CELE IS GETTING NERFED

[Dagger.2035]

Celestial was a good stat set prior to the addition of concentration and expertise and I'm confident it will see a ton of use after the change.  The developers have boons on the brain and until they change their ways it will continue to be strong.  People defending it must admit that all of the top roaming builds were Celestial and it has had a presence in the large-scale meta which expanded recently.  I don't know how much more evidence you need.  Going forward you will just have to make tougher choices with your traits and gear.

I did defend Celestial 3-4 years ago, but after trying out some of the builds myself I can no longer defend it.  My main issue is that it has a ton of sustain and can output damage comparable to solo-roaming power builds.  I'm talking about roaming builds which primarily use Maurader's and Dragon's.  When Celestial builds have a single target 5k DPS floor and can burst quite higher and exceed 10k DPS, where's the trade-off?  The sustain from the stats and defensive traits is way too high with that kind of damage potential.

[TheGrimm.5624]

19 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I’m impartial to this change, but this here in the quote block is really the dangerous part about all this. I’ve talked about topics like this for years (read through all 60 pages of my comments for proof) since 2019.

It started with 1 amulet it then snowballed to all healing amulets in Spvp are gone. Before you know it everyone is playing the stick (stick wars 2)

Stick wars 2 was the colloquial funny term I came up with back then, to describe the game at the singularity point of these philosophies: that if one systemically nerfs or removes everything from the game, one is also approaching a game where all skills do the same exact thing, 0 damage, or everything is gone. The point of the joke was to show that the balance philosophy (nerf everything philosophy) was fundamentally flawed because it doesn’t lead to a logical end conclusion. 

Anyway, let Spvp serve as an example for what game people want to play when such philosophies are in place. 

 

This is the danger here. We don't need a sPvP round 2 to be applied to WvW. Eliminating build diversity in end game content is a really bad idea. 

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Nah I only cared about cele getting removed. I have no issues with other stats.

Yeah i know. I just asked to showcase your bias 🙂

[Dagger.2035]

I also forgot to add that the stat split between PvE and WvW doesn't make any sense.  They didn't have to waste developer time implementing this solution.  Celestial is even stronger in PvE since boon are handed out like candy in that game mode.  You don't even have to invest in concentration to get 25 might instantly.  They should have just adjusted the stat to undo their changes to it.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It started with 1 amulet it then snowballed to all healing amulets in Spvp are gone. Before you know it everyone is playing the stick (stick wars 2)

All they did was revert a buff to cele stats (the addition of concentration and expertise). Not sure how this translates to spvp amulets.

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

All they did was revert a buff to cele stats (the addition of concentration and expertise). Not sure how this translates to spvp amulets.

General

The first use of this will be to remove both concentration and expertise from equipment with Celestial attributes in WvW only, to bring it back in line with other attributes. We'll be keeping an eye on how the tech performs and whether it needs any final touches, but, assuming everything goes well, it's something that we may use going forward to tune other attribute combinations in WvW specifically.

[Gorani.7205]

Typical ANet "Smiter's Boon fix". No subtlety, just delete.
Why not cut the Concentration and Expertise in half and see how it goes?
Boon vomiting skills, traits and professions not addressed at all to consider it a dent in the boon ball fights everyone hates. Willbenders pretty much unchanged when it comes to roaming.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

That sounds quite silly. If you don’t have any damage whatsoever, why do you need to stat it up?

no condi? Why do we use balthazar runes then? Maybe you have to swap some traits.

also you get boon duration on minstrel and be beefy if you want, or you swap some runes. I don’t know how good or bad it will be but it won’t be as apocalyptic as you say it will. But sure, reroll harb if you want. Nobody forces you into anything.

Balthazar runes?  I'm using either Infiltration or durability, precisely because it is too hard to keep burning damage up.  The main advantage with condition duration is the disabling conditions.  Cripple, Chill, Weakness, and Vulnerability.  People usually wait to cleanse those because they aren't burning, and because the individual durations for each of those conditions is shorter, but it makes a world of difference in a fight in the long run.  

Minstrel has no offensive stats.  Literally.  I'm already getting locked into forever fights while wearing celestial.  How am I supposed to kill somebody while roaming in Minstrel?

The fact of the matter is that Elementalist in WvW has been historically nerfed around the presumption of celestial gear.  If Anet decided to buff up Frost Aura, Fire Aura, almost the entire Arcane line, the WvW version of Elemental Refreshment, Lightning Rod, Staunch Auras, etc. and so on as compensation for the innate loss of 42% boon and condition duration I could understand, but they haven't.  Instead, we're getting a few paltry increases to some random skills that are mostly meaningless because of attunement cooldowns, and my preferred spec Weaver is getting nerfed in both PVE and WvW for no reason.  It isn't like Celestial Ele has been the cream of the crop out there.  I haven't seen another roaming ele in WvW for weeks.

But hey, at least Tempest is getting some useful WvW buffs.  That way, I'll have stability while I get pounded into the dirt channeling overloads because their damage doesn't warrant the 5 second daze associated with it.  

[SlateSloan.3654]

0.o CELE NERFED?!?!?!!11 HEEEEEEEELP!!!111!

[CafPow.1542]

6 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Balthazar runes?

Yes.

other options are viable but i play with balthazar runes.

7 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Minstrel has no offensive stats.  Literally.  I'm already getting locked into forever fights while wearing celestial.  How am I supposed to kill somebody while roaming in Minstrel?

It’s about getting concentration back on the equip. Pick your poison, there are statcombos that have it on. You don’t have to wear full cele is what i‘m saying.

9 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

haven't seen another roaming ele in WvW for weeks.

I do. And quite a few of them are full power glascannons, imagine that. Your whole paragraph now gies about ele and class balancing. But celestial concerns all the vlasses wether you like it or not. This change was not about eles. Although i agree that the boonspam should be adressed via classes, not gearstats.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

19 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

It’s about getting concentration back on the equip. Pick your poison, there are statcombos that have it on. You don’t have to wear full cele is what i‘m saying.

You are deliberately recommending stat combinations for roaming that do not work while roaming, and you know it.  

19 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

I do. And quite a few of them are full power glascannons, imagine that. Your whole paragraph now gies about ele and class balancing. But celestial concerns all the vlasses wether you like it or not. This change was not about eles. Although i agree that the boonspam should be adressed via classes, not gearstats.

 

You already know what I've said on the matter.  Stop pretending you don't.  

[CafPow.1542]

14 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You are deliberately recommending stat combinations for roaming that do not work while roaming, and you know it.

Why should trailblazer for example not work? It would help with the lack of expertise.

if you say on the other hand, „expertise doesn’t matter cause muh condi damage is bad“, then the nerf is irrelevant for you.

i try to get you sone ideas to „undo“ the nerf a little bit. Take it or leave it. 🙂

16 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You already know what I've said on the matter.  Stop pretending you don't.  

You: „i see no eles!“ 

me: „well i do“

 

why exactly is your point an argument and mine is not? Stop pretending your personal opinion is more than exactly that.

 

we will lack concentration and expertise when using celestial. I tell you how you can switch a few gear pieces to get it back. Then you tell me that this is not useful cause we don’t use these stats well, while at the same time we will miss those stats darely due to the nerf.

stop it with schrödingers argument and make up your mind. I was just trying to be helpful but stay on the doomsday-side and wuite i really don’t care.

[Exzen.2976]

Thank the lord. This has been so obviously needed for so long. No single stat has ever  been more oppressive than cele has over the last few years. For those claiming this will ruin build diversity - this actually means that there might actually be reasons to run some of the lesser used stat combos (cele is simply better than most currently), so if anything this increases diversity. 

[CafPow.1542]

Just now, Exzen.2976 said:

For those claiming this will ruin build diversity - this actually means that there might actually be reasons to run some of the lesser used stat combos

Yeah! Let’s go all marauder now wohoo!

lol

lmao infact.

[Exzen.2976]

6 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Yeah! Let’s go all marauder now wohoo!

lol

lmao infact.

Ha, dragon and zerker also see plenty of use. And there might be reason to throw some cavalier, knight, commander, crusader, wanderer in now - at the moment if you want to throw some toughness on a power build, cele is better, since it will still also give you power, precision, ferocity and vitality - not to mention the nice addition on concentration etc. Dire/trailblazer builds will probably make a comeback too, with people choosing to throw in other stats like ritualist, sinister, viper etc etc. Cele being reverted to how it was allows space for other stat combos to have a reason to be used. Cele will still be usable, as it was before.

Edited September 14 by Exzen.2976

[Nihzu.6352]

Celestial is the only stat combo readily available to core accounts that gives expertise/concentration, especially now that Mists-charged jade trinkets have been reworked.

As some mentioned, maybe rework exp/conc instead? Like diminishing returns, stack decay (25 stacks of might decay faster than 24, that decay faster than 23, etc.)

[Exzen.2976]

1 minute ago, Nihzu.6352 said:

Celestial is the only stat combo readily available to core accounts that gives expertise/concentration, especially now that Mists-charged jade trinkets have been reworked.

As some mentioned, maybe rework exp/conc instead? Like diminishing returns, stack decay (25 stacks of might decay faster than 24, that decay faster than 23, etc.)

It's far easier to simply revert the unnecessary cele buff. 

[Nihzu.6352]

2 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

It's far easier to simply revert the unnecessary cele buff. 

And shaft core as customary, rather than doing what's ostensibly their job.

[Exzen.2976]

Just now, Nihzu.6352 said:

And shaft core as customary, rather than doing what's ostensibly their job.

Honestly, core players haven't paid for the game and cant expect to be catered for in every possible way, I get that some people choose not to pay and thats fine - im not ripping into anyone for it. But Anet have to make money to continue running the game. Does it matter if there is some incentive to pay towards the game? 

[Nihzu.6352]

9 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Honestly, core players haven't paid for the game and cant expect to be catered for in every possible way, I get that some people choose not to pay and thats fine - im not ripping into anyone for it. But Anet have to make money to continue running the game. Does it matter if there is some incentive to pay towards the game? 

Free accounts and core accounts are two different things. The original base game was a full €60 release before HoT.

Also, there are carrot incentives and stick incentives, and that's yet another stick. At the very least, can people drop the facade that GW2 isn't P2W? They can make their money on PvE stuff, why impact PvP settings?

Back to Cele though, rather than the stat combo being OP, has anyone considered it only highlighted how poorly designed specializations are? Seems to me the motto was "Throw every boon at them, sprinkle a gimmick on top, call it a day".

[Exzen.2976]

4 minutes ago, Nihzu.6352 said:

Free accounts and core accounts are two different things. The original base game was a full €60 release before HoT.

Also, there are carrot incentives and stick incentives, and that's yet another stick. At the very least, can people drop the facade that GW2 isn't P2W? They can make their money on PvE stuff, why impact PvP settings?

Back to Cele though, rather than the stat combo being OP, has anyone considered it only highlighted how poorly designed specializations are? Seems to me the motto was "Throw every boon at them, sprinkle a gimmick on top, call it a day".

Gotcha, my bad. I'm definitely not arguing that the e-specs have been well designed (I agree with you) and I'm not saying cele is the only issue in wvw. However it is one of the biggest issues I've had as a roamer and I am very pleased something is being done about it. 

[RazieL.5684]

jesus cele is getting nerfed and people are still crying about cele 😄 yeah we are gonna see huge diversity of builds now like power thieves power willbenders power rangers and power mesmers... maybe power reapers too? idk man sounds like marauder/dragons/zerker gear is too oppressive and needs some stats shaved off...

[Hotride.2187]

14 minutes ago, Nihzu.6352 said:

Back to Cele though, rather than the stat combo being OP, has anyone considered it only highlighted how poorly designed specializations are? Seems to me the motto was "Throw every boon at them, sprinkle a gimmick on top, call it a day".

Yes in fact thats another item I forgot on my list. Wasnt cele thats busted, its specific builds/specs/whatnot. Many mentions of this in the many cele threads. Just about every spec has a cele build at this point, more than decent in many cases, with at least 1 spec per profession having a busted good cele build.

So I do agree with logic of, you can probably do an exhaustive balance pass and nerf everything to be in line with current cele. Or you just nerf cele and save yourself a bunch of wasted time.

Edited September 14 by Hotride.2187

[Cameirus.8407]

sad days, catering to lame gankers who just want to jump people and burst them 100% in half a second with no skill required.

Maybe address the reason people play cele, to survive the no skill gankpacks. Tone down dps burst, tone down the ability to one shot and run if unsuccessful then maybe, full survival would not be required.

 

[Exzen.2976]

Just now, RazieL.5684 said:

jesus cele is getting nerfed and people are still crying about cele 😄 yeah we are gonna see huge diversity of builds now like power thieves power willbenders power rangers and power mesmers... maybe power reapers too? idk man sounds like marauder/dragons/zerker gear is too oppressive and needs some stats shaved off...

There will still be plenty of condi builds about, we might also still see cele builds, they're just likely to be less oppressive.