Danikat.8537 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 12 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: the OP has a point gatcha games are not allowed to release new units/characters and then after you spend money on them, they nerf them into oblivion, that calls for mass refunds which is what happens in gatcha games when they do this. For some reason it doesn't seem to apply to mmo's (in gw2's case the new spear), and the community doesn't seem to care? Though I cant say why they don't care, to me, it seems like the same argument. If someone wants to enlighten me as to why its different in an mmo from a gatcha game i'd love to hear it. Ok I'll bite. In a gatcha game you would have paid seperately for that unit, meaning if they change it they've changed your entire purchase. When you buy an entire expansion for an MMO you get a whole set of things together, and individual skills, even weapons are a relatively small part of that so when they get changed it's not a big impact on your overall purchase. I'm not a lawyer and it might vary by location but it might also be an important factor that the expansion wasn't advertised on the specifics of individual skills. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Roy.2514 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 22 hours ago, Smol.7985 said: Yeah like i said you should be able to refund the expansion at any point in time but this will require game companies to be honest about their MVP products which will most likely not going to happen so you're kinda stuck and i didn't even buy the expansion ( just to add that i'm playing TWW right now not planning on buying JW at all but that's a whole different topic as to why etc ) . I actually learned from SotO 😂 To be clear i'm with you , you should be able to refund right now if you want to . In what way has Anet been dishonest about what this expansion includes? JW released EXACTLY as it was advertised, none of the features that were listed as part of the expansion are missing and the roadmap for all 3 of the follow up releases already exists. Balance changes and patches are not valid reasons for a refund unless they legitimately *remove* a piece of functionality from the game. This is common knowledge for pretty much any online video game that exists and is publicly available to view in the terms & conditions that you sign when you buy the game. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Roy.2514 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 13 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: the OP has a point gatcha games are not allowed to release new units/characters and then after you spend money on them, they nerf them into oblivion, that calls for mass refunds which is what happens in gatcha games when they do this. For some reason it doesn't seem to apply to mmo's (in gw2's case the new spear), and the community doesn't seem to care? Though I cant say why they don't care, to me, it seems like the same argument. If someone wants to enlighten me as to why its different in an mmo from a gatcha game i'd love to hear it. Well for one, I can't find anything to support this idea that gacha games are "not allowed" to nerf individual purchase characters after they are released, those games just tend to have VERY different legal verbage in their T&C that allow them to do things like that. Because they know their audience, and their audience more or less knows exactly what kind of gambling game they're playing. As to why it's different in MMO's (or GW2 specifically), it's kinda for the same reason: legal documentation. Balance changes are a natural part of MMO's that the game literally could not exist without, and they are therefore not beholden to refund policies in the T&C. Land spears in Janthir Wilds were not advertised to be "weapons stronger than any others that will never undergo any change," and therefore they can't be considered anything like "false advertising" which is more or less what OP would be requesting the refund for. Spears were promised to *exist,* no more and no less. The T&C that every player signs says you don't get to refund a product just because you don't like that one thing slightly changed about it, OP still legally got what he paid for. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 10 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said: For that example to be relevant though, they would have had to have specifically advertised the expansion on the premise "Get warrior spear and dominate your foes in PvP!". Spears in general are a selling point, and OP got what they paid for. To expect anything to remain totally unchanged in a MMORPG, much less something that's dominating a competitive mode, is lunacy, and OP should've 100% known better. If they bought an entire expansion solely on an overpowered weapon for a single profession, that was a poor financial decision on their part. and yet what your describing CANNOT be done in gatcha games, please explain why its different in MMOs 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 58 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said: Ok I'll bite. In a gatcha game you would have paid seperately for that unit, meaning if they change it they've changed your entire purchase. When you buy an entire expansion for an MMO you get a whole set of things together, and individual skills, even weapons are a relatively small part of that so when they get changed it's not a big impact on your overall purchase. I'm not a lawyer and it might vary by location but it might also be an important factor that the expansion wasn't advertised on the specifics of individual skills. thats not a straight argument you could easily argue that bonuses you get from events for said gatcha unit, as well as extra pulls or bonues tickets for pulling the featured unit are also part of the appeal of the purchase, as is other features of the expansion besides the spear for gw2. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Darklord Roy.2514 said: Well for one, I can't find anything to support this idea that gacha games are "not allowed" to nerf individual purchase characters after they are released, those games just tend to have VERY different legal verbage in their T&C that allow them to do things like that. Because they know their audience, and their audience more or less knows exactly what kind of gambling game they're playing. As to why it's different in MMO's (or GW2 specifically), it's kinda for the same reason: legal documentation. Balance changes are a natural part of MMO's that the game literally could not exist without, and they are therefore not beholden to refund policies in the T&C. Land spears in Janthir Wilds were not advertised to be "weapons stronger than any others that will never undergo any change," and therefore they can't be considered anything like "false advertising" which is more or less what OP would be requesting the refund for. Spears were promised to *exist,* no more and no less. The T&C that every player signs says you don't get to refund a product just because you don't like that one thing slightly changed about it, OP still legally got what he paid for. yah but whats stopping them from say, releasing an item as part of the expansion that makes enemies drop 10,000% the normal amount of gold and everyone buys it (the benefit is sort of similar to the increase in damage that spear brings for some classes). Everyones happy and then after a month they "balance" it and now it only makes mobs drop 1% more gold per kill. Is that ok? How much time is allowed to pass before people "think" its ok? if its not ok, why is it not ok? I know gatcha games cannot do this with characters/units that people pay for, even a month later, instead they usually have to leave it as is or increase the power of all other units. The information I have found on gatcha games not being allowed to do this is, is that if they do, do this they get massive backlash from the community, which doesnt seem to be present on mmo's, which I dont understand (which gives credence to the OP point). Secondly, there have been multiple instances of this where legal action was threatened by players. A lot of the legal action depends on what country the consumer is from, in japan they have laws and agencies set up to combat this, the US is a little more lenient with things like this, but in order to appeal to an international playerbase, gatcha games avoid this behavior to avert negative situations. Edited September 11 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: and yet what your describing CANNOT be done in gatcha games, please explain why its different in MMOs 11 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: thats not a straight argument you could easily argue that bonuses you get from events for said gatcha unit, as well as extra pulls or bonues tickets for pulling the featured unit are also part of the appeal of the purchase, as is other features of the expansion besides the spear for gw2. Speaking of "not being a straight argument", why is your only argument here reverting to "BUT YOU CANT DO IT IN GACHA GAMES"? Putting whether you actually can or not aside... Is this a gacha game? No? Then how is anything you're coming up with here supposed to be valid? Go argue on any other multiplayer game that balance pathes can't happen or "it means they removed content and they can't do it!" and let us know what happens. My guess is you'll be straight up laughed out of the room. Edited September 11 by Sobx.1758 7 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: Speaking of "not being a straight argument", why is your only argument here reverting to "BUT YOU CANT DO IT IN GACHA GAMES"? Putting whether you actually can or not aside... Is this a gacha game? No? Then how is anything you're coming up with here supposed to be valid? Go argue on any other multiplayer game that balance pathes can't happen or "it means they removed content and they can't do it!" and let everyone know what happens. both mmo's and gatcha games are online video games. So you would think there is no difference. I'm asking what the difference is. I don't see one. I'm aware of balance patches lol. I'm asking at what point is it not ok? Becuase there is apparently a clear line that companies cannot take and a grey area that were in where everyone is fine with it and calls it balance. 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 A consumer pursuing a refund because the product either does not meet his expectations , or is changed after purchase to no longer meet his desires, is perfectly reasonable. ANet has the right to change their product and customer have the right to forgo that changed product. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: both mmo's and gatcha games are online video games. So you would think there is no difference. Both cars and wheelbarrels have wheels and yet they're not the same. Stop with the nonsense, "two games being online" doesn't make them the same. And you know that which is exactly why you dodged the question about whether or not this is a gacha game. You know whatever you're dishonestly trying to argue here does not apply. And so does everyone else. 3 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: I'm asking what the difference is. I don't see one. If you can't see the difference between "gacha game" and "any other online game" then start from not using words you don't understand. Then google the definitions and come back to discuss. Edited September 11 by Sobx.1758 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) gw2 is not a gatcha game, but it is a videogame with online purhcases the same as a gatcha game. So what is the difference? I mean are you saying that if one game is a real time strategy and sells items online and one is a first person shooter and sells items online, that they have different laws regulating it? I dont think so, they're both online games. maybe it just comes down to community reaction, and if everyone is fine with it and they deem it to be "balance" then thats the imaginary line the community has set for it being ok and its what the company can get away with. That imaginary line that the community has drawn does not invalidate the OP point however, as the OP clearly has his own line drawn for what is ok and it is a lot less lenient then the community, he still has a point and a right to be outraged by it. So its just down to how the community reacts and how much of a fuss "legally" the community wants to take, and if its none then there it is. due to the similarity of how international laws regulate gatcha games I do think this is a problem and a grey area however. I mean how many people bought the expansion with one of the reasons being that Spear was overpowered for a class they wanted to play? Well now its not. Edited September 11 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 Just now, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: gw2 is not a gatcha game, but it is a videogame with online purhcases the same as a gatcha game. So what is the difference? I mean are you saying that if one game is a real time strategy and sells items online and one is a first person shooter and sells items online, that they have different laws regulating it? I dont think so, they're both online games. You're the one talking about laws here, so quote the laws you're talking about. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said: You're the one talking about laws here, so quote the laws you're talking about. US FTC, and in japan the CAA regulate these things - look up false advertising laws, thats the legal ground that theoretically would be threatened with this sort of problem. Edited September 11 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) Just now, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: US FTC, and in japan the CAA regulate these things - look up false advertising laws. Quote the exact laws you're talking about, I'm not going on a search just to find an argument for you lmao And as far as I'm aware, we're not in japan btw. Edited September 11 by Sobx.1758 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said: Quote the exact laws you're talking about, I'm not going on a search just to find an argument for you lmao im not going to give you an education on false advertising either. I pointed you in the right direction, go educate yourself. what do you want me to do link 1000's of pages of what constitutes that? Edited September 11 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 1 minute ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: im not going to give you an education on false advertising either. I pointed you in the right direction, go educate yourself. So you have no point then. In your last posts you started questioning "whether or not the laws are the same" and say "you thiiink" they should be, which simply shows you're just shooting blanks around. Your inability to quote what you think you're talking about only proves it further 🤷♂️ Edited September 11 by Sobx.1758 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: So you have no point then. You just started questioning "whether or not the laws are the same" and say "you thiiink" they should be, which simply showss you're just shooting blanks around. 🤷♂️ more like you dont have a point since you countered with nothing and I said it is a law, and you asked for it and i showed you what its under. You however have 0 argument and have shown me nothing to suggest that its ok. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 1 minute ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: more like you dont have a point since you countered with nothing and I said it is a law, and you asked for it and i showed you what its under. You however have 0 argument and have shown me nothing to suggest that its ok. So it's not against any law. If you think it is, quote it, thanks. Until then, it's obvious you're just blindly guessing and hoping someone might make a point for you. I don't need to "counter" with anything when you're unable to quote the law you're apparently trying to use here. There's literally nothing to counter for now. Edited September 11 by Sobx.1758 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: So it's not against any law. If you think it is, quote it, thanks. no why not educate yourself. its all right there. just google it. You could become a legal scholar just think. 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 Just now, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: no why not educate yourself. its all right there. just google it. You could become a legal scholar just think. I don't need to "counter" with anything when you're unable to quote the law you're apparently trying to use here. There's literally nothing to counter for now. As for that weak "legal scholar" line.. you're the one throwing "law" around without quoting anything particular 🤦♂️ Definitely let me know when you'll stumble on an actual arugment based on anything specific. Good luck! 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: I don't need to "counter" with anything when you're unable to quote the law you're apparently trying to use here. There's literally nothing to counter for now. As for that weak "legal scholar" line.. you're the one throwing "law" around without quoting anything particular 🤦♂️ Definitely let me know when you'll stumble on an actual arugment based on anything specific. Good luck! i already said its a legal grey area, and it some countries you cant do this, others you can. It depends on the consumer laws of said country in Japan you cant and depending on how those laws are interpreted (in japan they are very strict) they would be more likely to bring forward a case. The US is more loose with their laws so less likely. The point is not really whether what their doing is legal, all that does is whether you as a consumer could bring a case forward and nobody here is saying that they want to, incudling myself, the OP asked for a refund thats all. Thats my point its what the community is willing to accept and how outraged they are. So why is the community so much more lenient with mmo's then it is with gatcha games when the company expresses the same "balance" behavior? Since mmo's and gatcha games are both online videogames that sell products online? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: i already said its a legal grey area I doubt it's even in any "grey area". Once again, we're not in Japan, whatever "but in japan maybe" you try bringing up is irrelevant to anything discussed here. 9 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: The point is not really whether what their doing is legal, all that does is whether you as a consumer could bring a case forward and nobody here is saying that they want to, incudling myself, the OP asked for a refund thats all. Thats my point its what the community is willing to accept and how outraged they are. So when you sent me on that 1000s page search and informed me I "could become a legal scholar just think", you were just saying stuff while knowing you're incorrect. 9 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: Thats my point its what the community is willing to accept and how outraged they are. So why is the community so much more lenient with mmo's then it is with gatcha games when the company expresses the same "balance" behavior? Since mmo's and gatcha games are both online videogames that sell products online? Balance patches are normal, not only here but in any other online game. If there would be something to be outraged about, the community might become outraged. In this case overperforming weapons are getting rebalanced here and there, while you're jumping in and basically asking when the community will rebel (against balance patches) and why it still didn't. As for your claims about "other communities [of gacha games] not being lenient about the sme balance behavior", I'll have to request sources again. So I don't need to keep guessing what you're even talking about? Edited September 11 by Sobx.1758 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: So it's not against the law, so you have no point. Right. Also I doubt it's even in any "grey area". One again, we're not in Japan, whatever "but in japan maybe" you try bringing up is irrelevant to anything discussed here. So when you sent me on that 1000s page search and informed me I "could become a legal scholar just think", you were just saying stuff while knowing you're incorrect. Balance patches are normal, not only here but in any other online game. If there would be something to be outraged about, the community might become outraged. In this case overperforming weapons are getting rebalanced here and there, while you're jumping in and basically asking when the community will rebel (against balance patches) and why it still didn't. As for your claims about "other communities [of gacha games] not being lenient about the sme balance behavior", I'll have to request sources again. So I don't need to keep guessing what you're even talking about? you dont seem to understand how law works lol. I like how you troll to the point where its like you're 5 and you need everything down to sentence structure and grammer cited and sourced to you otherwise the entire argument is invalid lol. You asked what laws it might fall under i said false advertising, you asked what agencies would look into it, i listed 2. You said balancing was fine, I listed an example where in gatcha games its considered a huge no no by their communities pretty much universally in all gatcha games and in certain instances legal action was pursued (you obviously don't play gatcha games and you obviously don't know how to google simple stories on gatcha games). If you cant see the similarities between gatcha games and an mmo, then i feel sorry for you and you have no point. You should strart with basic games like super mario brothers and work your way up from there. 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: you dont seem to understand how law works lol. I like how you troll to the point where its like you're 5 That's great, then explain it to me and, possibly, everone else since you're apparnetly a law specialist while at the same time you're unable to quote any laws you're apparently trying to discuss. Just make it clear for everyone finally or stop pretending. 16 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: and you need everything down to sentence structure and grammer cited and sourced to you otherwise the entire argument is invalid lol No, at no point I said anything about grammar or sentence structure. It's a ridiculous strawman you've came up with now, after you made it clear you were just shooting blanks. If you had an argument then maybe you should write it in the way so people don't need to guess what it is. If you don't... Then stop making things up now, because it doesn't really put you in any better light. 16 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: You asked what laws it might fall under i said false advertising, you asked what agencies would look into it, i listed 2. Show me anything that doesn't allow the game companies to implement balance patches on the existing content. You can't? Of course you can't. So nothing here falls under your convenient broad and deep blanket of "false advertisement" since you're not buying specifc stats/skills with promise it will never change. At no point I asked anything about "what agencies would look into it"(??), stop making things up again. 16 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: You said balancing was fine, I listed an example where in gatcha games its considered a huge no no by their communities pretty much universally in all gatcha games and in certain instances legal action was pursued (you obviously don't play gatcha games and you obviously don't know how to google simple stories on gatcha games). You didn't list anything like that to me. But definitely do it now, if only because I literally requested that in my last post. 21 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: As for your claims about "other communities [of gacha games] not being lenient about the sme balance behavior", I'll have to request sources again. So I don't need to keep guessing what you're even talking about? 16 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: If you cant see the similarities between gatcha games and an mmo What similarities exactly do you have in mind? You really should start making specific and coherent points instead of throwing blanket statments around and count people will create argument for you. That's not going to happen, so if you have some meaningful "similarities" in mind here, YOU should point them out. I'm not a mind reader and I'm not interested in searching for your point for you. This is not how discussions work. Notice how I need to keep asking what you have in mind throughout the posts because you just keep writing general nothingness. Then you say I should go read 1000s of pages of whatever laws (to basically find it for you) and finally say you didn't really mean anything specific 🤦♂️ Lets make this clear: you're not going to send me on any weird quest here, if you have a point, make sure it's specific and coherent. I'm not going to look for it for you and I'm not going to try to comment on something you can't even spell out. Edited September 11 by Sobx.1758 4 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: That's great, then explain it to me and, possibly, everone else since you're apparnetly a law specialist while at the same time you're unable to quote any laws you're apparently trying to discuss. Just make it clear for everyone finally or stop pretending. No, at no point I said anything about grammar or sentence structure. It's a ridiculous strawman you've came up with now, after you made it clear you were just shooting blanks. If you had an argument then maybe you should write it in the way so people don't need to guess what it is. If you don't... Then stop making things up now, because it doesn't really put you in any better light. Show me anything that doesn't allow the game companies to implement balance patches on the existing content. You can't? Of course you can't. So nothing here falls under your convenient broad and deep blanket of "false advertisement" since you're not buying specifc stats/skills with promise it will never change. At no point I asked anything about "what agencies would look into it"(??), stop making things up again. You didn't list anything like that to me. But definitely do it now, if only because I literally requested that in my last post. What similarities exactly do you have in mind? You really should start making specific and coherent points instead of throwing blanket statments around and count people will create argument for you. That's not going to happen, so if you have some meaningful "similarities" in mind here, YOU should point them out. I'm not a mind reader and I'm not interested in searching for your point for you. This is not how discussions work. You want me to quote a law - false advertising, it falls under the umbrella, i'm not going to make a case out of that law as a lawyer for you to prove my point lol. You clealy dont understand how law or cases work. i was imitating how you behave on the forums, your overall psychology suggests trolling as you nitpick at minute irrelevant details while ignoring the entire argument, because you have no argument. Companies can do whatever they want, and they do, they balance games willy nilly whenver they want. Now the question of does the community accept it or is ok with it, thats a different issue. In gatcha games they universally DONT accept it, but in mmo's they seem to be ok with it, thats the point of my argument why are mmo communities ok with it. As for legal action thats a seperate topic as well. You have to prove your case using case law, even if it is a violation of a law you have to prove it in court, you might not be able too. They might be violating some of the laws, or all of the laws, again you have to prove it. Nobody here wants to do any of that, nobody here is suggesting that anyone should do that, nobody here is suggesting that what theyre doing fall under those scenarios. All i said is that gatcha games that have done similar "balances" in the past have had legal action pursued in certain countries, namely countries where laws are more strict with this kind of thing. I only pointed this out to show how much gatcha communities are NOT OK with "balances" similar to what gw2 pulled with the spear 1 month out from the launch of their new expansion. I'm not linking stories from google about other gatcha games legal troubles on here. You can look it up very easily, and just because I'm not posting links here doesnt make my point invalid or made up lol. Anyone with a brain can type it into google. ALso google how gatcha players feel about nerfs after a unit is released or balancing of units, you'll see posts going back to 2014, and they're all negative filled with vitriol similarities between gatcha games and mmo's. 1) they're both videogames, 2) they're both online 3) they both sell digital goods online, 4) they're regulated by the same government agencies, 5) they're bound to the same online regulatory laws thats a lot of similarities. Now if i was talking about a vacuum cleaner you might have a point. Edited September 11 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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