So I'm seeing a lot of Spear Warriors in ToL

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Im explaining this to you one last time and when you inevitably say dumb things like this again ill refer back to this:

-Imagine having an elite spec that is over performing so ungodly hard that its essentially not beatable conventionally if played semi-competently.

-Imagine that profession having weapons that are completely outdated and desperately need buffs/reworks. But that elite spec is still overperforming so hard it can make the weapons work in spite of this.

-Imagine the profession gets new weapons that actually are good and up to standard of what weapons should be. The weapons are a overtuned but nothing that cant be fixed.

-Now imagine this HEAVILY overperforming elite spec gets a hold of these new amazing weapons and ruins the fun for everyone even more.

-The people who play the profession state the obvious issue of the elite spec being super oppressive and to handle that before balancing the new amazing weapons so we can actually get a fair scope of what the new weapons actually are capable of when not being abused by the super overperforming elite spec.

-The forums where the balance devs look for genuine information have a total kitten-fit and demand the new weapons get gutted, not fixing the overperforming elite spec causing the issue to begin with.

-The people who play the profession zealously plead for people to understand that this is a massive issue caused by the elite spec overperforming on every level and to handle that first so we get a genuine grasp of what the weapon should be capable of when not being abused.

-Balance devs listen to the incorrect feedback of the forums and guts the damage/utility of the new weapons by as much as 40% and nukes the healing potential of the other one.

-Super oppressive elite spec keeps using weapons, now with a little less effectiveness and just goes back to using its previous loadouts which are similarly oppressive (Hammer/dagger+shield).

-Rest of the profession now gets access to use a weapon thats balanced based on the super oppressive elite spec and cant effectively use it anymore. 

-The people who told you this would happen and that the elite spec would still overperform are bitter because the root issue wasnt fixed and the new weapon wasnt balanced fairly.

-No other spears that are overperforming are getting nerfed or even touched.

-The Elite spec thats overperforming is getting used and abused by everyone and their mother for free LP and rewards, community still complains. The profession mains that know what the issue is and are actively getting ignored/scorned laugh at the community for not understanding the basic concept of "cause and effect".

> You are here in the timeline. <

-Super oppressive spec gets even more buffs and the community reach a fever pitch with their complaining about it again.

-3 months later after the elite spec truely abused to the point where you cant ignore it anymore as a developer, the overperforming elite spec gets hard nerfed.

-The overperforming elite spec gets nerfed and no compensation buffs for the "new" weapon are provided to make it more viable for the rest of the profession and more build stagnation comes into effect.

This is as basic of an explanation that can be given, ive even provided a preview of whats going to happen in the future for your ease of understanding.
@Lan Deathrider.5910, @Azure The Heartless.3261, @Captain Crapface.7528, @Zekent.3652 tell me if I missed something.

Going on a limb here, the odds are more likely that Spellbreaker will never be properly rebalanced than for it to be nerfed. But you are right, if they ever do it, they are very unlikely to revisit the nerfs they made because of Spellbreaker abusing things.

I think it is hilarious that there was such a war path for Spear nerfs, but now that they attention has turned to Willbender and guardian spear all of a sudden, we have to preserve the ability to do damage... Right...

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

35 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Going on a limb here, the odds are more likely that Spellbreaker will never be properly rebalanced than for it to be nerfed. But you are right, if they ever do it, they are very unlikely to revisit the nerfs they made because of Spellbreaker abusing things.

I think it is hilarious that there was such a war path for Spear nerfs, but now that they attention has turned to Willbender and guardian spear all of a sudden, we have to preserve the ability to do damage... Right...

Object permanence. 

Its not an issue unless it's right in front of you actively being an issue. 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

but keep that same energy when its your turn alright?

things I've been advocating to do on mesmer

• Nuke Signet of Illusions. Shouldn't refund entirely f3/f4 to prevent mesmers from chaining distortions
• Nuke Blurred Inscriptions. Signets shouldn't give distortion
• Remove the mirrors from Desert Distortion: Degenerate defensive spam, has no reason to exist.
• Rework chronomancer shatters so they have cast times. Instacast shatters during CS are mindless enough. The burst becomes uncounterable too when coupled with unchanneled distortion, and uncounterable things aren't good.
• Carpet nerf staff as a whole. Let's start by removing damaging conditions from clones, for a start, and see where it goes.
• Remove the cleanse on CC from Auspicious Anguish. You shouldn't be rewarded for eating a CC.
• Cut 20% of damage from all spear skills. On chaos\illusions spear4 can land some 12k nukes, it's absolutely overtuned.
• Straight up remove the heal on Imaginary Inversion. Using it with clarity might get a lower cd, but mesmer must have no access to resustain.
• Change the stun on Mental Collapse to a daze. Cuz no dmg on CC, that's the rules.
• Make the delayed pulses on Mental Collapse not stun people who dodged the first pulse. Same problem DT used to have, btw.
• Give a frame1 particle effect on Magic Bullet. 2s hard stun from 1200 range, needs a proper telegraph instead of being some generic, subtle "point a gun" gesture

And you know all of that because you were in every one of those threads. You can stop being a smug kitten for once.

Edited September 30 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

things I've been advocating to do on mesmer

• nuke signet of illusions so that it doesn't refund f3/f4 and thus prevent mesmers from chaining distortions
• nuke the signet trait (not either of the two: both)
• remove desert distortion on mirage
• rewkr chronomancer shatters so they have cast times (distortion in particular should become channeled)
• carpet nerf staff as a whole
• remove the cleanse on CC from auspicious anguish
• cut 20% of damage from all spear skills
• straight up remove the heal on spear3
• change the stun from spear5 to a daze
• give a frame1 particle effect on pistol5 so that it has an actual telegraph, instead of being some generic, subtle "point a gun" gesture

And you know all of that because you were in those threads. You can stop being a smug kitten for once.

First of all, I'm not being smug, my face is stuck that way 🤐

Second of all, this isn't about advocacy for correctly targeting nerfs, this is about what you're going to do when instead of -all that- ^ they hit you with the wacky clone/phantasm/distortion nerf that weakens fringe builds on top of the spear nerfs, as they are prone to do. 

I'm not here advocating for mesmer adjustment nor am I going to heckle you when they get mixed. I just expected you to understand how this goes since you've seen it a couple times already. 

Edited September 30 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

what you're going to do when instead of -all that- ^ they hit you with the wacky clone/phantasm/distortion nerf that weakens fringe builds on top of the spear nerfs, as they are prone to do

If they take the same route they took for spellbreaker, they'll end up removing 2 whirl finishers from focus5.

Don't act like spellbreaker in particular (or warrior in general) got this huge round of nerfs; it didn't.

Except bladesworn lmao

Edited September 30 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

12 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

If they take the same route they took for spellbreaker, they'll end up removing 2 whirl finishers from focus5.

Don't act like spellbreaker in particular (or warrior in general) got this huge round of nerfs; it didn't.

*resigned distant sigh*

The patch notes are right there dude. Idk what to tell you. You were very vocal about prepatch path of victory, so I don't buy that you don't recognize how significant the changes here were.

Regardless of everything, the wheel will turn. Players don't sit quietly when theres obvious disparity in what is afforded to different classes.

I enjoy our banter either way. 

Edited September 30 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[WingSwipe.3084]

10 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Except bladesworn lmao

You dont have to rub it in. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Except bladesworn lmao

If you realize wild throw got obliterated out of the gate on berserker, spear swipe is now less reliable than most blocks, and that I have to choose between harriers toss and my classes mechanic, we now have the same opinion. 

Do you get what I'm saying?

[Terrorhuz.4695]

35 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

You dont have to rub it in. 

True loss tbh, bladesworn got some real nice visual effect work, but the whole "sit on your kitten while charging your kamehameha" concept was just unfit for gw2, regardless of the gamemode. If the DT skills just became regular skills on your F bar, like mesmer shatter, I believe bladesworn could have been much funnier. 

30 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

wild throw got obliterated out of the gate on berserker,

it definitely wasn't, I got by by some 12k wild throw yesterday. A coefficient on spear won't fix your class mechanic locked behind 30 adrenaline in general -and most certainly won't when your competition can activate their class mechanic with a third of the price you pay.

Edited September 30 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

True loss tbh, bladesworn got some real nice visual effect work, but the whole "sit on your kitten while charging your kamehameha" concept was just unfit for gw2, regardless of the gamemode. If the DT skills just became regular skills on your F bar, like mesmer shatter, I believe bladesworn could have been much funnier. 

That is one rework I've advocated for BSW. Dragon Slash variants on F1-F3 and consume set amounts of flow, but not all flow, without the need to charge anything. Dodge becomes a non-ground target version of Flickerstep and it gets three dodges, Gunsaber becomes an elite that is a psuedo-kit, and Tactical Reload is removed from the game.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

22 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

 

it definitely wasn't, I got by by some 12k wild throw yesterday. 

I find that exceedingly hard to believe, but the damage wasn't what I was talking about. 

Quote

The problem with power berserker runs much deeper than some coeff on spear.

Given anet has difficulty grasping this, surely you can see how the problem gets magnified when the functionality on spearmarshals, wild throw and spear swipe get weakened.

At any rate that's two specs with issues.  Do you see why I'm so chatty yet?

Edited September 30 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

6 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

but the damage wasn't what I was talking about. 

Then I entirely fail to understand what "destroyed" wild throw

53 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You were very vocal about prepatch path of victory

I was vocal about a melee skill tethering from a range twice as big as that of the (already subtle enough) animation.

This is not a nerf; the skill in its previous state should have never made it past the QA team to begin with. It was a kittening bug.

And 240 range for an AoE is not small at all. It's the size of a well. Staff wasn't neutered; it just got the radius adjusted to what is visually shown on screen, and it's an extremely generous range for a melee skill.

Edited September 30 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Endo.1652]

On 9/22/2024 at 4:02 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

I'm pretty sure I was watching Ops or someone stream it farming people a couple days ago. To be clear, I'm not saying these builds are meta, but they're easily good enough to get top 100 (or whatever metric you care about) if you're competent on them.

Spears/expansion feedback is a bit different from regular balance. They're trying to sell you something and will therefore devote more resources.

And from the perspective Engi feedback, the spear was an obvious cluster-kitten on day 1 and hardly anything has changed from forum feedback. Surely giving the class without a weapon swap a weapon with 0 defensives, a leap finisher that doesn't finish, slow skills unaffected by quickness, and low damage is good design. All called out early in the feedback. Their changes like tuning animation speed and adding more visual effects felt more like "finishing up planned development on an incomplete weapon" disguised as "we listen to you!".

Hey if you feel bad about engi spear just remember this, at least it isn't thief spear lmao.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Then I entirely fail to understand what "destroyed" wild throw

It has facing issues where someone sidestepping too far to the left or right will cause the skill to cancel.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, Endo.1652 said:

Hey if you feel bad about engi spear just remember this, at least it isn't thief spear lmao.

True. Something something functionality changes out of the gate that made it weaker

4 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Then I entirely fail to understand what "destroyed" wild throw

The fact that you have to face your enemy to channel it, and if they move behind you or you attempt to channel it while your opponent is flanking you it eats your adrenaline, goes on cooldown and does nothing.  Anet loves to make us root ourselves.

Quote

 was vocal about a melee skill tethering from a range twice as big as that of the (already subtle enough) animation.

This is not a nerf; the skill in its previous state should have never made it past the QA team to begin with. It was a kittening bug.

Big nerf for me, one damaging skill on the entire kit besides the burst and it's ground targeted with the same radius. seems like they should have fixed the full counter bug so you got tethered less instead of making the weapon less capable when the other two specs have mechanical problems.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It has facing issues where someone sidestepping too far to the left or right will cause the skill to cancel.

I didn't try spear berserker, does the autotracking work if you don't move?

Edited September 30 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Wait, y'all warriors used to fart a flurry of spears for 12k from your butthole without even facing your enemy and expected this to be fair balance?

*rubs temples*

ᴬᵗ ˡᵉᵃˢᵗ ᵐᵃᵏᵉ ᵗʰᵉ ˢᵏᶦˡˡ ⁿᵒᵗ ᵉᵃᵗ ᵃᵈʳᵉⁿ ʷʰᵉⁿ ᵗʰᵉ ᵍᵃᵐᵉ ᵗʰᶦⁿᵏˢ ʸᵒᵘ'ʳᵉ ⁿᵒᵗ ᶠᵃᶜᶦⁿᵍ ʸᵒᵘʳ ᵉⁿᵉᵐʸ

Its not lost on me that you need to eat an entire wild throw without doing anything about it to make this argument (and that eating gunflame will do the same damage over less time) but like I said before, the damage isnt what I take issue with. 

Edited September 30 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

ᴬᵗ ˡᵉᵃˢᵗ ᵐᵃᵏᵉ ᵗʰᵉ ˢᵏᶦˡˡ ⁿᵒᵗ ᶜᵃⁿᶜᵉˡ ᵒʳ ᵉᵃᵗ ᵃᵈʳᵉⁿ ʷʰᵉⁿ ᵗʰᵉ ᵍᵃᵐᵉ ᵗʰᶦⁿᵏˢ ʸᵒᵘ'ʳᵉ ⁿᵒᵗ ᶠᵃᶜᶦⁿᵍ ʸᵒᵘʳ ᵉⁿᵉᵐʸ

I can accept this

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

15 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I didn't try spear berserker, does the autotracking work if you don't move?

Only if the opponent doesn't move past your shoulder. 

Also note you have to root yourself 💀

[Endo.1652]

9 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

True. Something something functionality changes out of the gate that made it weaker

The weapon never "functioned" in pvp to begin with. The entire weapon only ever existed off of some cheesy exploitable mechanic and nothing else.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Only if the opponent doesn't move past your shoulder. 

like gs2 on mesmer then, I see why it would be unusable. Wouldn't be opposed to keep the facing requirement, but making it track properly if you stand still (kind of like most beams in the game)

Edited September 30 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

The weapon never "functioned" in pvp to begin with. The entire weapon only ever existed off of some cheesy exploitable mechanic and nothing else.

Hey!

I loved cartwheeling with spear 3 .

If that was cheesy then I accept my new Skaven title, yes-yes.

I can forgive up to 4 weird skills if one of them is SICK.

Edited September 30 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

like gs2 on mesmer then, I see why it would be unusable. Wouldn't be opposed to keep the facing requirement, but making it track properly if you stand still (kind of like most beams in the game)

I would contend that it should track properly even if the Berserker doesn't stand still. Get the skill in a well-functioning state and then address any issues with the damage levels. Keep in mind though that they buffing the 1 shot meme build next week for some weird kitten reason...

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would contend that it should track properly even if the Berserker doesn't stand still.

no you can't fart spears from your anus while running in the opposite direction. If you want to throw a spear, have the decency to show your face in the process. 

[Captain Crapface.7528]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

things I've been advocating to do on mesmer

• Nuke Signet of Illusions. Shouldn't refund entirely f3/f4 to prevent mesmers from chaining distortions
• Nuke Blurred Inscriptions. Signets shouldn't give distortion
• Remove the mirrors from Desert Distortion: Degenerate defensive spam, has no reason to exist.
• Rework chronomancer shatters so they have cast times. Instacast shatters during CS are mindless enough. The burst becomes uncounterable too when coupled with unchanneled distortion, and uncounterable things aren't good.
• Carpet nerf staff as a whole. Let's start by removing damaging conditions from clones, for a start, and see where it goes.
• Remove the cleanse on CC from Auspicious Anguish. You shouldn't be rewarded for eating a CC.
• Cut 20% of damage from all spear skills. On chaos\illusions spear4 can land some 12k nukes, it's absolutely overtuned.
• Straight up remove the heal on Imaginary Inversion. Using it with clarity might get a lower cd, but mesmer must have no access to resustain.
• Change the stun on Mental Collapse to a daze. Cuz no dmg on CC, that's the rules.
• Make the delayed pulses on Mental Collapse not stun people who dodged the first pulse. Same problem DT used to have, btw.
• Give a frame1 particle effect on Magic Bullet. 2s hard stun from 1200 range, needs a proper telegraph instead of being some generic, subtle "point a gun" gesture

And you know all of that because you were in every one of those threads. You can stop being a smug kitten for once.

IGNORE ALL OF THIS!!! DONT LISTEN TO PEOPLE KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!! SPEAR IS THE PROBLEM!!!! NERF SPEAR!!! NERF SPEAR!!! NERF SPEAR!!! NERF SPEAR!!!