Thief need a REWORK like memser

[will de grijze jager.6594]

Thief has none of these extreme design flaws. It has variety flaws in which everything it has is designed around pure dps, but how the class functions is fine. They just need to do something support wise with the next elite spec instead of going a different dps route. But they will probably give them a condi dps spec instead.

Ow great give the 1 class that can spam a support build or condi build. Before they do that they need to solve the spam gameplay. You know how strong a interup is right. on all the classes interups are on cc and thief can spam this. I would be okay wiht how the thief is if they didn't have like interups and get in get out skills on spam access. You can say if they spam it theyw ill die i have seen it in plat that by juist spamming interups they kill somone because of a trait. The trait has been nerf tnx god, but still see theif killing people wiht spamming even in top tier matches. I have a lot of friend that play theif and are even thinking how it is now is not skillfull, but more spamming. A right stap would be if they chance the utility of some weapons skills and make them in to utility skills they need a cd like interups and so on.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:You know how strong a interup is right. on all the classes interups are on cc and thief can spam this. I would be okay wiht how the thief is if they didn't have like interups and get in get out skills on spam access. You can say if they spam it theyw ill die i have seen it in plat that by juist spamming interups they kill somone because of a trait.

So now there are two issues...

1. Headshot spam. Honestly, you see "high-tier" players die to a traited Headshot spam alone? And Headshot is the ONE spammable interrupt a Thief has, and it's limited to offhand Pistol. Likewise, Impacting Disruption is a single trait in an elite specialization. If anything, it's a poorly designed trait, not a design flaw in the Thief mechanics.
2. "Get in, get out" spam. Only a Sword Thief has access to this. And what do you suggest the Thief do in order to survive? It doesn't have enough defenses to "face-tank" anyone other than another Thief. The absolute worst points of engagement for a Thief are its "ingress" and "egress" phases. The Sword allows the Thief to bypass these. Without it, the Thief is a sitting duck. D/P has other methods to deal with them. There's a reason you don't see D/D Thieves much.

In other words, the Thief NEEDS to be able to spam certain skills in order to both survive and be effective in combat. It's either that or avoid combat all together. The only other alternative is to give the Thief a LOT more damage output for "assassination" attempts. That is to make the Thief a YOLO kamikaze style... someone would die... there would be no escaping or running away.

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:A right stap would be if they chance the utility of some weapons skills and make them in to utility skills they need a cd like interups and so on.

The main problem with that is the Thief is already heavily reliant on what utilities it already has. Some utilities are nearly as compulsory as the Shortbow in PvP. For example, Withdraw, Roll for Initiative, and Shadowstep.

Now, I am all in favor of giving the Thief more versatility. I've liked the idea of making Thief utilities act like the Engineer's tool belt. Heck, make the Shortbow a utility. It would actually improve the profession.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:A right stap would be if they chance the utility of some weapons skills and make them in to utility skills they need a cd like interups and so on.

The main problem with that is the Thief is already heavily reliant on what utilities it already has. Some utilities are nearly as compulsory as the Shortbow in PvP. For example, Withdraw, Roll for Initiative, and Shadowstep.

Now, I am all in favor of giving the Thief more versatility. I've liked the idea of making Thief utilities act like the Engineer's tool belt. Heck, make the Shortbow a utility. It would actually improve the profession.

You are proving my point for me.

[zipain.5276]

Imagine if thief was not 1 button spamm in all builds :open_mouth:

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@zipain.5276 said:Imagine if thief was not 1 button spamm in all builds :open_mouth:

haha don't say strange thing maybe anet will think it is a smart plan and then thief need to learn to play build that has more buttens then 1 XD

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Kageseigi.2150I don't think CnD needs to be OOC stealth/stealth stacking access increased to match D/P. Stealth, in particular, stacked stealth, is one of the biggest bases for keeping the profession weak and diversity poor, and stacked stealth into big damage is one of the most infuriating and frustrating things to play against in the game.

They'd really need to offset this by reworking most weapon skills. Part of the problem with thief is that its safest kit is almost always the best one such that if a weapon is not negating damage while dealing damage, it's seen as too inefficient on initiative.

I.E., CnD is bad because it's risky and prone to counter-attack, is inconsistent because it depends on generating a hit, has low stealth/damage negation, AND aside from a single-heartseeker/field finish BP, it's strictly the least-initiative-efficient means of gaining stealth possible on the thief. Death Blossom is a bad skill because it's initiative hungry and aside from a pure condi build, deals no damage and is a punishable evade.

S/D, D/P, and Staff are seen as potent weapons because both damage + defense are often in the same skill rotation/activation while also having necessary utility to function as a whole.

We're no longer in a game-state where major combos and abilities/cooldowns can be baited out with one well-timed Death Blossom; right now, everyone runs around dealing huge damage while being immune to hits half the time due to powercreeped offenses and defenses both resulting in smaller windows of opportunity to punish. The initiative system as a whole does not scale well with such power creep, and as such, leaves for massive disparities between weapons.

To make the thief more stable as a profession, the other professions need more powercreep, or the thief weapons need massive reworks to not only include necessary utility and appropriate risk/reward for all kits as well as needing refined initiative costs and skill reworks to separate damage from defense/utility as to make spammy play less viable while not outright removing the option of it when it calls for it (I.E., dodge/blind/etc. Mirror Blade, Mind Wrack, and iBerserker from mesmer, or Shield Bash, Bull's Charge, Cyclone Axe, and Eviscerate from a warrior) over the course of a fight. In the case of skills like DB or BP, this takes a few casts to negate with just these tools while dealing no damage in return, burning initiative.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:if a weapon is not negating damage while dealing damage, it's seen as too inefficient on initiative....We're no longer in a game-state where major combos and abilities/cooldowns can be baited out with one well-timed Death Blossom; right now, everyone runs around dealing huge damage while being immune to hits half the time due to powercreeped offenses and defenses both resulting in smaller windows of opportunity to punish.

Indeed, I've been thinking about something similar. You're the most knowledgeable player I know on these forums, and you've been able to explain the ramifications of possible changes in detail in the past. So please tell me your thought on these two possible changes, as crazy as they may seem.

---

A. One issue the Thief has is sustain in a fight. As you said, you can't just bait and negate skills with a well-timed Death Blossom. And other professions have a lot of immunities while still being able to fight. So in order to increase the sustainability of the Thief in combat without giving them passive immunities of the others, consider the following.

Remove evades from weapon skills. Death Blossom, Flanking Strike, etc. would no longer grant the ability for the Thief to deal damage while receiving none. To further the concept, remove all abilities for the Thief to do damage while dodging/evading (Lotus Training, Bounding Dodger). This would keep the Thief "honest" by making itself vulnerable to damage while inflicting damage. So no more Death Blossom/Flanking Strike spam that can stack conditions or cause high damage while remaining relatively safe.

In return, give the Thief (near-)permanent dodge roll capability. When a Thief sees a big attack coming, it will be able to avoid it. If the Thief is in the middle of an attack, but sees it's about to get hit, it can cancel the attack by dodging. If the Thief gets caught in an AoE, it will be able to dodge until the AoE ends. If the Thief gets targeted by a long channeled attack, it will be able to dodge through it without becoming defenseless afterward. If an enemy goes immune (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone), the Thief can wait it out without withdrawing. While the Thief would be able to survive all of these, it would have to do so without doing any damage to the target. It's the basic equivalent of hiding in Stealth, though in plain sight.

On-dodge traits would have to be adjusted, of course. On-evade traits also. The Daredevil's 3rd dodge mechanic could be replaced with something that's actually unique to the specialization. Its dodge traits would also need some changes. The Acrobatics line could be upgraded.

If actual unlimited dodging is too imbalanced, it could be limited. One possible limiter is to add short vulnerable windows after a dodge (I'd prefer not to). Another would be to simply lower the amount of endurance per dodge (say 15 with constant regeneration or 10 with regeneration frozen while dodging). Or the endurance meter could mimic an "overheating" mechanic like how many shooting games will allow a gun to constantly shoot until it overheats, and if it does overheat, then it is useless until it cools down, which punishes overuse.

The end result would be to give the Thief much more sustainability in fights, but it would be gained by forcing active and non-offensive defenses. It would allow the Thief to survive longer in the middle of a fight, though it would lessen its windows of opportunity to attack. It would also separate defensive sustainability from offensive capability by divorcing evasion from initiative. It would give the Thief the ability to better sustain 1v1 duels on point, yet it would do so by extending the fights by requiring patience and timing which is usually detrimental to a Thief in Conquest. And it would allow the Thief to enter and survive in the middle of an AoE-heavy team fight while also maintaining the AoE's ability to deter the Thief from transitioning from defense to offense.

---

B. While much simpler and only minor compared to the first concept (and completely separate from it), and also akin to what I've suggested in the past, this change would be made to give the Thief more windows of opportunity to attack in AoE-heavy fights.

Just as a dodge roll/evasion "disarms" many traps, allow the Thief to gain immunity to a duration AoE by dodging/evading through it. If a pulse of that AoE hits the Thief before immunity is gained, then there can be no immunity for that AoE. But if a Thief successfully evades the initial pulse, then no further pulses of that AoE will affect the Thief.

In this, the Thief will be able to temporarily enter and engage in melee with targets who would normally be protected by AoE's, especially on small points which can be 90% covered by many AoE's. This would compel the opponents to use defensive AoE skills during an engagement instead of before contact, and hiding behind (inside) them.

---

I'm sure there are many reasons to these changes would cause issues, though I'm not sure what the solution is really. Especially since PvE, PvP, and WvW must all be considered. Is there a solution at all that can be done until WvW and PvP stats are normalized?

While these changes would definitely alter the way the Thief is played, I do like the idea of keeping the Thief an active style. I don't like the idea of passive procs. Even though dodging equals immunity, it must be deliberately activated at the proper time.

I still don't see the advantage that the Thief has in combat, though, especially in PvP and on point. It still feels like it is too easily downed, but does too little damage in relation to its sustainability. I'm certainly no great Thief, though most of the time, it feels like my best option is to run away from a fight than to run towards one. Maybe I should stop running DA/CS/T and being so aggressive.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The problem with upping thief sustain is it doesn't address its ability to reset fights on a number of its builds. This is potent and important to keep in mind.

Giving thief baseline excess dodges or hit negation makes it overpowered given its mobility and fight resetting potential in tandem with stealth, which is a major part of its identity and playstyle. It'd also demand removing uniqueness and would homogenize various kits as a consequence. Hit negation comes in the form of dodges, interrupts, and blinds so it'd demand a full rework to most kit identities as well as SA to make such a change.

The thief is designed, in the words of ANet's own developers, not to fight on-point. If you want to do that, you should reroll to another profession. You might as well be asking for a hyper-mobile guardian. Further, in the case of sPvP, dodges are particularly strong because they count for point capture while various immunities currently do not. Mirage cloak is unique in this aspect and is complained about often because of it.

If the identity of the thief is too easily-replaced by other professions or the nature of applying +1 too difficult due to excessive sustain, that's a bigger issue with other professions more than anything, which is also a cause for why only builds with offense during defense to promote initiative efficiency are currently used; cooldown powercreep and the likes does not affect the thief.

In WvW where the stats can be optimized better to make more niche builds more effective and the thief is better-able to 1v1, things are a bit different.I run DA/CS/Tr D/D and rarely have issues with most matchups; only warrior provides a problem, and that is more of a D/D-specific issue than one of the thief itself.

[bq pd.2148]

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:A. One issue the Thief has is sustain in a fight. As you said, you can't just bait and negate skills with a well-timed Death Blossom. And other professions have a lot of immunities while still being able to fight. So in order to increase the sustainability of the Thief in combat without giving them passive immunities of the others, consider the following.

Remove evades from weapon skills. Death Blossom, Flanking Strike, etc. would no longer grant the ability for the Thief to deal damage while receiving none. To further the concept, remove all abilities for the Thief to do damage while dodging/evading (Lotus Training, Bounding Dodger). This would keep the Thief "honest" by making itself vulnerable to damage while inflicting damage. So no more Death Blossom/Flanking Strike spam that can stack conditions or cause high damage while remaining relatively safe.

In return, give the Thief (near-)permanent dodge roll capability. When a Thief sees a big attack coming, it will be able to avoid it. If the Thief is in the middle of an attack, but sees it's about to get hit, it can cancel the attack by dodging. If the Thief gets caught in an AoE, it will be able to dodge until the AoE ends. If the Thief gets targeted by a long channeled attack, it will be able to dodge through it without becoming defenseless afterward. If an enemy goes immune (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone), the Thief can wait it out without withdrawing. While the Thief would be able to survive all of these, it would have to do so without doing any damage to the target. It's the basic equivalent of hiding in Stealth, though in plain sight.

On-dodge traits would have to be adjusted, of course. On-evade traits also. The Daredevil's 3rd dodge mechanic could be replaced with something that's actually unique to the specialization. Its dodge traits would also need some changes. The Acrobatics line could be upgraded.

lets compare perma evade with perma stealth as you said it is equivalent.

• stealth has still the bonus that you can attack without tell from it, some skills show animation before hit many dont.
• stealth will let you retreat without a long chase.
• dodging has the advantage that you avoid incoming hits, this you do not have in stealth - i kill many thieves in stealth.
• dodge spamming has further the advantage that people wont stop 'wasting' their skills as there is no define window to attack. many stop attacking if the thief goes stealth as it is either of short duration or you know it will be a projectile that you can avoid when cast or a backstab that you can avoid moving.
• being able to cancel anything into a dodge would be really OP. currently movement skills on any class can only be canceled with weapon swap wich has a cd and therefor they give you a perfect opportunity to attack. with that change you have no window were you can be attacked. and here your analogy with stealth also doesnt work, i cannot midcast without being interruptable enter stealth at anytime as often as i want to. i can do that with blinding powder and with traited steal if not DE, both has a CD. even tho stealth midcast woulnt avoid a hit.

as stated now quite often i prefer fighting a perma stealth thief then a perma evade one as there are ways to counterplay stealth stacking as most skills that grant stealth can be interruped or are an attack that would reveal on hit. further while stealthed the thief is still vulnerable, near perma evade spamming thief has nearly no windows you can attack them so you kind of have to spamm to kill them aswell ( sure you can abuse aftercast etc. but that is way harder then killing a stealthed thief)

If actual unlimited dodging is too imbalanced, it could be limited. One possible limiter is to add short vulnerable windows after a dodge (I'd prefer not to). Another would be to simply lower the amount of endurance per dodge (say 15 with constant regeneration or 10 with regeneration frozen while dodging). Or the endurance meter could mimic an "overheating" mechanic like how many shooting games will allow a gun to constantly shoot until it overheats, and if it does overheat, then it is useless until it cools down, which punishes overuse.

if the thief is vulnerable outside dodging then you would still need near perma evade to endure till there is a little window of opportunity. full permanent evade will be too strong and result in unkillable thieves, while those punish mechanics will make the thief lose against any decent opponent.its really hard to balance around an all or nothing mechanic like evade, evades should be part of the thieves repertoire but they should not be the only defensive tool.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@DeceiverX.8361@MUDse.7623

Thank you both for the insight. Indeed, it seems the Thief is in a tough place in PvP. Hopefully, the devs will change their mind... or make certain changes in the Thief's favor.

As much as the stealthy and evasive nature give the Thief a mystique, what really keeps me from playing a different profession is the initiative system. Skills based on cooldown naturally give way too much of an MMO vibe. Maybe that's fine for PvE settings or party-based, strategy games (Dragon's Age: Origins), but it feels very limiting for PvP combat. At least, it seems so to me... which is definitely a matter of personal taste.

Thank you, again :-)

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

The problem then is you're gonna see a rogue class with a much higher survivability so he can actually stay in fights. If you haven't played thief yet, do so. You'll learn that you absolutely cannot afford to drag a fight out for too long. You don't have the same level of sustain as other classes. You have the lowest health pool along with ele and I think guardian. You don't have access to a lot of boons. You only have two abilities for aegis, one in each elite with one being a very specific case. And do to your burst nature, your initiative will gradually become lower as the fight goes on because you're sucking it up more quickly than it regenerates. I understand that people don't like how a thief is able to run from any fight, but forcing us to stay in it would cause more headache with what ever Anet comes up with.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

The problem then is you're gonna see a rogue class with a much higher survivability so he can actually stay in fights. If you haven't played thief yet, do so. You'll learn that you absolutely cannot afford to drag a fight out for too long. You don't have the same level of sustain as other classes. You have the lowest health pool along with ele and I think guardian. You don't have access to a lot of boons. You only have two abilities for aegis, one in each elite with one being a very specific case. And do to your burst nature, your initiative will gradually become lower as the fight goes on because you're sucking it up more quickly than it regenerates. I understand that people don't like how a thief is able to run from any fight, but forcing us to stay in it would cause more headache with what ever Anet comes up with.

If you do a lot of damage like thief or mesmer you shouldn't even be allowed to have so much survivability. Any other class sacrific sustain for damage. Not Thief or Mesmer that is why people have a problem with those 2 classes.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

The problem then is you're gonna see a rogue class with a much higher survivability so he can actually stay in fights. If you haven't played thief yet, do so. You'll learn that you absolutely cannot afford to drag a fight out for too long. You don't have the same level of sustain as other classes. You have the lowest health pool along with ele and I think guardian. You don't have access to a lot of boons. You only have two abilities for aegis, one in each elite with one being a very specific case. And do to your burst nature, your initiative will gradually become lower as the fight goes on because you're sucking it up more quickly than it regenerates. I understand that people don't like how a thief is able to run from any fight, but forcing us to stay in it would cause more headache with what ever Anet comes up with.

If you do a lot of damage like thief or mesmer you shouldn't even be allowed to have so much survivability. Any other class sacrific sustain for damage. Not Thief or Mesmer that is why people have a problem with those 2 classes.

No, that's with the players knowing what they are doing. I spent a loooooot of matches and WvW fights dying till I learned how to be an evasive, predicting, juking, and slippery bastard. But that takes more active effort than simply waiting for a passive or pushing a button. Thief is one of the harder classes to play, and is rewarded so. Mesmer is also fairly difficult to play and their players should be recognized for it.

My problem with mesmer is they do too much and have been proven to be great at it all more recently. If they backed off of thief's territory, or they get that sort of output while being more difficult to play, I'd be perfectly alright with it.

The only other class I complained about was Reaper back in HoTs release because he was fucking unkillable.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

No, that's with the players knowing what they are doing. I spent a loooooot of matches and WvW fights dying till I learned how to be an evasive, predicting, juking, and slippery kitten. But that takes more active effort than simply waiting for a passive or pushing a button.

My problem with mesmer is they do too much and have been proven to be great at it all more recently.

The only other class I complained about was Reaper back in HoTs release because he was kitten unkillable.

Thief before hot was fine they had a counter and stuff but now they dont'. Don't let me start on mesmer. The complain i have about thief is the same for mesmer but times 10.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

No, that's with the players knowing what they are doing. I spent a loooooot of matches and WvW fights dying till I learned how to be an evasive, predicting, juking, and slippery kitten. But that takes more active effort than simply waiting for a passive or pushing a button.

My problem with mesmer is they do too much and have been proven to be great at it all more recently.

The only other class I complained about was Reaper back in HoTs release because he was kitten unkillable.

Thief before hot was fine they had a counter and stuff but now they dont'. Don't let me start on mesmer. The complain i have about thief is the same for mesmer but times 10.

So... They keep killing me, I don't want to compete with them. Please nerf? I got 25 stacks of tilt too man, but I don't often complain about other specs.

PS, we do have counters like everyone else. They just don't delete us anymore for using them. You still need some skill to kill a thief who's equal to you or better. We also have a blatantly obvious weakness.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

So... They keep killing me, I don't want to compete with them. Please nerf? I got 25 stacks of tilt too man, but I don't often complain about other specs.

PS, we do have counters like everyone else. They just don't delete us anymore for using them. You still need some skill to kill a thief who's equal to you or better. We also have a blatantly obvious weakness.Ow you haven't read the whole post because i have said that i kill them most of the time(It is still no fun to fight 1). No i see a problem with thief and mesmer that is not healthy for the game. If you do a lot of damage you need to sacrific sustain. That is what every class does. Thief and mesmer doesn't have this. Mesmer more then theif. It is not even a fun fight agianst them.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

So... They keep killing me, I don't want to compete with them. Please nerf? I got 25 stacks of tilt too man, but I don't often complain about other specs.

PS, we do have counters like everyone else. They just don't delete us anymore for using them. You still need some skill to kill a thief who's equal to you or better. We also have a blatantly obvious weakness.Ow you haven't read the whole post because i have said that i kill them most of the time(It is still no fun to fight 1). No i see a problem with thief and mesmer that is not healthy for the game. If you do a lot of damage you need to sacrific sustain. That is what every class does. Thief and mesmer doesn't have this. Mesmer more then theif. It is not even a fun fight agianst them.

No, I read it. Your schtick is a glass Cannon is not allowed to be so mobile. But being glassy only works in your favor in three instances.

You get the jump on someone.

You're able to keep pressuring them and surrender no quarter. They immediately lose if they are forced to pop their heal before you. This was why core thief was such a good damn monster in 1v1 before HoT. Their dodging and stickiness kept them alive and the other panicking with each blow they made.

Or barring those two, the player wasn't skilled enough to take you on.

Anet was on track when designing thief and giving him mobility to defend himself and stay healthy. The alternative for this class to hold his own so players would actually want to play it, and I fucking promise you, is far more annoying.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

No, I read it. Your schtick is a glass Cannon is not allowed to be so mobile. But being glassy only works in your favor in three instances.

You get the jump on someone.

You're able to keep pressuring them and surrender no quarter. They immediately lose if they are forced to pop their heal before you. This was why core thief was such a good kitten monster in 1v1 before HoT. Their dodging and stickiness kept them alive and the other panicking with each blow they made.

Or barring those two, the player wasn't skilled enough to take you on.

Anet was on track when designing thief and giving him mobility to defend himself and stay healthy. The alternative for this class to hold his own so players would actually want to play it, and I kitten promise you, is far more annoying.So you really think giving a class mobility to defend him self is the only think thief have. They have almost the most evades in the game, the only one that has more is mesmer now, in combo it wiht the mobility and you have a class that is not healthy for a game. The mesmer is thief time 10 so yes thief is not the worst but it doesn't say it is healthy for the game.

[reddie.5861]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

rofl, so we can have burst and absolutely no deffence.our deffence is mobility and burst basically..

if u fail ur burst and u stick around fighting for sure thief is going to end up dead.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@reddie.5861 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:I don't mind that the dps of a theif in a burst is really high sure let's have them that, but a thief shouldn't be extreem mobile. It is 1 of the other in a class not both. This is about pvp and wvw.

rofl, so we can have burst and absolutely no deffence.our deffence is mobility and burst basically..

if u fail ur burst and u stick around fighting for sure thief is going to end up dead.

So that is with every other class that go full berserk or something like that except Mesmer and Thief and that is not healthy for a game.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:So that is with every other class that go full berserk or something like that except Mesmer and Thief and that is not healthy for a game.

Please take a melee Thief into PvP matches with pure Berserker stats, then try to attack any non-Thief 1v1.Keep a track of how many kills, deaths, and escapes you achieve.I'm actually interested to know if the number of kills and escapes combined will even equal the number of deaths.

The problem with Berserker Thief is that you may not even be able to get a full burst in before you have to take off with your tail between your legs (literally for the Charr).Also, it's not enough to have stun breaks... you actually have to specifically have Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep so you can evade/teleport out of stuns.And if you get condi-bombed... well, good luck with that.

If you want to make it even more of a challenge, play Core Thief as Berserker.

[babazhook.6805]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:A. One issue the Thief has is sustain in a fight. As you said, you can't just bait and negate skills with a well-timed Death Blossom. And other professions have a lot of immunities while still being able to fight. So in order to increase the sustainability of the Thief in combat without giving them passive immunities of the others, consider the following.

Remove evades from weapon skills. Death Blossom, Flanking Strike, etc. would no longer grant the ability for the Thief to deal damage while receiving none. To further the concept, remove all abilities for the Thief to do damage while dodging/evading (Lotus Training, Bounding Dodger). This would keep the Thief "honest" by making itself vulnerable to damage while inflicting damage. So no more Death Blossom/Flanking Strike spam that can stack conditions or cause high damage while remaining relatively safe.

In return, give the Thief (near-)permanent dodge roll capability. When a Thief sees a big attack coming, it will be able to avoid it. If the Thief is in the middle of an attack, but sees it's about to get hit, it can cancel the attack by dodging. If the Thief gets caught in an AoE, it will be able to dodge until the AoE ends. If the Thief gets targeted by a long channeled attack, it will be able to dodge through it without becoming defenseless afterward. If an enemy goes immune (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone), the Thief can wait it out without withdrawing. While the Thief would be able to survive all of these, it would have to do so without doing any damage to the target. It's the basic equivalent of hiding in Stealth, though in plain sight.

On-dodge traits would have to be adjusted, of course. On-evade traits also. The Daredevil's 3rd dodge mechanic could be replaced with something that's actually unique to the specialization. Its dodge traits would also need some changes. The Acrobatics line could be upgraded.

lets compare perma evade with perma stealth as you said it is equivalent.

• stealth has still the bonus that you can attack without tell from it, some skills show animation before hit many dont.
• stealth will let you retreat without a long chase.
• dodging has the advantage that you avoid incoming hits, this you do not have in stealth - i kill many thieves in stealth.
• dodge spamming has further the advantage that people wont stop 'wasting' their skills as there is no define window to attack. many stop attacking if the thief goes stealth as it is either of short duration or you know it will be a projectile that you can avoid when cast or a backstab that you can avoid moving.
• being able to cancel anything into a dodge would be really OP. currently movement skills on any class can only be canceled with weapon swap wich has a cd and therefor they give you a perfect opportunity to attack. with that change you have no window were you can be attacked. and here your analogy with stealth also doesnt work, i cannot midcast without being interruptable enter stealth at anytime as often as i want to. i can do that with blinding powder and with traited steal if not DE, both has a CD. even tho stealth midcast woulnt avoid a hit.

as stated now quite often i prefer fighting a perma stealth thief then a perma evade one as there are ways to counterplay stealth stacking as most skills that grant stealth can be interruped or are an attack that would reveal on hit. further while stealthed the thief is still vulnerable, near perma evade spamming thief has nearly no windows you can attack them so you kind of have to spamm to kill them aswell ( sure you can abuse aftercast etc. but that is way harder then killing a stealthed thief)

If actual unlimited dodging is too imbalanced, it could be limited. One possible limiter is to add short vulnerable windows after a dodge (I'd prefer not to). Another would be to simply lower the amount of endurance per dodge (say 15 with constant regeneration or 10 with regeneration frozen while dodging). Or the endurance meter could mimic an "overheating" mechanic like how many shooting games will allow a gun to constantly shoot until it overheats, and if it does overheat, then it is useless until it cools down, which punishes overuse.

if the thief is vulnerable outside dodging then you would still need near perma evade to endure till there is a little window of opportunity. full permanent evade will be too strong and result in unkillable thieves, while those punish mechanics will make the thief lose against any decent opponent.its really hard to balance around an all or nothing mechanic like evade, evades should be part of the thieves repertoire but they should not be the only defensive tool.

A lot of the stealth versus evade argument depends on the Profession facing it. As example, while I do not know the Mesmers overall take on it, I have better success with a high stealth thief versus a high evade thief versus a mesmer and this because of target drop and the inability of the mesmer to generate as many clones when there no target.

[bq pd.2148]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:A. One issue the Thief has is sustain in a fight. As you said, you can't just bait and negate skills with a well-timed Death Blossom. And other professions have a lot of immunities while still being able to fight. So in order to increase the sustainability of the Thief in combat without giving them passive immunities of the others, consider the following.

Remove evades from weapon skills. Death Blossom, Flanking Strike, etc. would no longer grant the ability for the Thief to deal damage while receiving none. To further the concept, remove all abilities for the Thief to do damage while dodging/evading (Lotus Training, Bounding Dodger). This would keep the Thief "honest" by making itself vulnerable to damage while inflicting damage. So no more Death Blossom/Flanking Strike spam that can stack conditions or cause high damage while remaining relatively safe.

In return, give the Thief (near-)permanent dodge roll capability. When a Thief sees a big attack coming, it will be able to avoid it. If the Thief is in the middle of an attack, but sees it's about to get hit, it can cancel the attack by dodging. If the Thief gets caught in an AoE, it will be able to dodge until the AoE ends. If the Thief gets targeted by a long channeled attack, it will be able to dodge through it without becoming defenseless afterward. If an enemy goes immune (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone), the Thief can wait it out without withdrawing. While the Thief would be able to survive all of these, it would have to do so without doing any damage to the target. It's the basic equivalent of hiding in Stealth, though in plain sight.

On-dodge traits would have to be adjusted, of course. On-evade traits also. The Daredevil's 3rd dodge mechanic could be replaced with something that's actually unique to the specialization. Its dodge traits would also need some changes. The Acrobatics line could be upgraded.

lets compare perma evade with perma stealth as you said it is equivalent.

• stealth has still the bonus that you can attack without tell from it, some skills show animation before hit many dont.
• stealth will let you retreat without a long chase.
• dodging has the advantage that you avoid incoming hits, this you do not have in stealth - i kill many thieves in stealth.
• dodge spamming has further the advantage that people wont stop 'wasting' their skills as there is no define window to attack. many stop attacking if the thief goes stealth as it is either of short duration or you know it will be a projectile that you can avoid when cast or a backstab that you can avoid moving.
• being able to cancel anything into a dodge would be really OP. currently movement skills on any class can only be canceled with weapon swap wich has a cd and therefor they give you a perfect opportunity to attack. with that change you have no window were you can be attacked. and here your analogy with stealth also doesnt work, i cannot midcast without being interruptable enter stealth at anytime as often as i want to. i can do that with blinding powder and with traited steal if not DE, both has a CD. even tho stealth midcast woulnt avoid a hit.

as stated now quite often i prefer fighting a perma stealth thief then a perma evade one as there are ways to counterplay stealth stacking as most skills that grant stealth can be interruped or are an attack that would reveal on hit. further while stealthed the thief is still vulnerable, near perma evade spamming thief has nearly no windows you can attack them so you kind of have to spamm to kill them aswell ( sure you can abuse aftercast etc. but that is way harder then killing a stealthed thief)

If actual unlimited dodging is too imbalanced, it could be limited. One possible limiter is to add short vulnerable windows after a dodge (I'd prefer not to). Another would be to simply lower the amount of endurance per dodge (say 15 with constant regeneration or 10 with regeneration frozen while dodging). Or the endurance meter could mimic an "overheating" mechanic like how many shooting games will allow a gun to constantly shoot until it overheats, and if it does overheat, then it is useless until it cools down, which punishes overuse.

if the thief is vulnerable outside dodging then you would still need near perma evade to endure till there is a little window of opportunity. full permanent evade will be too strong and result in unkillable thieves, while those punish mechanics will make the thief lose against any decent opponent.its really hard to balance around an all or nothing mechanic like evade, evades should be part of the thieves repertoire but they should not be the only defensive tool.

A lot of the stealth versus evade argument depends on the Profession facing it. As example, while I do not know the Mesmers overall take on it, I have better success with a high stealth thief versus a high evade thief versus a mesmer and this because of target drop and the inability of the mesmer to generate as many clones when there no target.

well you should fare better against a good mesmer with evade one IMO as you can better avoid their burst. against slow mesmer as against any slow opponent stealth grants you a wide window to attack before they counter attack. against some random groups i can sometimes onehit and stomp one inside of them without them even reacting to me till they see the stomp. but then there are good opponents that will dodge any hit after the first hit from stealth and depending on class counter preassure immideatly. against those it is easier with high evade thief as you can bait their burst easier and then attack.in my oppinion target breaks are extremly strong against bad (slow) players and stealth is a target break, but against a good opponent evades are stronger than stealth. for roaming in WvW i prefer stealth because mostly it will be 1 vs X and to win outnumbered you got to assume they are not the best players anyway and in that case stealth will grant you huge windows were you can attack without being preassured , evades wouldnt stop them spamming their skills and even if they dont know what they are doing 20 people random button smashing does hurt, stealth interrupts this spamm. against good players you shouldnt go outnumbered to begin with and the windows to attack you get upon stealthing are too small to be worth the effort as stealth rarely will bait their counterburst, so i prefer evade here. but as i dont duel , i dont run into an opponent often were it would be better to not go stealth heavy build and if i do, i remain on stealth one and take on the challange mostly.so i dont really think it depends on profession you face but more on the player you face , tho you are correct that some proffessions/builds are more dependet on targets - FA ele for instance.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:So that is with every other class that go full berserk or something like that except Mesmer and Thief and that is not healthy for a game.

Please take a melee Thief into PvP matches with pure Berserker stats, then try to attack any non-Thief 1v1.Keep a track of how many kills, deaths, and escapes you achieve.I'm actually interested to know if the number of kills and escapes combined will even equal the number of deaths.

The problem with Berserker Thief is that you may not even be able to get a full burst in before you have to take off with your tail between your legs (literally for the Charr).Also, it's not enough to have stun breaks... you actually have to specifically have Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep so you can evade/teleport out of stuns.And if you get condi-bombed... well, good luck with that.

If you want to make it even more of a challenge, play Core Thief as Berserker.

You know what i mean so i am not going to respons to this

[Kageseigi.2150]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:You know what i mean so i am not going to respons to this

I actually don't. I think you're talking outside of your knowledge.I've played Berserker/Assassin melee Core Thief. It's all but suicide to get into melee range and to actually TRY to do damage.