Invocation suggestions

[Jobber.6348]

Swap Glaring Resolve (Adept Major) with Contained Temper (Master Minor)

Contained Temper rework:

Gain 15 Energy when you break stun  > F2 Breaks Stuns 

F2 Skills:

Ancient Echo, 20s CD 

True Nature: 20s CD, Upkeep cost

Heroic Command: 10s CD, 10 Energy (probably needs to be rebalanced) 

Energy Meld: 20s CD, 10 Energy/none 

[Virdo.1540]

Id find it perfectly fine, Heroic command could get a slight boon buff (longer might, maybe regen) to bring it in line with all others, so 20sec cooldown. Then it would be a great change.

Tbh how it is now, it stinks hard. Especially when having allies that stunbreak for you & you wanna struggle with the Charged mists threshold

[Arklite.4013]

Unless I'm mistaken, core rev doesn't have an F2 skill does it? Not like that really matters 99% of the time though

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Arklite.4013 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, core rev doesn't have an F2 skill does it? Not like that really matters 99% of the time though

  Ancient Echo. Is like x3 times more powerful than Energy Meld. Is useful even with 0 legends selected, no traits, whereas you need to trait Energy Meld to be as good as Ancient Echo without legend skills or traits.

[Arklite.4013]

13 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Ancient Echo. Is like x3 times more powerful than Energy Meld. Is useful even with 0 legends selected, no traits, whereas you need to trait Energy Meld to be as good as Ancient Echo without legend skills or traits.

I guess I actually could have deduced that from your post, lol.

Also, I don't think I've ever had my bottom traitline be a non-elite spec since I had access to herald, so evidently core Rev is outside of my field

[Buran.3796]

^Arazoth is the one which sometimes likes to run Core Rev. I'm the one which likes to run Vindi but doesn't uses F2.  Has to be one of the worst special skills in the game, since has no personality (steals the animation from a Warrior or Guardian shout), has low impact and overall feels like instead of defining the spec, was added in the last week due ANet forgot about adding F skills to Vindi.  Is not a problem, the Alliance  and the jump are the meat and potatoes of the spec. But they could improve EM just erasing it.

   Ancient Echo used to be mediocre, but they revamped it and is quite useful, specially in PvP.

[Jobber.6348]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Ancient Echo. Is like x3 times more powerful than Energy Meld. Is useful even with 0 legends selected, no traits, whereas you need to trait Energy Meld to be as good as Ancient Echo without legend skills or traits.

Could still use some buffs imo.

I use Core Rev in roaming a ton and it's servicable but it definitely could use some juice compared to other Core specs that have much better gameplay beats than Core Rev, whose Ancient Echo was literally an added button because they designed the entire class with Herald as a baseline, not Core.

Ancient Echo imo could use an instant cast. I'd also change its effect from a mere 25 Energy gain into a Re-invoke of your current Legend with 25 Energy instead of 50 Energy, granting Weapon Swap effects, Legend Swap effects and the unique buffs from the current Legend.

Ventari and Mallyx could also use unique buffs instead of just boons imo. 

Ventari could have a Heal attached to the Regen. 

Mallyx could cast an instant Invoke Torment upon activation.

Really hope this happens one day because it's such a simple change but adds layers to Core Rev that it needed ages ago. Being able to Swap into a fresh Legend then spend Energy and Re-invoke and trigger Song of the Mist or Charged Mist twice? Already much deeper gameplay.

Edited October 1 by Jobber.6348

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

^Arazoth is the one which sometimes likes to run Core Rev. I'm the one which likes to run Vindi but doesn't uses F2.  Has to be one of the worst special skills in the game, since has no personality (steals the animation from a Warrior or Guardian shout), has low impact and overall feels like instead of defining the spec, was added in the last week due ANet forgot about adding F skills to Vindi.  Is not a problem, the Alliance  and the jump are the meat and potatoes of the spec. But they could improve EM just erasing it.

   Ancient Echo used to be mediocre, but they revamped it and is quite useful, specially in PvP.

I am atm in my renegade phase 😂

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

11 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

^Arazoth is the one which sometimes likes to run Core Rev. I'm the one which likes to run Vindi but doesn't uses F2.  Has to be one of the worst special skills in the game, since has no personality (steals the animation from a Warrior or Guardian shout), has low impact and overall feels like instead of defining the spec, was added in the last week due ANet forgot about adding F skills to Vindi.  Is not a problem, the Alliance  and the jump are the meat and potatoes of the spec. But they could improve EM just erasing it.

   Ancient Echo used to be mediocre, but they revamped it and is quite useful, specially in PvP.

If Energy Meld is bad then Ancient Echo is also bad considering EM can be near-identical to AE if you choose the middle trait. The two additional options are also quite good and add versatility to EM. It's also not worth comparing EM and AE in a vacuum (without traits) considering that to have EM you have to have Vindicator and therefore will always have an EM trait. EM is certainly worth using and if you're not using it your vindicator gameplay is suffering a bit.

[Jobber.6348]

10 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

If Energy Meld is bad then Ancient Echo is also bad considering EM can be near-identical to AE if you choose the middle trait. The two additional options are also quite good and add versatility to EM. It's also not worth comparing EM and AE in a vacuum (without traits) considering that to have EM you have to have Vindicator and therefore will always have an EM trait. EM is certainly worth using and if you're not using it your vindicator gameplay is suffering a bit.

The problem with EM is that it costed Energy, not because it was an extra button. That was always the issue, especially coming out of Renegade from PoF that had 3 buttons that costed Energy, only 1 being more widely used because of Alac upkeep. There were also discussions back then about how people hated pressing Orders from Above with sides arguing for and against having Alac being "just a button to press" 

I think EM stinks because it feels shoehorned in, and now it holds 3 traits hostage as they only interact with EM. That's fundamentally bad. Revenant suffers from many "redundancy" traits as I like to call them, something that's born from the Devs' allergic reaction to bloat and their favourite term "purity of purpose"

As a result, Revenant actually has very few "option traits" in the form of gameplay changing features because all they do is swap out properties of existing mechanics/skills. It makes the class alot shallower but also alot weaker whenever the skill or mechanic that the trait supports get slapped because there are no options anymore to diversify the playstyle.

Great example is old Corruption vs new Corruption. In the past, there were options all over that helped the traitline do its intended design of harbouring Conditions, transfering Conditions, and inflicting Conditions. Now it's just Invoke Torment this, Resistance that. 3 GM traits only interact with invoke torment and invoke torment's delay affects all 3 in performance. That's what I mean by making the gameplay shallower and as a result weakening the class because of these overlapping traits just being sacrificed to supporting 1 thing. 

Edited October 2 by Jobber.6348

[Buran.3796]

3 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

If Energy Meld is bad then Ancient Echo is also bad considering EM can be near-identical to AE if you choose the middle trait. 

   With AE you get the free energy with any legend and in Shiro you get two unblockable attacks to deliver in the next 5 seconds and in jalis 3 seconds of 50% physical damage reduction. In PvP/WvW gaining unblockable just before releasing Death Strike in Shiro or adding 3 extra seconds to the 5 seconds duration of Rite of the Great Dwarf can have a massive impact.

    Energy Meld in comparison is a joke, and yes my gameplay lacks optimization due I ditch it, but since I find EM to be mediocre and was already revamped once I don't want to rely in garbage skills that could change again in any moment. To me is like Shiro or Kalla or the staff or the Devastation traitline: abandoned content I no longer have to care about.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

The problem with EM is that it costed Energy, not because it was an extra button. That was always the issue, especially coming out of Renegade from PoF that had 3 buttons that costed Energy, only 1 being more widely used because of Alac upkeep. There were also discussions back then about how people hated pressing Orders from Above with sides arguing for and against having Alac being "just a button to press" 

I think EM stinks because it feels shoehorned in, and now it holds 3 traits hostage as they only interact with EM. That's fundamentally bad. Revenant suffers from many "redundancy" traits as I like to call them, something that's born from the Devs' allergic reaction to bloat and their favourite term "purity of purpose"

As a result, Revenant actually has very few "option traits" in the form of gameplay changing features because all they do is swap out properties of existing mechanics/skills. It makes the class alot shallower but also alot weaker whenever the skill or mechanic that the trait supports get slapped because there are no options anymore to diversify the playstyle.

The problem was certainly not the energy cost or the fact it was an extra button, but that it was originally a button that wasn't all that helpful to press and just not fun. The three traits solution, whether you agree with that or not, diversified what EM brings to the table and actually makes the button worth pressing, despite the energy cost. That's fundamentally the sign of a good balance change. Others are welcome to disagree, but I don't hate EM anymore the way I did when it released and actively not using it is just gimping yourself for no reason

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

17 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   With AE you get the free energy with any legend and in Shiro you get two unblockable attacks to deliver in the next 5 seconds and in jalis 3 seconds of 50% physical damage reduction. In PvP/WvW gaining unblockable just before releasing Death Strike in Shiro or adding 3 extra seconds to the 5 seconds duration of Rite of the Great Dwarf can have a massive impact.

    Energy Meld in comparison is a joke, and yes my gameplay lacks optimization due I ditch it, but since I find EM to be mediocre and was already revamped once I don't want to rely in garbage skills that could change again in any moment. To me is like Shiro or Kalla or the staff or the Devastation traitline: abandoned content I no longer have to care about.

EM with the middle trait gives 25 energy and 25 endurance (effectively an Ancient Echo bonus specifically tailored for Vindicator). This is literally near-equivalent to AE. It's just weird to be praising one skill (AE) while trashing another (EM) that is literally near-identical and has an equivalent amount of use cases simply because you were disillusioned by the original design...

Edited October 2 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Jobber.6348]

14 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The problem was certainly not the energy cost or the fact it was an extra button, but that it was originally a button that wasn't all that helpful to press and just not fun. The three traits solution, whether you agree with that or not, diversified what EM brings to the table and actually makes the button worth pressing, despite the energy cost. That's fundamentally the sign of a good balance change. Others are welcome to disagree, but I don't hate EM anymore the way I did when it released and actively not using it is just gimping yourself for no reason

They nerfed EM's energy gain in competitive but people still pick it because the other two are simply not good.

While Reaver's Curse sees more use in PvE, Song is just not used period. Vindicators instead gain more Vigor out of Evasion relic in all game modes than out of Song. The most important part of Angsyian is arguably the fact it removed the Energy cost as opposed to gaining Energy. That's just how powerful having an X effect with no Energy cost is, especially for Revenant who lives and dies by Energy management.

At a fundamental level EM grants Endurance back, but being able to gain Endurance at a button press without spending Energy is straight up better in any game modes that isn't PvE where Curse sees much better value. 

Now I don't really wanna discuss AE vs EM because they are fundamentally different as to how they desire to be used as well as the tradeoff you have to be mindful of to even have it but you can't say that Ancient Echo made Core Rev any better than they already were. All it realistically did was give Core Rev an additional button with no Energy Cost. I'd say it didn't really help Core Rev stand on its own two feet at all, especially when comparing to its own Especs, never mind other core classes. 

The only other class that has a very basic Core is Warrior, which essentially has 2 extra weapon skills but even then they have very good Core traitlines and weapons to back up those 2 extra buttons with more versatility due to their inherently good weapon resume. Then you look at Revenant and you realise Revenant's weapon resume is very pathetic as well, which indirectly affects how all specs and Core will perform. Long been begging Anet to make Core's unique Mechanic more interesting to use but they literally just gave Core a +1 button and called it a day. And they can't even be bothered to give Mallyx and Ventari unique effects, their AEs just give boons. And a very short duration too. 

Edited October 2 by Jobber.6348

[Buran.3796]

21 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

EM with the middle trait gives 25 energy and 25 endurance (effectively an Ancient Echo bonus specifically tailored for Vindicator). 

    Naaah... We had that endurance and vigor procs in the Vindicator traits and removed them to shoehorn the function in the press of a F2 button nobody was using, so now that you have to use it to gain what we already had "makes F2 worthy". It's not the case: both endurance and vigor access has been shaved from the Vindicator traitline to the point that currently my main source of endurance is exogenous and class agnostic (energy sigils).

   I understand that after the rollercoaster which was balancing the number of evades the endurance and vigor access needed a nerf, but the "ok, now you have the same just use this button" doesn't work to me. I press F2 in a Willbender when I want to cleanse my conditions and move away/chase a foe, or F2 in a Spellbreaker to block attacks and remove boons or in a Berserker to gain quickness and superspeed, and all of them have fancy effects and using them becomes addictive, whereas EM is just meh...

   Edit: also, the gain of energy iwith EM + Angsyina's Trust n PvP is 10 . The same crap as Charged Mist, do you known how many YEARS have pass since the last time I saw a player in the MATs using Charged Mist? No one used it since the nerf.  I don't need EM in PvE and in PvP is just putrid.

Edited October 2 by Buran.3796

[Jobber.6348]

33 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

    Naaah... We had that endurance and vigor procs in the Vindicator traits and removed them to shoehorn the function in the press of a F2 button nobody was using, so now that you have to use it to gain what we already had "makes F2 worthy". It's not the case: both endurance and vigor access has been shaved from the Vindicator traitline to the point that currently my main source of endurance is exogenous and class agnostic (energy sigils).

   I understand that after the rollercoaster which was balancing the number of evades the endurance and vigor access needed a nerf, but the "ok, now you have the same just use this button" doesn't work to me. I press F2 in a Willbender when I want to cleanse my conditions and move away/chase a foe, or F2 in a Spellbreaker to block attacks and remove boons or in a Berserker to gain quickness and superspeed, and all of them have fancy effects and using them becomes addictive, whereas EM is just meh...

   Edit: also, the gain of energy iwith EM + Angsyina's Trust n PvP is 10 . The same crap as Charged Mist, do you known how many YEARS have pass since the last time I saw a player in the MATs using Charged Mist? No one used it since the nerf.  I don't need EM in PvE and in PvP is just putrid.

It's already gone off topic for awhile so I'll just put my last input on EM here: 
 

EM did not need to be. What needed to happen was instead Alliance Tactics be F2 and Alliance Tactics having a different effect when interacting with non Alliance Legends. You can still make F2 do all the funky it does now with Traits but the fact remains that EM is just an extra button, an extra Button that instead of being made easier to press was made so that you have to press it or you miss out on an entire middle trait amongst other effects.

There is a clear difference in design philosophy between "press me when you need me" and "press me because you don't want to waste me" and it's not great.

[Kulvar.1239]

14 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

I guess I actually could have deduced that from your post, lol.

Also, I don't think I've ever had my bottom traitline be a non-elite spec since I had access to herald, so evidently core Rev is outside of my field

To be fair, Ancient Echo was added during Icebrood Saga. For years, base Revenant had no F2. So most players do not know about Ancient Echo.