Are content creators healthy for the game?

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

I get they're good for advertising, but I recently read a comment that went something like: "The reason warrior might've been nerfed again recently while other classes were ignored is because MightyTeapot spent almost an entire hour on stream gaslighting his viewers into thinking warriors were insanely broken and all warrior players did was cry."

What are your thoughts? Is this true?

AND how IS the balance team getting their balance feedback? 

Side comment: 

It almost kinda feels true with how power GS mirage's ambush was nerfed by like 25-30% in WvW for no reason at all. Does anyone know if some big content creator was wailing about power GS mirage recently? 

Edited October 11 by Bach From The Brink.2715

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

balance team only listen to big wvw guilds (recent necro nerf) and pvp streamers so...

[Smoothpine.1895]

I watched that stream he praised the Sept.10th Warrior nerfs and him saying what happened to Spear Swipe was "reasonable", and acting like Warrior would still be the best DPS in slot profession in WvW, in his own words.

Here's the video, I have it auto play on the warrior segment.

 

Edited October 10 by Smoothpine.1895

[Gop.8713]

I think the fact that they exist is probably good, indicates that ppls like the game and want to stream it, but the question in your title doesn't seem to be the question you're asking. What you actually seem to be asking is should devs be listening to streamers when it comes to how to balance the game and I would certainly hope they do not, and I'm not sure we really have any evidence that they do . . .

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

15 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

I think the fact that they exist is probably good, indicates that ppls like the game and want to stream it, but the question in your title doesn't seem to be the question you're asking. What you actually seem to be asking is should devs be listening to streamers when it comes to how to balance the game and I would certainly hope they do not, and I'm not sure we really have any evidence that they do . . .

I wouldn't be surprised if they're talking with streamers / youtubers. They have in the past if I recall right. Wouldn't be surprised if some of their opinions just so happened to seep into balance changes. Kinda feels like that's what might've happened with mirage's GS ambush.

There are so many builds ahead of it even when you play it well and it still got the nerf HAMMER for the 5? people who play it. NO one was asking for a nerf, NO one was complaining about power GS mirage, NO one was spamming the spec, NO one was being asked to swap to it because its soooo broken.  It wasn't a small nerf either, they straight up obliterated it lmao. It feels kinda personal actually. Wonder if some DEV got sent to the shadow realm by some power GS mirage several times in a row. It's so wrong that it straight up should make anyone question if the DEVs have any idea how to balance their game. It literally shows they're one step away from destroying off-meta playstyles for just being viable BECAUSE ??? who knows. 

Edited October 10 by Bach From The Brink.2715

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

25 minutes ago, Smoothpine.1895 said:

I watched that stream he praised the Sept.10th Warrior nerfs and him saying what happened to Spear Swipe was "reasonable", and acting like Warrior would still be the best DPS in slot profession in WvW, in his own words.

Here's the video, I have it auto play on the warrior segment.

 

Not even shocked that exists. L M A O 

Waiting for the discord logs showing chats about how balance actually happens again! 

[Gop.8713]

Okay, really splitting hairs here but yes, soliciting feedback is good. Devs should "listen to" players wherever they can interact with them, but what I'm saying is I'd like to believe they have an idea about what they want the game to look like and how to best implement that idea, and they are hopefully the most qualified ppls to work towards that goal since they are actually, y'know, developing the game. So: Soliciting feedback is good, replacing dev judgment with player feedback is bad . . .

But now I'm still not sure that's what you're asking, you just seem sort of  upset that your build got nerfed, to which I would say there are always plenty of broken builds to leverage if that's your thing, just find another one . . .

And be aware that when you do find another one, it's likely to be nerfed at some point. It is this sort of constant adaptation that defines the game . . .

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

4 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

Okay, really splitting hairs here but yes, soliciting feedback is good. Devs should "listen to" players wherever they can interact with them, but what I'm saying is I'd like to believe they have an idea about what they want the game to look like and how to best implement that idea, and they are hopefully the most qualified ppls to work towards that goal since they are actually, y'know, developing the game. So: Soliciting feedback is good, replacing dev judgment with player feedback is bad . . .

But now I'm still not sure that's what you're asking, you just seem sort of  upset that your build got nerfed, to which I would say there are always plenty of broken builds to leverage if that's your thing, just find another one . . .

And be aware that when you do find another one, it's likely to be nerfed at some point. It is this sort of constant adaptation that defines the game . . .

>Broken builds 

>Power mirage GS 

I don't think we're on the same page here. 

[Gop.8713]

kk I'll leave you to it then : )

 

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

Just now, Gop.8713 said:

kk I'll leave you to it then : )

 

At least you knew you were wrong. So many people, especially on forums like this one, love to just argue even against the fact just for "the heck of it." Have a good day sir! 

Edited October 10 by Bach From The Brink.2715

[Shuzuru.3651]

Well, Teapot talked a lot about things that deserve nerf and other thing that deserve buff, and a lot of those things never happened.

As for the warrior change, well, judging by my experience, it's probably similar to a lesser extent than the condi ren, where basically everyone was kinda excepting a nerf, based on the overal performance of the build

So to answer your question : "like any other player"

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

10 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Well, Teapot talked a lot about things that deserve nerf and other thing that deserve buff, and a lot of those things never happened.

As for the warrior change, well, judging by my experience, it's probably similar to a lesser extent than the condi ren, where basically everyone was kinda excepting a nerf, based on the overal performance of the build

So to answer your question : "like any other player"

I think he probably gets a lot of stuff wrong. By metrics, PvE warrior apparently wasn't performing as well as other specs yet those other specs avoided the nerf bat. 

As for stuff like power mirage GS, who knows. No one was asking for a nerf and no one was complaining about it being broken. I've played it over 2ish years, and I've pretty frequently been asked if I could swap to anything else because its selfish, doesn't have as much potential dmg as other specs, doesn't really generate as many downs as other specs (since its spread), doesn't provide boons, and well, yeah... It's just a worse off-meta option compared to oodles of other things. 

Yet it received a 25-30% nerf because... of something? Who knows. Kinda wild that something that's off-meta and niche can get destroyed like that. Really should make everyone question what stuff is going on over in DEV land. 

Edited October 10 by Bach From The Brink.2715

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

They have this illustrious but questionable discord group. You can view it as a high council of elite-players, who are considered experts in their field. Balance team discusses balancing with them. We do not know who exactly belongs to that group, except for a few people who became visible with the leaks. The problem with this group is that they are at the outer top-end of the gauss-curve. They do not represent the majority of the playerbase with their skill-level. This lead to rather questionable balance-patches, where obviously average performing builds got nerfed to oblivion - because that one player in the group managed to reach a power-level that was not accessible for 95-99 % of the playerbase.

The main reason for this is that most of us do not play for a living. The amount of time and resources they spend on playing those classes can be compared to a RL job. So I assume some of them to be content-creators.

I'm not a huge fan of that concept and there was a massive backlash from community-side, when the existence of that group and some of their chat-protocols were leaked a few years ago. The balance team changed since then and the situation was quite heated to say the least. One of their members even received death-threats from certain angry players. 

I know who is responsible for my class (in that group), but I am not a fan of that person. We had plenty of conflicts when they still visited the forums. But they are elite-enough to have a very special tunnel-view. They ignore a lot of things I use or do not consider those worth their precious time. That works in my favor so far.

Regarding streamers. Experience has proven that the balance-team does listen to them and sometimes follows their recommendations exactly. They make a living with playing the game. So they create content that generates clicks, which is in my opinion a little problematic. They also have way too many play-hours to somewhat compare to the average-players. With their content, they reach a wide range of the player-base and are currently defining and dominating the meta. So what they consider worthwhile gets attention.

As average players, we have a little power left. We can elaborate our discontent with certain changes, but it is very unlikely that they are going to listen to any of our direct suggestions/requests anymore. They have their preferred sources of information. 

Note: Non of this is classified information. All of this can still be googled. The internet never forgets.

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

3 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

They have this illustrious but questionable discord group. You can view it as a high council of elite-players, who are considered experts in their field. Balance team discusses balancing with them. We do not know who exactly belongs to that group, except for a few people who became visible with the leaks. The problem with this group is that they are at the outer top-end of the gauss-curve. They do not represent the majority of the playerbase with their skill-level. This lead to rather questionable balance-patches, where obviously average performing builds got nerfed to oblivion - because that one player in the group managed to reach a power-level that was not accessible for 95-99 % of the playerbase.

The main reason for this is that most of us do not play for a living. The amount of time and resources they spend on playing those classes can be compared to a RL job. So I assume some of them to be content-creators.

I'm not a huge fan of that concept and there was a massive backlash from community-side, when the existence of that group and some of their chat-protocols were leaked a few years ago. The balance team changed since then and the situation was quite heated to say the least. One of their members even received death-threats from certain angry players. 

I know who is responsible for my class (in that group), but I am not a fan of that person. We had plenty of conflicts when they still visited the forums. But they are elite-enough to have a very special tunnel-view. They ignore a lot of things I use or do not consider those worth their precious time. That works in my favor so far.

Regarding streamers. Experience has proven that the balance-team does listen to them and sometimes follows their recommendations exactly. They make a living with playing the game. So they create content that generates clicks, which is in my opinion a little problematic. They also have way too many play-hours to somewhat compare to the average-players. With their content, they reach a wide range of the player-base and are currently defining and dominating the meta. So what they consider worthwhile gets attention.

As average players, we have a little power left. We can elaborate our discontent with certain changes, but it is very unlikely that they are going to listen to any of our direct suggestions/requests anymore. They have their preferred sources of information. 

Note: Non of this is classified information. All of this can still be googled. The internet never forgets.

Im about the furthest thing from shocked. I remember seeing those chats all those years ago and its hilarious how people have forgotten or dont think anything like that could still be going on. But hey, blind trust is comforting, and some people love that and wouldn't let go of it for the world. Questioning things and digging deeper is tough and takes time and going against all the people who do prefer that comfort. 

[Ashantara.8731]

I only watch so-called content creators occasionally, but MightyTeapot's analysees are usually correct. I do not get the impression that the devs listen to him or others I watch. If they did, a lot would be different. 😉 I do, however, hope that the devs at least take feedback to heart, and in some cases they definitely did in the past -- but not so much in terms of balancing. That's my inpression.

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

33 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I only watch so-called content creators occasionally, but MightyTeapot's analysees are usually correct. I do not get the impression that the devs listen to him or others I watch. If they did, a lot would be different. 😉 I do, however, hope that the devs at least take feedback to heart, and in some cases they definitely did in the past -- but not so much in terms of balancing. That's my inpression.

Reminder that a while back logs leaked and it showed the lead balance dev openly talking about how they were balancing based on what was popular + they enjoyed. Leading up to that, people would always talk about how some nerfs / buffs seemed suspiciously... directed... but people would just gaslight them into silence. 

And then the logs leaked! At long last, we were free for a time. 

But the fact that someone like that was even allowed to be the lead balance dev for a pretty good amount of time doesn't really speak any good about integrity. The only reason he was ever removed wasn't because of what he was saying in the discord, it's because what he was saying got LEAKED. 

[Ashantara.8731]

10 minutes ago, Bach From The Brink.2715 said:

Reminder that a while back logs leaked

True, but I do not recall the mention of specific content creators having any influence. 🤔

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

Just now, Ashantara.8731 said:

True, but I do not recall the mention of specific content creators having any influence. 🤔

You can think what you will! If you do not want to change, that would be entirely on you! Sometimes comfort is the best option. It depends on who you are! 

I'm pretty sure content creators and other peeps were present in that discord. At least one person who was present there, and likely able to influence dev decisions to at least some degree, felt the need to post something about what was going on in that discord group. Anet allowed that to happen for a pretty long time and only removed that person when they started getting attention from the public. 

Remember, it isn't bad if you don't get caught doing the bad. 

[Ashantara.8731]

3 minutes ago, Bach From The Brink.2715 said:

You can think what you will! If you do not want to change, that would be entirely on you! Sometimes comfort is the best option. It depends on who you are! 

I do not recall the details of the leak, that's why I asked.

Your response suggests that I was in some sort of denial, which is not the case. 😄

Edited October 10 by Ashantara.8731

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

4 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I do not recall the details of the leak, that's why I asked.

Your response suggests that I was in some sort of denial, which is not the case. 😄

I don't think I suggested you were in denial! But that's ok, when things get tense people tend to feel like they're being called something or being told they're something - even when they're not! 

I'm just glad you're here in good faith! So many people don't use forums in good faith and would rather argue and gaslight people just for the heck of it! 

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Not when they are Arenanet Partners and they are allowed to talk smack and spread bs about a certain parts of the player base.

Mighty Teapot is a unique can of worms.

[Ashantara.8731]

15 minutes ago, Bach From The Brink.2715 said:

I don't think I suggested you were in denial! But that's ok, when things get tense people tend to feel like they're being called something or being told they're something - even when they're not! 

And again, you are assuming "tension", while I am super relaxed about the topic. 😄 Geez!

I couldn't care less about who's influencial and who isn't as long as the balance patch results make sense and don't ruin the fun of playing a profession/build.

[Shuzuru.3651]

1 hour ago, Bach From The Brink.2715 said:

I think he probably gets a lot of stuff wrong. By metrics, PvE warrior apparently wasn't performing as well as other specs yet those other specs avoided the nerf bat. 

You mean, being only top2 DPS by metrics?

Also, is the nerf that significative? They basically touches 2 skills on it, I don't think it will impact it much on the bench.

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

33 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

And again, you are assuming "tension", while I am super relaxed about the topic. 😄 Geez!

I couldn't care less about who's influencial and who isn't as long as the balance patch results make sense and don't ruin the fun of playing a profession/build.

No one was assuming anything about tension or accusing you of not being relaxed, don't worry. 

To be fair, they do ruin the fun pretty often. Heck, they nerfed power GS mirage this patch by like 25-30% when no one was complaining about it, no one was getting huuuge dps/downs on it, no one was being asked to swap power GS mirage because its meta (it isnt). It just doesn't have any of the other things other specs have like strips, boons, or even just focused damage since most of your damage is spread. You'd hit like 8-9k dps in a good fight (and that's only if you're some kinda mesmer god, most people are hitting 3-5k on it tops) while there's multiple other builds that'll hit that, but it'll actually be focused damage and generate downs (and sometimes, theyll even provide boons on top of that number). Not to mention you get to sit in the boon ball and you can move around a lot. If you move around a lot on mirage or play in terrain, it cut your dps by a pretty big amount. You also have to deal with getting condis on you (which is pretty bad for power mesmers) and also with thiefs/other roamers hoping on you. It was kinda like a worse staff weaver, but it kinda just got destroyed for z-e-r-o reason. 

Edited October 10 by Bach From The Brink.2715

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

9 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

You mean, being only top2 DPS by metrics?

Also, is the nerf that significative? They basically touches 2 skills on it, I don't think it will impact it much on the bench.

I think the main issue was that there's a few other specs that were already outperforming warrior that didn't get touched at all this patch. Someone wrote a post about how the warrior nerf would be good since DPS can trivialize fights / boss mechanics, but they also said it was very weird that other specs, which ANET has data on, aren't getting touched.