Achievment unlocked: BUTCHERING Spear

[bq pd.2148]

37 minutes ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

I can see it as a kind of balance to other weapons as you mentioned, but this makes spear in my opinion slightly worse than our current alternatives. Reverting the change but increasing initiative in comp modes that you need to land the stealth attack in order to continue successfully would have been a smarter balance

it probably would have been even better to just reduce the stealth duration to 2 seconds. that would also disable 'permanent' stealth with shadow rejuv. and reduce the distance one can sneak up on an enemy with precast stealth.

then again i had already switched off spear again before the nerf for solo roaming.
going through the chain the fastest would be 0.5s+0.5s+ (0.75-0.5)s = 1.25s vulnerable to interrupt/damage/blind to gain the stealth while CnD is only vulnerable for 0.5s.
yet even CnD is usually used on s/d only where you also have a 2 way teleport + evade always on your bar. spear is better compared to d/d build which still has always available evade on the bar + the better stealth access now and how many do we see of those walking about in competitive modes? spear simply can't sustain against players with half a brain.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

54 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

it probably would have been even better to just reduce the stealth duration to 2 seconds. that would also disable 'permanent' stealth with shadow rejuv. and reduce the distance one can sneak up on an enemy with precast stealth.

then again i had already switched off spear again before the nerf for solo roaming.
going through the chain the fastest would be 0.5s+0.5s+ (0.75-0.5)s = 1.25s vulnerable to interrupt/damage/blind to gain the stealth while CnD is only vulnerable for 0.5s.
yet even CnD is usually used on s/d only where you also have a 2 way teleport + evade always on your bar. spear is better compared to d/d build which still has always available evade on the bar + the better stealth access now and how many do we see of those walking about in competitive modes? spear simply can't sustain against players with half a brain.

I agree!

[Geoff Fey.1035]

1 hour ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

Counterplay should always be some active response, not integrated by design.

This has not been true in GW2 since inception--Elite skills typically had incredible effects and long cooldowns, and ICD's in traits are always part of the integrated design.

1 hour ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

I can see it as a kind of balance to other weapons as you mentioned, but this makes spear in my opinion slightly worse than our current alternatives.

Can you please expand on why you see it as worse than current alternatives? I think it heavily depends on build, game mode, and (most of all) playstyle, but at least for PvE Raids it sounds like Spear has outright replaced Staff

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

8 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Can you please expand on why you see it as worse than current alternatives? I think it heavily depends on build, game mode, and (most of all) playstyle, but at least for PvE Raids it sounds like Spear has outright replaced Staff

For PvE I think the change wasn’t actually a big deal to begin with since most NPCs wont actively or reactively try to mess with you directly. Because DPS wasn't touched.

Also most weapons have a way to be at least viable in PvE Encounters, if we are not talking about huge DPS you can still choose to bring your favorite weapon just for the purpose of having fun (unless top 1% raiding etc)

On the other Hand, I don't see a reason why the change was needed in PvE from the beginning. At max it is just more inconvenient than before.

So I am talking mostly form WvW/PvP Point of View.

D/P will still be able to provide more power damage while having a way more reliable stealth option with BP + Leap

For condi D/D, P/X and also Sc/D will most likely not be challenged by spear by that much (might be wrong lets see).

Spear might be the most „defensive“ weapon in a thief‘s arsenal and together with shortbow shares a top place in utility but I don’t think that alone justifies  the nerf. Why? simply because compared to CnD you have the requirement of the attack chain as mentioned earlier as well as the fact that the stealth attack basically loses value if not used after a finisher, which will be the case if you gained stealth through other means.

That are two things which are not true for any other weapon.

[bq pd.2148]

14 minutes ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

as well as the fact that the stealth attack basically loses value if not used after a finisher, which will be the case if you gained stealth through other means.

this is not quite true.

the lets say 'recently finished' effect is only consumed by spear skills.
thats why you wont use shattering assault in deadeye loop unless you ran out of stolen skills etc. , you still gain ini from stealth attack not just m7.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

this is not quite true.

the lets say 'recently finished' effect is only consumed by spear skills.
thats why you wont use shattering assault in deadeye loop unless you ran out of stolen skills etc. , you still gain ini from stealth attack not just m7.

technically you dont gain ini by stealth attrack but by reach max malice, but i get the point of course 😉
I would argue that this is more of a balance issue with m7 that should be solved rather then nerfing every weapon due to m7 existence

[bq pd.2148]

12 minutes ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

technically you dont gain ini by stealth attrack but by reach max malice, but i get the point of course 😉

yes you gain ini when reaching max malice from m7, thats why i said 'you still gain ini from the stealth attack not just m7.'

the deadeye pve loops do use a stolen skill / shadow meld after Falling Spider to gain the ini from the stealth attack.
so stealth is gained through other means (not shattering assault) and the ini is still gained. that works because there is no other spear skill used between the finisher and the stealth attack.

Edited August 28 by bq pd.2148

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

50 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

yes you gain ini when reaching max malice from m7, thats why i said 'you still gain ini from the stealth attack not just m7.'

the deadeye pve loops do use a stolen skill / shadow meld after Falling Spider to gain the ini from the stealth attack.
so stealth is gained through other means (not shattering assault) and the ini is still gained. that works because there is no other spear skill used between the finisher and the stealth attack.

ok now i understand what you meant. thanks for explaining again. 

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 8/27/2024 at 2:39 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

its not infinite

lol. Did you even play pre-nerf spear ? SA was more than enough to keep stealthing over and over and over and over. Combined with daredevils other 50000000000 tools to avoid damage it was impossible to actually damage a staff thief.

[MKJO.8970]

Spear was the BOMB at BETA... This is such a dissapointment. The amount of stealth dysfunctions (as showcased in Iskarel's youtube vid) are insane... 

Will you please give this spear some proper love.. This is madness..

Let me queue the stealth attack please, and add in some quality of life. The icons are mad hard to read - an indicator that your Finisher 2c or 3c is ready would be much appreciated. I do not understand why these nerfs were implemented. I guess that I will go back to my rifle.. Axes are still unplayable.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

11 hours ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Spear was the BOMB at BETA... This is such a dissapointment. The amount of stealth dysfunctions (as showcased in Iskarel's youtube vid) are insane... 

Will you please give this spear some proper love.. This is madness..

Let me queue the stealth attack please, and add in some quality of life. The icons are mad hard to read - an indicator that your Finisher 2c or 3c is ready would be much appreciated. I do not understand why these nerfs were implemented. I guess that I will go back to my rifle.. Axes are still unplayable.

Axes are playable, I'll show u how if ur on sometime, shoot me a mail.

 

Regarding ur post, spear on thief needs finishers like leap, proj finisher, smoke field on 5 (maybe but unlikely)

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

12 hours ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

lol. Did you even play pre-nerf spear ? SA was more than enough to keep stealthing over and over and over and over. Combined with daredevils other 50000000000 tools to avoid damage it was impossible to actually damage a staff thief.

Prenerf yes, it's not infinite now.

[MKJO.8970]

8 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Axes are playable, I'll show u how if ur on sometime, shoot me a mail.

 

Regarding ur post, spear on thief needs finishers like leap, proj finisher, smoke field on 5 (maybe but unlikely)

Axes are in a better spot now for sure. Maybe it is just a skill issue - I let my frustrations take over during my last post, I am sorry!

But I highly disagree on the spear 5 needs any changes. Maybe just make it easier to spot whether it is enhanced by the 2 or 3 finisher. It is a really neat utility to have in the weapon when you are playing daredevil (which is where I find the spear the most fun to play). You now how a small window to block an attack instead of burning endurance, which you rather want to you for the trait-damage modifier. This frees up space in your other utilities since you do not need emergency endurance regen from Agility Signet (if played correctly). The only thing needing for the weapon to work (in PVE at least) is for the stealth attack to be playable. I hope ANet finds a way to tune this quickly. The weapon is pretty fast paced in instanced PVE, and the small window for proper landing Stealth attack ruins the feel of the weapon since it is the ONLY part which messes up the fluid playstyle it has going for it.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Still not sure why they couldn't have left the stealth as not needing a target while putting the evade on 3a instead of 3c and changing the stealth duration on 3c to 2s in competitive modes as others have suggested.

That would have guaranteed windows of opportunity to hit and kill the thief while they try to stealth and it also gives the thief more useful non-stealth defense when they're trying to avoid a burst, all without messing up the pve fluidity. 

[kash.9213]

6 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Still not sure why they couldn't have left the stealth as not needing a target while putting the evade on 3a instead of 3c and changing the stealth duration on 3c to 2s in competitive modes as others have suggested.

That would have guaranteed windows of opportunity to hit and kill the thief while they try to stealth and it also gives the thief more useful non-stealth defense when they're trying to avoid a burst, all without messing up the pve fluidity. 

Good points. That's still enough stealth time for some positioning or masking. Instead, they made it kind of reactionary and likely to be used for breaking away more often than for setting up an approach or for masking movement or direction, which is the utility of stealth. 

[Gazrul.3086]

Yeah, the spear was kinda bad in WvW even before this change, and now it's absolutely garbage. I was really hyped for the thief spear after having played it in beta, so the way it ended up is extremely disappointing.