Weaver seems too strong.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Blood.5607 said:Weaver (tempest) have always been one of the strongest power DPS in the meta. For a class that has a high-skill cap in rotation deserves that spot in significant damage if executed, it also has one of the lowest HP pools to make up for it. Some classes are just meta, others arent exactly. Also Weaver just has a ton of pulsing AoE power damage.

Well, HP pools really should be revised imo, especially with specializations.Also Guardian and Thief suffer from the same HP problems (have the same base health as Ele) and don't do nearly as much DPS.I'm not saying it's OP as in nerf it, but surely its about time that someone can match Ele's dps.

There's a fine balance you need to have. The only way this is possible is by removing some of the classes innate tools in favor of dps, or by seperating defensive utility from offensive, like ele. I think necro suffers from this problem as well. It has no pure dps options, but dps and utility, which means the class doesnt do as much damage as ele, because its skills have a dual purpose.

To be frank, I think HP pools should be swapped for some classes, but over all, classes like necro need high base vitality imo, due to their defensive options lacking. I think warrior, needs a bit of a higher base HP. It's the same as necro's which is good.

I think balance wise, ele is just ahead due to numbers, but weaver is probably the best spec for 'purity of purpose' and i think anet hit the head on the mark with it design wise.

[narcx.3570]

Well your Renegade golem test will always be off because you're not accounting for all the Bleeds your allies generate for you or the hidden numbers of giving your sub AP...

[Indecision.4513]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:Run a full clear on weaver, on all bosses, and come back with logs. If it’s as op as you say you should be top dps on all fights, right?

/s mode off

That wouldn't be that hard actually if you pug raids. I was top dps at vg with condi renegade more than once.If they just nerf the modfiers outside of tempest defense nobody would ever want a weaver on a small hitbox.

Are you suggesting your average pug chrono can give you perma alacrity, quickness and distort every slam on gorseval?

Please post a log where you beat a mirage, renegade or holosmith on matthias. I’m intrigued :)

[Zlater.6789]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Zlater.6789" said:

3. The argument that mirage or thief is more defensive is fair, I would even support it and say they are stronger with bad alacrity because a lot of their dps is not alacrity or quickness dependant. But there is also the flip side that mirage and thief also have far worse recovery. Because they use their defensive resources for dps (heal, initiative and endurance) usually they can't do more than a single dodge when things go south.

You are definitely not playing thief. Thief's damage greatly relies on quickness, since basically all damage comes from the weapon and not from skills. Also, a thief never runs out of dodges. If he does, a quick sigil of agility activation is enough to fill up endurance again, and if you really dodge around all the time (breaking your auto-attack constantly), you can always use staff #5 to keep dodging without endurance.

The person was talking about condi theif, with doesnt use signet of agility.

In my book, that doesn't make thief a defensive class. I would consider guardian much more defensive, because it really has skills that defend from taking damage. Thief either avoids damage by stepping aside or eats it.

He never said that makes theif a defensive class, he said that makes theif BUILDS more defensive, as they combine an offensive tool with dodging, and have high endurance gain/usage or regen. If you need to side step to avoid damage as condi theif you are playing it wrong.

Frost is correct.

Firstly power thief is no longer a competitive dps option. However it is still viable, but if you want to play it...

Power thief no longer uses signet of agility, it's been like that since the change to twin fangs, this is because they are already overcapped on precision.

Condition Thief is still strong, however both deathblossom and lotus training are unaffected by quickness or alacrity.

You ask if I play thief, not anymore...

[Faaris.8013]

@"Zlater.6789" said:Power thief no longer uses signet of agility, it's been like that since the change to twin fangs, this is because they are already overcapped on precision.

Condition Thief is still strong, however both deathblossom and lotus training are unaffected by quickness or alacrity.

You ask if I play thief, not anymore...

Thank you for clarifying that you were talking about condi thief. I'm not sure which game mode you are talking about, but power thief definitely uses signet of agility, so the statement that "Power thief no longer uses signet of agility" is simply not true. Just play some fractals and you'll see no power thief without signet of agility. We don't slot it for precision but for condi cleansing and refilling endurance to have more "immobile" breaks at consoles.

[Zlater.6789]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Zlater.6789" said:Power thief no longer uses signet of agility, it's been like that since the change to twin fangs, this is because they are already overcapped on precision.

Condition Thief is still strong, however both deathblossom and lotus training are unaffected by quickness or alacrity.

You ask if I play thief, not anymore...

Thank you for clarifying that you were talking about condi thief. I'm not sure which game mode you are talking about, but power thief definitely uses signet of agility, so the statement that "Power thief no longer uses signet of agility" is simply not true. Just play some fractals and you'll see no power thief without signet of agility. We don't slot it for precision but for condi cleansing and refilling endurance to have more "immobile" breaks at consoles.

I don't wanna come across as a douchebag, but you need to find some good friends to fractal with.

If you're playing Staff DD in fraxs I especially wouldn't bring signet. Like the passive is useless because of potion stat conversion. You say you bring it for cleansing immob, but I think you forgot about staff 3 :tongue:

Condi cleansing I'd prefer to let my chrono/druid/SB/scourge and even my holosmith do that because they are more efficient. But If I was forced to I'd probably be more tempted to bring hide in shadows. At least you can use it to precast revealed training.

[Lalainnia.3598]

Tempest Defense needs to go. get rid of that trait thats the very first thing that needs to happen to weavers and see what happens from there should bring them down a notch on multiple bosses that take extra damage stunned. While everyone says get rid of big hitbox damage which im totally for I don't think ppl realize how big of an impact it will actually have on other classes, ele ofc being getting hit the hardest.

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

Yes I want my much much easier to stay alive guardian to do more dmg than the super squishy weaver...Why would a super squishy class that can go down in 1 hit do more dps than a class that can get hit and block attacks multiple times?Weaver is too strong! pls make weaver useless..

[Indecision.4513]

@Lalainnia.3598 said:Tempest Defense needs to go. get rid of that trait thats the very first thing that needs to happen to weavers and see what happens from there should bring them down a notch on multiple bosses that take extra damage stunned. While everyone says get rid of big hitbox damage which im totally for I don't think ppl realize how big of an impact it will actually have on other classes, ele ofc being getting hit the hardest.

The trait is broken on exactly „one” raid boss out of 15-16 encounters and that is why it should be nerfed? Might as well remove ele from pve if weaver gets nerfed, considering it brings no utility, self sustain or useful buffs.

It’s a situational glass cannon „if the stars align and you don’t suck”. Nothing more.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Zlater.6789" said:I don't wanna come across as a kitten, but you need to find some good friends to fractal with.

If you're playing Staff DD in fraxs I especially wouldn't bring signet. Like the passive is useless because of potion stat conversion. You say you bring it for cleansing immob, but I think you forgot about staff 3 :tongue:

Oh, you can even use staff #5 for that. It's your choice to not slot the sigil, just don't claim that "Power thief no longer uses signet of agility" while the majority of power thieves slots the sigil. Just look around you and you'll see that this statement is BS. I actually don't waste stats by getting more than 100% crit chance, I adapt to the group composition I'm in. If I'm playing with a druid and a warrior, I can change gear to not have a surplus of precision. Having more than 14k health as power thief without losing dps is quite relaxing. When you have lots of AR, you can even swap out more gear without getting below 100% crit chance. Most utility skills for thief are useless, even without the sigil's passice effect, I would slot it.

My static group for fractals is awesome, we have a lot of fun and clear T4 dailies in 30 minutes on average. Thanks for the suggestion, but I definitely don't need to find good friends for fractals, I already have more than fit into one fractal party.

[Xantaria.8726]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:Well, in all fairness... I shouldn't have expected people to agree that anything is too strong.

I kicked the sacred cow of the meta.

I'm not calling for "nerf this skill, or buff that skill"

I'm just saying they need to either (or/both) bring ele down a peg, or everyone else up a peg.

I'm not saying everyone needs be even. Far from it. All I'm saying is, when the gold medalist makes the silver medalist look like he got his medal from the special Olympics.... It's time to give silver a hand, or bust gold for cheating.

We expect Michael Phelps to win. We don't expect him to completely obliterate and be drying off before everyone else's splash has fallen.

Yeah weaver is pretty OP, still hitting 37k when messing up your rotation totaly, but he will struggle when not in a static or having the 1% chance of getting a actual awesome pug group where you can play weaver. then you will fall below 15k while the rest will stay ~25k. Tempest and weaver where always the meta, but i dont see a problem with that (and no, i am not playing them mainly, main dh here :P). They always had more dps for being more squishy and less support, and its not like the bosses are impossible without weaver. Everything can easily be done without weavers, its just take some seconds longer for each boss though its much safer.I wouldnt say that i would be totaly mad when they nerf weaver, since its not my first pick when deciding for a dps class, but i would feel sad about it since in my opinion one should get rewarded for playing a more complex rotation (not saying that weaver is so difficult from learning the rotation, but with mirage i can easily hit 33k and others who played him for the first time after gearing instantly hit 31k without problems, while for weaver you still need to actual invest some hours the reach 40k+) instead of getting only 1k more dps then the number 2.

May i ask for a logg of your cairn kill? i somehow highly doubt that you can outmatch a mirage there.

[DutchRiders.2871]

@AnariiUK.7409 said:I feel as though Weaver could use a slight shave to its damage, most notably through tempest defence since that contributes to it being absolutely broken in fractals and at KC. Compared to other power classes (Holo/DH) it's only marginally ahead at most fights but lacks the CC/buffing capabilities of those classes. I don't agree that staff Weaver has a particularly difficult rotation; once you get used to it, it's arguably easier than most other classes just due to being a simple fixed rotation through fire-fire and earth-fire with the odd air thrown in every now and then. Ideally they should buff the weaker power classes (Necro, Soulbeast) up a little while nerfing Weaver/Holo/DH accordingly.

Mirage on the other hand isn't overpowered with the exception of Cairn and perhaps Matthias, however my biggest gripe with it is just the sheer volume of evades available. If anything I'd like to see it (and condi DD) nerfed with respect to the other condition builds that don't bring nearly as much survivability to the table. Either that or address the endurance regen food + energy sigil combo that gives Mirage such insane evasion uptime, while buffing its damage elsewhere. I should not be able to stand in well of profanes/storm clouds at Matthias and just evade through all of the damage while dealing 30k DPS.

Tempest defense needs a nerf period. Weaver dps in raids is fine only on good pulls you see weavers do significantly more dps. The price you pay on weaver is that other dps professions rely less on support to pull strong numbers.

Raiders that are new to a class get punished harder on a weaver and veterans get rewarded more on a weaver. I find it more difficult to truely optimise renegade dps for example, altough it is fairly easy to play.

This is how I feel about weaver and dps classes. Personally I pray for Condi druid/chrono dps buffs and changes to spirits/banners. Druid /chrono/warrior feel boring.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Raguel.9402 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:Run a full clear on weaver, on all bosses, and come back with logs. If it’s as op as you say you should be top dps on all fights, right?

/s mode off

That wouldn't be that hard actually if you pug raids. I was top dps at vg with condi renegade more than once.If they just nerf the modfiers outside of tempest defense nobody would ever want a weaver on a small hitbox.

Are you suggesting your average pug chrono can give you perma alacrity, quickness and distort every slam on gorseval?

Please post a log where you beat a mirage, renegade or holosmith on matthias. I’m intrigued :)

No, but the average pug holo or rengade are usually bad too. Beating a pug mirage on matthias could be a challenge though.Pug raids are usually the place where you can be top dps with almost anything. Except for maybe beating mirage because its braindead easy to have high dps on that.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Raguel.9402 said:

@Lalainnia.3598 said:Tempest Defense needs to go. get rid of that trait thats the very first thing that needs to happen to weavers and see what happens from there should bring them down a notch on multiple bosses that take extra damage stunned. While everyone says get rid of big hitbox damage which im totally for I don't think ppl realize how big of an impact it will actually have on other classes, ele ofc being getting hit the hardest.

The trait is broken on exactly „one” raid boss out of 15-16 encounters and that is why it should be nerfed? Might as well remove ele from pve if weaver gets nerfed, considering it brings no utility, self sustain or useful buffs.

It’s a situational glass cannon „if the stars align and you don’t suck”. Nothing more.

It's not a problem in raids but weaver is in a really healthy spot there anyways.Except for KC because of that trait.But Weaver is in a complete broken state in fractals just because of that one trait. I tried it. Played mostly holo first before i switched to weaver because i didn't have a chance vs weaver on almost any boss. Having high dps is fine but 20k+ higher dps on burst rotations at some cm bosses is not ok.

[Lalainnia.3598]

@Raguel.9402 said:

@Lalainnia.3598 said:Tempest Defense needs to go. get rid of that trait thats the very first thing that needs to happen to weavers and see what happens from there should bring them down a notch on multiple bosses that take extra damage stunned. While everyone says get rid of big hitbox damage which im totally for I don't think ppl realize how big of an impact it will actually have on other classes, ele ofc being getting hit the hardest.

The trait is broken on exactly „one” raid boss out of 15-16 encounters and that is why it should be nerfed? Might as well remove ele from pve if weaver gets nerfed, considering it brings no utility, self sustain or useful buffs.

It’s a situational glass cannon „if the stars align and you don’t suck”. Nothing more.

Hi I may be wrong but it works on 2 more raid bosses KC being the most insane. Gorse after attempting to eat the world and on Demios Sauls. The statement was primarily meant for fractal bosses especially CMs thus the reason for me saying bosses and not raids specifically.

[Zlater.6789]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Zlater.6789" said:I don't wanna come across as a kitten, but you need to find some good friends to fractal with.

If you're playing Staff DD in fraxs I especially wouldn't bring signet. Like the passive is useless because of potion stat conversion. You say you bring it for cleansing immob, but I think you forgot about staff 3 :tongue:

Oh, you can even use staff #5 for that. It's your choice to not slot the sigil, just don't claim that "Power thief no longer uses signet of agility" while the majority of power thieves slots the sigil. Just look around you and you'll see that this statement is BS. I actually don't waste stats by getting more than 100% crit chance, I adapt to the group composition I'm in. If I'm playing with a druid and a warrior, I can change gear to not have a surplus of precision. Having more than 14k health as power thief without losing dps is quite relaxing. When you have lots of AR, you can even swap out more gear without getting below 100% crit chance. Most utility skills for thief are useless, even without the sigil's passice effect, I would slot it.

My static group for fractals is awesome, we have a lot of fun and clear T4 dailies in 30 minutes on average. Thanks for the suggestion, but I definitely don't need to find good friends for fractals, I already have more than fit into one fractal party.

I'm not making an untrue statement at all though, I think you're actually just being defensive because you're being put to shame. If you check Snow Crows (meta for raids) signet of agility is not even listed as an option. If you check Discretize (fractal meta) power thief isn't even listed as viable. You're playing a meme build with a meme PvP utility in PvE for survivability on a class with 3 dodge rolls and spammable i-frames, and you insist on stacking extra vitality for even further survivability, I could probably gamble my life that youre using invigorating precision aswell. That's fine btw, but dont go pretending you know better than anyone else. At this point you're worse than a trailblazer scourge, who does more dps and has more group utility.

The reason that all of the thieves around you are using it is because you're playing with other players who are at the same skill level as you, or you've accidently confused the PvP lobby with fractals.

[Faaris.8013]

@Zlater.6789 said:If you check Snow Crows (meta for raids) signet of agility is not even listed as an option. If you check Discretize (fractal meta) power thief isn't even listed as viable.

Oh now I get it, you are talking about raid meta builds. Why didn't you just say that in the first place? So what you really meant to say is that according to Snow Crows, Power Thief in raids should not slot signet of agility.

Here's the thing: I'm not talking about raids and everybody who has a brain of himself can slot whatever is useful in specific situations.

Thank you for clarifying that.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:If you check Snow Crows (meta for raids) signet of agility is not even listed as an option. If you check Discretize (fractal meta) power thief isn't even listed as viable.

Oh now I get it, you are talking about raid meta builds. Why didn't you just say that in the first place? So what you really meant to say is that according to Snow Crows, Power Thief in raids should not slot signet of agility.

Here's the thing: I'm not talking about raids and everybody who has a brain of himself can slot whatever is useful in specific situations.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Shouldn't be used in fractals aswell because you get a high critchance bonus from potions.

[dontlook.1823]

Gonna go ahead and redirect everyone to Weaver. Let the guy run his signet.> @Nephalem.8921 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:If you check Snow Crows (meta for raids) signet of agility is not even listed as an option. If you check Discretize (fractal meta) power thief isn't even listed as viable.

Oh now I get it, you are talking about raid meta builds. Why didn't you just say that in the first place? So what you really meant to say is that according to Snow Crows, Power Thief in raids should not slot signet of agility.

Here's the thing: I'm not talking about raids and everybody who has a brain of himself can slot whatever is useful in specific situations.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Shouldn't be used in fractals aswell because you get a high critchance bonus from potions.

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Zlater.6789 said:I don't wanna come across as a kitten, but you need to find some good friends to fractal with.

If you're playing Staff DD in fraxs I especially wouldn't bring signet. Like the passive is useless because of potion stat conversion. You say you bring it for cleansing immob, but I think you forgot about staff 3 :tongue:

Oh, you can even use staff #5 for that. It's your choice to not slot the sigil, just don't claim that "Power thief no longer uses signet of agility" while the majority of power thieves slots the sigil. Just look around you and you'll see that this statement is BS. I actually don't waste stats by getting more than 100% crit chance, I adapt to the group composition I'm in. If I'm playing with a druid and a warrior, I can change gear to not have a surplus of precision. Having more than 14k health as power thief without losing dps is quite relaxing. When you have lots of AR, you can even swap out more gear without getting below 100% crit chance. Most utility skills for thief are useless, even without the sigil's passice effect, I would slot it.

My static group for fractals is awesome, we have a lot of fun and clear T4 dailies in 30 minutes on average. Thanks for the suggestion, but I definitely don't need to find good friends for fractals, I already have more than fit into one fractal party.

I'm not making an untrue statement at all though, I think you're actually just being defensive because you're being put to shame. If you check Snow Crows (meta for raids) signet of agility is not even listed as an option. If you check Discretize (fractal meta) power thief isn't even listed as viable. You're playing a meme build with a meme PvP utility in PvE for survivability on a class with 3 dodge rolls and spammable i-frames, and you insist on stacking extra vitality for even further survivability, I could probably gamble my life that youre using invigorating precision aswell. That's fine btw, but dont go pretending you know better than anyone else. At this point you're worse than a trailblazer scourge, who does more dps and has more group utility.

The reason that all of the thieves around you are using it is because you're playing with other players who are at the same skill level as you, or you've accidently confused the PvP lobby with fractals.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

So thanks for the hijacking on the thief signet discussion. Please move that mess over to thief fourms. Ty.

As for Weaver. Playing it all week. Beginning to see what folks are saying.

It is however a dramatic difference on golems and anywhere the tempest defense trait comes into play.

It's like Weaver is an extra set if food and utilities abover everyone else, with a skill cap that's insane.

Look, I play every class and have sense launch. I can figure out any given rotation, its not a big deal. But I was in group with some real badass weavers the other day, and I can't hit 46k. I can do 35k. 36 if I'm on fire.

So, I'd propose this:

Reduce the possible skill cap of Weaver.

• just doing your rotation in optimal gear and buffs has a variance of 22-46k
• the more skilled you are the closer you can get to that cap.
• the low end of weavers damage should be pushed up, so it's easier to hit higher numbers.
• some cool downs should be increased in length, just enough to break whatever timing is being used to push the highest end of the bracket.

TLDR: Weaver is too strong, but not much too strong, and it's a matter of tuning.... Exactly the type of buff Anet often does, that we end up complaining about.

[Attuned To Love.6579]

Yeah i totally agree! It is important for the health of the game that everyone on every class either warrior (with double the hp and way more armor than for example ele) or a chronomancer (providing insane buffs ) can do the same dps with just pressing random buttons !!! THIS IS WHAT REAL BALANCE SHOULD BE!

THONK THONK THONK THONK THONK THONK

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Attuned To Love.6579 said:Yeah i totally agree! It is important for the health of the game that everyone on every class either warrior (with double the hp and way more armor than for example ele) or a chronomancer (providing insane buffs ) can do the same dps with just pressing random buttons !!! THIS IS WHAT REAL BALANCE SHOULD BE!

THONK THONK THONK THONK THONK THONK

How in the world did you get that from what I said?

It's clear you just want to be the newest an most funny echo of everyone else's opinions here. But hey, that how group think works.

So this thread in a nutshell

• me: Weaver is to strong
• everyone else: no, it isn't, cause it's hard.
• me: it doesn't matter how hard it is, if your good.
• everyone else: but it's not the best everywhere, so it's not op.
• me: OK, I accept that it's in the right place, and should be top damage, but it's still tuned too high.
• everyone else: don't you propose nerfing our class.
• me: it's my class too...
• everyone else: we don't care. Don't get us nerfed damn it.

The nerf I'm actually proposing:

• I'm proposing adding a few seconds to things like lava font and pyroclastic blast. Maybe not cooldowns, just aftercast animation adjustments even. The aim being to break up whatever perfect rotation is hitting 46k.

The buff I'm actually proposing:

• Increase the base damage of eruption, plasma blast, and glyph of storms. Maybe not by much. The idea is to make the higher numbers shown in the rotation require less skill to attain.

So let me nutshell it down to a sentence.

I want to tune Weaver to be easier to be good at, and harder to be a God at.

[Daedraz.1650]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:The nerf I'm actually proposing:

• I'm proposing adding a few seconds to things like lava font and pyroclastic blast. Maybe not cooldowns, just aftercast animation adjustments even. The aim being to break up whatever perfect rotation is hitting 46k.

The buff I'm actually proposing:

• Increase the base damage of eruption, plasma blast, and glyph of storms. Maybe not by much. The idea is to make the higher numbers shown in the rotation require less skill to attain.

So let me nutshell it down to a sentence.

I want to tune Weaver to be easier to be good at, and harder to be a God at.

Animations and aftercasts don't account for a significant dps difference. At most I'd say it makes a 2-3K difference- it is just a min/max thing people do to squeeze out dps on benchmarks. Really not trying to be snide/rude or anything, but if your benchmarks are coming in at 10K lower than what they should be, that is more or less a PEBKAC error. I suspect that is the case since you mentioned you do 30K and 27K as a mirage and renegade respectively if you are "on fire," which I imagine made most people here raise an eyebrow. Mirage especially, is such an easy class that you can easily hit 33-34K on golems without even trying. The problems you are experiencing with weaver most likely means you either have a bad rotation or just have to practice more until you become fluid with your current rotation. Weaver is not a spec that you can master in a few hours or days. It is certainly not that one dimensional where all you do is just spam 2-3 between attunement swaps. It took me weeks of dragging my weaver to the test golem every day to become comfortable enough with it to start bringing it to raids. It took me at least another month to become comfortable playing my weaver in actual raids. Weaver takes time to learn how to play well; you gotta practice it until the rotation becomes embedded in your muscle memory. Set some time aside and take the time to learn weaver instead of asking Arena Net to dumb it down so you can take the easy way.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Daedraz.1650 said:

Weaver is not a spec that you can master in a few hours or days. It is certainly not that one dimensional where all you do is just spam 2-3 between attunement swaps.You are exaggerating stuff now. The rotation is not that hard. Too hard for 90% of the players? Maybe, but still way easier than condi engi. It took me some time at golem + 1-2 days pugging raids to get it down.Most of the dps depends on the chrono anyways. Really hard to cast meteor shower without quickness and dps drops a lot without alacrity.

[Vulf.3098]

Any competent raider can learn to play Weaver in a few hours.