A New PvP Mode is Coming to Guild Wars 2--We Need Your Help Developing It!

[Malice.5867]

Played about 50 matches so far and besides the 5-6 where I got snowballed to oblivion it was pretty fun. The way I see it, Push to PVP is what EOTM is to WVW. It's a different experience that can bring some desperately needed variety into the game. I agree with a lot of the negative feedback people have, however, I think this is the case because Push completely replaced competitive. This made it super awkward as seasoned completitive players are forced to play a mode meant for beginners, so what do they do? They exploit the living hell out of it becuse they have a deep understanding of the game. If Push was added as a separate queue I'm sure that people would've given it a much fairer shot and actually try to enjoy it.

With this being said, here are a few things that I'd like to see:

• Better visibility on max pushed distance - the flags don't look good and clear enough on the minimap and minimap
• Some sort of indication of the objective route - similar to OW push maps, so it is clear which way the objective will move
• Change the "side objectives" - either remove the artifacts and tranquility (new players ignore the main objective to chase these because it is not obvious what they do) or make them more meaningful, so they are worth capturing
• Have your team always be blue - this has never been an issue in regular PVP, but it really bothered me in Push. After brawling for minutes in the middle and all enemy names being red I had many moments where I'd look at the pushed distance flags and be like "wait, I'm red?!?"

[Kervv.6039]

10 minutes ago, Malice.5867 said:

• Change the "side objectives" - either remove the artifacts and tranquility (new players ignore the main objective to chase these because it is not obvious what they do) or make them more meaningful, so they are worth capturing

I agree the two 'artifacts' are a bit one dimensional with just a straight power boost. But I do think Tranquility works really well for the game type. Giving the team with it the ability to push the marker even with the enemy on it for 10 seconds (at least I think that is the length) can really help turn a battle...or end it quicker. Trying to cap right next to the enemy base with the respawns can take all match ... but if one of you go grab Tranquility you can push it in for the win.

[starhunter.6015]

I am kinda liking Push, it has some issues as many have stated here already.  Though honestly as I played it, I was thinking. The Push game could be modded a bit for 5v5 or even increase the map a lil for 10v10 guild skirmish with WvW rules. 

[Experimentee.7612]

On 9/11/2024 at 10:21 AM, The Gates Assassin.9827 said:

I made a google doc of all of my live notes from games I played with screenshots. I also put a section in with my overall thoughts and some ideas for how to improve the game mode. Check it out here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sm2gMHCAbtNvkMdgSbs9ZVgfeU9nbO2oscWVu4Ng3-4/edit

This is so easy to miss because it was posted as an external link to a Google Doc, but I really hope this gets some attention because the feedback is so detailed and comprehensive. Thanks for putting it together, it's a real gem. Also, too bad you posted your engi builds. I'm going to steal them now and win all my Push games!!
 

Before I dive into my thoughts about the gameplay, I wanted to highlight some more contextual high-level things first.

• My understanding is that players who have not reached PvP rank 18-20 are not able to test the game mode because Push is currently behind the ranked queue. This is a huge problem, because it means those players are unable to try the game mode unless they grind the PvP ranks. As a consequence, it also means that feedback is heavily biased and does not include their thoughts. That's a huge population of PvE and WvW mains, not forgetting those who have only dabbled in PvP before with a rank less than 18-20. This is perhaps the most important audience to get feedback from. These are the players you are trying to attract to PvP and Conquest, after all? Not necessarily people like me who already play Conquest.
   
• The blog post mentioned that the purpose of Push was to act as a stepping stone to Conquest, since players can supposedly find the concept of having multiple nodes difficult to grasp. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but introducing a new game mode with one node doesn't help players become familiar with multiple nodes, so it fails already against the goals Arenanet set itself. But then I tuned into the Arenanet Twitch stream where the game mode was previewed. There, I got a different explanation. That Push was intended to help players learn about GW2 combat in a PvP context. That makes far more sense than helping players become familiar with multiple game modes. But from the games I have played and watched on a few Twitch streams, I don't think it helps that cause either. The style of the combat and gameplays feels like WvW zerg fighting, except on a smaller scale. This is not a style that I see in Conquest too much, so again, I don't think it acts as a good stepping stone for Conquest.
   
• I'm worried, long-term, how this will affect skill balance in PvP. When GW2 first launched, there was a strong commitment to never split skill balance in each of the game modes. Some time later, that commitment could not be fulfilled, and we reached the situation today where many skills perform differently in PvE, WvW and PvP. If Push (or any new PvP game mode) is implemented and is reasonably popular, how will PvP skill balance be managed? As I already stated, the combat style in Push feels very different to Conquest. Arenanet will find itself trying to compromise PvP skill balance between Push and Conquest, which is terrible for both game modes in the long-run. Alternatively, Arenanet will be forced to split skill balance even further so you have PvE, WvW, Conquest and Push. Managing three different sets of skill balance is already such a challenge, adding a fourth set could be a nightmare if Arenanet does not dedicate the resources for it. If four sets of skill balance cannot be managed in the long-run, then I think the new PvP game mode needs to be compatible with Conquest's skill balance. 
   

Alot of my thoughts about the gameplay have been repeated several times already by others, so I'll just mention some of the less common things:

• The movement of the node sideways is unintuitive. Please just make it go along the main path in the centre of the map.
   
• I don't understand why the node needs to have two offset circles. One is a hollow circle raised above the ground, the other is a circle filled with a pattern that is printed onto the ground.  It just adds unnecessary distraction in my opinion. 
   
• I noticed a small but annoyingly noticeable delay between the node changing status between blue, red and neutral. Is it possible for the node to check the capture area for players more frequently?
   
• I haven't thought through this so much, but for a casual PvP mode (not necessarily a stepping stone to Conquest), perhaps you can add several different biomes along the path, each with different types of terrain and challenges. Of course it would have to be perfectly mirrored on each half of the map to make sure no team is disadvantaged, but one biome could be a miniature maze, another could be a type of building, a third could be navigating a hostile yet invulnerable NPC. Furthermore, each biome could contain a debuff, somehow related to its theme, to all players in its proximity.

Edited Monday at 09:28 PM by Experimentee.7612

[coro.3176]

In the interests of making the game more chaotic and fun, would it be possible to disable the ability to call target on other players?

[Xaint.7461]

1.

perhaps remove the fact that u can shoot a whole team with aoe right before match start at their spawn and it will still apply after starting the match as an aoe damaging opposite team aswell as putting them in combat slowing their movement from the very start of the game, this doesnt seem like it has any good place in this new pvp mode.

( in this case ranger with a bow is mainly the case but most likely could be used with ele staff meteor and what else that has a long duration and big aoe )

2.

If you go behind your spawn before match starts and it then starts, u will end up being stuck from being pushed back by some invisible whatever that pushes u back forcing u to relog during the game....... (red side that is i encountered, not gonna test if its the same in the oppose side / team)

 

(whoever's idea it was to put the Alpha state of a new pvp mode calling it 'beta' into Ranked must have been trolling hard)

Edited Tuesday at 05:00 AM by Xaint.7461

[DarkK.7368]

After a lot and lot and lot of games... My main concern is that I feel that games are decided in the first teamfight, that means, in the first minute. Pretty much all the games, you see in the first fight what team is better, and that leads to that team having the objective pretty much 80-90% of the time in their side, so victory. I almost never see tables turning. In Conquest, my feeling was to fight hard every minute cause tides can change at any moment. Exception with exceptionally bad teams, but most of the times I felt tides could change. Here, never.

And well, I maintain the other things I said. I don't like the "forced constant teamfight" feeling. Like 2vs2 and 3vs3's. I miss Conquest team splitting for objectives and the 1vs1 that I can find out there, and how I can feel impactful doing side objectives. Here yeah, 90% of the time I'm the only one that is picking objectives... And I feel they have almost zero impact in the game. Maybe thats why nobody picks them?

Aside from all that, I guess the mode has potential *as a side node* for other people that enjoy this. It's cool to have more variety to increase playerbase, of course it would be adjusted so people can also play this and earn the ranked rewards. It will have no sense if you're forced to play conquest for the rewards, because let's be honest, I play ranked always just for the rewards. Why play unkranked if I'll get the SAME FUN, but less the rewards? Nobody would play this if you can't advance the ranked rewards track, people would just play ranked that gives same fun and more rewards. So two different rank queues seem mandatory with this mode or it will die. And that's fine, different ways to reach legendary PVP armor and titles and stuff.

[Wulfhearth.7962]

After playing about 70 games, here's another, more informed, round of feedback: 

The gamemode is still fun, i've had some very good and satisfying fights even in losing matches. Complete stomps tend to be over fast, which is good. 

However, the first team to capture the point has an advantage in that you need to push twice as long as they did once you get back the point in order to win. Maybe this is an intended part of the mode to make it less volatile and reward a strong start, but it can be quite frustrating to feel like you are fighting an uphill battle all game or you lose in spite of having more node possession overall.  Maybe increased respawn timers could fix this, only the final position of the node matters when the timer runs out, or distance pushed is counted rather than the furthest position you got to. 

Staggered Death Timers are also a huge obstacle to this being a casual entry point into PvP, as well as holding the mode back overall. If your team doesn't all die at the same, it can lead to a downwards spiral of being constantly outnumbered all game. The counterplay to that is disengaging and waiting around until your team respawns while the oponent get's a free push. This feels counterintuitive and frustrating, and if the other team has a deadeye or willbender, it might not even be doable. Please strongly consider everyone who is currently dead (or in downstate, if you want to be extra spicy) respawning together every 10 or 15 seconds rather than everyone having their own separate 10 second timer.

My advice would be to drop the side objectives, especially the damage ones. There's enough crazy blowup in this mode already and when they aren't outright ignored or confusing players, they tend to just be an extra bonus for the winning team to grab on their way back to the fight.  Respawns as well as kiting and catching ranged damage dealers already create enough tension and movement around the map in my opinion, especially if more interesting terrain gets added later. 

 

Which brings me to the obvious polish, which i'm not even sure deserves mentioning. More terrain and a more interesting shape for the push path,  the timeline and point UI actually displaying anything, the push point being prominently visible on the minimap... 

I would also be interested in trying different versions of push with more or less players to see what format really feels best but for now 5v5 is serviceable. 

 

Also, thank you for trying new things and making the playerbase part of the process!

[Desaita.3792]

Played a bunch of this mode over the past week and unlocked the Push Beta Tester title.

Here are my thoughts on the beta test so far:

Artifacts don't seem to have nearly enough impact in this game mode, it hardly seems worthwhile to grab them. I tried viewing stats in my character window to see what exactly they increase but couldn't find my answer. I'm sure I just missing it but they don't FEEL impactful or really pull many players to them and away from just pushing the main point. If this buff could be more impactful it would be great.

Tranquility on this map feels great after it is obtained, it stops capture by the enemy and can easily secure a win, so there is often a fight there by multiple players. However I feel like the spawning of it is not noticeable enough. If there could be implemented a large 5 second countdown leading up to the spawn this would be better.

Capture Point, Im sure the art for this will change from current state but I feel like the singular capture point needs to have more visibility. a larger raised ring of colour or anything that makes it easy to see across the map. Im not sure if other players had this experience but personally Ive lost sight of it in a handful of teamfights and when the whole win depends on this point I don't think being able to lose sight of it is good. Something I also believe is already in development is creating a better visual for which team is in the lead. The little flags are easy to miss.

Side Base Structures. The main point sort of travels in an S shape and something I would think was very cool in this game mode was if each side structure had a cap point. not one to push but one that either spawns you a NPC guard kind of like WvW or one that creates a wide area buff for your team when in the space. This would pull a few players to the "side nodes" of this map and give a more tactical advantage. currently the 5v5 teamfight is somewhat nice, but also sort of feels like a messy cluster with a lack of structure or tactic. Basically, the team with the best AoE DPS and Support/Tank wins. 

More Maps, Im certain this is already a thought on the mind of the developers, but seeing a couple different maps in this playmode would be great. 

 

Thanks for your time developing a new fun playmode!

[calva.2914]

How to deal with the support healing without making them ineffective?

I was just thinking, for specifically the rush game mode. Is it possible to program in a tiered healing debuff. the more healing you have received the less healing you get. 
 

Say for the first 30k healing you get, you get 100% of the healing value. Then after that for the next 30k healing you get you only get 75% of the value. Then repeated for 50% and 25%. Then once you die and respawn the value gets reset to normal again. 
 

this way support is still valuable for the team fights but the longer they dominate the more likely the other team will be able to secure a kill. And then there is no need to bring like 4 supports since it would be overkill. 
 

Just kinda thinking out loud here
 

 

[maxwelgm.4315]

I'm at nearly 200 matches now, and bleeding/rally is really turning out to be a frustrating mechanic for push in particular. It really makes or breaks most teamfights and your team will either be rally machines or will be able to run halfway across the arena while you can secure a kill in a target that is now left alone. I also won a match by willbending my way across the whole map to a Necro that kept trying to res while I would go back and forth from teamfights and back to poke him. A player should not be able to accidentally or purposely grief so hard. Maybe even removing rallies/bleeding or somewhat tuning it would be best. It shouldn't be so easy to turn a glass cannon into an AoE res machine.

[Woop S.7851]

Overall fun map mode! Thanks so much! 👍 A few additional comments if I may:

1. To prevent spawn camping at the red spawn, consider raising it higher above ground. Currently, the blue team can reach the red spawn by standing on the edges of the raised structure, see this screenshot.
2. The number of AFK bots at red spawn increased recently, likely being used for farming & due to item 1 above
3. GW1 Ancestral Lands map example (below): features flat terrain with minimal elevation and a central structure surrounded by capture points.
    
4. GW1 Etnaran Keys map example: Includes diamond-shaped capture points with varied elevation.
    
5. GW1 Fort Aspenwood map example: Red with two siege turtles + NPCs pushing towards a blue fortress.
    

[Desaita.3792]

53 minutes ago, calva.2914 said:

How to deal with the support healing without making them ineffective?

I was just thinking, for specifically the rush game mode. Is it possible to program in a tiered healing debuff. the more healing you have received the less healing you get. 
 

Say for the first 30k healing you get, you get 100% of the healing value. Then after that for the next 30k healing you get you only get 75% of the value. Then repeated for 50% and 25%. Then once you die and respawn the value gets reset to normal again. 
 

this way support is still valuable for the team fights but the longer they dominate the more likely the other team will be able to secure a kill. And then there is no need to bring like 4 supports since it would be overkill. 
 

Just kinda thinking out loud here
 

 

 

Not a fan of the idea of further punishing support/bunker builds since supports/bunkers have already received so many debuffs over the years, the main one being that not a singular healing amulet is available anymore, and the same could be said for every toughness or vitality amulet. and I don't mean as a secondary stat. I think rebalancing the game with one set of stats and available builds across all game modes and then just tweaking everything in one place would be a better solution. Most current supports can be fairly easily killed by spamming poison or stun.

[calva.2914]

6 minutes ago, Desaita.3792 said:

 

Not a fan of the idea of further punishing support/bunker builds since supports/bunkers have already received so many debuffs over the years, the main one being that not a singular healing amulet is available anymore, and the same could be said for every toughness or vitality amulet. and I don't mean as a secondary stat. I think rebalancing the game with one set of stats and available builds across all game modes and then just tweaking everything in one place would be a better solution. Most current supports can be fairly easily killed by spamming poison or stun.

Yeh, I don’t know if it would work out. Just got the idea watching one of the streamers that did a small PvP tourney with the usual tournament players. One team ran basically 4 supports and no one really died. They did a best of 5 and they easily won 3 in a row. 

[Desaita.3792]

Sadly in PvP some builds and classes are simply far more powerful than everything else. Did the winning team use a Spellbreaker, Druid, Tempest, or Herald? These are easily some of the most problematic and overpowered specializations.

[calva.2914]

10 minutes ago, Desaita.3792 said:

Sadly in PvP some builds and classes are simply far more powerful than everything else. Did the winning team use a Spellbreaker, Druid, Tempest, or Herald? These are easily some of the most problematic and overpowered specializations.

So just rewatched the video, it was 3 supports. 
 

support core war, support chrono, support vindicator. Then they had a dps spell breaker, and a reaper. 

[Desaita.3792]

sadly then the issue was not support, warrior in general is busted but if they had both a spellbreaker and a support warrior its kind of game. reaper is often abused because high access to stun and fear

[Chaos God.1639]

I think the capture area under the cloud should be bigger, so that players inside the capture area won't be an easy target to all types of damage. there will be also more space to fight like inside the capture area in the middle of the map 'Legacy of the Foefire'.

[Desaita.3792]

7 minutes ago, Chaos God.1639 said:

I think the capture area under the cloud should be bigger, so that players inside the capture area won't be an easy target to all types of damage. there will be also more space to fight like inside the capture area in the middle of the map 'Legacy of the Foefire'.

yea i like this idea

[coro.3176]

2 hours ago, calva.2914 said:

How to deal with the support healing without making them ineffective?

I was just thinking, for specifically the rush game mode. Is it possible to program in a tiered healing debuff. the more healing you have received the less healing you get. 
 

I think it's a mistake to focus on healing. Most of the reason why support is so busted in this game mode is not actually raw healing. It's more stuff like anti-projectile bubbles, auras, shared stab/protec/resist, and shared cleanse.

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, calva.2914 said:

How to deal with the support healing without making them ineffective?

I was just thinking, for specifically the rush game mode. Is it possible to program in a tiered healing debuff. the more healing you have received the less healing you get. 
 

Say for the first 30k healing you get, you get 100% of the healing value. Then after that for the next 30k healing you get you only get 75% of the value. Then repeated for 50% and 25%. Then once you die and respawn the value gets reset to normal again. 
 

this way support is still valuable for the team fights but the longer they dominate the more likely the other team will be able to secure a kill. And then there is no need to bring like 4 supports since it would be overkill. 
 

Just kinda thinking out loud here
 

 

Trebs at each team close to base, repair kits are nearby there. For once trebs will be usefull to force ppl of that node and support may try if they want to out support that, they won't for long

[Luthan.5236]

I have tried to play my "own" (= no meta) build that I play usually in conquest ... normally in the push. Like ... only the 4th match. Before that I tried different stuff/builds. I am just too used to my own style. Want modes where I can play that style. Not the mode dictating another style.

Instead of trying to play bunker-ish and going melee into the circle I stayed a bit ranged and with CC and damage. Trying to single out targets to down/kill them. This felt a lot better. Not better than conquest. But also not bad and not worse than the 2vs2 and 3vs3. (Previously I had ranked those above push. Now push seems better.)

Having to move the circle to the enemy base with short respawn timers feels tedious though. (They will be closer at the circle I think.) Not sure how the whole secondary mechanics and the respawn timer works. (If this maybe gets affected and can be shorter/faster in certain cases.) Yet you can lose (but that means the enemy team will have to be really strong). A moving it to the own base (more like a CTF) but sloooly movement - would still be more to my taste. This naturally would mean that the objective is easier to complete. Would mean rounds or a counter ticking. Not just ending after the frist time it got returned.

I'd tie respawn timers to one or another secondary objective. Could be fun.

[Goosekilla.2796]

Push is potentially ok in theory, but it suffers really badly from bad match making algorithms.

In conquest, the strategic complexity can do a bit more to mask bad match making. In push, it is really boring really fast because it doesn't feel like there's really any individual ability to swing a match. You're just completely at the mercy of the match making algorithm. If you get stuck on the worse team, you lose. If you're on the good team, you win. If they had a good MMR system, this wouldn't be a problem. But match making for conquest was already mediocre at best, and Push just highlights this weakness of GW2 PvP because it's completely dependent on good match making. 

Please, take whatever resources you're putting into Push and just put them towards making a really good match making system. Push will never be fun until the MMR algorithm is fixed.

[Goosekilla.2796]

3 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I have tried to play my "own" (= no meta) build that I play usually in conquest ... normally in the push. Like ... only the 4th match. Before that I tried different stuff/builds. I am just too used to my own style. Want modes where I can play that style. Not the mode dictating another style.

Instead of trying to play bunker-ish and going melee into the circle I stayed a bit ranged and with CC and damage. Trying to single out targets to down/kill them. This felt a lot better. Not better than conquest. But also not bad and not worse than the 2vs2 and 3vs3. (Previously I had ranked those above push. Now push seems better.)

Having to move the circle to the enemy base with short respawn timers feels tedious though. (They will be closer at the circle I think.) Not sure how the whole secondary mechanics and the respawn timer works. (If this maybe gets affected and can be shorter/faster in certain cases.) Yet you can lose (but that means the enemy team will have to be really strong). A moving it to the own base (more like a CTF) but sloooly movement - would still be more to my taste. This naturally would mean that the objective is easier to complete. Would mean rounds or a counter ticking. Not just ending after the frist time it got returned.

I'd tie respawn timers to one or another secondary objective. Could be fun.

I suggested this back when it was teased and before we could even play it. Respawns having relation to secondary mechanic would add some depth and prevent the clown fiesta right now that basically makes it so you have to be able to spawn camp the opposing team in order to win before timer.

[Lex.3986]

nice mode, here's some feedback:

make the point more visible
send  some alert when the team is being pushed back

add variety  to buffs, maybe a random attack like djin dominion, or an random npc summon, they're quite powerful as they are rn
it's fun, I'm enjoy it.