Cancel Spellbreaker and Rework Rewards

[vcxxx.3159]

2 Part Thread:

Part 1: Cancel Spellbreaker

There is no other build in the game that literally requires you to ignore it to succeed. Too many matches in the past few days (basically 80%) are decided by whether or not the enemy team has a spellbreaker and whether or not my team chooses to ignore it or lose the other 2 points 3v1ing him. I just finished a match and we lost because we had to 3v1 the spb all game. Granted it did feel good to get the kills, but at the end she said, and I quote, "You guys shouldn't put so many resources into me." These people know they're playing an abusive build and don't care because it guarentees them rewards 80% of the time. I did MAT for the first time this weekend and lo and behold, Naru's team was running 3 spellbreakers. The gameplay was honestly so abusive I literally afked at the end and I never afk.

Part 1.5: Disable capture progress on blocks and evades

If nothing changes with these block and evade builds at least capture point progress should be changed. If you're holding a point by spamming blocks and evades you shouldn't be able to delay caps or hold caps. I mean how different is daggerstorm compared to distortion?

Part 2: Rewards

I've seen a lot of people post about how rewards shouldn't change based on effort because it would lead to people doing stuff like triple capping home. But I really do think effort based rewards need to be introduced. I was sweating my tail off yesterday for like 3 hours getting 17+ kills every match and still taking Ls. (At least a third of those games we were comfortably up over 100 points killing enemies, controlling map then somehow couldnt get a kill or cap after 400). And what did I get? Barely 2 tiers on the byzantium chest. Even with an 80% win rate you're still only making like 10g/ hr doing pvp, but when those loss streaks start adding up the rewards become completely stagnant. What should take 45 mins becomes 2.5 hours. Honestly I just want to be rewarded for my effort. If every game becomes a dps/ healing/ capping/ defending/ revive battle fine, I think people should be rewarded if they're excelling in those tasks. At the very least we should get an extra pip for top stats. Maybe t6 bloods, claws, and fangs for dps and kills; scales and totems for healing; bones and venom sacs for defense and offense, crystalline dust for revives for example.

Conclusion:

I spend 95% of my time in game doing pvp. I'm actually the only person on the leaderboard that logs 1300+ games each season. I find it very unsettling to have to spam team chat with "ignore home" because some cheeky noob has to impose his broken build on the match because he can't excel at anything else. Changing the way capture point progress works might address the viability of these abusive builds. And extra pips or t6 boxes should address the stagnantion that happens during loss streaks.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I do like the idea of disabling cap progress on defenses, already happens on stealth.  This would actually make a lot of bunker builds play smarter as can't just camp the node without it starting to go neutral if they are burning too many defenses.

Spellbreaker, sure nerf it but at least make Berserker great again.  Warrior is a lot like Engi right now where they have one utterly useless spec (Mech/Bladesworn) then some sort of useable specs (Core War/Berserker/Holo) then one quite good spec (Spellbreaker/Scrapper).  Guess you can include Rev here too, with like Rene and Herald being mostly trash tier and Vindi being degen.

They need to spread that out more.  Like Ele, Ranger, Thief, and Guard all have a few different builds to use, not just 'terrible build' vs. 'the most degen thing ever to exist' builds you see on War, Necro, and Mes atm.

As for rewards on loss, wish they'd just make losses less volatile then they are now.  They should ramp up, you start losing at like -2 then go to -15 if you go on a 10-loss streak or something.  Same with wins too.

 

[Hotride.2187]

SPB has endure pain, defiant stance, FC is an absorb, adrenal health and staff heals are just heals. Sword 4 is the only block. I.e. its not a build that leans into evades and blocks.

If evades and blocks disable capture ticks, other types of bunkering remains (e.g. simply condi bunkering, like druid). So I doubt this will achieve anything.

[notamain.2839]

37 minutes ago, vcxxx.3159 said:

I'm actually the only person on the leaderboard that logs 1300+ games each season

Get well soon!

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

SPB has endure pain, defiant stance, FC is an absorb, adrenal health and staff heals are just heals. Sword 4 is the only block. I.e. its not a build that leans into evades and blocks.

If evades and blocks disable capture ticks, other types of bunkering remains (e.g. simply condi bunkering, like druid). So I doubt this will achieve anything.

That's good example, things like Defiant Stance should stop capture progress.  Most Druids take Celestial Shadow which cancels cap anyway but could also have cap progress stop if you use Dolyak stance, Stone Signet or something.  

Basically, any long running defense that's used just to bunker should prevent capture progress.  That way you actually fight over a node and whoever is using the least defensives to do this gets the advantage.  

[Flowki.7194]

Warrior in w/e current itteration, owning 1/3 of the game just for picking warrior, is sPVP working as intended. Aparently.

 

Common denomitor I called it for ages, the game will end up with nothing but warrior/necro/gaurd representation. Their base mechanics are the most foolproof, and the general ethos of Anet and the playerbase is that effort/risk should not dictate reward. So there it is, a warrior spec that now dominates 1v1s, can hold 1v2 very well with los abuse, and now has the mobility/range to +1 roam. It will now also be a decent group fighter with the range+melee, given multiple spike dps panic buttons if primaried, and still being able to slot unblockable, all of this in 1 single spec, doing it all, for minimal effort. Poor warrior.

Edited August 27 by Flowki.7194

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

That's good example, things like Defiant Stance should stop capture progress.  Most Druids take Celestial Shadow which cancels cap anyway but could also have cap progress stop if you use Dolyak stance, Stone Signet or something.  

Basically, any long running defense that's used just to bunker should prevent capture progress.  That way you actually fight over a node and whoever is using the least defensives to do this gets the advantage.  

I think the distinction is that some things are true invulns and others are not. DS for example still allows CCs and soft condis through. Endure Pain just negates strike damage and still allows condis and CCs through. Compared to Distortion, which is a full invuln blocking condi and strike damage and CCs. Since the psuedo invulns can still be CC'd they can be knocked off the point. Evade frames not allowing for point capture contribution makes sense though, 100%.

[WingSwipe.3084]

8 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Warrior in w/e current itteration, owning 1/3 of the game just for picking warrior, is sPVP working as intended. Aparently.

 

Common denomitor I called it for ages, the game will end up with nothing but warrior/necro/gaurd representation. Their base mechanics are the most foolproof, and the general ethos of Anet and the playerbase is that effort/risk should not dictate reward. So there it is, a warrior spec that now dominates 1v1s, can hold 1v2 very well with los abuse, and now has the mobility/range to +1 roam. It will now also be a decent group fighter with the range+melee, given multiple spike dps panic buttons if primaried, and still being able to slot unblockable, all of this in 1 single spec, doing it all, for minimal effort. Poor warrior.

Its gone so far at this point that id please ask to keep the word "Warrior" and "Spellbreaker" separate.

Playing anything other then Spellbreaker and getting mirror matched into a Spellbreaker feels like coming home to an abusive household.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Its gone so far at this point that id please ask to keep the word "Warrior" and "Spellbreaker" separate.

Playing anything other then Spellbreaker and getting mirror matched into a Spellbreaker feels like coming home to an abusive household.

Which is kinda funny, cause core shouts used to cause trouble for str spb.

[Eventine.8024]

12 hours ago, vcxxx.3159 said:

2 Part Thread:

Part 1: Cancel Spellbreaker

There is no other build in the game that literally requires you to ignore it to succeed. Too many matches in the past few days (basically 80%) are decided by whether or not the enemy team has a spellbreaker and whether or not my team chooses to ignore it or lose the other 2 points 3v1ing him. I just finished a match and we lost because we had to 3v1 the spb all game. Granted it did feel good to get the kills, but at the end she said, and I quote, "You guys shouldn't put so many resources into me." These people know they're playing an abusive build and don't care because it guarentees them rewards 80% of the time. I did MAT for the first time this weekend and lo and behold, Naru's team was running 3 spellbreakers. The gameplay was honestly so abusive I literally afked at the end and I never afk.

Part 1.5: Disable capture progress on blocks and evades

If nothing changes with these block and evade builds at least capture point progress should be changed. If you're holding a point by spamming blocks and evades you shouldn't be able to delay caps or hold caps. I mean how different is daggerstorm compared to distortion?

Part 2: Rewards

I've seen a lot of people post about how rewards shouldn't change based on effort because it would lead to people doing stuff like triple capping home. But I really do think effort based rewards need to be introduced. I was sweating my tail off yesterday for like 3 hours getting 17+ kills every match and still taking Ls. (At least a third of those games we were comfortably up over 100 points killing enemies, controlling map then somehow couldnt get a kill or cap after 400). And what did I get? Barely 2 tiers on the byzantium chest. Even with an 80% win rate you're still only making like 10g/ hr doing pvp, but when those loss streaks start adding up the rewards become completely stagnant. What should take 45 mins becomes 2.5 hours. Honestly I just want to be rewarded for my effort. If every game becomes a dps/ healing/ capping/ defending/ revive battle fine, I think people should be rewarded if they're excelling in those tasks. At the very least we should get an extra pip for top stats. Maybe t6 bloods, claws, and fangs for dps and kills; scales and totems for healing; bones and venom sacs for defense and offense, crystalline dust for revives for example.

Conclusion:

I spend 95% of my time in game doing pvp. I'm actually the only person on the leaderboard that logs 1300+ games each season. I find it very unsettling to have to spam team chat with "ignore home" because some cheeky noob has to impose his broken build on the match because he can't excel at anything else. Changing the way capture point progress works might address the viability of these abusive builds. And extra pips or t6 boxes should address the stagnantion that happens during loss streaks.

I brought these problems on a MyghtyTeapot stream and he told me to "get gud". 

I completely agree with your part 1 and part 1.5, and I HATE warriors since 2012 (they get it always easy in PvP/WvW: tons of damage and burst, blocks, invuln, unblockable attacks, boon removal, a lot of movement speed, high life and armor, etc.), but I think that most of the ""pro"" community doesn't think like us. 

Personally I do not understand how a game mode like PvP (with no tank stats combo and runes), accepts so many blocks and invul while also allowing you to contest the point.

[Eventine.8024]

11 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Like Ele

Tell me the last time an Ele won a monthly tournament. Or a top team legit played ele not for a meme.

[WingSwipe.3084]

5 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Tell me the last time an Ele won a monthly tournament. Or a top team legit played ele not for a meme.

Has everyone forgot the Cata 5 man stack menace this quickly?

[Flowki.7194]

9 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Its gone so far at this point that id please ask to keep the word "Warrior" and "Spellbreaker" separate.

Playing anything other then Spellbreaker and getting mirror matched into a Spellbreaker feels like coming home to an abusive household.

Just stow

Spoiler

The same SPBs that never do basic boon checks before CC, coz you know, rip/unblockable bloat. The same SPBs that have fed my GS 4 on numerous occasions, etc.

 

51 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Has everyone forgot the Cata 5 man stack menace this quickly?

People need to stop using MATs as an example for sPVP balance. Instead.. use sPVP representations as an insight to sPVP balance. In that scenario, ele has always been on the low end of representation, even during tempest support and power cata scepter/hammer meta. It only seen a spike of rep during condi cata, just like any other broken specs did, like SLB, scrapper, Staff warrior, mace ranger, and so on.

 

Warrior, necro, and gaurdian, in various itterations, have dominated sPVP representation from tempest meta to now, and increasingly so. That fact gets overlooked becuase all people do is compare MAT rep, which does not apply.. and clearly does not back up sPVP "true meta", which is different in sPVP. Different specs perform better/worse at different skill levels, and at different levels of organisation. Clearly this is reflected in the fact that it doesnt matter what support spec is meta, it sucks in solo que sPVP. Theres the hint.

Edited August 28 by Flowki.7194

[vcxxx.3159]

11 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

I brought these problems on a MyghtyTeapot stream and he told me to "get gud". 

I'm thoroughly convinced that these people are really just trolls and have no ambition to advocate for balance because they enjoy playing the game on easy mode and prefer to afk on far rather than actually play the game.

Yup. You heard it first here folks. Spellbreaker is basically an afk build that wins you matches.

[Aaron.1294]

@vcxxx.3159@Eventine.8024You troll yourself if you believe everything you ask for....

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

17 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Tell me the last time an Ele won a monthly tournament. Or a top team legit played ele not for a meme.

Ele is more than fine.  Top teams are based around FoTM as that's what is quick win.

[WingSwipe.3084]

16 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The same SPBs that never do basic boon checks before CC, coz you know, rip/unblockable bloat. The same SPBs that have fed my GS 4 on numerous occasions, etc.

People need to stop using MATs as an example for sPVP balance. Instead.. use sPVP representations as an insight to sPVP balance. In that scenario, ele has always been on the low end of representation, even during tempest support and power cata scepter/hammer meta. It only seen a spike of rep during condi cata, just like any other broken specs did, like SLB, scrapper, Staff warrior, mace ranger, and so on.

Oh I wasnt refering to the Cata menace time due to MATs, I couldnt care less about MATs representation.

I played during these times and VIVIDLY  remember there being at least 3 Catas in each team for a solid two months. It made Ranked unplayable.

I will never stop using this as example for one simple reason, quote: “Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It.”

This goes for every time a profession is disgustingly broken, like Tanksworn or "Instant kill combo from stealth" Soulbeast.

[zonias.1083]

On 8/27/2024 at 11:16 PM, Hotride.2187 said:

If evades and blocks disable capture ticks, other types of bunkering remains (e.g. simply condi bunkering, like druid). So I doubt this will achieve anything.

i agree with the take, if not evading and blocking, then you are susceptible to dmg so you can try bursting them. Warrior uses for example blocks to lure people into mele to contest the node. They block if you do not go in they get the node, and if  you do go in then the unleash all their dmg and try one shot you. It feels with the current version of warrior a lose lose situation no matter what you choose, either you lose the node and lose points slowly, or you pray that you survive. 

[Shagie.7612]

for what it's worth there's been like, one balance patch since the last time when a FA cata (i think it was?) won

that still really sucks but on the grand scale of anet pacing, it's not that long ago lol

(i hope some ele gets upset that at this clear and obvious hyperbole and points out that there's ackshually been x number of patches)

[Flowki.7194]

12 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Oh I wasnt refering to the Cata menace time due to MATs, I couldnt care less about MATs representation.

I played during these times and VIVIDLY  remember there being at least 3 Catas in each team for a solid two months. It made Ranked unplayable.

I will never stop using this as example for one simple reason, quote: “Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It.”

This goes for every time a profession is disgustingly broken, like Tanksworn or "Instant kill combo from stealth" Soulbeast.

Yeah that was the same thing. It was one of the rare builds that was better than most other specs at the time, and dominated both MATs and sPVP, becuase it could be played to high effect at low skill level. That spec highlights the backwards logic of giving low skill floor specs high skill floor/ceiling rewards (just like SPB for the last year). Power cata was not like that, nor was vindi, holo, or even DE.. as low risk/toxic as it is.

 

That is why I don't mind seing things like vindi in meta, even if overperforming at higher level, becuase mid/low level vindis will not do much damage, unlike those low/mid level signet catas did.. or now low/mid level SPBs. Something has to be meta, so the higher the skill floor of meta builds, the better.

Edited August 29 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 lets make a difference between defence spellbreaker and Strength spellbreaker... Both are kinda good but the later is like 90% harder to make realy good use out off it ^^

[Flowki.7194]

Just now, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 lets make a difference between defence spellbreaker and Strength spellbreaker... Both are kinda good but the later is like 90% harder to make realy good use out off it ^^

I think in SPBs current state, you would really have to go out of your way to make a "difficult and punishing spec". This is like the virt who still tries to convince me his build is glass, yeah ok maybe.. if only compared to bunker virt.

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 nah the diff is that warrior (specialy spellbreaker) rn is very clearly carried by weapons and Defence line. So yes going for something Else than defence line will make it ways harder to win anything. Just trust me when it comes to this Sir. 

Its not that im telling your that its hard glassy now cause thats not the case. Its only that its clearly not as overperforming as defence warr does and its not even close ^^

Edited August 30 by Myror.7521

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 nah the diff is that warrior (specialy spellbreaker) rn is very clearly carried by weapons and Defence line. So yes going for something Else than defence line will make it ways harder to win anything. Just trust me when it comes to this Sir. 

Its not that im telling your that its hard glassy now cause thats not the case. Its only that its clearly not as overperforming as defence warr does and its not even close ^^

The difference is, str SPB gets forced off the node by 2 players and has to do jumping puzzles if both decide to chase. Or try to quickly kill one while the other is capping the node. Smart players will decap 2v1 then leave 1 sidenoder to fight the SPB. Or if they are good enough / the SPB kittens up, they kill the SPB and move on to mid. And generally anything like thief +1 kills you if you fail to see the player coming (which for thief is easy to do).

Defense staff just stays on the node vs 2 players, that is not OK.

[Flowki.7194]

11 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 nah the diff is that warrior (specialy spellbreaker) rn is very clearly carried by weapons and Defence line. So yes going for something Else than defence line will make it ways harder to win anything. Just trust me when it comes to this Sir. 

Its not that im telling your that its hard glassy now cause thats not the case. Its only that its clearly not as overperforming as defence warr does and its not even close ^^

SPBs issues are an accumulation of many factors, the aweful ethos of effort should not dictate reward to name but one. FC and DS are also big issues.

 

8 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

The difference is, str SPB gets forced off the node by 2 players and has to do jumping puzzles if both decide to chase. Or try to quickly kill one while the other is capping the node. Smart players will decap 2v1 then leave 1 sidenoder to fight the SPB. Or if they are good enough / the SPB kittens up, they kill the SPB and move on to mid. And generally anything like thief +1 kills you if you fail to see the player coming (which for thief is easy to do).

Defense staff just stays on the node vs 2 players, that is not OK.

But notice how normalised it is for an SPB to require a 2v1 to push off point.. as if that is ok. Then you go on to thief, as if all specs are not absolutely prone to being +1d by it... while being able to do very little to the thief in return. Thats a general thief problem of mobility creep, not an "SPB is kept in check" argument.. we are not all thiefs, and there are plenty specs have more difficulty dealing with a thief +1 than SPB. That isnt so obvious, becuase most specs don't get played for things like that.. the dominance of warrior/thief on sides.. and the dominance of necro/gaurd on mid, in various itterations over time.

Edited August 30 by Flowki.7194