Stop Treating WvW like a GvG environment

[Mara Jack.9305]

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Also you are still using kills only as a measure of  "activity".  There isn't a 1:1 relationship there.  Two servers can be credited for a single kill.

Regardless if 2 people got a kill on 1 person, that amount stays consistent between the two matchups of:

2023.07.29 - 2023.08.05 - 496 048

2024.08.03 - 2024.08.10 - 414 928

If the 2 kill per 1 death occurred in 2023.07.29 - 2023.08.05, it can just as well occur in 2024.08.03 - 2024.08.10

[Mara Jack.9305]

5 minutes ago, Mara Jack.9305 said:

24-6-7 -> 24-6-14 matchup (Final matchup pre WR)

Total K+D EU (all tiers) - 807801

Total K+D NA (all tiers) - 738752

 

24-8-2 -> 24-8-9 (Final matchup pre Janthir Wilds API shutdown)

Total K+D EU (all tiers) - 803780 (-0.5%)

Total K+D NA (all tiers) - 770414 (+4.2%)

The 2nd post is just a detailed view of the 2024.08.09 skirmish

All these numbers show the activity post WR, so they are comparing post WR with post WR, as compared to pre WR and post WR

No, I just looked closer at this one

This is 1 week prior to WR and the following week.

Here we see a drop in activity in EU, and a 4.2% increase in the first week of NA

Which I experienced when I saw queues on every map. But that was people checking out the newly implemented system 

[Arete.7019]

The werdes sites numbers don't really seem correct, they don't line up with what I recorded from the API or with the current matchup, but idk whats going on there. Anyway here's the last four years for roughly the same week using their numbers https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JwPQEX9Q-KHcCOazF3FgGeOy7oubm5kMWOZL4ymyOVU/edit?usp=sharing. Lowest numbers being right during peak COVID seems kinda off, but I guess you could make some fun conclusions from that data like "peak boonball balancing increased numbers but WR decreased them". I'm sure many in these forums will love that take.

[Chaba.5410]

20 minutes ago, Mara Jack.9305 said:

All these numbers show the activity post WR, so they are comparing post WR with post WR, as compared to pre WR and post WR

Which numbers?  Arete was comparing the last match pre-WR with a post-WR one.

[Mara Jack.9305]

6 minutes ago, Arete.7019 said:

The werdes sites numbers don't really seem correct, they don't line up with what I recorded from the API or with the current matchup, but idk whats going on there. Anyway here's the last four years for roughly the same week using their numbers https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JwPQEX9Q-KHcCOazF3FgGeOy7oubm5kMWOZL4ymyOVU/edit?usp=sharing. Lowest numbers being right during peak COVID seems kinda off, but I guess you could make some fun conclusions from that data like "peak boonball balancing increased numbers but WR decreased them". I'm sure many in these forums will love that take.

Thank you very much for the spreadsheet with the data of the same skirmish over the past 4 years

Based on the data from the same skirmish from pre WR and post WR on these two matches between July and Aug was:

2023.07.28 - 2023.08.04 - 501842

2024.07.26 - 2024.08.02 - 423385

This is a 19% decrease in activity, which is very similar to the result from Cuks.8241

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, Mara Jack.9305 said:

Thank you very much for the spreadsheet with the data of the same skirmish over the past 4 years

Based on the data from the same skirmish from pre WR and post WR on these two matches between July and Aug was:

2023.07.28 - 2023.08.04 - 501842

2024.07.26 - 2024.08.02 - 423385

This is a 19% decrease in activity, which is very similar to the result from Cuks.8241

That longer term trend should be expected as the game ages though.  If we had numbers from even further back, we'd see the same downward trend probably.  The thread was more focused on the impact of WR and "alliances".  Arete's earlier comparison suggests the drop due to WR isn't so drastic and even shows a potential increase in NA.

Edited September 4 by Chaba.5410

[Mara Jack.9305]

5 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

That longer term trend should be expected as the game ages though.  If we had numbers from even further back, we'd see the same downward trend probably.  The thread was more focused on the impact of WR and "alliances".  Arete's earlier comparison suggests the drop due to WR isn't so drastic and even shows a potential increase in NA.

Based on the data provided by Arete.7019, this particular skirmish was scored at 433674 in 2021, 379244 in 2022, 501842 in 2023, and 423385 in 2024

I'm only here to comment on statistics, not hypotheticals

Given this data, the number of K+D in 2024 is the same as 2021, a smaller amount than 2023 after a large dip in 2022 

As for the 4.2% increase during NA in the mentioned post, it was the first week, so people are more keen to check out the new system and hence, every map is queued

So much so that anet decided to add T5 to NA

Then they removed T5 soon after the initial launch excitement 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Now. I hope you read it. Can you now pretty please stop projecting so hard you put other words and meanings into what I said there fighting some user that doesn't exist other than in your head?

Except for you keep going in this very topic about API endpoints and calendar months, all to prove a point which is simultaneously being disproven by the numbers posted in this topic.  

To break it down for you, screenshots are called testimonials, it is what is used between your feelings (anecdotal evidence) and actual hard numbers.  When I asked for testimonials, we didn't have any hard numbers, just people saying it's the forums being the forums and everything is fine--we now have hard numbers, so I no longer really care about testimonials as the point is proven.  

I also don't care about the other user with 6 posts, it screams alt to me so I'm ignoring them.  You were just collateral as happened to echo a similar statement to the other user, but did not have me feeling like you are a bot / alt.

I'm happy with the discussion as-is now, no real reason to go in circles when we have proof that WR surely isn't helping matters.  

[Chaba.5410]

50 minutes ago, Mara Jack.9305 said:

Based on the data provided by Arete.7019, this particular skirmish was scored at 433674 in 2021, 379244 in 2022, 501842 in 2023, and 423385 in 2024

I'm only here to comment on statistics, not hypotheticals

Given this data, the number of K+D in 2024 is the same as 2021, a smaller amount than 2023 after a large dip in 2022 

As for the 4.2% increase during NA in the mentioned post, it was the first week, so people are more keen to check out the new system and hence, every map is queued

So much so that anet decided to add T5 to NA

Then they removed T5 soon after the initial launch excitement 

No hypotheticals intended.  The thread is about discussing the impact to the activity levels/population as a result of WR.

Like, not really sure what you're using the data for.  We can look at data and find all sorts of interesting things, sure.  But what are you trying to say with that data?

[Chaba.5410]

56 minutes ago, Mara Jack.9305 said:

So much so that anet decided to add T5 to NA

Pretty sure they did that in both NA and EU (which didn't have a +4% increase) because in past betas there was a flood of players wanting to "try the new thing".

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I gotchu bro:

Now you can fight with math and tell me how these numbers are a 'forum only' thing.

It's not flawed.  The evidence is above, there's a sharp drop in activity, to mask this they make up a new scoring algorithm to keep things close.  This isn't hard.  

Yes, and do those numbers indicate a mass exodus?

They do not.

Think before you post!

Not only that, but after a period of adjusting, and bug fixes (let's remember how WR launched) the number is growing again.

The only thing which is correct is that WR did not result in a massiv reinvigoration of the mode (which wr all already knew, given the 6 initial weeks had an extra tier). 

The complaint threads of the few weeks especially do not reflect thebin game situation.

Edited September 4 by Cyninja.2954

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

11% for WR transition, during which Anet badly fumbled the ball with team creation...
Ye, thats a bit low for how bad things were, and they were REALLY bad.

Seems off hours suffer far more during that particular 1st week than prime time, becuz Prime time is where most of the KD comes from.
11% overall dip, probably means they had less than 10% activity decrease.
Whereas offhours, when a lot of forum players go into WvW, wud be far more heavily impacted.

It would be more accurate to assume that Offhours WvW is dying rapidly, while prime time doesn't see too much decline, if at all.
...which is bad anyway, but ultimately salvageable if Anet suddenly pulled a 180. (*copium)
 

[StuckHat.8061]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, and do those numbers indicate a mass exodus?

They do not.

Think before you post!

Not only that, but after a period of adjusting, and bug fixes (let's remember how WR launched) the number is growing again.

The only thing which is correct is that WR did not result in a massiv reinvigoration of the mode (which wr all already knew, given the 6 initial weeks had an extra tier). 

The complaint threads of the few weeks especially do not reflect thebin game situation.

For over two years you've used "Works on my machine" as an excuse against WvW doing badly.

I wouldn't trust your interpretation of any data no matter how smarmy or insufferable you phrase it.

[Mabi black.1824]

8 hours ago, Mara Jack.9305 said:

The numbers are already in, we can see a sharp decline in activity immediately after WR

2024.06.08 - 2024.06.15 - 454 688

2024.07.13 - 2024.07.20 - 402 449

Activity dropped by around 11%

Death and kills are directly proportional 1:1 in WvW, barring occasional NPC deaths, which the difference between player killed by NPC in those 2 weeks is negligible 

And looking at the previous kills history from Cuks.8241 over the past year, all activity trended downward by around 20% post WR

Consider:

2023.07.29 - 2023.08.05 - 496 048

2024.08.03 - 2024.08.10 - 414 928

That is (-19%) activity in the same time last year

Note that WR was on 2024.06.14

Thank you very much for the data you reported and for your analysis. This post has turned into something very interesting. while someone claimed that everything is + or - as before, accusing the forum of expressing only the fantasies of a few players. 

[Mabi black.1824]

Losing 20% of activity in 12 months is something that should attract the attention of development, and of those who love this mode. Especially since this issue is a direct consequence of WR, which manifested the impact within WVW long before it went live, starting with the first beta, when this community realized how WVW was really changing. When we saw the WR betas arrive we really saw the team/server concept kicked out. is the precise reason why I joined this forum. when I saw the first beta 3 years ago. And for what? To grant an update to WVW that should make it more interesting? that should attract players? But how can you not see that we are going in the wrong direction?

[Mabi black.1824]

This is why some of us, who have always been passionate about this mode, who saw all this coming in advance, became concerned, and chose to share these concerns. And with the awareness that for Anet it is work and time spent in WVW, they asked and suggested a compromise of how to use/exploit the work of WR, still trying to keep the team/server concept important. This is a team/server game, if we want to make it interesting and capable of engaging and dragging the players who participate, we must at least give competitive seasons of 12 months to all the teams/servers that participate. give interesting maps. give an interesting points system. build seasons. emphasizing diversity, belonging, confrontation etc etc.

wvw is that stuff there, so push on that stuff there. Making the team/server useless, with the result that no one gives a kitten about your server's score, status, ranking, certainly doesn't help. And that number (unfortunately) will be destined to grow if no one does anything.

but hey don't worry too much, don't look at that 180 jump you should do (plus everything else) because all this is just the imagination of a few of us.😉

Edited September 4 by Mabi black.1824

[Dawdler.8521]

24 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Losing 20% of activity in 12 months is something that should attract the attention of development, and of those who love this mode. Especially since this issue is a direct consequence of WR, which manifested the impact within WVW long before it went live, starting with the first beta, when this community realized how WVW was really changing. When we saw the WR betas arrive we really saw the team/server concept kicked out. is the precise reason why I joined this forum. when I saw the first beta 3 years ago. And for what? To grant an update to WVW that should make it more interesting? that should attract players? But how can you not see that we are going in the wrong direction?

When you joined 3 years ago? The same data show the exact same activity now, then 2 years ago noticably lower in one of the posts above.

But I guess it’s better to selectively ignore the ups and downs of WvW to better fit a certain point of view.

Edited September 4 by Dawdler.8521

[Mabi black.1824]

9 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

3 years ago? The same data show the exact same activity now, then 2 years ago noticably lower in one of the posts above.

But I guess it’s better to selectively ignore the ups and downs of WvW to better fit a certain point of view.

Almost like quietly ignoring that in a team game mode where we are making the very concept of the team completely useless it is the best thing I could do for WVW.

We also continue to ignore any form of compromise with WR, to be more inclusive, we continue to ignore that we are cutting off a portion of this community of players, and that number will continue to grow. but yes all this makes you feel better, I'm just happy for you. Much less for WVW.

Edited September 4 by Mabi black.1824

[Dawdler.8521]

16 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Almost like quietly ignoring that in a team game mode where we are making the very concept of the team completely useless it is the best thing I could do for WVW.

We also continue to ignore any form of compromise with WR, to be more inclusive, we continue to ignore that we are cutting off a portion of this community of players, and that number will continue to grow. but yes all this makes you feel better, I'm just happy for you. Much less for WVW.

Which is whole other argument, the discussion above was the kills/KD stats over the years where you only looked at a specific peak instead of the lows.

I have been here too long to “feel better” - any change is just a… change. Anet does as Anet wills. I couldn’t care less if they reverted to regular worlds this Friday. It would just be another change.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, StuckHat.8061 said:

For over two years you've used "Works on my machine" as an excuse against WvW doing badly.

I wouldn't trust your interpretation of any data no matter how smarmy or insufferable you phrase it.

That is a blantant lie.

I've been very critical of the games balance direction and celestial gear.

What I have not been very critical of is World Restructuring, at least not in the way others whine about it (I have mentioned the issues I see with it which need addressing).

The issue is people like you which lack amy ability to read data.

FYI: the permanent world restructuring beta we have now launched in January of this year. If your issues with the mode go as far back as 2 years, or longer, you might want to open your mind about this being due to other factors (say balance).

In the end all that too doesn't matter because even if you can't read the data, unless I am gravely incorrect, the question is what the developers see AND if they are willing to commit the resources to revert back to a server system, and THAT is what this ultimately comes down to.

I have made my position clear that I doubt this, you are free to have a different one.

WVw has been im a steady decline since far before the WR beta which any seasoned WvW player is aware of, at least if you've been around for long enough.

Edited September 4 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Losing 20% of activity in 12 months is something that should attract the attention of development, and of those who love this mode. Especially since this issue is a direct consequence of WR, which manifested the impact within WVW long before it went live, starting with the first beta, when this community realized how WVW was really changing. When we saw the WR betas arrive we really saw the team/server concept kicked out. is the precise reason why I joined this forum. when I saw the first beta 3 years ago. And for what? To grant an update to WVW that should make it more interesting? that should attract players? But how can you not see that we are going in the wrong direction?

WvW was declining far earlier than that. Remember reduction of tiers from 5 to 4 in EU right before COVID hit? Of corse you don't because it doesn't fot your narrative.

Here is your reality, try to accept it: unless WvW loses a significant amount of players in a short time, all you are is noise. Noise which will have just as much an effect as before the WR beta was introduced, to say none at all.

You want to change something? Start a boycot. Get all your WvW homies to collectively take action. See how much reach you have and how many players you get convinced.

Edited September 4 by Cyninja.2954

[Mabi black.1824]

35 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

all you are is noise

absolutely true. My only hope is that this noise will reach the ears of development, someone who with an open mind, reason, and intellect can really do something interesting and engaging for everyone, no one excluded. Because despite everything I am still convinced that WVW has great potential if someone wants to take care of it for real.

[Cyninja.2954]

11 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

absolutely true. My only hope is that this noise will reach the ears of development, someone who with an open mind, reason, and intellect can really do something interesting and engaging for everyone, no one excluded. Because despite everything I am still convinced that WVW has great potential if someone wants to take care of it for real.

Noise gets ignored.

Proper arguments, proper analysis of data and constructive ideas MIGHT get listened to.

The later has been severely lacking on this issues from unhappy players. The best some have come up with is "all is doomed, revert to servers".

[One more for the road.8950]

9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Except for you keep going in this very topic about API endpoints and calendar months, all to prove a point which is simultaneously being disproven by the numbers posted in this topic.  

To break it down for you, screenshots are called testimonials, it is what is used between your feelings (anecdotal evidence) and actual hard numbers.  When I asked for testimonials, we didn't have any hard numbers, just people saying it's the forums being the forums and everything is fine--we now have hard numbers, so I no longer really care about testimonials as the point is proven.  

I also don't care about the other user with 6 posts, it screams alt to me so I'm ignoring them.  You were just collateral as happened to echo a similar statement to the other user, but did not have me feeling like you are a bot / alt.

I'm happy with the discussion as-is now, no real reason to go in circles when we have proof that WR surely isn't helping matters.  

What the actual...

I linked to API endpoints because someone claimed nobody had any numbers because they don't work in Anet. Which is wrong considering Anet gives both matches and teams info to pull. That is not me "going on", that is me neutrally offering a fact and a link to the wiki for someone. Or do you see me state anything about the state of the game there? What the information or the numbers say? Do I try to interpret any numbers or information? Read it again. I literally only explain that Anet offers GW2 endpoint, I say nothing about what the endpoints give you. I am not "going on". You are.

And screenshots aren't called testimonials, for real. Go take a screenshot at a moment nobody talking negatively about WR in game, there you go. Do you it yourself. You have your screenshot. That you are just dismissing other posters as "alts" and then hone in on me for some random reason even about what these dismissed "alts" posted, says something, I guess.

There is no circles other than you having an idea that I am writing things that I am not. You seem to not be able to read my posts neutrally.

I honestly don't know if it's a reading comprehension thing or if I should ask you to talk to someone.

[Mike.3196]

14 hours ago, Charall.4710 said:

This is exactly what I have been saying for a while now and it got worse during alliances cause now the top fight guilds are banding together.

For NA majority of the guilds were together so idk if anyone thinks alliance in NA is stacked more then it's just player issue