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Why not release In-World 5-Man dungeons with Living World Maps?

Tzozef.9841

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Tasty Pudding.3764

Tasty Pudding.3764

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@"Linken.6345" said:And why dident you start invite new people to fill up your rooster instead of watching 1 then 2 then 3 4 5 leave?The dungeons are still there you can still do them, Hot was advertised with no dungeons so I dont see why your guild was clinging to a hope there would be any + the dungeon team had been dead for what 2 years before hot release?

Yeah we tried to do that, but people want to join a thriving guild, not one that is falling apart.

The "same old same old" stuff is fine as long as there is something new to look forward to every once in a while. If something is dead and abandoned it is inevitable that people will leave to find something else.

I'm not sure I see the point of the last part of your question. People were starting to eye the exits before the expansion was announced since dungeons had been replaced with fractals, but when the expansion was announced we could only speculate what would be in it until much later especially since the expansion itself was unexpected. Yes, we didn't need to wait until HoT was finally released to know that dungeons were still dead, but it's hard to leave a game that one has so much invested in, so people did wait to try out HoT and some tried out raids and found that neither of these made any difference and then they left.

The sad thing is that most of them tried a bunch of other games for a few months at a time trying to find a replacement: tera, skyforge, bdo, tso, ffxiv, wildstar, etc. None of them lasted very long because what they really wanted was gw2 with new dungeons. We had been happy with the gw2 dungeon scene for 2+ years. What a shame it was abandoned.

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Hyper Cutter.9376

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@Linken.6345 said:Considering you could do dungeons every day for good rewards and more times for a decent reward. ( myself I did Ac full run on 4 characters back in the day when tokens were char bound not account.)And you can do each raid bosses once a week for good reward, then nothing Im not sure that the dungeon community were ever bigger then the raiding one is now.It definitely was, or Anet wouldn't have found it necessary to gut dungeon rewards to drive people away from them. Which they openly admitted was what they were doing when they did it.

Dungeons occupied a unique niche in GW2, as mostly-accessible instanced content. They tried to fill that gap with low-level fractals, but they shot themselves in the foot because of the way fractal rewards work (not only do you get 1/2-1/4 of what the tiers above you get for the same content, the loot you do get is objectively worse).

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Linken.6345

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@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Linken.6345 said:Considering you could do dungeons every day for good rewards and more times for a decent reward. ( myself I did Ac full run on 4 characters back in the day when tokens were char bound not account.)And you can do each raid bosses once a week for good reward, then nothing Im not sure that the dungeon community were ever bigger then the raiding one is now.It definitely was, or Anet wouldn't have found it necessary to gut dungeon rewards to drive people away from them. Which they openly admitted was what they were doing when they did it.

Dungeons occupied a unique niche in GW2, as mostly-accessible instanced content. They tried to fill that gap with low-level fractals, but they shot themselves in the foot because of the way fractal rewards work (not only do you get 1/2-1/4 of what the tiers above you get for the same content, the loot you do get is objectively worse).

And still people ask for tiered raids, the same argument can be said there you do same content with 1/2-1/10 of the rewards people dont want to do that.

They dont seem to want to learn either just complain that the top tier is to hard.

Spent 4 hours trying to teach new people cm 100 yesterday, I joined on second boss we got it down in like 10 tries, then stuck on arkk untill I had to go and do my daily normal fractals before reset.We had a guard getting feared by the eye 95% of the time and this was even with me speaking over discord-eye look away.Chrono and mirage feedback so people dident have to worry about red balls and still we couldent do it.The orb phase instead of running to corner of pillar and dodging back weapon attacking the orb into the pillar we had 2 people running around behind the pillar to get orb close to it.

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zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

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zealex.9410

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@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Linken.6345 said:Considering you could do dungeons every day for good rewards and more times for a decent reward. ( myself I did Ac full run on 4 characters back in the day when tokens were char bound not account.)And you can do each raid bosses once a week for good reward, then nothing Im not sure that the dungeon community were ever bigger then the raiding one is now.It definitely was, or Anet wouldn't have found it necessary to gut dungeon rewards to drive people away from them. Which they openly admitted was what they were doing when they did it.

Dungeons occupied a unique niche in GW2, as mostly-accessible instanced content. They tried to fill that gap with low-level fractals, but they shot themselves in the foot because of the way fractal rewards work (not only do you get 1/2-1/4 of what the tiers above you get for the same content, the loot you do get is objectively worse).

(not only you get 1/2-1/4 of what the tiers above you get for doing harder content, the loot you get is objectively less) ftfy.

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Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

My confirmation bias is based on a lot more than just a few strangers saying stuff in twitch, thanks. Casuals are more numerous than hard core and objectively this game is getting less and less casual. It's not just raids. It's not just how the new T4 Fractals are (which are clearly harder than earlier fratals). You're missing the point entirely.

Even getting shiny rewards from holidays requires more grind and dedication than ever before. Tell me, for most players, what was there to actually grind for in the last Halloween? Same with Wintersday. Everything on offer was either a huge grind or very expensive. The game wasn't always like this. There used to be multiple rewards on multiple levels that meant something. Now it's bat shoulders and snow shoulders that require real dedication to get. The raids are just a visible symbol to a change in the game which I believe most players seem to have acknowledged but you seem to have missed completely. Raids, in and of themselves, require more time and preparation than dungeons. Getting 10 people together in an organised manner requires more time than getting five together.

Also you can't know what "people miss". You can say what you miss. Maybe what people like you miss. But since I've heard some people say they miss the casual nature of dungeons, I can only assume those people were not lying. In reality, perception is often a problem, rather than reality. Even those I agree T1 and T2 fractals are easy and rewarding, they're established as stepping stones to harder content, with ostensibly better rewards. Even in my own guild more people do T4 fractals than T1 fratals, because they want those rewards. It's a very small percentage of the guild, but when someone wants to do low level fractals, there are far less people to choose from, because those that do instanced content are looking for T4 fractals. When dungeons were a thing, that was never a problem. If you wanted to do a dungeon you usually found someone.

We still do dungeons for new players sometimes, but usually only in the busier guild hours, when more people are online. It wasn't always that way. Dungeons have the perception of being the more casual content.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

My confirmation bias is based on a lot more than just a few strangers saying stuff in twitch, thanks. Casuals are more numerous than hard core and objectively this game is getting less and less casual. It's not just raids. It's not just how the new T4 Fractals are (which are clearly harder than earlier fratals). You're missing the point entirely.

Even getting shiny rewards from holidays requires more grind and dedication than ever before. Tell me, for most players, what was there to actually grind for in the last Halloween? Same with Wintersday. Everything on offer was either a huge grind or very expensive. The game wasn't always like this. There used to be multiple rewards on multiple levels that meant something. Now it's bat shoulders and snow shoulders that require real dedication to get. The raids are just a visible symbol to a change in the game which I believe most players seem to have acknowledged but you seem to have missed completely. Raids, in and of themselves, require more time and preparation than dungeons. Getting 10 people together in an organised manner requires more time than getting five together.

Also you can't know what "people miss". You can say what you miss. Maybe what people like you miss. But since I've heard some people say they miss the casual nature of dungeons, I can only assume those people were not lying. In reality, perception is often a problem, rather than reality. Even those I agree T1 and T2 fractals are easy and rewarding, they're established as stepping stones to harder content, with ostensibly better rewards. Even in my own guild more people do T4 fractals than T1 fratals, because they want those rewards. It's a very small percentage of the guild, but when someone wants to do low level fractals, there are far less people to choose from, because those that do instanced content are looking for T4 fractals. When dungeons were a thing, that was never a problem. If you wanted to do a dungeon you usually found someone.

We still do dungeons for new players sometimes, but usually only in the busier guild hours, when more people are online. It wasn't always that way. Dungeons have the perception of being the more casual content.

That "problem" still existed but instead of tier it was with diff dungeons and paths all together.

Also something taking longer doesnt mean its harder to achieve. U cqn progress towards batand snow shoulders all year round at your own pace. Also i never said that thats what i though ppl miss from dungeons. Thats what iv been told ppl miss about them ans have seen been discussed in these very forums.

What ever reasoning u give to your claims can very easily aply to mine as well and here it does.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

My confirmation bias is based on a lot more than just a few strangers saying stuff in twitch, thanks. Casuals are more numerous than hard core and objectively this game is getting less and less casual. It's not just raids. It's not just how the new T4 Fractals are (which are clearly harder than earlier fratals). You're missing the point entirely.

Even getting shiny rewards from holidays requires more grind and dedication than ever before. Tell me, for most players, what was there to actually grind for in the last Halloween? Same with Wintersday. Everything on offer was either a huge grind or very expensive. The game wasn't always like this. There used to be multiple rewards on multiple levels that meant something. Now it's bat shoulders and snow shoulders that require real dedication to get. The raids are just a visible symbol to a change in the game which I believe most players seem to have acknowledged but you seem to have missed completely. Raids, in and of themselves, require more time and preparation than dungeons. Getting 10 people together in an organised manner requires more time than getting five together.

Also you can't know what "people miss". You can say what you miss. Maybe what people like you miss. But since I've heard some people say they miss the casual nature of dungeons, I can only assume those people were not lying. In reality, perception is often a problem, rather than reality. Even those I agree T1 and T2 fractals are easy and rewarding, they're established as stepping stones to harder content, with ostensibly better rewards. Even in my own guild more people do T4 fractals than T1 fratals, because they want those rewards. It's a very small percentage of the guild, but when someone wants to do low level fractals, there are far less people to choose from, because those that do instanced content are looking for T4 fractals. When dungeons were a thing, that was never a problem. If you wanted to do a dungeon you usually found someone.

We still do dungeons for new players sometimes, but usually only in the busier guild hours, when more people are online. It wasn't always that way. Dungeons have the perception of being the more casual content.

That "problem" still existed but instead of tier it was with diff dungeons and paths all together.

Also something taking longer doesnt mean its harder to achieve. U cqn progress towards batand snow shoulders all year round at your own pace. Also i never said that thats what i though ppl miss from dungeons. Thats what iv been told ppl miss about them ans have seen been discussed in these very forums.

What ever reasoning u give to your claims can very easily aply to mine as well and here it does.

That thread about the casual nature of the game went on for too long and had too many posts for me to believe this is just me having some confirmation bias. Maybe you don't remember it, but I sure do. I'm not sure what you're arguing with. My arguments are simple.

There are more casual players than hard core players. Do you agree or disagree?The game has gotten harder? Are you saying newer fractals aren't harder than original fractals? Are you saying Anet didn't have to nerf HoT because of complaints by people who basically solo and do nothing else?

People in this thread are saying raids are the only thing that people make videos of to advertise the game. How can you not believe that doesn't lead to a perception problem that the game is about raids?

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

My confirmation bias is based on a lot more than just a few strangers saying stuff in twitch, thanks. Casuals are more numerous than hard core and objectively this game is getting less and less casual. It's not just raids. It's not just how the new T4 Fractals are (which are clearly harder than earlier fratals). You're missing the point entirely.

Even getting shiny rewards from holidays requires more grind and dedication than ever before. Tell me, for most players, what was there to actually grind for in the last Halloween? Same with Wintersday. Everything on offer was either a huge grind or very expensive. The game wasn't always like this. There used to be multiple rewards on multiple levels that meant something. Now it's bat shoulders and snow shoulders that require real dedication to get. The raids are just a visible symbol to a change in the game which I believe most players seem to have acknowledged but you seem to have missed completely. Raids, in and of themselves, require more time and preparation than dungeons. Getting 10 people together in an organised manner requires more time than getting five together.

Also you can't know what "people miss". You can say what you miss. Maybe what people like you miss. But since I've heard some people say they miss the casual nature of dungeons, I can only assume those people were not lying. In reality, perception is often a problem, rather than reality. Even those I agree T1 and T2 fractals are easy and rewarding, they're established as stepping stones to harder content, with ostensibly better rewards. Even in my own guild more people do T4 fractals than T1 fratals, because they want those rewards. It's a very small percentage of the guild, but when someone wants to do low level fractals, there are far less people to choose from, because those that do instanced content are looking for T4 fractals. When dungeons were a thing, that was never a problem. If you wanted to do a dungeon you usually found someone.

We still do dungeons for new players sometimes, but usually only in the busier guild hours, when more people are online. It wasn't always that way. Dungeons have the perception of being the more casual content.

That "problem" still existed but instead of tier it was with diff dungeons and paths all together.

Also something taking longer doesnt mean its harder to achieve. U cqn progress towards batand snow shoulders all year round at your own pace. Also i never said that thats what i though ppl miss from dungeons. Thats what iv been told ppl miss about them ans have seen been discussed in these very forums.

What ever reasoning u give to your claims can very easily aply to mine as well and here it does.

That thread about the casual nature of the game went on for too long and had too many posts for me to believe this is just me having some confirmation bias. Maybe you don't remember it, but I sure do. I'm not sure what you're arguing with. My arguments are simple.

There are more casual players than hard core players. Do you agree or disagree?The game has gotten harder? Are you saying newer fractals aren't harder than original fractals? Are you saying Anet didn't have to nerf HoT because of complaints by people who basically solo and do nothing else?

People in this thread are saying raids are the only thing that people make videos of to advertise the game. How can you not believe that doesn't lead to a perception problem that the game is about raids?

There are more casual plays im pretty sure. There is also over all more things to do if your a casual that are targeted to casuals.

What you call harder is prob the devs trying to create more interesting ecounters (in fractals) and a more interactive open world. Their actions are centered alot of the time around the casual audience. Most of the time by seeing constant nerfs to encounters, mobs etc. (mfw interesting design is bad because its "anticasual")

Imho hot by my standarts didnt need a nerf but anet went ahead and did it anyways. I guess that shows how casual unfriendly this game has become.

"problem" i wouldnt call advertising raids in this game a problem. If i had to identify a problem i would say is the lack of ppl advertising the more casual aspects of the game. Thats not the failt of raids and ppl advertising them.

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Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

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First of all, you both (@zealex.9410 & @Vayne.8563) need to learn to quote because you create a totally unreadable thread here. Time to report that thing to be closedSecond,

@Vayne.8563 said:The game has gotten harder? Are you saying newer fractals aren't harder than original fractals?yes, original fractals were very much harder than the actual T4 stuff. TO was nerfed in the latest patch and unless you are not very inexperienced you should get this frac done with the new checkpoint(s). Shattered Observatory is a breeze on 100 & 75 if you adjust your special action key properly and learn to play the mechanics which is again not very hard (remember we are outside from challenge mode!). Nightmare and Chaos are easy as well and trouble-free.

The change to HoT was indeed somewhat needed although I think some things should be canceled right back whereas other things like the champs for hero points should be converted to veterans. Also, we don't need to forget that at the beginning people didn't have the elite specs and came into the HoT maps with their core Tyria builds. With HoT specs and the knowledge what is good and what is bad the maps are in a very casual shape.

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Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

Way to miss the point. There aren't enough hard core players to keep this game going. We don't have ENOUGH raids to compete with WoW or FF XIV. It's not the strength of this game. Casual was the strength of this game. We didn't get more players going more hard core. We just lost the identity of the game. And it cost the company. Revenues went down because the game got more hard core. Not because we have so many raiders.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

My confirmation bias is based on a lot more than just a few strangers saying stuff in twitch, thanks. Casuals are more numerous than hard core and objectively this game is getting less and less casual. It's not just raids. It's not just how the new T4 Fractals are (which are clearly harder than earlier fratals). You're missing the point entirely.

Even getting shiny rewards from holidays requires more grind and dedication than ever before. Tell me, for most players, what was there to actually grind for in the last Halloween? Same with Wintersday. Everything on offer was either a huge grind or very expensive. The game wasn't always like this. There used to be multiple rewards on multiple levels that meant something. Now it's bat shoulders and snow shoulders that require real dedication to get. The raids are just a visible symbol to a change in the game which I believe most players seem to have acknowledged but you seem to have missed completely. Raids, in and of themselves, require more time and preparation than dungeons. Getting 10 people together in an organised manner requires more time than getting five together.

Also you can't know what "people miss". You can say what you miss. Maybe what people like you miss. But since I've heard some people say they miss the casual nature of dungeons, I can only assume those people were not lying. In reality, perception is often a problem, rather than reality. Even those I agree T1 and T2 fractals are easy and rewarding, they're established as stepping stones to harder content, with ostensibly better rewards. Even in my own guild more people do T4 fractals than T1 fratals, because they want those rewards. It's a very small percentage of the guild, but when someone wants to do low level fractals, there are far less people to choose from, because those that do instanced content are looking for T4 fractals. When dungeons were a thing, that was never a problem. If you wanted to do a dungeon you usually found someone.

We still do dungeons for new players sometimes, but usually only in the busier guild hours, when more people are online. It wasn't always that way. Dungeons have the perception of being the more casual content.

That "problem" still existed but instead of tier it was with diff dungeons and paths all together.

Also something taking longer doesnt mean its harder to achieve. U cqn progress towards batand snow shoulders all year round at your own pace. Also i never said that thats what i though ppl miss from dungeons. Thats what iv been told ppl miss about them ans have seen been discussed in these very forums.

What ever reasoning u give to your claims can very easily aply to mine as well and here it does.

That thread about the casual nature of the game went on for too long and had too many posts for me to believe this is just me having some confirmation bias. Maybe you don't remember it, but I sure do. I'm not sure what you're arguing with. My arguments are simple.

There are more casual players than hard core players. Do you agree or disagree?The game has gotten harder? Are you saying newer fractals aren't harder than original fractals? Are you saying Anet didn't have to nerf HoT because of complaints by people who basically solo and do nothing else?

People in this thread are saying raids are the only thing that people make videos of to advertise the game. How can you not believe that doesn't lead to a perception problem that the game is about raids?

There are more casual plays im pretty sure. There is also over all more things to do if your a casual that are targeted to casuals.

What you call harder is prob the devs trying to create more interesting ecounters (in fractals) and a more interactive open world. Their actions are centered alot of the time around the casual audience. Most of the time by seeing constant nerfs to encounters, mobs etc. (mfw interesting design is bad because its "anticasual")

Imho hot by my standarts didnt need a nerf but anet went ahead and did it anyways. I guess that shows how casual unfriendly this game has become.

"problem" i wouldnt call advertising raids in this game a problem. If i had to identify a problem i would say is the lack of ppl advertising the more casual aspects of the game. Thats not the failt of raids and ppl advertising them.

Now this I agree with. The devs aren't pushing casual. They're pushing hard core. It's what's talked about and advertised. And they lose a lot by doing so. If all the videos are hard core and all the adds are hard core...well that's why the friends compaign is probably going to help a bit. But it's not enough because so many casuals often solo.

Frankly the problem is an image problem not an "actual" problem. But the devs need to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. From my point of view and many others, I know I'm far from alone in this, this game is no longer focused on the causal player. And that was a big selling point for some of us. It starts to make you question if this is still your game, and that's bad for the game.

Edit: And yes I do believe the move away from dungeons is at least part of that.

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@Vinceman.4572 said:First of all, you both (@zealex.9410 & @Vayne.8563) need to learn to quote because you create a totally unreadable thread here. Time to report that thing to be closedSecond,

@Vayne.8563 said:The game has gotten harder? Are you saying newer fractals aren't harder than original fractals?yes, original fractals were very much harder than the actual T4 stuff. TO was nerfed in the latest patch and unless you are not very inexperienced you should get this frac done with the new checkpoint(s). Shattered Observatory is a breeze on 100 & 75 if you adjust your special action key properly and learn to play the mechanics which is again not very hard (remember we are outside from challenge mode!). Nightmare and Chaos are easy as well and trouble-free.

The change to HoT was indeed somewhat needed although I think some things should be canceled right back whereas other things like the champs for hero points should be converted to veterans. Also, we don't need to forget that at the beginning people didn't have the elite specs and came into the HoT maps with their core Tyria builds. With HoT specs and the knowledge what is good and what is bad the maps are in a very casual shape.

I found the original fractals easier. That is to say, Tier 1 fractals are easier than any of the original fractals but I find Tier 4 harder than they used to be. Not the old ones, but the new ones.

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zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

My confirmation bias is based on a lot more than just a few strangers saying stuff in twitch, thanks. Casuals are more numerous than hard core and objectively this game is getting less and less casual. It's not just raids. It's not just how the new T4 Fractals are (which are clearly harder than earlier fratals). You're missing the point entirely.

Even getting shiny rewards from holidays requires more grind and dedication than ever before. Tell me, for most players, what was there to actually grind for in the last Halloween? Same with Wintersday. Everything on offer was either a huge grind or very expensive. The game wasn't always like this. There used to be multiple rewards on multiple levels that meant something. Now it's bat shoulders and snow shoulders that require real dedication to get. The raids are just a visible symbol to a change in the game which I believe most players seem to have acknowledged but you seem to have missed completely. Raids, in and of themselves, require more time and preparation than dungeons. Getting 10 people together in an organised manner requires more time than getting five together.

Also you can't know what "people miss". You can say what you miss. Maybe what people like you miss. But since I've heard some people say they miss the casual nature of dungeons, I can only assume those people were not lying. In reality, perception is often a problem, rather than reality. Even those I agree T1 and T2 fractals are easy and rewarding, they're established as stepping stones to harder content, with ostensibly better rewards. Even in my own guild more people do T4 fractals than T1 fratals, because they want those rewards. It's a very small percentage of the guild, but when someone wants to do low level fractals, there are far less people to choose from, because those that do instanced content are looking for T4 fractals. When dungeons were a thing, that was never a problem. If you wanted to do a dungeon you usually found someone.

We still do dungeons for new players sometimes, but usually only in the busier guild hours, when more people are online. It wasn't always that way. Dungeons have the perception of being the more casual content.

That "problem" still existed but instead of tier it was with diff dungeons and paths all together.

Also something taking longer doesnt mean its harder to achieve. U cqn progress towards batand snow shoulders all year round at your own pace. Also i never said that thats what i though ppl miss from dungeons. Thats what iv been told ppl miss about them ans have seen been discussed in these very forums.

What ever reasoning u give to your claims can very easily aply to mine as well and here it does.

That thread about the casual nature of the game went on for too long and had too many posts for me to believe this is just me having some confirmation bias. Maybe you don't remember it, but I sure do. I'm not sure what you're arguing with. My arguments are simple.

There are more casual players than hard core players. Do you agree or disagree?The game has gotten harder? Are you saying newer fractals aren't harder than original fractals? Are you saying Anet didn't have to nerf HoT because of complaints by people who basically solo and do nothing else?

People in this thread are saying raids are the only thing that people make videos of to advertise the game. How can you not believe that doesn't lead to a perception problem that the game is about raids?

There are more casual plays im pretty sure. There is also over all more things to do if your a casual that are targeted to casuals.

What you call harder is prob the devs trying to create more interesting ecounters (in fractals) and a more interactive open world. Their actions are centered alot of the time around the casual audience. Most of the time by seeing constant nerfs to encounters, mobs etc. (mfw interesting design is bad because its "anticasual")

Imho hot by my standarts didnt need a nerf but anet went ahead and did it anyways. I guess that shows how casual unfriendly this game has become.

"problem" i wouldnt call advertising raids in this game a problem. If i had to identify a problem i would say is the lack of ppl advertising the more casual aspects of the game. Thats not the failt of raids and ppl advertising them.

Now this I agree with. The devs aren't pushing casual. They're pushing hard core. It's what's talked about and advertised. And they lose a lot by doing so. If all the videos are hard core and all the adds are hard core...well that's why the friends compaign is probably going to help a bit. But it's not enough because so many casuals often solo.

Frankly the problem is an image problem not an "actual" problem. But the devs need to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. From my point of view and many others, I know I'm far from alone in this, this game is no longer focused on the causal player. And that was a big selling point for some of us. It starts to make you question if this is still your game, and that's bad for the game.

Edit: And yes I do believe the move away from dungeons is at least part of that.

Like u keep saying the game is more focushed on hardcore but i dont see any proof of that not in their content releases nor the things they promote on sites like twitter, youtube and even adds.

U could say they try to apeal to the more dedicated audience by making some more challenging content. But by far what gets released more is casual content.

Also im sorry but like the things their friendships vids promoted so far are like map completions guilds and friends that do map completion. How more casual can u get than that?

Casuals arent introverts by default.

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.

Ppl dont miss the causla nature of dungeons as thats available elsewhere already. Ppl miss the design that went into dungeons. And that something both casuals and hardcore players quit over. If your guild or anyone's quit because they seemingly lost their easy content then they are sadly wrong as t2 fractals are basically that.

Nah i see the complains about frqctals being too hard at times even lw being too hard and ofc raids being oo hard. But what did you expect from raids? They are advertised as hard content, content that ppl thought they would get with dungeons but didnt get and so continued asking for.

Id like to remind you theres prob a thread around still about a guy complaining even after the expansion powercreeps and the breakbar that dungeons are overtuned and too hard...

Theres also daily comments of ppl talking about how t4 fractals are a joke and how raid tent to be easy. Or how they want a hardmode for lw missions. Both from ingame ppl and here in the forums.

But id assume your "confirmation bias" prevented u from noticing? I dont remember that "gw2 is no longer casual thread" but like with everything here id assume half those pages were ppl argueing the opposite.

My confirmation bias is based on a lot more than just a few strangers saying stuff in twitch, thanks. Casuals are more numerous than hard core and objectively this game is getting less and less casual. It's not just raids. It's not just how the new T4 Fractals are (which are clearly harder than earlier fratals). You're missing the point entirely.

Even getting shiny rewards from holidays requires more grind and dedication than ever before. Tell me, for most players, what was there to actually grind for in the last Halloween? Same with Wintersday. Everything on offer was either a huge grind or very expensive. The game wasn't always like this. There used to be multiple rewards on multiple levels that meant something. Now it's bat shoulders and snow shoulders that require real dedication to get. The raids are just a visible symbol to a change in the game which I believe most players seem to have acknowledged but you seem to have missed completely. Raids, in and of themselves, require more time and preparation than dungeons. Getting 10 people together in an organised manner requires more time than getting five together.

Also you can't know what "people miss". You can say what you miss. Maybe what people like you miss. But since I've heard some people say they miss the casual nature of dungeons, I can only assume those people were not lying. In reality, perception is often a problem, rather than reality. Even those I agree T1 and T2 fractals are easy and rewarding, they're established as stepping stones to harder content, with ostensibly better rewards. Even in my own guild more people do T4 fractals than T1 fratals, because they want those rewards. It's a very small percentage of the guild, but when someone wants to do low level fractals, there are far less people to choose from, because those that do instanced content are looking for T4 fractals. When dungeons were a thing, that was never a problem. If you wanted to do a dungeon you usually found someone.

We still do dungeons for new players sometimes, but usually only in the busier guild hours, when more people are online. It wasn't always that way. Dungeons have the perception of being the more casual content.

That "problem" still existed but instead of tier it was with diff dungeons and paths all together.

Also something taking longer doesnt mean its harder to achieve. U cqn progress towards batand snow shoulders all year round at your own pace. Also i never said that thats what i though ppl miss from dungeons. Thats what iv been told ppl miss about them ans have seen been discussed in these very forums.

What ever reasoning u give to your claims can very easily aply to mine as well and here it does.

That thread about the casual nature of the game went on for too long and had too many posts for me to believe this is just me having some confirmation bias. Maybe you don't remember it, but I sure do. I'm not sure what you're arguing with. My arguments are simple.

There are more casual players than hard core players. Do you agree or disagree?The game has gotten harder? Are you saying newer fractals aren't harder than original fractals? Are you saying Anet didn't have to nerf HoT because of complaints by people who basically solo and do nothing else?

People in this thread are saying raids are the only thing that people make videos of to advertise the game. How can you not believe that doesn't lead to a perception problem that the game is about raids?

There are more casual plays im pretty sure. There is also over all more things to do if your a casual that are targeted to casuals.

What you call harder is prob the devs trying to create more interesting ecounters (in fractals) and a more interactive open world. Their actions are centered alot of the time around the casual audience. Most of the time by seeing constant nerfs to encounters, mobs etc. (mfw interesting design is bad because its "anticasual")

Imho hot by my standarts didnt need a nerf but anet went ahead and did it anyways. I guess that shows how casual unfriendly this game has become.

"problem" i wouldnt call advertising raids in this game a problem. If i had to identify a problem i would say is the lack of ppl advertising the more casual aspects of the game. Thats not the failt of raids and ppl advertising them.

Now this I agree with. The devs aren't pushing casual. They're pushing hard core. It's what's talked about and advertised. And they lose a lot by doing so. If all the videos are hard core and all the adds are hard core...well that's why the friends compaign is probably going to help a bit. But it's not enough because so many casuals often solo.

Frankly the problem is an image problem not an "actual" problem. But the devs need to figure out which side their bread is buttered on. From my point of view and many others, I know I'm far from alone in this, this game is no longer focused on the causal player. And that was a big selling point for some of us. It starts to make you question if this is still your game, and that's bad for the game.

Edit: And yes I do believe the move away from dungeons is at least part of that.

Like u keep saying the game is more focushed on hardcore but i dont see any proof of that not in their content releases nor the things they promote on sites like twitter, youtube and even adds.

U could say they try to apeal to the more dedicated audience than they did before by making some more challenging content. But by far what gets released more is casual content.

Also im sorry but like the things their friendships vids promoted so far are like map completions guilds and friends that do map completion. How more casual can u get than that?

Casuals arent introverts by default.
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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@zealex.9410 said:

Casuals arent introverts by default.

You'd have to prove that to me. Many people who solo are casual and many of those don't like socializing. That makes them introverts. Because if you weren't an introvert why would you want to solo? And we know a ton of people solo.

The game has a perception problem. Anet does NOT advertise content to be casual. They advertise challenging content and keep mentioning it. They never say content is easy or casual. There was a period of time when you came into the game and in big orange letters on your event tracker were the new raid and the PvP season. That's what you saw and you couldn't turn it off.

If you think that sells a casual message, I'm not sure what to tell you. And because story instances have gotten harder, some people that are casual aren't even looking forward to those.

Again, this is not an actual problem but it's absolutely a perceptual one.

edit: This is getting way off topic. My original argument was about dungeons and how they were more casual than fractals, which they are because you don't have to know as much to enter them. The appearance of them is different. I mean Fractals are LISTED as 80th level content even though a lower level guy could do low level fractals. It even upscales your level. But Anet doesn't advertise that. Dungeons start at level 30. You can do dungeons while you level. Fractals are advertised as end game content. I talk to casuals all day every day. You don't have to believe me when I say the game is getting harder and harder for them, but it is. I'll not post any more on the matter. Hard core people have no idea what casuals need or don't need, so I don't even know why people who aren't casual feel qualified to comment on how hard core or casual the game is.

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@Vayne.8563 said:

Casuals arent introverts by default.

You'd have to prove that to me. Many people who solo are casual and many of those don't like socializing. That makes them introverts. Because if you weren't an introvert why would you want to solo? And we know a ton of people solo.

The game has a perception problem. Anet does NOT advertise content to be casual. They advertise challenging content and keep mentioning it. They never say content is easy or casual. There was a period of time when you came into the game and in big orange letters on your event tracker were the new raid and the PvP season. That's what you saw and you couldn't turn it off.

If you think that sells a casual message, I'm not sure what to tell you. And because story instances have gotten harder, some people that are casual aren't even looking forward to those.

Again, this is not an actual problem but it's absolutely a perceptual one.

Idk for a while all we got was raids and pvp seasons so that sounds realistic. But you are right, if they advertise something in game it should be only casual of its something abit harder then its obv hardcore and therefor spoils the character of the game.

Most of the time what i see are art streams or streams of the devs playing through the lw update(never have i see them play the raids except for fundraising...)

Also, id assume casual is the player that doesnt play for much time due to other responcibilities or w/e. WoodenPotatoes was talking about hard content bck when w4 came out and he mentioned how he did every night cms or raids with a surgeon who logged in for like 1:30-2 hours a day before he go to bed after he put his kids to sleep.

Theres diff between casuals and less skilled players or casuals and introverts. Sure theres a high chance that many casuals fall under one or both of these categories but its genually bad to assume such stuff when discussing such importand matters. Bit their design philosophy still caters to the less skilled. You can see that on how they fucking nerf everything in this game after player feedback. Even raids in some cases (not by too much so they still keep their title)

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