Path of Fire, Deadeye, and getting back into GW2 -- months later -- and a few concepts for it

[itspomf.9523]

Title might seem a bit odd, but I've been meaning to write this post for a while, now, and it's intended as a sort of "retrospective" of getting myself back into Guild Wars 2 following a very harsh falling out with Heart of Thorns.

So I ended up buying Path of Fire despite nearly all of my objections to it and realized just how little justice the marketing really did it (thank you again, dear friend who told me quite truthfully that it was a return to the old feel of Tyria!). Which, frankly, is a feeling I've had about almost all of the content release with Path of Fire; what we saw was not nearly as awesome as what we got.

I'll not spend the majority of this post exonerating Path of Fire and how much I actually really enjoyed it (except the Forged, as those guys are right bastards) despite its quirks and a few spoilery tidbits that just felt out of place with the storytelling

like everything surrounding Vlast and Glint which, while absolutely integral to the story, had little impact upon it ultimately, especially with the effectively off-screen demise of Vlast and the uncertain circumstances of The Macguffin.

Yeah there were a few parts I had to slog through, but overall it was vastly more fun than Heart of Thorns and the maps were not only more exciting to explore but more forgiving, so good on you, ANet, and thank you!

It really did bring me back into the game and I absolutely love the Casino Coin Blitz minigames!

Alright, with that out of the way:

Deadeye: who the heck even are they?

If you give me a moment to

, as we reflect on the aforementioned marketing, the Deadeye is:

The Deadeye is a Thief who stalks their targets with patience and brutal accuracy. They use a rifle to snipe at long range, marking targets to harass them with harmful effects. Their mastery of shadow magic lets them cast Cantrips, which gain bonuses when used against marked targets, or as their malice increases.

Note: The quote is a handwritten transcript of the youtube video linked above; apologies for any mistakes.

The tl;dr format of that exceedingly brief summary of the class is literally "some mean kitten with a rifle." That's ... it.

Which, when reviewing the other elites I've been working toward (Mirage, Firebrand, and Spellbreaker insofar, though a friend has unlocked Soulbeast and Scourge and spoken to me at length about them), Deadeye feels like the only "mean kitten with a thing" that is only a mean kitten with a thing. And I find that kind of sad. Even Berserker had more flavor as a really, really mean kitten with a torch and a very bad attitude.

The elite spec lacks all identity yet has so much hidden flavor that Guy Fieri is lurking in the shadows just waiting to do his thing. Unlike its counterparts, it has no realistic association to Elona, the Crystal Desert, or the history of its peoples, let alone any overt relation to its core profession aside from "shadow magics." We certainly can't claim them to be bounty hunters, after all, since bounties are available to everyone and seem to be a very lucrative (and remarkably ineffective) means of keeping rampaging Choya, Branded, and other ne'er-do-wells under control.

So then what is the Deadeye?

It's right there in the name and that incredibly topical summary. So, let's review the Deadeye, shall we? What we know is:

• A unique mastery of Shadow Arts which has given them newfound abilities
• A harrowing gaze attack which compounds harm upon their victim
• Malevolence ("malice") which builds the more they wound their victim, and makes them stronger
• Oh, yeah, and rifles ...?

On the surface this doesn't feel like much at all, but those first three points are stuffed to the brim with delicious world-building goodness. As a result, I'd spent some time recently re-envisioning the Deadeye within the world of Tyria as not just an offshoot from core Thief, but an evolution of an existing specialization. Ergo, Daredevil is to Acrobatics, as Deadeye is to Shadow Arts.

Re-envisioning the Deadeye

Let's begin with making that summary even cooler by making the Deadeye someone you really don't want to mess with. Please imagine the dramatic announcer voice in your head as you read along.

The Deadeye is a thief who has dabbled too deeply in the shadowy magics of their profession, gaining both unique power and a devastating curse which they can inflict upon their victims with a harrowing gaze and has earned them their name. As the power of the curse compounds, so too does that of the Deadeye, granting them greater control over the eldritch power at their command and the shadows they manipulate to do their bidding. The stronger the bond of the curse, the more Malice a Deadeye holds, empowering their abilities, known as Cantrips, as well as increasing their own strength over their doomed victim.

Essentially we have a drop-in replacement for the entire theme and nature of the Deadeye: an eldritch practitioner of Shadow Arts who has become cursed by the very shadowstuff with which they have gained an uncanny affinity. Their name comes from the curse itself, which manifests as the ability to afflict their foes by meeting their gaze (thanks to Deadeye's Mark operating on Line-of-Sight -- clever, isn't it?). Malice works likewise, becoming the power of the curse being exerted over the marked target, and thus strengthening the Cantrips of the Deadeye and their attacks against it.

And I suppose we could explain away the rifles as being the obvious choice for someone whose powers rely on eagle-eyed vision -- what better way to take out your foes than from afar when they cannot even reach you before the curse claims their lives?

In short, this leaves everything completely unchanged but with a few tweaks to descriptions (and a healthy addition of unadulterated flavor-sprinkles) gives us a far more enticing alternative to Thief and Daredevil. The only difference is that the elite spec is no longer shoehorned around a solitary weapon quite so much -- thematically, at least.

Going Further

Probably the biggest thing holding the Deadeye back is the rifle. I know, I know, you all really really wanted a rifle, so I'm not going to take it away from you. Besides, I look really cool with this Modniir Rifle skin (or a hilariously oversized Charzooka), so it stays. Rather, it's the traits of Deadeye which are kind of a problem.

Kneel and all its features feel ... out of place. In fact, the switchy nature of Rifle was part of the reason I was so put off by it -- and many others still are -- when it was first previewed. My experience with it during the beta weekend in the Heart of the Mists was a purely negative one, reinforced by gameplay video examples I'd seen for closed beta participants that had been released shortly beforehand. Rifle felt ... clunky. Like matchlocks of yore but worse, and that says nothing about how completely contradictory Kneel itself felt.

Sniper's Cover -- the trait that gives you stealth and +20% crit chance while active -- is nice and thematic for the feel of being a sniper, but its value as a trait is nil; the only thing it brings to our gunpowder-drenched party is stealth, which Deadeye already has access to from its Elite skill, Shadow Meld, which has the advantage of negating Revealed, can I get a halellujah?! Aside from that, with how quickly Malice can be acquired and the availability of Fury, that extra +20% soon turns into something a touch redundant.

I'd propose an effective streamlining of Rifle to flavor it around the retooled concept and make Deadeye feel a bit more mobile, all without losing some of its counterplay and trade-offs.

The Rifle, Less Boorishly*

Wordplay aside, the approach is thus: the Kneel effect is stripped from the game, as is the roll-over of skills. 1,500 range is folded into Rifle as a baseline, damage is normalized between the two sets, +50% projectile velocity is standard, and the +20% crit rate is a passive bonus when maximum Malice is reached (at either 5 or 7, with Maleficent Seven). Kind of like how Staff or Longbow got treated with Elementalist and Ranger.

But that leaves some critical skills lost to to the Mists, for which we shan't stand. And so, a better, sleeker rifle.

1. Brutal Aim: this skill now deals 338 base damage with a 0.8 coefficient, and applies 2 stacks of bonus vulnerability to marked targets, granting it a hybrid of Deadly Aim.↳ (stealth) Cursed Bullet: this is our first skill which breaks the general mold established by Kneel. It always has a 1,500 range. So instead, we'll make its +20% bonus damage be applied only against a marked target -- you know, because curses and stuff.

2. Skirmisher's Shot: 411 base damage with a 0.975 coefficient. Still pierces up to 5 targets and grants 3 seconds Swiftness, but if your marked target is one of them, this skill now gives 1.5 seconds of Fury and Vigor as well (all boon durations are halved from their original values), creating a hybrid with Spotter's Shot.

3. Burst Fire: renamed due to confusion and the combining of Double Tap and Three-round Burst, this skill now acts uniquely based on the target. It always fires at least 2 rounds with a damage of 548 (note to self: rebalance?) and a higher base coefficient of 1.775, but will now fire a third round if the target is your marked target. Each shot which hits its target will still grant 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds, as before.

4. Death's Retreat: the only skill I leave untouched for this, as having an escape is invaluable.

5. Death's Judgment: here's where the magic happens. Moved over to take the place of Kneel / Free Action, this skill becomes visibly channeled, with a special caveat: the longer you let it channel, the greater the base damage (up to its value). Moreover, if you move, you interrupt it early and spoil the shot with a 50% chance of an outright miss if you're under 33% charge rate (gotta give them a chance somehow!). The result is that the Deadeye is locked in place as they take careful aim to dispatch their foe with a killing shot -- near exactly like the crazy laser-cannon that Deadeye can be without having to go through an extra sequence of keys. To account for this, its Initiative cost is increased to 6, stacking on the +1 from Kneel. Yes, this means you have to wait longer for your Initiative to recharge -- which it'll be doing already while you "take the shot."

The result is having a weapon around which the elite spec is built that no longer feels so clunky when you forget you're kneeling -- or are kneeling and need to get out of the way of an attack telegraph by dodge rolling because your instincts say "V" but your brain screams "5."

The tricky one will certainly be Death's Judgment being the traditional "uber" attack on 5, as well as probably a necessary nerf to the damage curve of the rifle -- seeing as these numbers place it in a very competitive position. Having the player need to stop moving as they take aim might seem crazy and is a bit against the nature of Thief being the agile little brats they are, but a ton of other classes have similar skills where using another skill or moving will interrupt their channeling, so I feel it's both perfectly fair and a reasonable compromise between the two.

The biggest boon will be the increased crit rate at maximum malice and the universal flight-speed and 1,500 range, letting Deadeye become a sort of counterpart to longbow Ranger while letting them trade off some of their reliance on equipment or other trait lines.

Afterword

It's still a work in progress and largely hashed out in the writing of it, but I'd love to hear your opinions!

p.s.: I know this should probably be in the Thief subcategory, but I feel it won't gain much traction there and isn't necessarily in the spirit of the forum as being a weird combination of theory-crafting and design work. But hey, mods get final arbitration.

* Or, "Cogito, Ergo Boom"

[itspomf.9523]

Boom-spamming and a Deeper Dive into Deadeye

Since this is a touch unrelated to the core discussion, but seems to be a build I've not seen many beyond myself using, I want to address the beauty of Support-DPS Thief via Deadeye, also known as "boom-spam."

Deadeye has three traits that, on the surface, look fairly useless, but once you combine them with Trickery, become a source of near limitless boons for yourself and your party. And when applied in rapid succession against cannon-fodder (remember, you are the cannon), can massively boost your buddies to 25 Might and a slew of boons in a matter of moments.

• One in the Chamber: When you cast a cantrip, gain a random new stolen skill. (Requires a marked target. Overwrites existing stolen skills.)
• Peripheral Vision: Stolen skills apply their boons to allies near you and apply their conditions to foes around your marked target.
• Fire for Effect: Hitting your marked target with a stolen skill grants might to allies around your mark and to allies around you. Cannot grant might to the same ally more than once per activation.

All three of these have incredible synergy, especially if you use Malicious Restoration and at least one other Cantrip (a favorite of mine for handling break bars is Binding Shadows).

Fire for Effect compounds on Peripheral Vision's pure awesomeness, and together with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft from Trickery, essentially gives you and your buddies 9 Might on activation (F1 + F2) or 8 Might each time you use a stolen skill -- which you can do quite often in longer fights between reapplying your Mark and needing to heal or slap a Cantrip down.

The real trick is to be cognizant of your F2 slot; if your Mark is about to expire and you need to heal, use Malicious Restoration first! Get off that sweet sweet +8 Might for 12 seconds and then reapply your mark to effortlessly bring it to 17 stacks for you and your allies, in addition to all the boons granted by your stolen skill! And for up to 10 friends! You are now the life of the party and completely invaluable, so snuggle right up to the other ranged attackers, let your Warrior, Holosmith, and Firebrand close in, then pop some boons.

When doing dailies a few nights back to defend some Hylek against the evil wiles of the Krait of Nonmoa Lake, I and a good 20 other players had near constant might, fury, swiftness, vigor, and a rotating variety of protection, resistance, aegis, superspeed, and / or quickness.

Essentially, Steal went from a skill I almost never used throughout all of Core Tyria and the Heart of Maguuma (and LS3), to something I use constantly because it's finally that good.

[Zedek.8932]

Excelsior.

I am very fine with Deadeye's gameplay, expect that I for myself are at the opposite when it comes to the Shadow stuff."Shadow this", "Shadow that". That's a cheap excuse in my opinion.

The kneel and all is fine too. The one and only thing that need to change right now is simple: Give us the highest range in the game. Not being worse than a friggin archer..

I know what the point of this thread is, and I enjoyed it despite the different views on that profession, but as Hardcore Rifle Deadeye fan, it is always nice to read some theorycrafting.

The reason why I love my profession is because it is fun - and that's because it's not cheesy pewpew. The current Deadeye is for people enjoying it, the other can go elsewhere. And I am very fine with that. Being off the mainstream can be refreshing in itself.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

It was an interesting read, but I have to disagree with changing the rifle mechanics. Kneel is the only way A-net justifies the buffs we got Feb 8th. If they changed rifle to what you want, it would get nerfed and made a useless weapon again even with your change to DJ. I am going to have to pass on this idea and suggest the rifle kneel stays the same. Just takes practice to get used to it.

[Leo G.4501]

Not going to lie, Deadeye support is pretty fun to play when I'm in open world and helping other people take stuff down. Half of the time, I'm just in stealth far away looking at how people are doing then rush in, apply a set of boons and watch everything evaporate in my presence.

I always considered the Deadeye as a profession that sort of runs the Bounty system in the background. Sure, they use adventurers to take down threats, but someone has to be the ones directing those adventurers to those threats. Its kind of a coincidence that when the mark for the target appears on the board and is taken by someone but is absent if the target is not around. Making the bounty mark appear on the board when a master Deadeye gazes upon their target whose whereabouts instantly become known the moment an individual touches the bounty's notice...

[Platanos.8107]

Anyone think that Improvisation should work with One in the Chamber?One in the Chamber: When you cast a cantrip, gain a random new stolen skill. Stolen Skill Uses: 1Improvisation: You can use stolen skills twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal.

I also personally think that Peripheral Vision should apply on allies near the target too. Doesn't really have good synergy with the rifle.

[DeceiverX.8361]

% chance on potent damage is something I'd rather not see in any PvP context to be honest, particularly so with a major nuke like DJ.

My criticism with DE lies in that it's easy to exploit and has one obvious superior build by running permastealth SA, and the reward for camping stealth infinitely is way too high in respects to its capability to 1HKO virtually everything in the game. It's the same situation we had with old D/P mightstack SA: camp stealth until you one-hit-kill your foe. Fail? Shadowstep -> Meld and try again. There's no interaction or substantial risk.

It's a bit of a different case in sPvP with a lack of capacity to just infinitely stay in stealth, but for the profession's usefulness to swing on a gimmick isn't exactly a good feeling for anyone.

If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:% chance on potent damage is something I'd rather not see in any PvP context to be honest, particularly so with a major nuke like DJ.

My criticism with DE lies in that it's easy to exploit and has one obvious superior build by running permastealth SA, and the reward for camping stealth infinitely is way too high in respects to its capability to 1HKO virtually everything in the game. It's the same situation we had with old D/P mightstack SA: camp stealth until you one-hit-kill your foe. Fail? Shadowstep -> Meld and try again. There's no interaction or substantial risk.

It's a bit of a different case in sPvP with a lack of capacity to just infinitely stay in stealth, but for the profession's usefulness to swing on a gimmick isn't exactly a good feeling for anyone.

If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

I don't think that would be any better than it is working now. Stealth is it's only saving grace at the moment because DJ is so dodge-able. Basically, you would make it just a spam 3round burst spec only which would just be as boring as it is now. Your suggestion still doesn't fix the 1v1 issues it has as a spec. As it currently stands, SA and permastealth are the only real ways to use DE rifle. Gutting the stealth aspect would just make it worse.

[bq pd.2148]

dont take away my immob from spotters shot!i do personally like that we got a rooted kneel mechanic, wich requires the deadeye to choose his position way more tactical and need to plan enemy movements more then just reacting to what ever happens like on other thief builds.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

providing cover fire is something you can only do in a group fight, while stealth stacking is only useful in 1 vs X in WvW - those are just completly different type of fights and both can require skill of some sort. sure stealth stacking to fight a single opponent is bad and wasted time - unless that opponent can potentially oneshot you but alone against multiple opponents i see many thieves unable even with stacking stealth to kill anyone, so it seems to require skill.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:% chance on potent damage is something I'd rather not see in any PvP context to be honest, particularly so with a major nuke like DJ.

My criticism with DE lies in that it's easy to exploit and has one obvious superior build by running permastealth SA, and the reward for camping stealth infinitely is way too high in respects to its capability to 1HKO virtually everything in the game. It's the same situation we had with old D/P mightstack SA: camp stealth until you one-hit-kill your foe. Fail? Shadowstep -> Meld and try again. There's no interaction or substantial risk.

It's a bit of a different case in sPvP with a lack of capacity to just infinitely stay in stealth, but for the profession's usefulness to swing on a gimmick isn't exactly a good feeling for anyone.

If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

I don't think that would be any better than it is working now. Stealth is it's only saving grace at the moment because DJ is so dodge-able. Basically, you would make it just a spam 3round burst spec only which would just be as boring as it is now. Your suggestion still doesn't fix the 1v1 issues it has as a spec. As it currently stands, SA and permastealth are the only real ways to use DE rifle. Gutting the stealth aspect would just make it worse.

If the timer on malice stacks got drastically cut, you wouldn't need to camp stealth is the point. A ton of people run it with Haste to cut the timer on DJ down. This is the easiest build in the game to take into 1v1's right now solely because of SA and Meld making it so safe. It's exactly the same issue that old D/P mightstack SA used to have, and that build was not fun to play against at all. DE is a gimmick because of this interaction. If removed, the rest of the kit could be changed to be more fun to play against and simply just made stronger in more circumstances. Things like Retreat could see their initiative costs cut to 3 and allow for a lot of kiting and unique play patterns not seen in other classes.

Mind you, I'm also not advocating for just "gutting" stealth; I'm advocating for getting rid of stacking stealth. It's being abused by thief, mesmer, ranger, and holosmith now.It's becoming an endemic problem across more than just the thief. Removing stacking stealth is a huge gameplay change people have been asking for for years, and it implicitly demands changes to SA.

And I'd rather spam 3RB for damage than sit in stealth for half a minute to one-shot someone. Comments about fun are pretty subjective, you know? That's why I always look at things from my opponents' perspectives when determining fun/fairness.

@MUDse.7623 said:dont take away my immob from spotters shot!i do personally like that we got a rooted kneel mechanic, wich requires the deadeye to choose his position way more tactical and need to plan enemy movements more then just reacting to what ever happens like on other thief builds.

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

providing cover fire is something you can only do in a group fight, while stealth stacking is only useful in 1 vs X in WvW - those are just completly different type of fights and both can require skill of some sort. sure stealth stacking to fight a single opponent is bad and wasted time - unless that opponent can potentially oneshot you but alone against multiple opponents i see many thieves unable even with stacking stealth to kill anyone, so it seems to require skill.

That's kind of what I mean, though. Right now, providing cover fire isn't really worth doing most of the time, which also hurts the people you're with. It's the reason the DE is seen as pretty bad in sPvP; it can't deal with anything except sustained encounters of either 1v1 or large enough numbers where it won't really matter for taking inaction.

Skilled play is more apparent in 1vX, but in 1v1/isolated targets, stacking stealth isn't exactly difficult. Day 1 on Deadeye and I could take literally any class thrown at me while barely paying attention to be honest. I know my normal core DA/CS/Tr D/D is a demanding build to play, but the rotations for stacking stealth are quite easy and really hard for single players to shut down. The fact that the suggestion to deal with a DE is just to run into a tower or keep and have them give up is indicative of unhealthy play patterns in general. Unfavorable matchups into a skilled opponent and running for one's life is one thing, but we play the PvP formats to fight; we shouldn't have situations where a matchup consists of "run away" and the likes.

A lot of DE's mess up by trying to kill people after failing a DJ or TRB and just going full-ham. The spec is too weak to commit like that, and it's why they die/don't get kills. That's what I'd rather see changed; stacking stealth for 20s+ and auto-killing someone (or not) -> Rinse and Repeat is unhealthy gameplay for the opponent and isn't exactly demanding from the DE, and the spec sucks if trying to commit. Cut stealth stacking to let opponents fight back, let it ramp faster to deal with counterplay, and let it be better at committing with some buffs to rifle and it's both healthy and balanced.

SA Rifle isn't OP so much as it's just anti-fun to fight against and super easy to pick up. I'd rather see the class require a bit more thought (like you say, smart positioning with kneel) while giving it some better tools to deal with enemies a bit better than just depending on passive play and a trait line that is the epitome of encouraging passive play.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:% chance on potent damage is something I'd rather not see in any PvP context to be honest, particularly so with a major nuke like DJ.

My criticism with DE lies in that it's easy to exploit and has one obvious superior build by running permastealth SA, and the reward for camping stealth infinitely is way too high in respects to its capability to 1HKO virtually everything in the game. It's the same situation we had with old D/P mightstack SA: camp stealth until you one-hit-kill your foe. Fail? Shadowstep -> Meld and try again. There's no interaction or substantial risk.

It's a bit of a different case in sPvP with a lack of capacity to just infinitely stay in stealth, but for the profession's usefulness to swing on a gimmick isn't exactly a good feeling for anyone.

If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

I don't think that would be any better than it is working now. Stealth is it's only saving grace at the moment because DJ is so dodge-able. Basically, you would make it just a spam 3round burst spec only which would just be as boring as it is now. Your suggestion still doesn't fix the 1v1 issues it has as a spec. As it currently stands, SA and permastealth are the only real ways to use DE rifle. Gutting the stealth aspect would just make it worse.

If the timer on malice stacks got drastically cut, you wouldn't need to camp stealth is the point. A ton of people run it with Haste to cut the timer on DJ down. This is the easiest build in the game to take into 1v1's right now solely because of SA and Meld making it so safe. It's exactly the same issue that old D/P mightstack SA used to have, and that build was not fun to play against at all. DE is a gimmick because of this interaction. If removed, the rest of the kit could be changed to be more fun to play against and simply just made stronger in more circumstances. Things like Retreat could see their initiative costs cut to 3 and allow for a lot of kiting and unique play patterns not seen in other classes.

Mind you, I'm also not advocating for just "gutting" stealth; I'm advocating for getting rid of stacking stealth. It's being abused by thief, mesmer, ranger, and holosmith now.It's becoming an endemic problem across more than just the thief. Removing stacking stealth is a huge gameplay change people have been asking for for years, and it implicitly demands changes to SA.

And I'd rather spam 3RB for damage than sit in stealth for half a minute to one-shot someone. Comments about fun are pretty subjective, you know? That's why I always look at things from my opponents' perspectives when determining fun/fairness.

I don't see a problem with that fighting style though to be honest. DE Rifle is a Sniper, and you don't see Snipers fight head on like you are currently suggesting. I don't want a kiting DE. I currently find the current SA builds for it super fun at the moment. Always taking the opponents view over yours isn't exactly healthy either because you never develop a backbone that way and form/stick with your own opinions.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:dont take away my immob from spotters shot!i do personally like that we got a rooted kneel mechanic, wich requires the deadeye to choose his position way more tactical and need to plan enemy movements more then just reacting to what ever happens like on other thief builds.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

providing cover fire is something you can only do in a group fight, while stealth stacking is only useful in 1 vs X in WvW - those are just completly different type of fights and both can require skill of some sort. sure stealth stacking to fight a single opponent is bad and wasted time - unless that opponent can potentially oneshot you but alone against multiple opponents i see many thieves unable even with stacking stealth to kill anyone, so it seems to require skill.

That's kind of what I mean, though. Right now, providing cover fire isn't really worth doing most of the time, which also hurts the people you're with. It's the reason the DE is seen as pretty bad in sPvP; it can't deal with anything except sustained encounters of either 1v1 or large enough numbers where it won't really matter for taking inaction.

Skilled play is more apparent in 1vX, but in 1v1/isolated targets, stacking stealth isn't exactly difficult. Day 1 on Deadeye and I could take literally any class thrown at me while barely paying attention to be honest. I know my normal core DA/CS/Tr D/D is a demanding build to play, but the rotations for stacking stealth are quite easy and really hard for single players to shut down. The fact that the suggestion to deal with a DE is just to run into a tower or keep and have them give up is indicative of unhealthy play patterns in general. Unfavorable matchups into a skilled opponent and running for one's life is one thing, but we play the PvP formats to fight; we shouldn't have situations where a matchup consists of "run away" and the likes.

A lot of DE's mess up by trying to kill people after failing a DJ or TRB and just going full-ham. The spec is too weak to commit like that, and it's why they die/don't get kills. That's what I'd rather see changed; stacking stealth for 20s+ and auto-killing someone (or not) -> Rinse and Repeat is unhealthy gameplay for the opponent and isn't exactly demanding from the DE, and the spec sucks if trying to commit. Cut stealth stacking to let opponents fight back, let it ramp faster to deal with counterplay, and let it be better at committing with some buffs to rifle and it's both healthy and balanced.

SA Rifle isn't OP so much as it's just anti-fun to fight against and super easy to pick up. I'd rather see the class require a bit more thought (like you say, smart positioning with kneel) while giving it some better tools to deal with enemies a bit better than just depending on passive play and a trait line that is the epitome of encouraging passive play.

the problem that will remain is smart positioning is not possible against some classes that can preassure to fast too hard on range or close the gap too fast because the rifle is slow and mark is not instant like steal. luckily those build can often be taken out by a backstab oneshot, the most unhealthy thing in the game IMO, but without it you couldnt play a deadeye solo in WvW with the amount of mesmer , thieves and in theory rangers but you only run into a good ranger once every 2 years there.

imo if the rifle undergoes the changes needed to make it viable without stealth it will be pretty much same as any other thief build hit and run, wich seems to be what most prefer as i see way more s/d core thieves a few daredevils and very few deadeyes, wich often are not even stealth campers and play some weird underpowered stuff.but it will also take away some diversity in playstyle. while solo i prefer stealth heavy playstyle as it doesnt require your opponents to be trash when fighting outnumbered. and in WvW you are mostly outnumbered when solo. the opponents you face that are also solo are often people trying to get to the tag or quickly doing their daily. most roamers that might propose a little challange or well not full braindead fight i see either run in a group or well kinda run in a 'pack' like a bunch pf roamers staying in an area, not in a group but they will still gank up on everyone passing by. so if i want to fight someone that has actually basic understanding of some game mechanics i mostly am outnumbered and then a hit and run build wont get me far. sure killing a single opponent doesnt require much skill like this and what actually is needed is using enemy group dynamics to split them far enough to stomp one, picking the right target and the right moment to attack etc., but if you want fair and fun1 vs 1 fights that are based on skill you most likely are at some of the usual spots and duel. stealth heavy play is just the only real outnumbered roaming playstyle out there imo - because all the other ways require your opponents to be trash and i dont know how else you would provide a viable option to solo roam witout opening ways to possible exploits.i have been whispered several times over the last weeks that my playstyle is lame and requries no skill , guess what each of those people whispering got in commong ? they were all running in group of 5-15.you could argue that i should just look for a roaming guild and run in group myself. well i did just that a while and most of the fights were just we outnumber out opponents or they are pugs and only very few fights that were actually good and a challange but doable. so i returned to play solo , without stealth heavy play and without another way to fight outnumbered against people that got basic understanding of the game, i personally would probably stop playing WvW - unless i do start enjoing blobbing suddenly. therefor i will mostly argue against you whenever you advocate against stealth stacking, i understand your point but i do think its just the view of a duellist trying to find fair but challanging 1 vs 1 fights comming across a heavy stealth player that aims to fight outnumbered, that same as a 'fight blob' running towards a t3 SN stuffed with ACs and inside a 'ppt blob' and then arguing about AC too strong , walls too hard, need to get inside faster for the real fight that WvW is about - that is for the fight zerg true but the ppt one plays for the siege and the fight is just the last option to save the object. two different playstyles that wont get a happy interaction as they both seek something different.

[DeceiverX.8361]

If you think stab is OP you haven't met a good mesmer haha. MW is substantially better. I think backstab seems a lot more OP than it is coming from stealth-stacking on D/P and thief MH dagger's insane AA coefficients since they got buffed after HoT. And this was just to match the powercreep from the HoT specs, because thief was dealing some of the lowest damage in the game otherwise.

My experience thus far is that most people running solo are running S/D Acro and in small in groups are running the SA Deadeye build. Maybe differences between NA and EU, but I think I've encountered maybe a single deadeye running solo so far, and he just was not good. It's almost always a minimum of two deadeyes as well, one of which will typically act as pseudo-bait to lure a fight while they both mark to guarantee a kill. Even with mesmers etc. you can typically recognize the 2v1 from a distance. There's just no way to know with SA Deadeyes because they can leap the same field and all maintain full initiative if coordinated. It gets increasingly stronger in groups. That's why it's so frustrating; even in even-numbered group fights, this build still shines when stacked; the entire opposition just camps stealth and primes a 1HKO on your group. With the mark changes, it can't be predicted, either. I can understand the sentiment of trying to get good fights while being outnumbered, but you said it yourself - no other builds are capable if doing so into competent opponents. And honestly, if opposition is competent, they probably should have a substantial advantage while outnumbering a single player. Even those groups you fight are going to state that fighting you isn't fun. They're angry at you because there's no interaction on their end. Yes, you avoid a gank which is fun for you, but to everyone there, you're just basically running around immune to everything most of the time while waiting for the prime opportunity to get a down and rinse and repeat. And as a thief, if you get exposed, you do what thieves do and run away. Further, you can't even deal with DE like you can D/P DrD or core SA thief by using reveal traps, since Meld just removes it. They can't fight you if you play well. And it's a huge annoyance.

A lot of the problems in WvW right now are just because of powercreep. There's limited room to out-play people anymore. And honestly, that's a separate problem entirely. I'd like to see substantial nerfs everywhere, and I've voiced that for all professions over and over. I'm not going to just allow the thief to be immune to that same treatment because I play it, though.

You're absolutely not wrong in that there's a lot of very aggressive builds out there that apply asinine amounts of pressure at relatively low risk. And most people also agree these builds need nerfing. It's also why I mentioned Death's Retreat being able to drop down substantially in initiative cost as a consequence and about buffing the rifle to have better tools to utilize; generally, stealth-stacking is being abused hardcore game-wide by a lot of builds, and it's simply just not fun to play against. Ultimately, having fun is why people stick around, and the small-scale scene is seriously problematic right now with the amount of mechanics abuse we're seeing compared to only a few years ago.

@Doctor Hide.6345The sniper concept as a whole doesn't belong in GW2, though. I mentioned this in my assessment of the rifle when proposing the Deadeye to begin with. A lot of people and top PvP players shared this sentiment. You can have a backbone and give something strengths, but they should come with definitive weaknesses but most importantly, should follow the ideology of game design that a game is only as much fun as it is for the person having the least amount of fun. At the moment, the design of the SA Deadeye is just strictly unhealthy for everyone not playing one. Imagine if ANet removed the other classes/builds and the entirety of WvW swapped to just SA DE. How fun would that be? Would people be more or less likely to fight or engage? Having seen a large number of players on a server run this build simultaneously in a group of 25 or so, it completely breaks the game. Even when I took a group of two other SA Deadeyes out to contend these same players, fights pretty much never happened. You end up with groups of people just circling each other in permastealth waiting for someone to mess up. It went on for a long time because nobody messed up because the rotation is easy, and people just gave up and left from boredom. If that's not anti-fun, I don't know what is.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:If you think stab is OP you haven't met a good mesmer haha. MW is substantially better. I think backstab seems a lot more OP than it is coming from stealth-stacking on D/P and thief MH dagger's insane AA coefficients since they got buffed after HoT. And this was just to match the powercreep from the HoT specs, because thief was dealing some of the lowest damage in the game otherwise.

i didnt say backstab as such is too strong, but when it is enough to onehit opponents , then it is way stronger then MW.My experience thus far is that most people running solo are running S/D Acro and in small in groups are running the SA Deadeye build. Maybe differences between NA and EU, but I think I've encountered maybe a single deadeye running solo so far, and he just was not good. It's almost always a minimum of two deadeyes as well, one of which will typically act as pseudo-bait to lure a fight while they both mark to guarantee a kill. Even with mesmers etc. you can typically recognize the 2v1 from a distance. There's just no way to know with SA Deadeyes because they can leap the same field and all maintain full initiative if coordinated. It gets increasingly stronger in groups. That's why it's so frustrating; even in even-numbered group fights, this build still shines when stacked; the entire opposition just camps stealth and primes a 1HKO on your group.i havent encountered a group of deadeyes after the first 1-2 weeks of pof.With the mark changes, it can't be predicted, either. I can understand the sentiment of trying to get good fights while being outnumbered, but you said it yourself - no other builds are capable if doing so into competent opponents. And honestly, if opposition is competent, they probably should have a substantial advantage while outnumbering a single player. Even those groups you fight are going to state that fighting you isn't fun. They're angry at you because there's no interaction on their end. Yes, you avoid a gank which is fun for you, but to everyone there, you're just basically running around immune to everything most of the time while waiting for the prime opportunity to get a down and rinse and repeat. And as a thief, if you get exposed, you do what thieves do and run away. Further, you can't even deal with DE like you can D/P DrD or core SA thief by using reveal traps, since Meld just removes it. They can't fight you if you play well. And it's a huge annoyance.why would i run away? i cant outrun most roaming builds, i just stealth. it is true i do have way more fun then my opponents, was i on any other build it would be the other way round in alot of cases. and those traps should have been reworked long ago, currently you need to sit down for a long time to deploy them wich leaves you vulnearable and then the trap cannot be evaded like traps from players skills, should be im proved for the one deploying it and it should be avoidable. then DE wouldnt be at this much higher advantage then core or DrD builds.

A lot of the problems in WvW right now are just because of powercreep. There's limited room to out-play people anymore. And honestly, that's a separate problem entirely. I'd like to see substantial nerfs everywhere, and I've voiced that for all professions over and over. I'm not going to just allow the thief to be immune to that same treatment because I play it, though.

yes powercreep is one of the main reasons why fighting outnumbered is often nearly impossible as random spamming stuff has gotten really strong.You're absolutely not wrong in that there's a lot of very aggressive builds out there that apply asinine amounts of pressure at relatively low risk. And most people also agree these builds need nerfing. It's also why I mentioned Death's Retreat being able to drop down substantially in initiative cost as a consequence and about buffing the rifle to have better tools to utilize; generally, stealth-stacking is being abused hardcore game-wide by a lot of builds, and it's simply just not fun to play against. Ultimately, having fun is why people stick around, and the small-scale scene is seriously problematic right now with the amount of mechanics abuse we're seeing compared to only a few years ago.

well one thing that i see worse then stealth stacking is evade spamm and the ones not stacking stealth do spamm evades, if we just remove stealth stacking we will only face evades. for d/p stealth stacking and stuff like SR are way better counters possible then for evadespamming wich can only be countered by shockauras and cages/walls and not everyone has access to that.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The sniper concept as a whole doesn't belong in GW2, though. I mentioned this in my assessment of the rifle when proposing the Deadeye to begin with. A lot of people and top PvP players shared this sentiment. You can have a backbone and give something strengths, but they should come with definitive weaknesses but most importantly, should follow the ideology of game design that a game is only as much fun as it is for the person having the least amount of fun. At the moment, the design of the SA Deadeye is just strictly unhealthy for everyone not playing one. Imagine if ANet removed the other classes/builds and the entirety of WvW swapped to just SA DE. How fun would that be? Would people be more or less likely to fight or engage? Having seen a large number of players on a server run this build simultaneously in a group of 25 or so, it completely breaks the game. Even when I took a group of two other SA Deadeyes out to contend these same players, fights pretty much never happened. You end up with groups of people just circling each other in permastealth waiting for someone to mess up. It went on for a long time because nobody messed up because the rotation is easy, and people just gave up and left from boredom. If that's not anti-fun, I don't know what is.

I have always disagreed with those sentiments of DE Sniper should not exist in the game from the very beginning. I think it was an archetype this game desperately needed to round it off a little better, and I will still argue that. The reasoning you are using is the same reasoning people use in real life war and FPS's against sniper like game-play. My response to those claims is that it will never be fair or just against the person on the other end of the barrel. Denying that play-style though because some don't find it fun isn't the right way to go about it.

Not everyone likes the head on battle fighting style which you want. Some people like me like being sneaky kittens with attacking and retreating tactics because we enjoy it. Denying us that is plain wrong in my opinion which is why I am opposed to the changes mentioned.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@MUDse.7623 The only thing that makes MW any different/weaker is passive immunities. Otherwise it's strictly stronger burst. Evade spam is much weaker than it used to be given the nerfs to endurance refunds on a few skills/Daredevil, though S/D Acro promotes it pretty heavily with double klepto and the likes, although even still, there's still some degree of interaction with the thief with these builds by at least being able to attempt to focus them. This is more or less a build concept being badly-designed than anything. As far as S/D Acro goes, it's the only build capable of dealing with the powercreep, and to be totally honest, S/D as a kit carries D/D because of it's strictly better evasion frames and mobility.

@Doctor Hide.6345 In FPS games, snipers are still visible and can still be shot across the map by any other gun for the most part if discovered.

This just isn't the case with SA DE. Even if you know they are there and where they hit you from, you don't have any idea where they may be in the 1500-range radius around you save for the tell of a BP once every 10s or so. And by the time you catch up, the ring is gone and they've similarly re-positioned somewhere new in orbit. If you discover a sniper's position in an FPS, they need to outplay you to stay alive; if they stay where they are, they'll get rushed from LOS and die. If the run, they have the weakness of bad close-quarters. Maps are often specifically designed to play into this tactic as well, and it's why the best players move around a lot. The real skill is knowing where they're supposed to move to and delivering on macro play. The concept of the SA DE does not suffer from these weaknesses because it moves with impunity due to stacking stealth indefinitely. There are no windows of opportunity to kill it when it changes location, which is why it's so frustrating to play against. It's not OP when dealing damage because either it hits the DJ or doesn't for the most part, but even the consequences of self-reveal get negated pretty quickly via a shadowstep and Meld -> stack stealth -> return.

The playstyle of SA DE is still a kiting build if played well. It's just not being attacked or attacking back while doing so.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

In FPS games, snipers are still visible and can still be shot across the map by any other gun for the most part if discovered.

This just isn't the case with SA DE. Even if you know they are there and where they hit you from, you don't have any idea where they may be in the 1500-range radius around you save for the tell of a BP once every 10s or so. And by the time you catch up, the ring is gone and they've similarly re-positioned somewhere new in orbit. If you discover a sniper's position in an FPS, they need to outplay you to stay alive; if they stay where they are, they'll get rushed from LOS and die. If the run, they have the weakness of bad close-quarters. Maps are often specifically designed to play into this tactic as well, and it's why the best players move around a lot. The real skill is knowing where they're supposed to move to and delivering on macro play. The concept of the SA DE does not suffer from these weaknesses because it moves with impunity due to stacking stealth indefinitely. There are no windows of opportunity to kill it when it changes location, which is why it's so frustrating to play against. It's not OP when dealing damage because either it hits the DJ or doesn't for the most part, but even the consequences of self-reveal get negated pretty quickly via a shadowstep and Meld -> stack stealth -> return.

The playstyle of SA DE is still a kiting build if played well. It's just not being attacked or attacking back while doing so.

I take it you have never played a FPS like Planetside 2 or a third person shooter like Defiance before where the PvP in that game has stealth Snipers which is why I like the current SA DE. It's the reason I enjoy it so much because that is my play-style when it comes to PvP. It does have weaknesses though because you sacrifice a lot of good utility for the stealth required. For example, you have to give up BV in order to get that extra stealth.

Also, it is super squishy if you mess up or get caught unlike Druid Bunker which never goes down.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Those games aren't exactly real FPS's and the comparison to GW2 combat isn't even close - a stray spray of rounds gets you killed, and in the case of PS2, you're disallowed from attacking while cloaked and have a relatively fixed cooldown on it; while cloaking can be permanent, you do not get to immediately re-enter if you choose to end it earlier than its duration. This means if your enemy is exposed at the beginning of your new cloak and you want to snipe them, you have 10+ seconds of revealed and no way to remove it. Everyone is also pretty much running ranged and can similarly OHKO you back. There's no kiting melee for the most part.

Planetside 2 being comparable to a major FPS in terms of skilled play is kind of a meme to be honest, and even the PS2 community acknowledges that.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Those games aren't exactly real FPS's and the comparison to GW2 combat isn't even close - a stray spray of rounds gets you killed, and in the case of PS2, you're disallowed from attacking while cloaked and have a relatively fixed cooldown on it; while cloaking can be permanent, you do not get to immediately re-enter if you choose to end it earlier than its duration. This means if your enemy is exposed at the beginning of your new cloak and you want to snipe them, you have 10+ seconds of revealed and no way to remove it. Everyone is also pretty much running ranged and can similarly OHKO you back. There's no kiting melee for the most part.

Planetside 2 being comparable to a major FPS in terms of skilled play is kind of a meme to be honest, and even the PS2 community acknowledges that.

Just because they are not mainstream doesn't make them non real FPSs. You can attack while cloaked per say. Just need to activate shooting disables stealth option which is also what SA DE does as well. Immediately you de-stealth when you attack, so I am not sure what your point is here because the down time for PS2 is not long like it is for GW2.Again, I disagree since PS2 takes more skill than CoD and BF due how good your reaction and aim has to be. I digress though. My point being you can't dismiss these just because they don't fit your view of a real FPS even though that's what they clearly are minus Defaince PvP which is third person shooter. GW2 SA DE is perfectly fine, but I know you'll never acknowledge it since you never liked the rifle from the beginning. I am just glad A-net sides with my view more than it does yours.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:@MUDse.7623 The only thing that makes MW any different/weaker is passive immunities. Otherwise it's strictly stronger burst. Evade spam is much weaker than it used to be given the nerfs to endurance refunds on a few skills/Daredevil, though S/D Acro promotes it pretty heavily with double klepto and the likes, although even still, there's still some degree of interaction with the thief with these builds by at least being able to attempt to focus them. This is more or less a build concept being badly-designed than anything. As far as S/D Acro goes, it's the only build capable of dealing with the powercreep, and to be totally honest, S/D as a kit carries D/D because of it's strictly better evasion frames and mobility.

MW ist mostly way easier to predict and to be stronger in damage then BS it needs additonal clones near the target. on top of that any thief can get way more stealth with utilities if he chooses to then a mesmer. i know you often dismiss the fact that a D/D doesnt have to hit his target to enter stealth and want to make it like CnD was the only way to prepare a BS but that is simply not true, sure with D/P you can do that with weapon skills , but you dont have to.yes there is some interaction :evade evade evade evade but yes you at least got the feeling that you can throw something at them , just never touches them. for stealth theives with d/p, what do you do when you see those BP circles? what do you do when you get marked ? do you go out to the open were the thief can be at 1500 range in any direction ? or do you use some trees, maybe little uneven terrain etc to force him to approach from a side of your choice ? once you know where he will come from, it is easier to prevent stealth stacking and to attack once he is revealed. most of my opponents still get the chance to use skills towards me, so there is at least as much interaction as with s/d acro.i know we will never agree on this topic tho, i just get more fun out of playing hide and seek ( not just from thief POV ) then from mindless spamming evades like s/d thieves and some mirage builds do because for that you dont need any tactic or what ever just spamm.

[DeceiverX.8361]

MW is only easier to predict if not casted into melee where it has visual tells. If the combo is done at melee range, the mesmer's attack vfx do not spawn.

The only way to make a backstab less predictable is by stacking stealth. Which is again, the problem for seemingly every build right now capable of doing massive burst damage; D/P signet, SA Rifle, power shatter mirage, smokescale soulbeast, and holosmith are all guilty of this abuse.

Our debate is pretty much always going to be a chicken/egg scenario, as I'd just retort about the DE having all the time to wait his enemies out and change angles. Using Shadowstep offensively in stealth to go front to rear and deny their LoS, or abuse their attempt to LoS by being allowed to run skills like SR at a distance to extend stealth without expending initiative and utilize DRereat to re-position.

Don't get me wrong, I also don't like the new S/D Acro, and hated DrD's spam when it released which is why I don't play it and don't even have the spec unlocked on my main thief, but that's a problem caused by powercreep more than anything. Everything else is deemed not strong enough as far as our melee engage kits go to deal with most of the stuff from PoF. The thief doesn't scale well with powercreep due to the initiative mechanic and its innate trickery which requires lower numbers and need to be susceptible to counter-burst as a consequence. Really, the true strength of S/D lies in it being pretty much the only kit capable of dealing with firebrand. Whenever it's enabled, it's prioritized over D/P more in sPvP because it won't lose point capture by going into stealth, either. The same is said for staff.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:that's a problem caused by powercreep more than anything. Everything else is deemed not strong enough as far as our melee engage kits go to deal with most of the stuff from PoF.

see with the powercreep that happend we got very offensive and very defensive builds. so we would see instant fights and endless fight, not much in between. to be able to get a little longer fight while still being offensive enough to actually kill something everyone has to resort to excessive use of evades, stealths, invulns and the likes.above you said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:If they removed the ability to stack stealth from the game (a tall order), they could cut down on the malice timers significantly and generally make the spec smoother and feel better, especially if providing cover fire into a fight with multiple opponents. This would buff the spec overall in skilled hands and promote much more active play and make it more fun to play against while punishing bad players who just abuse the SA build running around right now.

therefor you propose removing just one of the current ways to get little longer fights, the one you dont like as much as it is unfun to you. for me too many evades is worse to fight , many invulns and blocks are easier to deal with and i enjoy fighting with and against stealth.changing just stealth wont change current combat design and there is only a need to change it if its for some reason unbalanced with other ways to extend the TTK wich imo it is not. you actually nearly said it perfectly above what this SA DE is :

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The playstyle of SA DE is still a kiting build if played well. It's just not being attacked or attacking back while doing so.

a Deadeye has to avoid counterattacks as they are most likely to kill him. on the other hand it is easy to avoid a deadeyes attacks. so fighting a deadeye is all about baiting them into an unfavorable situation and trying to kill an experienced player with SA DE is also basically trying to trick them to eat your damage. its not op, just a different fight. you wont win by chosing the right moment for you big hitters and interrupting their important skills like you can with other classes, its just a different fight. annoying to some, fun for others but in the bigger picture of current combat design it is balanced.the only exception to this is every time a deadeye can oneshot his opponent with a backstab, but considering the kits of both opponents in these situations it is impossible to get a balance here without affecting their power against other builds massively.

if you ask for only changing stealth, it is about balance. then i do not agree with changing stealth. but if you ask about changes to stealth (stacking) as one part of reverting powercreep in all aspects of combat, then i am open for discussion but that would end in a very long list of changes.