Weaver seems too strong.

[Attuned To Love.6579]

The nerf I'm actually proposing:

• I'm proposing adding a few seconds to things like lava font and pyroclastic blast. Maybe not cooldowns, just aftercast animation adjustments even. The aim being to break up whatever perfect rotation is hitting 46k.

The buff I'm actually proposing:

• Increase the base damage of eruption, plasma blast, and glyph of storms. Maybe not by much. The idea is to make the higher numbers shown in the rotation require less skill to attain.

So let me nutshell it down to a sentence.

I want to tune Weaver to be easier to be good at, and harder to be a God at.

Why on earth do you want to make the class faceroll... as you already mentioned ... even a bad weaver can pull at least some more or less okayish dps...

so why on earth would you longer change or whatever do to cooldowns, what makes the rotation just more awful for skilled players , just to make it easier for bad players to use their skills???

makes 100% no sense at all

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Daedraz.1650 said:

Weaver is not a spec that you can master in a few hours or days. It is certainly not that one dimensional where all you do is just spam 2-3 between attunement swaps.You are exaggerating stuff now. The rotation is not that hard. Too hard for 90% of the players? Maybe, but still way easier than condi engi. It took me some time at golem + 1-2 days pugging raids to get it down.Most of the dps depends on the chrono anyways. Really hard to cast meteor shower without quickness and dps drops a lot without alacrity.

well the rotation is mostly straight forward ... it's more about the timings and about the knowledge when to change your base rotation or delay stuff in actual raids ... or adapt your rotation to bosses ( especially fractals )

[Chasind.3128]

too strong? in pve? bc in pvp its getting steamrolled

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Chasind.3128 said:too strong? in pve? bc in pvp its getting steamrolled

True. And Weaver needs a strong buff in PvP. Considering I don't play Weaver in PvP I'll let people who do suggest fixes for that in the PvP section of the fourms.

@Daedraz.1650 said:

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:The nerf I'm actually proposing:

• I'm proposing adding a few seconds to things like lava font and pyroclastic blast. Maybe not cooldowns, just aftercast animation adjustments even. The aim being to break up whatever perfect rotation is hitting 46k.

The

buff

I'm actually proposing:

• Increase the base damage of eruption, plasma blast, and glyph of storms. Maybe not by much. The idea is to make the higher numbers shown in the rotation require less skill to attain.

So let me nutshell it down to a sentence.

I want to tune Weaver to be easier to be good at, and harder to be a God at.

Animations and aftercasts don't account for a significant dps difference. At most I'd say it makes a 2-3K difference- it is just a min/max thing people do to squeeze out dps on benchmarks. Really not trying to be snide/rude or anything, but if your benchmarks are coming in at 10K lower than what they should be, that is more or less a PEBKAC error. I suspect that is the case since you mentioned you do 30K and 27K as a mirage and renegade respectively if you are "on fire," which I imagine made most people here raise an eyebrow. Mirage especially, is such an easy class that you can easily hit 33-34K on golems without even trying. The problems you are experiencing with weaver most likely means you either have a bad rotation or just have to practice more until you become fluid with your current rotation. Weaver is not a spec that you can master in a few hours or days. It is certainly not that one dimensional where all you do is just spam 2-3 between attunement swaps. It took me weeks of dragging my weaver to the test golem every day to become comfortable enough with it to start bringing it to raids. It took me at least another month to become comfortable playing my weaver in actual raids. Weaver takes time to learn how to play well; you gotta practice it until the rotation becomes embedded in your muscle memory. Set some time aside and take the time to learn weaver instead of asking Arena Net to dumb it down so you can take the easy way.

So... Firstly, you are right about aftercast animations and whatnot not making much difference.... Everywhere except Weaver.

Because Weaver's dps comes from multiple ticking damage AoE skills, and because the way to maximize those skill is to cast them on top of each other, and because of constant instant cast attunement swaps... The skill cap on Weaver is that last bit of tuning.

I was hanging out in a group I found on LFG, full of weavers practicing rotations. I got one of the guys who pulls 46k to coach me. He confirmed that I have the rotation totally down, and that all I need to master it, is to attunement swap sooner, and never miss a cast. I hit 30k pretty easy. Most people there practicing were hitting 20k. Exactly two people hit 46.

(as for judging my mirage numbers on golem... Calm down sparky, it's not perfectly geared... And on top of that, it really isn't that easy. If it were as easy as people say... I'd see every mirage I play with competing for my top dps spot. They don't. So.... I don't know what to tell you.)

@Attuned To Love.6579 said:

The nerf I'm actually proposing:

• I'm proposing adding a few seconds to things like lava font and pyroclastic blast. Maybe not cooldowns, just aftercast animation adjustments even. The aim being to break up whatever perfect rotation is hitting 46k.

The

buff

I'm actually proposing:

• Increase the base damage of eruption, plasma blast, and glyph of storms. Maybe not by much. The idea is to make the higher numbers shown in the rotation require less skill to attain.

So let me nutshell it down to a sentence.

I want to tune Weaver to be easier to be good at, and harder to be a God at.

Why on earth do you want to make the class faceroll... as you already mentioned ... even a bad weaver can pull at least some more or less okayish dps...

so why on earth would you longer change or whatever do to cooldowns, what makes the rotation just more awful for skilled players , just to make it easier for bad players to use their skills???

makes 100% no sense at all

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Daedraz.1650 said:

Weaver is not a spec that you can master in a few hours or days. It is certainly not that one dimensional where all you do is just spam 2-3 between attunement swaps.You are exaggerating stuff now. The rotation is not that hard. Too hard for 90% of the players? Maybe, but still way easier than condi engi. It took me some time at golem + 1-2 days pugging raids to get it down.Most of the dps depends on the chrono anyways. Really hard to cast meteor shower without quickness and dps drops a lot without alacrity.

well the rotation is mostly straight forward ... it's more about the timings and about the knowledge when to change your base rotation or delay stuff in actual raids ... or adapt your rotation to bosses ( especially fractals )

As for making the class face roll... Well... This is swatting the fly on a friend's forehead with a hatchet.

If only the most awesome players can hit the skill cap, it's too high. No, it should not be so easy that you don't have to think.

If the average player can't get the numbers up, even on an overtuned class... Then make it easier for the average guy.

What I imagine it should be is this.... Top dps from the most awesome players should hit 40k. That rotation performed with no aftercast canceling and waiting for cast animations, should be about 25k.

Which is close to what it is now.

Right now skill has too high a reward.And lack of skill has too high a punishment.

IE: too many bad weavers, and too few great ones, in a meta that makes Weaver hyper valuable. Hence tune the Weaver, make its value easier to obtain.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

" @BikeIsGone.8675 said:@"Attuned To Love.6579" said:it is not about the nerf of dps with that... this one is minor... might be around 2-4 % or something like that... but it will make rotations even less fluent.. thats the thing... it slows down the gameplay what is actually bad..

i mean a quick example how alacrity works

Now: Skill with 10 seconds cd -> with alacrity (33%) the new cd is 10seconds/1.33 -> around 7.5 secondsThen: Skill with 10 seconds cd -> with alacrity (25%) the new cd is 10seconds/1.25 -> 8 seconds

it might seem to be a very small change but it might actually have a huge impact to some rotations

fair point. But the fluidity of any rotation was already hindered by the fact that maintaining a 100% alacrity uptime wasn't achievable in the first place. (at least that was the case last i chekced). So if you now have less effectiveness but at the same time are guaranteed to have the boon, id say it's actually better for rotation fluidity.

Edit: so yes, its slower, but more stable gameplay"

• THEY FIXED IT!!!!

from another thread, on the changes to alacrity to be introduced in the new patch.

yay.

[Attuned To Love.6579]

For the cost of making it more cancer for good players ... and bad players will still just reach 30k on golem

[Agrippa.1693]

@"Tarasicodissa.7084" said:Many people present straight up LIES here trying to pass them off as facts. At start I thought this was a troll thread, but since some people seem to take it seriously, let's clear up the confusion.

First off, MAMA has indeed been soloed by meta staff weaver (possibly with little tweaks like sigils) played by the incredibly talented Roul [sC] as seen here -

But if anything, this solo proves how WEAK weaver is, not strong. People can casually solo MAMA on many classes without much problems, keeping up very strong DPS uptime which results in better overall DPS. With weaver on the other hand, even a seasoned veteran and one of the best ele players in the game was forced to play defensively and took over 2 hours with many wipes just to be able to get the solo done.

Anyone who reads the disclaimer below qT or SC benchmarks should also know that golem values differ greatly from actual numbers in raids themselves. That is why weaver is considered meta only for a handful of bosses, unlike for example renegade and holosmith who dominate nearly all of them thanks to being able to do competitive DPS as well as providing valuable party-wide buffs (and other utility like CC).

Let's not kid oursleves - on fights where weaver is meta, it is indeed extremely strong. No class can even get close to a properly played weaver on KC. Similar case in fractals, especially on big hitboxes like 99CM bosses. But to be also fair, playing weaver successfully takes a lot of talent and should be rewarded correspondingly. If you nerf weaver's ability to do damage, it will make it absolutely terrible on fights where it's currently not meta, and it will be barely worth it on the other ones (you already see many DHs in fractals and various DPS classes on KC).

All I can say is... please refrain from drawing conclusions and making suggestions about the game's balance if you don't know anything about it. Just because you discovered the golem training facility yesterday, it doesn't make you an expert on class balance.

I really had to laugh about this post, you start with accusing other ppl of straight up lying and only present one small part of anecdotal proof of that MAMA is soloable by a Weaver. It's just that, it only proves that! Nothing more, nothing less! ... then continuing your whole post with a highly suggestive story with no statistical data/analytics/numbers whatsoever. And to top it off you end your post blaming other ppl again about how they should not make unsupported suggestions ... bladiebladiebla. Something with pot and kettle, much? ...

OT: please everyone, learn to look at real benchmarked/statistical data/numbers/analytics. Also try to be as thorough as possible: one screenshot/video is not enough, it's just an n=1, nothing more, nothing less. And stories are just that as well: stories!Snowcrows doesnt just have benchmarks on Golem btw, but on all raid bosses. Again, backed up with benchmarked data! Not stories like: this one time ...

[Astralporing.1957]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:" @BikeIsGone.8675 said:@"Attuned To Love.6579" said:it is not about the nerf of dps with that... this one is minor... might be around 2-4 % or something like that... but it will make rotations even less fluent.. thats the thing... it slows down the gameplay what is actually bad..

i mean a quick example how alacrity works

Now: Skill with 10 seconds cd -> with alacrity (33%) the new cd is 10seconds/1.33 -> around 7.5 secondsThen: Skill with 10 seconds cd -> with alacrity (25%) the new cd is 10seconds/1.25 -> 8 seconds

it might seem to be a very small change but it might actually have a huge impact to some rotations

fair point. But the fluidity of any rotation was already hindered by the fact that maintaining a 100% alacrity uptime wasn't achievable in the first place. (at least that was the case last i chekced). So if you now have less effectiveness but at the same time are guaranteed to have the boon, id say it's actually better for rotation fluidity.

Edit: so yes, its slower, but more stable gameplay"

• THEY FIXED IT!!!!

from another thread, on the changes to alacrity to be introduced in the new patch.

yay.Fixed what? Apart from potentially mirage getting nerfed (depends on how they are going to do the changes on confusion which aren't announced yet, but we know are coming), and so one of the weaver competitors possibly dropping out of the race, i mean?

[BrokenGlass.9356]

The only thing allowing weavers to hit the 46k number is alacrity. The nerf to alacrity breaks the "edge of the knife" perfect timing required to hit 46k. So.... 46k Weaver is dead.

Because you aren't fighting for every last half second now... The rotation is easier to hit the skill cap.

So... It's easier to master... And it's less absurd when you do.

Perfect. And exactly what I wanted to see happen. I just never thought of doing it by changing alacrity. Feel dumb now that I see such a simple and elegant solution.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:The only thing allowing weavers to hit the 46k number is alacrity. The nerf to alacrity breaks the "edge of the knife" perfect timing required to hit 46k. So.... 46k Weaver is dead.

Because you aren't fighting for every last half second now... The rotation is easier to hit the skill cap.

So... It's easier to master... And it's less absurd when you do.

Perfect. And exactly what I wanted to see happen. I just never thought of doing it by changing alacrity. Feel dumb now that I see such a simple and elegant solution.This is not the first such rotation. And not the first time such a perfect rotation is broken. All the alacrity change will do is force a new, even more convoluted one. Like it happened every single time before.

So, you will likely end up with slightly lower dps, and a new rotation for it, in which it will be even more important to pull it off perfectly. I don't think this is what you've had in mind.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:The only thing allowing weavers to hit the 46k number is alacrity. The nerf to alacrity breaks the "edge of the knife" perfect timing required to hit 46k. So.... 46k Weaver is dead.

Because you aren't fighting for every last half second now... The rotation is easier to hit the skill cap.

So... It's easier to master... And it's less absurd when you do.

Perfect. And exactly what I wanted to see happen. I just never thought of doing it by changing alacrity. Feel dumb now that I see such a simple and elegant solution.

You keep repeating 46k weavers like it was easy to achieve. That number is even above benchmark . It's fairly hard to reach 43k+ on the golem and needs lots of grind to get 44-45k.46k without days of grind is only possible if you cheat on boons or use the 1mil golem.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:The only thing allowing weavers to hit the 46k number is alacrity. The nerf to alacrity breaks the "edge of the knife" perfect timing required to hit 46k. So.... 46k Weaver is dead.

Because you aren't fighting for every last half second now... The rotation is easier to hit the skill cap.

So... It's easier to master... And it's less absurd when you do.

Perfect. And exactly what I wanted to see happen. I just never thought of doing it by changing alacrity. Feel dumb now that I see such a simple and elegant solution.This is not the first such rotation. And not the first time such a perfect rotation is broken. All the alacrity change will do is force a new, even more convoluted one. Like it happened every single time before.

So, you will likely end up with slightly lower dps, and a new rotation for it, in which it will be even more important to pull it off perfectly. I don't think this is what you've had in mind.

Nah. Your imagining we can rearrange the same like 8skills inside weavers ability to swap. No, we have the best rotation already. How do I know this? There is no 'with alacrity rotation' and a 'without alacrity rotation'. You'd be right if we had some classes with different rotations entirely based on alacrity status. But we don't.

@Nephalem.8921 said:

You keep repeating 46k weavers like it was easy to achieve. That number is even above benchmark . It's fairly hard to reach 43k+ on the golem and needs lots of grind to get 44-45k.46k without days of grind is only possible if you cheat on boons or use the 1mil golem.

My point exactly! So glad you noticed it on page 3! The idea is, now... 46k Weaver CAN'T BE A THING... So your getting your knickers in a twist over language... When my using of that number as reference is in fact to force people to remember what it's capable of. See... Mirage hit 45k... And that was a bug. Knocked it down. Weaver hit 46k.... And look... It's getting knocked down.

Not saying every class needs the nerf hammer when they hit 40k. But... A- net has a history of nerfing the new hot meta thing. So.... Err.... Called it?

[Nephalem.8921]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:My point exactly! So glad you noticed it on page 3! The idea is, now... 46k Weaver CAN'T BE A THING... So your getting your knickers in a twist over language... When my using of that number as reference is in fact to force people to remember what it's capable of. See... Mirage hit 45k... And that was a bug. Knocked it down. Weaver hit 46k.... And look... It's getting knocked down.

Not saying every class needs the nerf hammer when they hit 40k. But... A- net has a history of nerfing the new hot meta thing. So.... Err.... Called it?

Thats not what i was saying. 46k weavers only exist in your imagination. The benchmark is lower, actual raid dps is lower.Weaver is not capable of reaching that high numbers especially in raids. Mirage was braindead easy to play and it actually reached 40k dps in raids on certain encounters.I've never seen a 40k+ dps weaver on cairn or mo. But i saw 40k+ dps mirages at cairn.Fixing high weaver numbers is not easy because its already ok on small hitbox targets. And kind of shit on moving targets.If they just nerf modifiers or damage small hitbox dps would be affected aswell. Weaver is only broken in pve on stationary big hitbox enemies. And in fractals because tempest defense exists.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

Nah. Your imagining we can rearrange the same like 8skills inside weavers ability to swap. No, we have the best rotation already. How do I know this? There is no 'with alacrity rotation' and a 'without alacrity rotation'. You'd be right if we had some classes with different rotations entirely based on alacrity status. But we don't.Any meta build assumes alacrity already. There's no point to make a meta build, specially made for optimizing damage, and then not assume standard meta boon set. That's why you don't see any. That's why generally there's no "non-alacrity" (or "non-quickness") rotation for any build, unless one of those boons messes up something badly (like it had happened once with thief).

And we don't "have the best rotation already". I mean yes, we do - for the current balance situation. But it's not the first rotation, and not the last one. It's only best until the environment changes. And if i learned one thing watching the ele rotation evolution, it's that after every change, each new rotation ends up more convoluted than the previous one.

[Zenith.7301]

Nerf staff, make sword/dagger the top ele DPS build and the leader in DPS by 1-2k DPS.

There is absolutely no reason why a class with a ranged weapon that also has the best aoe toolkit in the game should be doing more single target DPS than other specs that rely on melee weapons.

It's just dumb. Weaver isn't just monstrous for large hitbox; it's incredibly useful on target swaps because it can immediately reach targets without peeling off the boss or losing group buffs which all the other melee specs need to do.

The one problem is that this will make staff daredevil the only meta staff usage in the game, but whatever. I'd rather they find more uses for staves through rebalancing melee cleave (so melee weapon cleave is nerfed, but they do more single target DPS, and ranged weapons cleave but do less single target in exchange).

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

Nah. Your imagining we can rearrange the same like 8skills inside weavers ability to swap. No, we have the best rotation already. How do I know this? There is no 'with alacrity rotation' and a 'without alacrity rotation'. You'd be right if we had some classes with different rotations entirely based on alacrity status. But we don't.Any meta build assumes alacrity already. There's no point to make a meta build, specially made for optimizing damage, and then

not

assume standard meta boon set. That's why you don't see any. That's why generally there's no "non-alacrity" (or "non-quickness") rotation for any build, unless one of those boons messes up something badly (like it had happened once with thief).

And we don't "have the best rotation already". I mean yes, we do - for the

current

balance situation. But it's not the first rotation, and not the last one. It's only best until the environment changes. And if i learned one thing watching the ele rotation evolution, it's that after every change, each new rotation ends up more convoluted than the previous one.

Assuming the alacrity change is the only change to ele.... Which is unlikely, but it's all we know about at the moment.... The the rotation won't change. I'd they mess around with other things... It will.

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:My point exactly! So glad you noticed it on page 3! The idea is, now... 46k Weaver CAN'T BE A THING... So your getting your knickers in a twist over language... When my using of that number as reference is in fact to force people to remember what it's capable of. See... Mirage hit 45k... And that was a bug. Knocked it down. Weaver hit 46k.... And look... It's getting knocked down.

Not saying every class needs the nerf hammer when they hit 40k. But... A- net has a history of nerfing the new hot meta thing. So.... Err....

Called it?

Thats not what i was saying. 46k weavers only exist in your imagination. The benchmark is lower, actual raid dps is lower.Weaver is not capable of reaching that high numbers especially in raids. Mirage was braindead easy to play and it actually reached 40k dps in raids on certain encounters.I've never seen a 40k+ dps weaver on cairn or mo. But i saw 40k+ dps mirages at cairn.Fixing high weaver numbers is not easy because its already ok on small hitbox targets. And kind of kitten on moving targets.If they just nerf modifiers or damage small hitbox dps would be affected aswell. Weaver is only broken in pve on stationary big hitbox enemies. And in fractals because tempest defense exists.

Yes. It's vocabulary. It's not purely literal. The snowcrows number is like 45.6, with some elementary school rounding, to add to the argument that Weaver is OP.... Boom. 46k Weaver is born. But if that bothers you we can call it the 45k Weaver. That doesn't sound much better.

Honestly, after playing it, most people here that have argued against me have a point. I never said theres no dps variance. I never said they're the best thing for ever boss. They are, currently overturned in regards to player ability.

The alacrity changes fix this. (or theoretically should)

[Bread.7516]

It's not really that OP, youre using a golem benchmark to prove your point which is not the most accurate evidence.

Try looking at raidar instead. Just off the top of my head i pulled the MO fight (the most stationary "literally dps golem" fight) as an extreme example because this is just a "feel good" fight in the middle of your raid runs to show off your dps.https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17172Power weaver 99th percentile floats <33k
while condi DD >31k and mirage <31k

Random qT weaver kill ranging from 34k to <36khttps://dps.report/Z3RF-20171004-214237_mo

I remember pulling 33k on a dps condi berserker with 250ms latency (more latency = less dps). Someone else could probably pull off a higher number

Is it top tier? sure.Is it a big deal? not really, maybe few tweaks here and there, doesn't really matter much.

[Belorn.2659]

People like to ignore that we now days we can see what players actually bring to raid and fractal and have real results on the success and failure of each profession. Raidar has the global stats page, and guilds such as snow crash gives target numbers for each encounter. Weaver is not, NOT, optimal professional for everything. Not even close. Not even on average, that is, bringing weavers as default is a bad idea when raiding.

And if someone is still not convinced, just try it. Go and create a full clear raid group with only weaver as dps. It will be slower than the average group, higher failure rate, higher rate of downed and dead players, higher risk to fail mechanics, higher number of received damage.

The keep construct is a golem created by xera. It works like a test golem. It stand still like a test golem. It has similar benchmarks as the test golem. Weaver is optimal against golems. Mathias is not a golem. he don't work like a test golem. He don't stand still like a golem. He don't share benchmark with the test golem. Weaver is not optimal against non-golems.

Here is a challange: Do 46k dps as weaver on all raid bosses. Go ahead, try it. It will make reddit and gw2 forum news are a world first! The average dps on Mathias for power weaver is 8,060 dps so you only have to carry the dps of 5 players. Should be easy, right?

[Nephalem.8921]

@Zenith.7301 said:Nerf staff, make sword/dagger the top ele DPS build and the leader in DPS by 1-2k DPS.

There is absolutely no reason why a class with a ranged weapon that also has the best aoe toolkit in the game should be doing more single target DPS than other specs that rely on melee weapons.

It's just dumb. Weaver isn't just monstrous for large hitbox; it's incredibly useful on target swaps because it can immediately reach targets without peeling off the boss or losing group buffs which all the other melee specs need to do.

The one problem is that this will make staff daredevil the only meta staff usage in the game, but whatever. I'd rather they find more uses for staves through rebalancing melee cleave (so melee weapon cleave is nerfed, but they do more single target DPS, and ranged weapons cleave but do less single target in exchange).

You want to make the easier weapon stronger. Sword doesn't rely on conjures or long channels. If you buff sword to be stronger than staff and top dps you would just run weavers everywhere because it doesn't have drawbacks like staff has.That would be the old tempest problem all over again. Currently weaver has a big stationary hitbox niche. Your solution would make weaver preferable almost everywhere.

[Razor.6392]

The thing about weaver is that all it brings is damage, and that is subject to a perfect, uninterrupted rotation which is unrealistic.

If you nerf it too much to the point where they barely bring more dps compared to a class that is not only safer and easier to play but also has team utility, then why would anyone play weaver anymore? So that they can do 1-3k more dps in ideal circumstances? Literally NO ONE would use weaver.

Please, armchair balancing wannabe devs, let weaver be.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Razor.6392 said:The thing about weaver is that all it brings is damage, and that is subject to a perfect, uninterrupted rotation which is unrealistic.

If you nerf it too much to the point where they barely bring more dps compared to a class that is not only safer and easier to play but also has team utility, then why would anyone play weaver anymore? So that they can do 1-3k more dps in ideal circumstances? Literally NO ONE would use weaver.

Please, armchair balancing wannabe devs, let weaver be.

So we've hit the point where NOBODY IS READING before commenting.

ALL of the concerns above have been responded to on pages before.

Also... I've already moved tone from the snarky-funny-flippant in my initial postings to more serious and analytical.

First: As you correctly point out my status as an armchair developer, I'd ask you: considering my level of ability to make any changes is zero... Why do you care?

Secondly: if you aren't willing to read even just a quick scroll up the page to see that YOU ARE NOW ARGUING AGAINST THE OPEN AIR... Then perhaps your aren't qualified to be the voice of reason. Huh?

I don't want them to change anything anymore.

The nerf to alacrity will be exactly the kind of thing I was calling for.

So, by Tuesday I predict balance.

Gawd. You don't get points for slapping down strangers on the Internet. It just makes you look like a snarky kitten.

So... Before the next guy posts on this overly bloated, overly argued, and now (thanks to the incoming changes) completely pointless thread, take a second and check thyself

[Razor.6392]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Razor.6392 said:The thing about weaver is that all it brings is damage, and that is subject to a perfect, uninterrupted rotation which is unrealistic.

If you nerf it too much to the point where they barely bring more dps compared to a class that is not only safer and easier to play but also has team utility, then why would anyone play weaver anymore? So that they can do 1-3k more dps in ideal circumstances? Literally NO ONE would use weaver.

Please, armchair balancing wannabe devs, let weaver be.

So we've hit the point where NOBODY IS READING before commenting.

ALL of the concerns above have been responded to on pages before.

Also... I've already moved tone from the snarky-funny-flippant in my initial postings to more serious and analytical.

First: As you correctly point out my status as an armchair developer, I'd ask you: considering my level of ability to make any changes is zero... Why do you care?

Secondly: if you aren't willing to read even just a quick scroll up the page to see that YOU ARE NOW ARGUING AGAINST THE OPEN AIR... Then perhaps your aren't qualified to be the voice of reason. Huh?

I don't want them to change anything anymore.

The nerf to alacrity will be exactly the kind of thing I was calling for.

So, by Tuesday I predict balance.

Gawd. You don't get points for slapping down strangers on the Internet. It just makes you look like a snarky kitten.

So... Before the next guy posts on this overly bloated, overly argued, and now (thanks to the incoming changes) completely pointless thread, take a second and check thyself

I read this, days ago. I didn't reply then because reasons, so now I went straight for it.

[Zenith.7301]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Zenith.7301" said:Nerf staff, make sword/dagger the top ele DPS build and the leader in DPS by 1-2k DPS.

There is absolutely no reason why a class with a ranged weapon that also has the best aoe toolkit in the game should be doing more single target DPS than other specs that rely on melee weapons.

It's just dumb. Weaver isn't just monstrous for large hitbox; it's incredibly useful on target swaps because it can immediately reach targets without peeling off the boss or losing group buffs which all the other melee specs need to do.

The one problem is that this will make staff daredevil the only meta staff usage in the game, but whatever. I'd rather they find more uses for staves through rebalancing melee cleave (so melee weapon cleave is nerfed, but they do more single target DPS, and ranged weapons cleave but do less single target in exchange).

You want to make the easier weapon stronger. Sword doesn't rely on conjures or long channels. If you buff sword to be stronger than staff and top dps you would just run weavers everywhere because it doesn't have drawbacks like staff has.That would be the old tempest problem all over again. Currently weaver has a big stationary hitbox niche. Your solution would make weaver preferable almost everywhere.

Listen, balance is not subject to difficulty. Otherwise an engineer would be king supreme DPS, the optimal build for every class would involve the most convoluted usage of utilities, and necromancer would rot in balance hell since it has no complex rotation.

Your balance paradigm is not one I'm going to accept, period. You want to stroke your ego with "hurr durr I got the skillz", feel free to brag about it, but the game cannot be held hostage in design to validate those views.

Ele would trade away aoe and range for the melee weapon, and as I already said, their large hitbox dps would be nerfed and they'd at best lead by 1-2k DPS instead of the significantly more they already do.

You as a class are not entitled to sit at the top simply because you won the lottery of most convoluted relevant mechanics. Otherwise every other class deserves an equal choice of convoluted gameplay for similar payoff since the implication is that ele will reign supreme until other classes receive complete mechanics overhauls, which isn't happening.

[dontlook.1823]

@Zenith.7301 said:Nerf staff, make sword/dagger the top ele DPS build and the leader in DPS by 1-2k DPS.

There is absolutely no reason why a class with a ranged weapon that also has the best aoe toolkit in the game should be doing more single target DPS than other specs that rely on melee weapons.

It's just dumb. Weaver isn't just monstrous for large hitbox; it's incredibly useful on target swaps because it can immediately reach targets without peeling off the boss or losing group buffs which all the other melee specs need to do.

The one problem is that this will make staff daredevil the only meta staff usage in the game, but whatever. I'd rather they find more uses for staves through rebalancing melee cleave (so melee weapon cleave is nerfed, but they do more single target DPS, and ranged weapons cleave but do less single target in exchange).

Agree 100%

[Linken.6345]

@Razor.6392 said:

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:

@Razor.6392 said:The thing about weaver is that all it brings is damage, and that is subject to a perfect, uninterrupted rotation which is unrealistic.

If you nerf it too much to the point where they barely bring more dps compared to a class that is not only safer and easier to play but also has team utility, then why would anyone play weaver anymore? So that they can do 1-3k more dps in ideal circumstances? Literally NO ONE would use weaver.

Please, armchair balancing wannabe devs, let weaver be.

So we've hit the point where NOBODY IS READING before commenting.

ALL of the concerns above have been responded to on pages before.

Also... I've already moved tone from the snarky-funny-flippant in my initial postings to more serious and analytical.

First: As you correctly point out my status as an armchair developer, I'd ask you: considering my level of ability to make any changes is zero... Why do you care?

Secondly: if you aren't willing to read even just a quick scroll up the page to see that YOU ARE NOW ARGUING AGAINST THE OPEN AIR... Then perhaps your aren't qualified to be the voice of reason. Huh?

I don't want them to change anything anymore.

The nerf to alacrity will be exactly the kind of thing I was calling for.

So, by Tuesday I predict balance.

Gawd. You don't get points for slapping down strangers on the Internet. It just makes you look like a snarky kitten.

So... Before the next guy posts on this overly bloated, overly argued, and now (thanks to the incoming changes) completely pointless thread, take a second and check thyself

I read this, days ago. I didn't reply then because reasons, so now I went straight for it.

If you read it days ago then you would have seen while skimming through the thread before posting this that everything you said have already been said.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:Nerf staff, make sword/dagger the top ele DPS build and the leader in DPS by 1-2k DPS.

There is absolutely no reason why a class with a ranged weapon that also has the best aoe toolkit in the game should be doing more single target DPS than other specs that rely on melee weapons.

It's just dumb. Weaver isn't just monstrous for large hitbox; it's incredibly useful on target swaps because it can immediately reach targets without peeling off the boss or losing group buffs which all the other melee specs need to do.

The one problem is that this will make staff daredevil the only meta staff usage in the game, but whatever. I'd rather they find more uses for staves through rebalancing melee cleave (so melee weapon cleave is nerfed, but they do more single target DPS, and ranged weapons cleave but do less single target in exchange).

You want to make the easier weapon stronger. Sword doesn't rely on conjures or long channels. If you buff sword to be stronger than staff and top dps you would just run weavers everywhere because it doesn't have drawbacks like staff has.That would be the old tempest problem all over again. Currently weaver has a big stationary hitbox niche. Your solution would make weaver preferable almost everywhere.

Listen, balance is not subject to difficulty. Otherwise an engineer would be king supreme DPS, the optimal build for every class would involve the most convoluted usage of utilities, and necromancer would rot in balance hell since it has no complex rotation.

Your balance paradigm is not one I'm going to accept, period. You want to stroke your ego with "hurr durr I got the skillz", feel free to brag about it, but the game cannot be held hostage in design to validate those views.

Ele would trade away aoe and range for the melee weapon, and as I already said, their large hitbox dps would be nerfed and they'd at best lead by 1-2k DPS instead of the significantly more they already do.

You as a class are not entitled to sit at the top simply because you won the lottery of most convoluted relevant mechanics. Otherwise every other class deserves an equal choice of convoluted gameplay for similar payoff since the implication is that ele will reign supreme until other classes receive complete mechanics overhauls, which isn't happening.

I completely agree with this, I also find it a bit weird that the rotation of that of a weaver is (pretty much) always called one of the most difficult ones, while imo that would always be a perceptional thing, right? Pressing a lot of different buttons in a short time, can be very difficult for Person A, but adding pauses at the right moment, might be even worse, in the perception of person B. Right? Or evading in your rotation might be the absolute pinnacle in the eyes of person C? While having to know when something hits exactly 900 range in order for you to hit a certain skill, might be terrifying for person D (you see what I did there :D), while at the same time person A loves to do such things ... It's all perception, imo!