 said:

One could argue that "let's talk about whether more or less people are playing, winky face" is a similarly reductive statement. We can have a conversation using information available to us, like the size of queues on maps across multiple tiers (albeit not all of them, you are correct, I don't play in every tier, just 3 of them primarily). Or we can just say things that we think are probably true.

". Or we can just say things that we think are probably true."  They are true.  They are truth to the people who experience it and their truth is just as valid as your narrow experience.  Which goes back to the fundamental problem of a small group of people somehow thinking their "truth" triumphs over others instead of integrating the truth of others.  But that is why you and the team at ArenaNet are not making a convincing argument for the changes or philosophy.  Its why your responses have been so narrow and your only response to others "well that isn't true for me in my narrow time and space".  

[Sheff.4851]

Just now, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

". Or we can just say things that we think are probably true."  They are true.  They are truth to the people who experience it and their truth is just as valid as your narrow experience.  Which goes back to the fundamental problem of a small group of people somehow thinking their "truth" triumphs over others instead of integrating the truth of others.  But that is why you and the team at ArenaNet are not making a convincing argument for the changes or philosophy.  Its why your responses have been so narrow and your only response to others "well that isn't true for me in my narrow time and space".  

What are the raw activity numbers for player activity in the year leading up to, and the month after the launch of Restructuring? I'd be happy to look at actual data about that, because I don't currently have it.

[Hesione.9412]

Just now, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

". Or we can just say things that we think are probably true."  They are true.  They are truth to the people who experience it and their truth is just as valid as your narrow experience.  Which goes back to the fundamental problem of a small group of people somehow thinking their "truth" triumphs over others instead of integrating the truth of others.  But that is why you and the team at ArenaNet are not making a convincing argument for the changes or philosophy.  Its why your responses have been so narrow and your only response to others "well that isn't true for me in my narrow time and space".  

Exactly. I don't enjoy blobs, which is "good" because there aren't any on when I play. Instead, about 5-10 of us, spread across maps, get at least one boonball. The numbers playing during OCX are dropping over time during the week, too. I barely made it into silver 2 last week.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Just now, Gahagan.4302 said:

What are the raw activity numbers for player activity in the year leading up to, and the month after the launch of Restructuring? I'd be happy to look at actual data about that, because I don't currently have it.

Well if you don't have that data and others are telling based on their experiences in playing isn't there, do you think they are lying to you?

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, Gahagan.4302 said:

I've talked to a number of former public tags, and can really only speak to what they've told me, but what killed their motivation was actually the relinking system. The time that public tags spent investing in players, helping them grow, giving them resources, etc, was a high time cost. With relinks, the people in your squad may not be there two months from now, and knowing that you were training and leading a bunch of people who you may never see again was a motivation killer. Again, at least among the people that I talked to.

But those coms also had their own permanent server of players to use. Fights involving boon balling puts additional pressure to always use the right comp, this is also what the training is for, which really if even you don't see those players again after two months, at least you did a service in trying to make those players better and using proper builds and tactics, if they did that anyways, there's plenty of commanders that are terribad and never learn from the lessons either, the blind leading the blind.

But a player like me, will hardly ever tag up as long as there's pressure to run perfect comps.

Now it'll be even worse with WR....

P.S A sample poll on this very question about pugmanding if boon balling didn't exist. Small sample, but would seem to be holding back some players.

 

Edited July 20 by XenesisII.1540

[Sheff.4851]

2 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

Well if you don't have that data and others are telling based on their experiences in playing isn't there, do you think they are lying to you?

I'm just saying that if you want to talk about your experiences, then specify that it's just your personal experiences, instead of implying that player activity overall is down. Talk about, for example, what the queues in your specific matchup are like. That's a legitimate data point.

[Sheff.4851]

Just now, XenesisII.1540 said:

But those coms also had their own permanent server of players to use. Fights involving boon balling puts additional pressure to always use the right comp, this is also what the training is for, which really if even you don't see those players again after two months, at least you did a service in trying to make those players better and using proper builds and tactics, if they did that anyways, there's plenty of commanders that are terribad and never learn from the lessons either, the blind leading the blind.

But a player like me, will hardly ever tag up as long as there's pressure to run perfect comps.

Now it'll be even worse with WR....

That, I can't speak to, because I'm not a public tag. But if by "boon balling" you mean "giving boons", that meta's been around since Seasons. It's not like Stability was a new boon when Firebrand came out -- you had groups running double Guardian in like 2015 because of how important Stability was. Comps are something that public tags have always had to grapple with. I'm not sure that it would have led them to burn out only just now, within the last few years.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Just now, Gahagan.4302 said:

I'm just saying that if you want to talk about your experiences, then specify that it's just your personal experiences, instead of implying that player activity overall is down. Talk about, for example, what the queues in your specific matchup are like. That's a legitimate data point.

You should take your own advice.  They aren't implying anything, it seems to be that you are doing so.  That is more than a "data point", it is a fundamental understanding of  current and past experiences, as well as experiences with player population.  So I think their experience is reflective of player activity being down.  And maybe your data is flawed, your data gathering mechanics are flawed, your philosophy is flawed etc.

[XenesisII.1540]

1 minute ago, Gahagan.4302 said:

That, I can't speak to, because I'm not a public tag. But if by "boon balling" you mean "giving boons", that meta's been around since Seasons. It's not like Stability was a new boon when Firebrand came out -- you had groups running double Guardian in like 2015 because of how important Stability was. Comps are something that public tags have always had to grapple with. I'm not sure that it would have led them to burn out only just now, within the last few years.

Yeah it's been around for quite some time, but right now, it's the strongest it's ever been.

[Hesione.9412]

2 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

You should take your own advice.  They aren't implying anything, it seems to be that you are doing so.  That is more than a "data point", it is a fundamental understanding of  current and past experiences, as well as experiences with player population.  So I think their experience is reflective of player activity being down.  And maybe your data is flawed, your data gathering mechanics are flawed, your philosophy is flawed etc.

Exactly, again. When I play there's never a queue. I can't compare "no queue on any maps this week" to "no queue on any maps the previous week". All I can go by is the number of people who turn up to help defend. And when it's six...

[Sheff.4851]

2 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

You should take your own advice.  They aren't implying anything, it seems to be that you are doing so.  That is more than a "data point", it is a fundamental understanding of  current and past experiences, as well as experiences with player population.  So I think their experience is reflective of player activity being down.  And maybe your data is flawed, your data gathering mechanics are flawed, your philosophy is flawed etc.

That's my bad, I thought I was explicitly presenting it as my own experience when I was talking about how I ran into queues in matchups that I played, and that suggested to me that activity was higher. I'll state my opinions and personal observations more clearly when I make them.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Just now, Gahagan.4302 said:

That's my bad, I thought I was explicitly presenting it as my own experience when I was talking about how I ran into queues in matchups that I played, and that suggested to me that activity was higher. I'll state my opinions and personal observations more clearly when I make them.

I don't think it's bad at all.  Your "bad" isn't in your statements its in your understanding of others experiences.  The point is the integration of others experiences.  Understanding their concerns instead dismissing them as you have done earlier.  It's the same fundamental problem as the WvW and balance team.  That somehow you have some magical data point that disregards their experience.  You don't and the team at ArenaNet doesn't.

[Sheff.4851]

2 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

I don't think it's bad at all.  Your "bad" isn't in your statements its in your understanding of others experiences.  The point is the integration of others experiences.  Understanding their concerns instead dismissing them as you have done earlier.  It's the same fundamental problem as the WvW and balance team.  That somehow you have some magical data point that disregards their experience.  You don't and the team at ArenaNet doesn't.

I know, I'm just surprised, because we talk about that in the video for like 20 minutes. It's one of the things that we spent the most time on. Both specifically, in the context of OCX, SEA, and other off-hours treatment by the algorithm, and then again with regards to talking about the difficulty in balancing and matchmaking within a diverse population of players that all have different goals and different sources of enjoyment in the game. I thought it was a pretty well-covered topic.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Just now, Gahagan.4302 said:

I know, I'm just surprised, because we talk about that in the video for like 20 minutes. It's one of the things that we spent the most time on. Both specifically, in the context of OCX, SEA, and other off-hours treatment by the algorithm, and then again with regards to talking about the difficulty in balancing and matchmaking within a diverse population of players that all have different goals and different sources of enjoyment in the game. I thought it was a pretty well-covered topic.

I listened to it.  I have been listening to ArenaNet philosophy for a long time now, ever since the balance team gave us their philosophy from 2022.  Communication is a two way street.  So I am sure Roy and Cecil can wax and wane forever about what they think is good.  But until they start to listen to others and give other experiences validation it means nothing to me.  I have no confidence in echo chambers.

[Sheff.4851]

I can tell you listened to it, it's why you're giving feedback on the forums, where Roy requested that feedback goes. 🙂

[Chaba.5410]

12 minutes ago, Illustratr.9054 said:

Talk like human please.

You mean like watching the video at least before responding on this thread?