Necromancer Spear, My Takeaways and Suggestions

[FalsePromises.6398]

2 hours ago, Apokriphos.7042 said:

I have thoroughly gone into why Extirpate is a resoundingly terrible skill in comparison to Nightfall, and how most non-necro mains somehow consider Extirpate the reason spear should be in all other ways a useless weapon. For the sake of avoiding this argument rehash, and Im going to address your points instead and avoid this one for the moment. 

Lets start with - How is Spear the "Optimal Damage Weapon" for Power Harbinger in WvW?

Spear is far from competitive as a burst weapon in WvW, and isn’t an optimal damage weapon for any necromancer spec in WvW, but especially not Harbinger, which also lacks shroud lifebar protection. The Isolate --> Perforate --> Distress combo you praise is extremely clunky, with multiple failure points (short range misses, dodges, blocks, or simply being avoided due to its slowness) that leave you exposed without a defense skill on the weapon, making it unreliable in any fast-paced competitive environment.

Moreover, Perforate’s 300 range and Addle’s 130 range severely limit spear’s effectiveness in WvW, which is why this is one of many criticisms in these forums. These short ranges force necromancers into dangerously close proximity to enemies, unlike Greatsword’s Grasping Darkness, which has a 900 range and offers much-needed control from a safe distance. Ignoring these points only make the argument sound uninformed. Spear's skill 2 (441 base damage, 1.2 multiplier) - 3 targets, is vastly outclassed by Greatsword’s skill 2 (734 base damage, 1.82 multiplier) hitting up to five targets.

Perforate’s healing, relying entirely on soul shards and a need to camp the extremely long-cooldown Spear to build them (gone after a single shroud rotation) is massively unreliable compared to dagger’s Life Siphon, which offers 4,860 healing & 828 bdmg (2.26 mult) plus a 1.2x bleed modifier at 600 range without any setup. Dagger provides dps, consistent healing and control options like a 4.5second immob base on skill 3, making it far more versatile in combat. Even the much-maligned Axe has Ghastly Claws, with 976 damage, a 2.664 multiplier, and a 900 range. Superior burst potential from a safer distance.

Spear’s short range and lower damage make it a joke in close-quarters combat, where necromancers are already vulnerable. It doesn’t complement Greatsword; it’s simply outclassed by it. The mechanics, including Isolate’s risky follow-up, don’t measure up to Greatsword’s significant utility and power in WvW.

In WvW, Spear is a melee power weapon for a class that already has several better options, leaving it without a niche. It’s hardly an expansion seller.

I feel like you're half not even arguing with me, just what you've heard other people say, but I still want to iterate some things in case you ARE talking to me. I'm not so much of a spear fan that I'm saying it's infallible, I'm saying it has good uses thus far in PvE and a promising design but is in desperate need of improvements to its skills' usability. I'm not talking WvW: I'm hesitant to make statements about competitive mists modes because I quit those a while ago and never regretted it. 

My point on spear being good for harbinger is for PvE, not WvW, if that wasn't clear, and it was because harbinger has an easy workaround for the Distress failure issue in the Isolate combo by using an elixir between the two Perforate casts to pad Distress. I completely agree the Isolate --> Perforate --> Distress --> Perforate combo or even Perforate --> Isolate --> Distress --> Perforate combo are super clunky. Isolate/Distress are huge pain points in spear right now because of the obligatory flip skill activation with no cast, since the reset fails if you're in the aftercast of your last Perforate cast when casting Distress. That's why I say the soul shards and Perforate recharge should be moved from Distress to Isolate, so you can stay at a distance instead of putting yourself at risk. Perforate itself is too short range to be safely cast, and having to teleport to use what you might want as a recovery attack is also kinda messed up. Perforate's range should be increased so the skill is safer to use and more reliable. 

Addle being 130 range is also incredibly clunky because, like I said, the rest of the kit is 240 range or more, so in sequence of using skills, Addle becomes a "stop, wait a minute, let me get closer" speed bump. It even feels bad to use in PvE, let alone competitive. 

I can't attest to anything about the reliability of spear vs other weapons in WvW, but I do know in PvE it has a very unique and fun style to it and performs well in DPS rotations, seeing as it's already worked its way into power harbinger meta for PvE. That aside, when I tested spear vs greatsword in a standalone benchmark against a DPS golem in the raid training area (without firework relic to remove greatsword's massive advantage due to Nightfall and equalize the conditions), Spear was actually a smidge stronger, and that was without using shroud or weapon swapping, which puts spear at a disadvantage since you can't use one of Isolate's strongest gimmicks. Spear is pretty good, it's just crippled in practical use. 

All in all, aside from gamemode-specific things, I think we pretty much agree: Perforate and Addle need range increases, Isolate/Distress needs some fixing to make it more fluid. I'm glad to see it: if enough people agree, change is likely. Hopefully. 

[FalsePromises.6398]

5 minutes ago, Vile.4387 said:

I feel like the 4 skill is the opener though, landing the 4 (if you don't land it you wont engage) is the most important part of initiating (Yes I reiterated that). If someone dodges it, kudos for them, but necro landing it, then getting countered after landing it just seems like a bad design. So I have to double dip on my attack in order to get in close with it? Na, that is redonkulous. Give me the evade on porting. If I wanna get in close, and I land my get in close skill, I wanna get in close. The fact that it refreshes the 2 is just a bonus in my opinion. If these other people really wanna give it more damage, I'm not going to complain, maybe leave the life steal as it is though, feels really good TO ME landing it as is (2/4/2) or (2/4/2/Shroud(pick your poison here)/4/2).

Combine that, IF you get lucky with sword/focus for more chase/boon hate/burst, it feels fine.

Most of the issues I have with shroud mechanics, are the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death's_Charge not sticking to targets, so you get left away from moving targets which is bull. Either the target should be interrupted/stunned/immobile/ All 3 because no kitten trash here, or I need to be able to advance to the target location. That's a different discussion though.

Dunno why someone else is comparing GS pulls at 900 range vs 1200 range porting. They are similar, but also different. Similar in that you still get yourself closer to your target. Different in that, You cant pull multiple people, or pull them off a wall with spear.

Speaking of porting, and I think its been mentioned before, but it would be nice if the throw could also pierce, to actually reach your target, with this (ASSASSIN) type weapon. Would be nice to get some burst off with a preemptive spectral walk, and port back after you pew pew a little on your selected target. Too bad it gets interrupted by anything standing in the way.

I hear you. I still think that it's not up to the skill to guarantee your burst. Necromancer has always been very telegraphed, and it's been up to the user to be crafty about how they use their skills to be unpredictable and land the vital blows when you start playing against enemies that know your tricks. Back in my PvP days, guardians would be dumb and use Judge's Intervention into Whirling Wrath to engage, and if the enemy dodged or countered that, it wasn't the fault of the guardian's skills not working for them, it was because they were predictable. Anyway, I might agree that the 3 second window of Distress makes trying to use the teleport in a not-obvious manner rather difficult, so I could see the Distress teleport time window maybe increasing, but I wouldn't say give it an evade unless you made it an actual attack itself, but that would dampen the spear's unique tricks.

I would also agree that the spear throw could stand to pierce anyone between you and your target, that makes total sense. I mean, they did it for deadeye's sniper attack, why not an attack that gives you a very important gap closer? Why allow that to be bodyblocked?

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

Spear is actually in a pretty good spot, it's just facing terrible restrictions on the ranges of its more powerful or vital skills. Spear is currently the optimal damage weapon alongside greatsword for power harbinger, which I believe is because harbinger has other skills it can cast during the forced delay between perforates when using Isolate --> Perforate --> Distress --> Perforate (as mentioned in the original post, this combo needs to either cancel the previous Perforate's aftercast or use another skill while casting Distress to make sure the reset works properly). 

Also, I did the math with someone above, and spear is actually a pretty dang good sustain weapon, since its soul shards on Perforate outheal dagger's Life Siphon, and it can also reset Perforate's cooldown AND regenerate full soul shards in the process. 5160 heal on Perforate with full soul shards vs 4860 heal on Life Siphon with bleeding modifier. Sword might have more consistent healing across all skills but dare I say it's counterbalanced by being smaller healing among more skills AND needing health to cast certain skills anyway. Spear is just limited by Perforate's range, which forces necromancers to get unreasonably close and often take more damage trying to get their healing. 

Spear's role in necromancer is a close range bursty weapon that gives necromancer a lot of immediate danger that its previous weapons were missing. Sword's damage is evenly dispersed, doesn't have huge burst. Greatsword is too weighty and slow for a lot of that immediate pressure or followup. Staff might work in PvE as a bursty power weapon but it burns out FAST and has no further use, and isn't a power weapon in competitive. Axe is axe (lol). Spear has a great unique identity with substantial performance, I just want to enhance its performance in ways that wouldn't even buff the current high end meta uses. Range increases would help it be more usable in open world, Isolate/Distress changes would help the weapon work more fluidly, and slight Perforate recharge on autoattacks would help it sustain damage in longer use, which is antithetical to how harbinger and reaper play since they hop in shroud during cooldowns, but throws a bone to power scourge, which has been nonexistent in serious PvE thus far. 

To reiterate on previous concerns though, no, spear is not competing with greatsword, it's working alongside it. If anything, spear is eclipsing a lot of subpar other power options that anet seems to design more for competitive mists anyway. I want spear to follow in greatsword's steps because it's the only good model so far for consistent power damage on a necromancer weapon, and a lack of consistent power damage is what keeps power builds on scourge in PvE under wraps (also the fact that shade skills have low power coefficients, but that's only part of the issue). 

I think part of the issue is that while that might work for raids where you're expected to be in melee all the time, in most of open world PvE it's beneficial to have a ranged option. So if greatsword wins as the melee option, there's not a lot of room for spear when you have swords or even axe as a standoff weapon.

A bit of extra range on skills could help here, though - let it fill a niche similar to guardian spear (albeit without the support elements).

[FalsePromises.6398]

41 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think part of the issue is that while that might work for raids where you're expected to be in melee all the time, in most of open world PvE it's beneficial to have a ranged option. So if greatsword wins as the melee option, there's not a lot of room for spear when you have swords or even axe as a standoff weapon.

A bit of extra range on skills could help here, though - let it fill a niche similar to guardian spear (albeit without the support elements).

Yeah, I think we're in agreement on spear needing a little more range. Perforate and Addle need longer range to be practical: Perforate requires you to get way too close for a channeled cone attack and struggles to cleave without a really tight stack, and Addle ruins the flow of using skills in sequence with its 130 range while the rest of spear's skills are 240 or more. I just hope the developers don't fall into the pitfall of "spear works in instanced content, it's fine". 

Anyway, I don't think spear is competing with greatsword unless you're forcing that idea yourself by thinking you need a ranged weapon in your setup. When I need ranged in open world, I'm sooner picking harbinger or swapping styles entirely to scourge before swapping in dedicated ranged weapons. I think I'd sooner want a better pure ranged power weapon later down the line than try to contort spear into that role. Spear will do nicely as a mid range damage, sustain, and burst weapon once Perforate and Addle get some proper range tune-ups. 

[Sigmoid.7082]

Though I've gotten used to it, Addle is the only thing that could use more range and the only real change I would expect to see, if any. From a design standpoint I completely understand why they set its range is 130 though.

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 8/27/2024 at 1:26 AM, FalsePromises.6398 said:

I think first and foremost is the range. The key parts of the kit feel cramped, and Perforate is the worst offender: its visuals shoot all the way out to 600 range, but it can only strike half that distance, and with such short range it often fails to cleave at all. I think tuning up the range to 450 or 600 would do the skill much more justice, even if it comes at the cost of a narrower cone attack. Perforate doesn't need as much spread if it's a better linear attack. Addle also needs extra range, maybe 180 or 240, so it can embrace a better "poke and pin" function.

After that, Isolate should be the skill that generates soul shards and recharges Perforate, not Distress. It would streamline skill sequences and allow you to stay at "poking" range instead of needing to teleport right in an enemy's face with a channeled cone attack prone to cancelling itself or missing entirely against certain movements. It would also improve usability: in a damage-optimizing sequence, you would go from (Isolate --> Perforate --> [another skill to ensure Perforate goes on cooldown before Distress] --> Distress --> Perforate), down to a much cleaner sequence of (Perforate --> Isolate --> Perforate), a much cleaner skill sequence. The teleport can be saved entirely as an optional gap closer then, like Death Shroud's Dark Path and Dark Pursuit.

These are the two that really speak to me. In my experience distress having the recharge is a problem on several fronts. Not least because Isolate seems to randomly go on full cooldown for no reason immediately after use. I'm not sure if it's a ping issue causing a miss (shouldn't be, my ping is usually in the 30s), some sort of bug, could it be the enemy dying before you use distress? Either way it's a problem as you don't get that recharge reliably and it stops the second perforate being used, which kind of feels like you're being robbed.

Also, Extirpate seems bizarre. I can't work out in the chaos of the fight and due to the randomness of the effect, but it seems to randomly recharge or it completes then animation but then goes on a short recharge? Has anyone else had this? Am I missing something?

It's a really strange weapon. If there were tentacle animations and it inflicted confusion, it would be almost thematic that it feels so baffling to use but as it stands, it's just baffling and unsatisfying.

 

[Vile.4387]

7 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

 

Also, Extirpate seems bizarre. I can't work out in the chaos of the fight and due to the randomness of the effect, but it seems to randomly recharge or it completes then animation but then goes on a short recharge? Has anyone else had this? Am I missing something?

 

 

Yes I have noticed this as well. I am guessing its due to the full animation not going off, perhaps being interrupted? I don't think this is the case every time. Something just feels off about it though.

[FalsePromises.6398]

12 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

These are the two that really speak to me. In my experience distress having the recharge is a problem on several fronts. Not least because Isolate seems to randomly go on full cooldown for no reason immediately after use. I'm not sure if it's a ping issue causing a miss (shouldn't be, my ping is usually in the 30s), some sort of bug, could it be the enemy dying before you use distress? Either way it's a problem as you don't get that recharge reliably and it stops the second perforate being used, which kind of feels like you're being robbed.

Also, Extirpate seems bizarre. I can't work out in the chaos of the fight and due to the randomness of the effect, but it seems to randomly recharge or it completes then animation but then goes on a short recharge? Has anyone else had this? Am I missing something?

It's a really strange weapon. If there were tentacle animations and it inflicted confusion, it would be almost thematic that it feels so baffling to use but as it stands, it's just baffling and unsatisfying.

 

The Isolate bug you speak of must be an actual bug, but I've never seen it. The target dying doesn't make Distress not work or immediately skip to cooldown, I've casted Isolate on ambient creatures in PvE (which die in one shot) and was still able to cast Distress to teleport to where they died. I've never seen it skip Distress unless the target dies before the spear reaches it and it therefore misses entirely. 

Also yeah, Extirpate is really awkward to judge based on the animation because its entire 360 degree strike happens at some singular point during a rather slow overhead spin that has both windup and extra animation afterwards. I also think it's a low priority casting skill, which makes it easy to cancel with other abilities. Or maybe all the other spear abilities have really high casting priority, idk. 

As for finding the weapon strange... I think the only reason it's strange is because its skills are rife with sequence issues, weird animations, and short range thresholds that strangle its effectiveness and reliability. I think once all its issues are properly smoothed out, the overarching idea of it will seem a lot more sensible and less confusing. 

[Vile.4387]

I agree, I like the concept of how it works, just needs a little polish here and there, and little adjustments. Overall I am pleased with it.

[Xoidie.8965]

I'm enjoying the spear, but I just don't get why it's yet another power damage weapon. At this point, necromancer has 2 main hand condition weapons and 5 power ones, which seems kinda unfair and rather strange, especially for the class that one would think would be thematically centered around damage over time, curses and weakening.

I said it before and I still think they should've made the spear more of a hybrid damage weapon. At the very least they could add bleeding to Perforate imo.

Other than that, I would love them to rework Addle or at least buff its range, it just feels pretty underwhelming.

[FalsePromises.6398]

33 minutes ago, Xoidie.8965 said:

I'm enjoying the spear, but I just don't get why it's yet another power damage weapon. At this point, necromancer has 2 main hand condition weapons and 5 power ones, which seems kinda unfair and rather strange, especially for the class that one would think would be thematically centered around damage over time, curses and weakening.

I said it before and I still think they should've made the spear more of a hybrid damage weapon. At the very least they could add bleeding to Perforate imo.

Other than that, I would love them to rework Addle or at least buff its range, it just feels pretty underwhelming.

I mean, the releases thus far have been power, condi, condi, power, power... It's 3 to 2, one apart, so I don't see it unreasonably favoring power unless they add another power weapon next. Necro might seem like it has a lot of power options, but there's only three that are substantial standalone (greatsword, spear, swords). The rest are kinda competitive-focused, or meant to be used for like two skills and swapped out of immediately. If we include ANY relevant weapons when talking about power vs condi, condi then has staff and dare I say greatsword too with Deathly Chill. I could even include spear as a condi weapon with Deathly Chill, since it's actually seeing use on condi reaper due to having some chill on it, but I also hear that condi reaper's starting to edge into hybrid territory now. 

Anyway, I do agree that three good power sets is more than two good condi sets. As much as I'd love one last power weapon to fill a straight-laced ranged power damage role (unlike staff, swords, or axe), I think we're due for a new condi weapon next time around. 

[Asum.4960]

10 hours ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

I mean, the releases thus far have been power, condi, condi, power, power... It's 3 to 2, one apart, so I don't see it unreasonably favoring power unless they add another power weapon next. Necro might seem like it has a lot of power options, but there's only three that are substantial standalone (greatsword, spear, swords). The rest are kinda competitive-focused, or meant to be used for like two skills and swapped out of immediately. If we include ANY relevant weapons when talking about power vs condi, condi then has staff and dare I say greatsword too with Deathly Chill. I could even include spear as a condi weapon with Deathly Chill, since it's actually seeing use on condi reaper due to having some chill on it, but I also hear that condi reaper's starting to edge into hybrid territory now. 

Anyway, I do agree that three good power sets is more than two good condi sets. As much as I'd love one last power weapon to fill a straight-laced ranged power damage role (unlike staff, swords, or axe), I think we're due for a new condi weapon next time around. 

Power has Greatsword, Axe, Dagger, Sword, Spear and even Staff, which while it was somewhat hybrid, only had it's power coefficients significantly buffed over the years to keep up with Power creep - it can't really be considered hybrid anymore, let alone condi.

Condi has Scepter and Pistol. Scepter is barely worth using at this point, with Grasping Dead not having gotten any buffs since 2013 to keep up with Powercreep, and Devouring Darkness actually got nerfed while it already was barely competing with just Pistol camping (the about least "Necromancery" weapon I can imagine). So at best it's a quick swap in  and out before and after Shroud. Meanwhile Pistol is technically envisioned as hybrid weapon by Anet - just that hybrid doesn't really exist in a meta sense, outside of Celestial solo/OW builds and such, where Pistol really shines - so it's generally considered a Condi Weapon.

GS and Spear being considered condi DPS weapons bc they have chill for Reaper's Cold Shoulder Trait, which then so happens to also be useful for a highly niche build with Deathly Chill is a big stretch. 

If we look into Off-hands as well (and especially if we count 2-handers twice), the disparity gets even greater, as Condi doesn't have a single 2-hander and really only Torch as off-hand - although Dagger-OH ought to be counted for condi as well, despite how rather pointless and unused it's been over the last nearly decade.

Then in terms of Power vs Condi skills we are more at something like 20+ vs 10. Both being plagued by fairly useless or extremely (dead) gamemode specific skills. 

Then there are ofc Necro support weapons, which are at 0 - or if we are extremely generous,1 with Warhorn, rather than being Power since it's unfortunate "rework". 

For a Professions with the Primary Themes of Summoning Undead with Death Magic, Supporting themselves and Allies with Blood Magic, and esp. so Cursing and debilitating foes with Curses and conditions - I'd say the actual tools the Profession has at this point are beyond extremely odd. 

As for what we got of value with the new weapon additions,  Sword MH 3 could have just been a Dagger MH 3 rework, adding weapon based mobility there more sensibly instead. Spear is pretty redundant with Dagger/vice versa. Sword AA could have worked nicely for either Staff as our in 2022 established long ranged Power weapon or Axe as medium ranged Power weapon - both suffering from terrible AA's, and Sword OH would have made for a fine Focus 4 rework, making it attractive not just in PvP. Then there would have been plenty room for a Support as well as melee condi addition with SotO and Janthir, which are both not only far less catered to, but also much more thematic to the class. 

I just find it rather pointless and frustrating to see Weapons repeatedly added which at the very best case simply supersede previous weapons in the same playstyle/niche, dooming either others or themselves to become more obscure left behind trash on the weapons pile - rather than reworking what's already there and struggling, while adding new and interesting tools and actually new ways to play and combine things.

Anyway, oh woe is me. 

Edited August 31 by Asum.4960

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

I just find it rather pointless and frustrating to see Weapons repeatedly added which at the very best case simply supersede previous weapons in the same playstyle/niche, dooming either other's or themselves to become more obscure left behind trash on the weapons pile - rather than reworking what's already there and struggling, while adding new and interesting tools and actually new ways to play and combine things.

I suspect that it's the dev's way to keep the hole in the role.

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I suspect that it's the dev's way to keep the hole in the role.

My problem with that is that other Professions get their holes patched with these new tools being added instead, while Necromancer not only doesn't get new tools, but has it's few niches nerfed/removed. 

Necro pretty much just had Epidemic cleave, Boon Corruption, Revival Carry, and with PoF's Scourge Barrier Support as niche tools. 

Epidemic has been dumpstered. Boon Corruption is repeatedly getting removed in favour of plain Boon Removal, which other's do better/easier at this point. Transfusion's Revival/Down teleportation and Ritual of Life's revival power got more than cut into a third. And Barrier support is being added/filled as hole elsewhere as well, be it with Mechanist for Engineer, Specter for Thief, Scepter for Revenant, or even more subtle with Relics like Flock and great low Heal skill CD synergy with Mantra of Solace for Guardian's Firebrand, etc. 

And I'm not even saying they are doing  great work on other Professions, but man have I not been excited for anything on Necro in particular since Reaper and Scourge - which were a long time ago at this point. It's just been the same uninspired stuff packaged in a slightly different but equally lame way. 

Other than Heal Scourge getting Alac and Prot and becoming a real boy at last (which tbf, could have been done in numerous far better, easier and cleaner designed ways), as well as the Serpent Siphon change, I'm hard pressed to think of anything genuinely transformative or build changing they've done in years. Everything plays and feels the same way and takes the same stuff.

Death Spiral, Life Siphon, Perforate, Ghastly Claws (hell, even Dark Barrage on pHarb now).. it's just all blending together, the same tool in the same build for the same purpose with the same feel.

I'll try to stop the topic derailment with my frustrations here though.

Edited August 31 by Asum.4960

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

My problem with that is that other Professions get their holes patched with these new tools being added instead, while Necromancer not only doesn't get new tools, but has it's few niches nerfed/removed. 

Necro pretty much just had Epidemic cleave, Boon Corruption, Revival Carry, and with PoF's Scourge Barrier Support as niche tools. 

Epidemic has been dumpstered. Boon Corruption is repeatedly getting removed in favour of plain Boon Removal, which other's do better/easier at this point. Transfusion's Revival/Down teleportation and Ritual of Life's revival power got more than cut into a third. And Barrier support is being added/filled as hole elsewhere as well, be it with Mechanist for Engineer, Specter for Thief, Scepter for Revenant, or even more subtle with Relics like Flock and great low Heal skill CD synergy with Mantra of Solace for Guardian's Firebrand, etc. 

And I'm not even saying they are doing  great work on other Professions, but man have I not been excited for anything on Necro in particular since Reaper and Scourge - which were a long time ago at this point. It's just been the same uninspired stuff packaged in a slightly different but equally lame way. 

Other than Heal Scourge getting Alac and Prot and becoming a real boy at last (which tbf, could have been done in numerous far better, easier and cleaner designed ways), as well as the Serpent Siphon change, I'm hard pressed to think of anything genuinely transformative or build changing they've done in years. Everything plays and feels way and takes the same stuff. Death Spiral, Life Siphon, Perforate, Ghastly Claws.. it's just all blending together, the same tool in the same build for the same purpose with the same feel.

I'll try to stop the topic derailment with my frustrations here though.

Look at the bright side of things, none of the last 2 weapons throw the uninspired good ol' floating black hand despite having some manner of ranged attack (You wouldn't believe how sick I am of this crappy projectile animation).

I do agree with you that nothing they introduced since PoF feel imaginative (no it's worse than that, it feel like they do the same mistake over and over again). Still, like other professions, the necromancer have moved toward the goal of having the tools necessary to fulfill all roles (even if it's not to the point of being "meta" for those roles). The best thing we had for the whole pre-PoF history was condi reaper in competitive modes and boon corruption in WvW zerg specifically. Now we have all manner of possibilities.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

I mean, the releases thus far have been power, condi, condi, power, power... It's 3 to 2, one apart, so I don't see it unreasonably favoring power unless they add another power weapon next.

That's a bit disingenuous. Let's fill in the details you missed: power (2H), condi (OH), condi (MH), power (MH+OH), power (2H). It's more like 3 to 1, since every power release has been a full set, while the two condi releases need to be combined to make a full set.

Also, considering the starting weapons: Dagger and axe are both power. Sceptre, condi. Staff, hybrid. With offhands, focus and warhorn are both power, dagger is condi. So necromancer released with the equivalent of two power sets (dagger/warhorn and axe/focus), one condi set (scepter/dagger), and one hybrid.

So the numbers are now 6 to 3, counting staff for both.

Condi reaper can convert weapons with a lot of chill like greatsword and spear into condi weapons, but that only helps reaper, which is already the best elite specialisation for running power as it is, and condi reaper is really more of a hybrid anyway. Power harbinger has started to make an appearance after the past few balance updates, but scourge being basically condition-only has less than half of the weapon options of the others. And without a melee option, they can't nerf condiscourge's ranged capabilities without that nerf taking out condiscourge altogether.

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

scourge being basically condition-only has less than half of the weapon options of the others.

That's arguable. Scourge not having "power traits" doesn't mean that it's condition only.

All scourge's F-key inflict a strike damage component and the spec have been used succesfuly in a power setting in WvW. It isn't at the level of the current meta dps but I'm pretty sure one can reach 30k strike damage dps with scourge pretty easily with the current tools (And that's enough to go through the majority of the content of the game).

[FalsePromises.6398]

10 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Power has Greatsword, Axe, Dagger, Sword, Spear and even Staff, which while it was somewhat hybrid, only had it's power coefficients significantly buffed over the years to keep up with Power creep - it can't really be considered hybrid anymore, let alone condi.

Condi has Scepter and Pistol. Scepter is barely worth using at this point, with Grasping Dead not having gotten any buffs since 2013 to keep up with Powercreep, and Devouring Darkness actually got nerfed while it already was barely competing with just Pistol camping (the about least "Necromancery" weapon I can imagine).

Staff is first and foremost condi before they buffed it's power exclusively for PvE, just not very good condi. Poison, bleeding, transfers... all more concurrent with necromancer's condi styles. Dagger, axe, or staff aren't really strong standalone power weapons if we're talking PvE, they don't hold a candle to greatsword, spear, or swords. It'd be like calling guardian mace or revenant staff a power weapon. There's a running joke that you can use any weapon as a power weapon for reaper and hit near 40k dps if you just never swap off greatsword. Anyway, yeah scepter has been kinda trampled, I was really annoyed they chose to attack scepter when weaponmaster first launched and scourge was dealing 49k DPS. I'd have rather seen tone-down on pistol or trait modifiers if anything. 

11 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

GS and Spear being considered condi DPS weapons bc they have chill for Reaper's Cold Shoulder Trait, which then so happens to also be useful for a highly niche build with Deathly Chill is a big stretch. 

Spear might be a stretch but greatsword isn't. Every single button on greatsword can apply a damaging condition through Deathly Chill, either via direct chill application, intentionally generous whirl combos in chill fields from shroud, or blindness into chill via Chilling Darkness. It's like mesmer dagger. Damaging conditions on every skill is more than can be said about some actual condi weapons. 

11 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

If we look into Off-hands as well (and especially if we count 2-handers twice), the disparity gets even greater, as Condi doesn't have a single 2-hander and really only Torch as off-hand - although Dagger-OH ought to be counted for condi as well, despite how rather pointless and unused it's been over the last nearly decade.

Then in terms of Power vs Condi skills we are more at something like 20+ vs 10. Both being plagued by fairly useless or extremely (dead) gamemode specific skills. 

Then there are ofc Necro support weapons, which are at 0 - or if we are extremely generous,1 with Warhorn, rather than being Power since it's unfortunate "rework". 

I wouldn't hesitate to count offhand dagger as condi when Blood is Power exists. Before Plague Signet buffs (and still currently) dagger is used to transfer Blood is Power's self conditions for a sizable amount of damage, and Enfeebling Blood got buffed for more bleed. Dagger 4 can even play into Deathly Chill via Chilling Darkness.

I'd also be careful of counting any skill that doesn't do condi damage as power. That's not constructive at all, sometimes skills are meant for support or utility or just aren't good in any direction, just filler. 

Torch is the one support weapon, not really warhorn lol. Torch boon upkeep > warhorn's piddly over-time siphon.

11 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

For a Professions with the Primary Themes of Summoning Undead with Death Magic, Supporting themselves and Allies with Blood Magic, and esp. so Cursing and debilitating foes with Curses and conditions - I'd say the actual tools the Profession has at this point are beyond extremely odd. 

I wouldn't really consider death magic and summoning undead as primary themes, as you have. I'd sooner put soul reaping first, then spite and curses, and then blood magic. When I think of necromancer I immediately think of shroud and life force and boon removal/corruption and debilitation, none of which are prominent in death magic. Anet wants to just leave death magic for the LI minionmancers. I haven't even looked at death magic as a legitimate traitline since I theorycrafted before EoD that harbinger would be a poison spec to validate it. Minions and summoning actual undead are two themes that the elite specs haven't really touched on in a serious manner, unless you technically count scourge shades... which c'mon, nah. Anyway, the reason they keep catering to power is because necro power struggled for the longest time to not be a joke, while the existing condi weapons were pretty good where they were used. 

11 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

As for what we got of value with the new weapon additions,  Sword MH 3 could have just been a Dagger MH 3 rework, adding weapon based mobility there more sensibly instead. Spear is pretty redundant with Dagger/vice versa. Sword AA could have worked nicely for either Staff as our in 2022 established long ranged Power weapon or Axe as medium ranged Power weapon - both suffering from terrible AA's, and Sword OH would have made for a fine Focus 4 rework, making it attractive not just in PvP. Then there would have been plenty room for a Support as well as melee condi addition with SotO and Janthir, which are both not only far less catered to, but also much more thematic to the class. 

I would not trade Dark Pact for a leap. Ranged immob/corrupt > gap closer. You often DON'T want to be up close like that, melee range is other class's parlors when you have little to no stability nor reactive defenses (blocks, evades). Sword 3 is a weird skill shoveled in because people wanted leaps, just like harbinger shroud.

Spear doesn't really step on daggers. Life Siphon vs Perforate is apples and oranges: one's cast and forget strike damage + healing over time, the other is a faster channeled strike damage cleave + siphon ammo that relies on each hit landing. Dark Pact vs Addle is even more laughable, because Dark Pact is better in every metric while Addle tries for risky melee interrupts. 

Also, again, calling staff a long range power weapon is an insult to weapons like ranger longbow, engineer rifle, elementalist spear, even mesmer greatsword. Staff is a condi/utility/competitive weapon that's been refurbished for extra power in PvE alone, and it's not consistent for sustained damage. Given they didn't extend their PvE power buffs to other modes, I don't think they intend for staff to be a real long range power damage weapon. 

11 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I just find it rather pointless and frustrating to see Weapons repeatedly added which at the very best case simply supersede previous weapons in the same playstyle/niche, dooming either others or themselves to become more obscure left behind trash on the weapons pile - rather than reworking what's already there and struggling, while adding new and interesting tools and actually new ways to play and combine things.

But I agree here. These new weapons do weird crazy things while older weapons fall out of style. It's the result of no longer making elite specs that can elevate old weapons, and using new weapons as an outlet for new mechanics instead. But frankly, I think it's just that anet is hesitant towards necromancer balance, since they've been a sore spot ever since boon meta and PoF adding scourge. One necromancer in a good spot pisses off ten other bitter players by default. I haven't seen them really buckle down on making necromancer better since those overdue reaper buffs. 

Sorry, I know you're trying not to derail the topic after all that, but I just wanted to address those things, because some of them kinda bugged me. 

[Asum.4960]

@FalsePromises.6398

I'll just say that one, all of Axe, Staff and Dagger MH have been part of, and actively used in, Power DPS Meta builds before - Axe was replaced by post-buff Staff replaced by post-buff Dagger, and Dagger was literally just replaced by Spear. Staff has never been part of any PvE Condi Build - it was 8 years of literally just camping Scepter until Pistol came with EoD, and that's been it. They are most definitely Power Weapons in PvE. Competitive modes are a very different landscape with very different priorities where these descriptors don't even hold that much weight.

Secondly, the Dagger OH being useful for BiP transfers, this is mostly a Golem thing to artificially inflate cNecro DPS numbers in Benchmarking. Cleanse has been so powercrept and is so frequent in 10 player squads that it's extremely unreliable - especially with something as slow as Dagger 4.

Lastly, as for Necromancer themes, I'm coming from the Original Guild Wars, and early Prophecies (before it was even called that) at that.

This was when Minion Master Necro was able to genuinely have 50+ Minion Armies following them around, mowing everything down. When Blood Magic and supportive Wells were actual things, Life Transfers genuine ways to do damage and sustain - and most importantly, where Necro actually had unique and iconic Curses - rather than just sharing in the generic Condition system that GW2 has, where a Condition (Curse) Necro really isn't any different than a Condition Warrior or anything else.

For example combining unique Curses such as Reckless Haste, Price of Failure or Insidious Parasite and Spiteful Spirit to make enemies attack and miss wildly while killing themselves and their allies was very different than a simple Warrior Bleed (and ironically Necromancer didn't even really get Confusion access, which is the closest Condition to that iconic Curse combination).

Shroud (thankfully) wasn't even a part of Necromancer in GW1 and it was free from that crippling design limitation they introduced in GW2 - so my idea of what Necromancer in the Guild Wars Franchise means is likely very different from you. 

I fell in love with the Class in GW1, where it was, imo, much more sophisticated and interestingly designed - with far stronger thematic elements.

Edited August 31 by Asum.4960

[FalsePromises.6398]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

@FalsePromises.6398

I'll just say that one, all of Axe, Staff and Dagger MH have been part of, and actively used in, Power DPS Meta builds before - Axe was replaced by post-buff Staff replaced by post-buff Dagger, and Dagger was literally just replaced by Spear. Staff has never been part of any PvE Condi Build - it was 8 years of literally just camping Scepter until Pistol came with EoD, and that's been it. They are most definitely Power Weapons in PvE. Competitive modes are a very different landscape with very different priorities where these descriptors don't even hold that much weight.

Secondly, the Dagger OH being useful for BiP transfers, this is mostly a Golem thing to artificially inflate cNecro DPS numbers in Benchmarking. Cleanse has been so powercrept and is so frequent in 10 player squads that it's extremely unreliable - especially with something as slow as Dagger 4.

Lastly, as for Necromancer themes, I'm coming from the Original Guild Wars, and early Prophecies (before it was even called that) at that.

This was when Minion Master Necro was able to genuinely have 50+ Minion Armies following them around, mowing everything down. When Blood Magic and supportive Wells were actual things, Life Transfers genuine ways to do damage and sustain - and most importantly, where Necro actually had unique and iconic Curses - rather than just sharing in the generic Condition system that GW2 has, where a Condition (Curse) Necro really isn't any different than a Condition Warrior or anything else.

For example combining unique Curses such as Reckless Haste, Price of Failure or Insidious Parasite and Spiteful Spirit to make enemies attack and miss wildly while killing themselves and their allies was very different than a simple Warrior Bleed (and ironically Necromancer didn't even really get Confusion access, which is the closest Condition to that iconic Curse combination).

Shroud (thankfully) wasn't even a part of Necromancer in GW1 and it was free from that crippling design limitation they introduced in GW2 - so my idea of what Necromancer in the Guild Wars Franchise means is likely very different from you. 

I fell in love with the Class in GW1, where it was, imo, much more sophisticated and interestingly designed - with far stronger thematic elements.

Fair. Only thing I'll concretely disagree with is that I more often than not am able to actually use Blood is Power with dagger 4 successfully, even in ten man content with healers, unless it's a healscourge. It also still works in open world too, you just usually want quickness, and the only build left that uses dagger 4 instead of instant transfers like plague sending, plague signet, or suffer, is condi quickharb anyway. 

That aside, I've definitely also noticed Guild Wars 2 has a striking lack of the crazy mechanical gimmicks you actually have to respect that are present in other dark magic users in MMORPGs: necromancer winds up lacking the messed up hexes and curses designed to punish carelessness, and the closest they get is boon hate. They sooner put weird debuffs on themselves via blight. 

Edited September 1 by FalsePromises.6398

[ShadowX.6348]

On 8/27/2024 at 3:26 AM, FalsePromises.6398 said:

While using necromancer spear I was getting mixed signals: some clashing designs and ultimately something missing. After talking with others, I wanted to make a forum post just to put my thoughts and feedback out there and hopefully start some conversation, because I worry spear will fall into a "it deals damage, we're done" rut and be left in a mediocre state when it could be doing MUCH more for the class, even without over-tuning what reaper and harbinger have or touching damage coefficients. I'm putting the key parts in bold so it can be read with a glance for tl;dr, but I encourage reading the whole thing. 

I think first and foremost is the range. The key parts of the kit feel cramped, and Perforate is the worst offender: its visuals shoot all the way out to 600 range, but it can only strike half that distance, and with such short range it often fails to cleave at all. I think tuning up the range to 450 or 600 would do the skill much more justice, even if it comes at the cost of a narrower cone attack. Perforate doesn't need as much spread if it's a better linear attack. Addle also needs extra range, maybe 180 or 240, so it can embrace a better "poke and pin" function. Necromancer's spear isn't like warrior's daggers where you have two leaps and want to be in their face all the time. Spear in general really ought to embrace some more "poking" instead of falling into an awkward pure melee role where its important ranged channel attack is at most disadvantage. If anyone's not aware, ranged channels often fail against enemies that move inside, through, or around your hitbox, which happens a lot in melee. 

After that, Isolate should be the skill that generates soul shards and recharges Perforate, not Distress. It would streamline skill sequences and allow you to stay at "poking" range instead of needing to teleport right in an enemy's face with a channeled cone attack prone to cancelling itself or missing entirely against certain movements. It would also improve usability: in a damage-optimizing sequence, you would go from (Isolate --> Perforate --> [another skill to ensure Perforate goes on cooldown before Distress] --> Distress --> Perforate), down to a much cleaner sequence of (Perforate --> Isolate --> Perforate), a much cleaner skill sequence. The teleport can be saved entirely as an optional gap closer then, like Death Shroud's Dark Path and Dark Pursuit. 

My last suggestion is one that gets a little inspiration from greatsword, that spear's autoattack chain should partially recharge Perforate. Something small like 33% recharge of Perforate on the third skill of the autoattack chain would work perfectly, so that two auto chains plus one other spear skill would give you full shards plus enough recharge progress for a clean loop into Perforate. Encouraging sustained damage mechanics on spear would fill some gaps in power scourge in PvE, plus it would give spear that consistent strength like greatsword that I think more weapons in the necromancer arsenal ought to have, since they tend to pump skills and then sit on longer cooldowns (if they don't swap off). A change like this shouldn't even affect reaper and harbinger's damage in PvE since they spend more time in shroud and avoid extended periods of a single weapon. 

Tl;dr of the tl;dr, spear should aim for more of a poking, mid-close range style instead of a clashing melee style with a ranged channel attack, by increasing the range of Perforate and Addle and moving soul shards/Perforate recharge off of Distress to Isolate. Spear can then be enhanced akin to greatsword by adding partial Perforate recharge on third auto chain strikes, improving its sustained damage for specs or styles that don't rely on shroud kits as much. 

Im not sure if they will ever change or adjust the spear, cause they have this vision of the weapon. But at least hope for just a small adjustment, witch is: 

• Skill 1 and Skill 3 should have the range increase to 220(or at least 170), for a more mid-close range style, and Skill 4 Distress, should have Evade, cause you must likely get stun when teleport.

And if they are open for a change, and listen to our feedback, here is my suggestion: 

• Skill 1: For short, it should work as Revenant Skill 1 Spear, but with 1 range throwing and 2 chain slash and stab attacks on melee.
  Dark Slash, should be change to a Range Throwing Attack, 3 Targets, Range 600, Cast 0.75 sec, and not a Chain skill.
  The Chain Attacks Deadly Slice and Sinister Stab should be the same as they are now,  except the range should be 170, and only activate the 2 chain attacks when in the range of 170.  Deadly Slice should have the animation from Dark Slash, and maybe a name like Deadly Slash.
   
• Skill 3 should have the range increase to 170.
• Skill 4 Distress, should have Fear on teleport. 

The weapon feels fine, they did a nice job, and i appreciate what they did. But, again, the weapon needs some adjusments, and to have an AA as a kite skill, would be just perfect.

 

Edited September 2 by ShadowX.6348

[FalsePromises.6398]

3 minutes ago, ShadowX.6348 said:

Im not sure if they will ever change or adjust the spear, cause they have this vision of the weapon. But at least hope for just a small adjustment, witch is: 

• Skill 1 and Skill 3 should have the range increase to 240 for a more mid-close range style, and Skill 4 Distress, should have Evade, cause you must likely get stun when teleport.

And if they are open for a change, and listen to our feedback, here is my suggestion: 

• Skill 1: For short, it should work as Revenant Skill 1 Spear, but with 1 range and 2 chain attacks on melee.
  Dark Slash, should be change to a Range Throwing Attack, 3 Targets, Range 600, Cast 0.75 sec, and not a Chain skill. With a name like Dark Spike or Poison Spike(or choose any other name).
  The Chain Attacks Deadly Slice and Sinister Stab should be the same as they are now,  except the range should be 240 or at least 170, and only activate the 2 chain attacks when in the range of 240/170.  Deadly Slice should have the animation from Dark Slash, and maybe a name like Deadly Slash(or again, choose any other name), and the animations would be a throwing spear for range, and a slash and a stab for melee. 
   
• Skill 3 should have the range increase to 240.
• Skill 4 Distress, should have Evade on teleport. 

The weapon feels fine, they did a nice job, and i appreciate what they did. But, again, the weapon needs some adjusments, and to have an AA as a kite skill, would be just perfect.

 

I personally don't think the autos need to increase range or become ranged. The autos aren't super important to the kit, and the rest is pretty substantial for covering its regular usage. Think like dual daggers. If you need a kite weapon, you really ought to go for swords or axe, and sword in particular feels like it was pretty much made for that exact purpose since it has leaps on it too.

I am totally on board that Addle needs range increase to 240 though, it's a glaring inconsistency with the rest of the kit and seems to betray its otherwise pretty good style of staying just out of melee range when casting its important skills, where necromancer wants to be. I'd also include Perforate in range increases, because it's incredibly restrictive to use. 

I still don't get this desire for evade on Distress though. It doesn't fit necromancer's style, nor most other long range teleports for that matter. I could see maybe blindness, but not evade, that seems rather overdone and thematically inconsistent, both for a gap closing teleport with no cast, and for necromancer in general. That's like, a mesmer thing.  

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's arguable. Scourge not having "power traits" doesn't mean that it's condition only.

All scourge's F-key inflict a strike damage component and the spec have been used succesfuly in a power setting in WvW. It isn't at the level of the current meta dps but I'm pretty sure one can reach 30k strike damage dps with scourge pretty easily with the current tools (And that's enough to go through the majority of the content of the game).

That build's still packing a lot of conditions for a power build. I'd guess the circumstances that allow it to exist are zergs where boons and cleanses flow freely, so you want to strip boons but you know that conditions aren't going to stick for long so power is what's going to get through. I don't think there's any other scenario where you'd go full power with an elite specialisation where pretty much everything it does generates burning and/or torment and one of the minor traits gives condition damage and expertise.

5 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

For example combining unique Curses such as Reckless Haste, Price of Failure or Insidious Parasite and Spiteful Spirit to make enemies attack and miss wildly while killing themselves and their allies was very different than a simple Warrior Bleed (and ironically Necromancer didn't even really get Confusion access, which is the closest Condition to that iconic Curse combination).

As long as mesmers get access to Fear in return - it's a bit weird that a profession that was known for manipulating emotions, including panic, is completely lacking the fear condition.

[Memento Mori.1326]

Necromancer spear is the worst of all the spears. Skills feels unfinished, the range is way too short, the "big dmg" is not there and good luck catching anybody in WvW with your "amazing" spear 4. In my opinion is boring and very very bad in every game mode. At least if it was good in PvE, at least... but nope, we are having the most boring and useless weapon in the game ,even the icons on spear skills  are bad . I am necromancer main and thats not going to change just because of the bad  spear but man, i wish we had something like  Warrior spear, something that gives us range power weapon with some survivability  and cool skills but nope. 

[calva.2914]

4 hours ago, Memento Mori.1326 said:

Necromancer spear is the worst of all the spears. Skills feels unfinished, the range is way too short, the "big dmg" is not there and good luck catching anybody in WvW with your "amazing" spear 4. In my opinion is boring and very very bad in every game mode. At least if it was good in PvE, at least... but nope, we are having the most boring and useless weapon in the game ,even the icons on spear skills  are bad . I am necromancer main and thats not going to change just because of the bad  spear but man, i wish we had something like  Warrior spear, something that gives us range power weapon with some survivability  and cool skills but nope. 

I wouldn’t call it the most boring/useless weapon in the game…engi shortbow exists.