Why not release In-World 5-Man dungeons with Living World Maps?

[mazut.4296]

Yes, I'm missing normal dungeons a lot. But they say, they lack people and their priorities lie somewhere else.

[Vayne.8563]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

[Unicorn Luna.5204]

In relation to more content for 5man parties, I agree. IMO this is another case where anet could take a huge leaf out of GW1 and have normal/hard modes. Dungeons could have hard mode versions, raids could have normal mode 5man versions, in fact the entire game could be split... just like gw1. There! Casuals and hardcore players all satisfied. Of course it would be a lot of work to duplicate everything and fiddle with the difficulty and reward levels but this near-to-being-6-year-old complaint of casual/elite content would be solved in one fell swoop.

[Xantaria.8726]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

[Vayne.8563]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

[Xantaria.8726]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

[Xantaria.8726]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

So instead of starting with shutting down something again, i would rather go with this route: Do both, rotating the team to do a new raid, afterwards a new dungeon, then a new raid etc. Cause lets be real, anet dont have the resources to do both. But i believe many would be font of if they bring out new dungeons with a reworked system behind it.

[Lahmia.2193]

Elitism in fractals? Sorry if you think it is elitist at the moment, you must have not seen the old 50s or when dungeon were more of a thing. Sure there are groups that ask for certain meta, but the majority are just bring whatever pug groups.

[Vayne.8563]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

[Xantaria.8726]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

[Vayne.8563]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

[Tasty Pudding.3764]

@"Vayne.8563" said:I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Dungeons were the glue that held my guild together. They were the most social PvE aspect of the game since release and the main thing people wanted to do as a guild. There was no progression or tiered reward structure to divide guild members. We did other things, too, but the default activity was "Anybody want to do a dungeon?"

We kept playing the old dungeons hoping that some day new dungeons would arrive to keep things fresh, especially when it was finally announced there would be an expansion. But no such luck. 80% of my guild left the game when HOT arrived without any new dungeons and without any hope of future dungeons.

Of the people that stayed, we had a group of 11-12 players that formed a regular raid squad for a while, but inevitably a player here and a player there would drop out due to time conflicts or just waning interest. Once we were down to exactly 10 raiders, that was the end in short order. There would almost always be somebody that couldn't make it at the scheduled time so we would be short-handed and eventually people realized it wasn't worth bothering to show up when more than likely there wouldn't be enough people to do the raid anyway.

[Linken.6345]

@Tasty Pudding.3764 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Dungeons were the glue that held my guild together. They were the most social PvE aspect of the game since release and the main thing people wanted to do as a guild. There was no progression or tiered reward structure to divide guild members. We did other things, too, but the default activity was "Anybody want to do a dungeon?"

We kept playing the old dungeons hoping that some day new dungeons would arrive to keep things fresh, especially when it was finally announced there would be an expansion. But no such luck. 80% of my guild left the game when HOT arrived without any new dungeons and without any hope of future dungeons.

Of the people that stayed, we had a group of 11-12 players that formed a regular raid squad for a while, but inevitably a player here and a player there would drop out due to time conflicts or just waning interest. Once we were down to exactly 10 raiders, that was the end in short order. There would almost always be somebody that couldn't make it at the scheduled time so we would be short-handed and eventually people realized it wasn't worth bothering to show up when more than likely there wouldn't be enough people to do the raid anyway.

And why dident you start invite new people to fill up your rooster instead of watching 1 then 2 then 3 4 5 leave?The dungeons are still there you can still do them, Hot was advertised with no dungeons so I dont see why your guild was clinging to a hope there would be any + the dungeon team had been dead for what 2 years before hot release?

[Vayne.8563]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

[Vayne.8563]

@Tasty Pudding.3764 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Dungeons were the glue that held my guild together. They were the most social PvE aspect of the game since release and the main thing people wanted to do as a guild. There was no progression or tiered reward structure to divide guild members. We did other things, too, but the default activity was "Anybody want to do a dungeon?"

We kept playing the old dungeons hoping that some day new dungeons would arrive to keep things fresh, especially when it was finally announced there would be an expansion. But no such luck. 80% of my guild left the game when HOT arrived without any new dungeons and without any hope of future dungeons.

Of the people that stayed, we had a group of 11-12 players that formed a regular raid squad for a while, but inevitably a player here and a player there would drop out due to time conflicts or just waning interest. Once we were down to exactly 10 raiders, that was the end in short order. There would almost always be somebody that couldn't make it at the scheduled time so we would be short-handed and eventually people realized it wasn't worth bothering to show up when more than likely there wouldn't be enough people to do the raid anyway.

Yep this is exactly what I'm talking about. The buy in for raids is often too high for casual players.

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

[Deimos.4263]

@"Westenev.5289" said:Personally, I would rather have Anet focusing on creating 1(+1) man "dungeons" like they have been doing in the Living World releases. ;)This. I only rarely encounter elitism in solo play. Ok, sometimes I require a gear check or kick.

[Vayne.8563]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

[Vayne.8563]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

[Linken.6345]

Considering you could do dungeons every day for good rewards and more times for a decent reward. ( myself I did Ac full run on 4 characters back in the day when tokens were char bound not account.)And you can do each raid bosses once a week for good reward, then nothing Im not sure that the dungeon community were ever bigger then the raiding one is now.

[zealex.9410]

@Linken.6345 said:Considering you could do dungeons every day for good rewards and more times for a decent reward. ( myself I did Ac full run on 4 characters back in the day when tokens were char bound not account.)And you can do each raid bosses once a week for good reward, then nothing Im not sure that the dungeon community were ever bigger then the raiding one is now.

? Its not only raids. Its raids fractals lw maps expac maps/metas etc.

[Vayne.8563]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I still guarantee more people ran dungeons than ever ran raids. It's because raids require 10 men and a lot of people find it easier to field five. And they were less restrictive, without a need for specific roles. My casual guild can run every dungeon in the game casually. We don't have the same option with raids.

If you're just looking for 5 men content you have fractals. They are meant as aquivalent to old dungeons, are less restrictive as well and you have 4 tiers to play. Totally not an argument of letting raids down.I stand by my word. If you kill raids for new dungeons you'll lose the whole player base that wants a little bit of challenging content in GW2 and the few peeps that'll run dungeons for that are not enough to justify that. You must never forget that in their peak time dungeon haven't been played because they were awesome. The only reason was the easy gold income. Heck, most of those just ran AC, TA and the easy paths of CoF and SE due to being very easy money. No casual played HoTW, CM, CoE and Arah on a regular basis. I did, daily routine and you met the same players over and over again.

I'm not disagreeing that we'll lose people. I'm saying that we'll lose less people than the other way around. The barrier to entry in dungeons was pretty much nothing. Fractals has a slightly higher entry barrier, because of the way agony works. Fractals isn't just enter and go. You have to know stuff. It's a barrier to entry. Dungeons by contrast were more accessible to more people.

There's an entire community of people who used to run dungeons, many of whom left the game because they didn't like Fractals. I'm not one of those people. I like fractals more than dungeons, but I know people who don't.

The bottom line is, if 10% of the game's population raids, and all 10% leave the game, there's no real way to tell about how many people would stay if there were new dungeons instead of those raids.

Games are always going to lose people. I used to run a computer store and we stopped carrying mac stuff. We lost some customers based on that. But we useed that space to sell console games. We gained a lot more business.

Unless you can make a case that there are more raiders than people who prefer new dungeons, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Well beacuse one reason: most players who did dungeons switched to raids. I know many guilds who used to run dungeons in the past, had myself one and we runned all paths in around 2-3h. But most didnt do it because it was the best think. Most did it for those reasons:-best gold income-only viable content at that time which was a little more challenging then open world pve

Fracs did come later and used to be annoying as well before they were reworked many times. The reason why many players left was of course the reward nerf, no question. However, many of exact those players returned for raids and those who were still running dungeons switched from being a dungeon guild to being raid guilds, i can tell you that. And no, i dont have any player numbers, but neither do you. What i can tell though that those wont return for new dungeons if they didnt return for raids.Another thing, if you sure that the players who actual raid are not many, check the raid lfg a whole week.Another thing: raiders dont exclusive do raids and nothing else. almost every raider is just as happy when a living world episode is coming out, cause guess what: you can only kill each boss 1x/week. Meaning you again would have nothing to do the rest of the week when you dont do anything else. Neither are all "casuals" only playing open world maps and farm mats.Saying that when giving up raids entirely, it would be fine cause ppl who liked dungeons would return for them is not really correct. Many are raiding for a better challenge, but there are also many who are raiding for the loot which can be optained there, being asc gear in generel or the exclusive skins, minis and items (portal device). Also being able to do ~50g in 2 hours once a week. In order to swift those players back to dungeons again, those dungeons should at least have a similiar reward and challenge, otherwise you wont be getting those players back who you said would return for dungeons, cause those who would return returned for raids, and those who didnt at that time wont return anyway.So the situation is this: Giving up raids with a not so small community for dungeons with a not so high reward and difficulty, giving up not the biggest part, but not an unimportant part of players in gw2, just cause some players want for the story a 5-man-content(which they already do by simply doing the story in a 5-man-group), or giving up raids by adding difficult, but very rewarding lw dungeons, build for 5-man-groups, which, guess what, those who want dungeons over raids wont run cause they are either to hard or cause the raid community will start running those after they killed the old raid bosses, bringing their "elitism" (cough progressive mindset cough) which many casual players are not so good to talk though these days. Or just leave everything as it is.

I don't think this is true at all. Most guilds that did dungeons as guilds may have switched to raids, but I have many people in my guild who used to do dungeons, including me, who never switched to raids. I not only believe this is false, but I believe it's overwhelmingly false.

You might be talking about efficient dungeon speed runners, but like raiding, they were a tiny part of the community.

That said I don't believe a majority of the game did dungeons, But I do believe far more people did dungeons than raids.

Nope, i am not talking about speed running guilds like qt or sc. And saying just cause one guild is not doing it then most other didnt is in my opinion not an argument.Did more people do dunegons then raids? Tbh, i cant actual say, cause both communitys are compered big, and comparing the lfgs from the past with the raid lfg right now, i would guess there are similiar. But how are you supposed to tell that if you dont even raid? You have no feeling at all how many actual raid, so pls dont make any assumptions in this direction.Also, i didnt say that all players switched from dungeons to raids. Only that most of those who stayed in gw2 after they nerfed dungeons did. And i can tell that many did that, i was in many guilds who did dungeons, still have contact with some players of those, and looking into all those discord servers with over thousands of players who want to learn or do raids, i can assure you: my statemant about how the situation can be when they remove raids for new dungeons is not so far of. Cause people wont run dungeons just for the feeling when they end up putting effort in it for 2h and getting nothing out of it.

I am not saying that i wouldnt mind switching raids to dungeons when they rework the dungeonsystem completly. I am just saying that it wont end up though like many maybe want it, that being that those dungeons wont be done more then 1 time when neither the reward and challenge is given like some already stated here, ending in dungeons which are not visited anymore while people who mainly run raids and only stay cause of them will leave the game.

I don't actually believe if every raider left the game it would make a signfiicant dent in the population. But the tendency of the game to get harder and harder can in fact turn off a lot of casuals. The more that's beyond a given person the more disenfranchised they feel. I used to love everything in this game but PvP. Now I love everything in this game but PvP and raids. But there are plenty of people who don't like PvP, raids, and the harder content of the living story. The more you put beyond the casual audience the more people will stop seeing this game as "theirs". That's the real danger here.

IMO the game was quite easy before HoT came out and we had a bigger population. Hot's difficulty and raids didn't bring more people to the game. It drove people away from the game. So much so that Anet went and revamped HoT to make it more soloable and easier. Of course by then the horse was already out of the barn. There was no getting it back. Same with the dungeon reward nerf. In my opinion those were bad marketing decisions made by Anet who thought there were enough hard core players to make those changes.

But in the end, I don't believe we have more players now than then. I think the tendency to move to hard core content cost the game more than it made the game.

In the end you are trying to blame another part of the games content for making this game in your opinion "bad". I could say the same about pvp. Or WvW. Or Fractals. By shutting down one and switching the devs to one of the remaining those of course will came out faster. But this wont change the style "how" the will come out. LW Episodes will come out in 1,5 months instead of 3, but the desgin will stay the same. And then? Will you start blaming the next content for making your favorite content bad and suggest to shut down another? The casual content didnt change since living world season 2 (which was before HoT), still releasing episodes every 3 months. If you are unhappy with the quality of the content thats one thing, but anet stated themself that for those who seek a challange raids were made, BUT the generel open world pve will still keep its difficulty. Which it did. I still breeze though the story in 2h whenever a new episode is released.

Nah, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the game is bad. I'm saying that I'm less in love with it than I was before raids and that there are people I know, casual players, who are even further less in love with it than I am. You can only change a product so much without losing the core player base. Unfortunately with MMOs the core player base is the most important player base because it's less likely to get new players to replace them IN SUFFICIENT NUMBERS. That's the key word.

Sure people came here to raid. But then you have hard core groups like QT who raided for a while and left the game because there weren't enough raids. So haven't the raids is not helping ALL hard core players, just as it's not pissing off all casual players. But when you take the given that casual players are more numerous than hard core players, and I believe that can be read as fact for most MMOs, then you run into the problem of percentages. If 10% of casuals leave, in my opinion, that would be a much much bigger deal than if 10% of raiders leave, and we know people from both groups have left over time, in part to the reasons in the conversation we have.

You're trying to make it sound like my dissatisfaction with the game doesn't matter, because you yourself is satisfied. That would be true if my demographic was smaller than your demographic. But I'm not 100% sure that's the case.

"Your demographic" doesnt advertise the game to the outside world. Rarelly ppl will make vids like tequatl clear or normal fractal/dungeons runs.

They are hardly noteworthy and nobody will care to watch. On the other hand clearing raids and being really good at it or low mannong stuff, clearing high tier fractals fast is the most noteworthy thing u can do in this game.

And yet PvP videos and raid videos, even though they advertise in the outside world, will mislead people like me, who look at a game, see nothing but these videos and never try the game. It works both ways. If most people are casual and the only videos out there are hard core, you're not getting the people that will enjoy the bulk of the game. You'll be getting QT people, most of whom are already playing a different game.

Yes u are getting more hardcore ppl who will keep advertising it. Also why wouldnt someone casual play something else before trying gw2?

What they're advertising is a game that I wouldn't play though. How does that do me a lick of good? And if it actively stops people from playing the game because they believe it's only about raids or PvP, then who is actually being helped.

You think getting people who would be attracted to raids into the game is good. I say it's only good if it's not at the expense of getting casuals into the game. I believe it might be.

It doesnt but then again casual players arent advertising it either so u wouldnt know that this game is casual friendly anyways. So better to get some exposure than none. And no its not at the expense of casuals because the game didnt abandon easy content 80% of the game is easy content. Open world/ world bosses/ metas, dungeons and lower tier fractals all of these are things casuals can do. And the best part is theres no gear treadmill so they arent getting outclassed.

Meanwhile anet also caters to the hardcore albeit less since they are less so they also get to enjoy any income from that demographic as well. Also dungeons didnt die because they shifted their focus on raids they died because they shifted their focus on fractals.

By your own words the game is still played by casuals mostly and hardcore players are less. That means that despite the 2 years of raids the game still grew with casuals remaining the dominant demographic (id assume since almost everyone thats not into hard content loves to bring it up). Id take that as a sign that anet manages to cater to the casual audience sucessfully so the game sees growth even now. (look at milestones that were released with pof and to monthly income from q4 of 2017)

Pretty sure that most casual players don't troll sights looking for video, but I did see at least one post on reddit where a guy was hesistant to come to the game because it looked like it was a hard core game. If one person thinks that way than others likely will too.

But most casual players won't do the research to begin with. And I still think more casuals will be turned off by the type of promotion that raids/and PVP provide than the amount of hard core players that will come to this game. After all, there are tons of games with raids. There are very few advertised for casuals. That was this game's niche for a long time. Since it's left that niche, I don't believe it's done better.

U saw 1 guy on reddit i see 4 or 5 ppl every day on twitch asking about the game and showing interest in it. And hey good thing that he came to reddit to ask ppl can tell him now that thats not the case and that theres only optional hard content. Now he can go share that with his friends and other ppl likeminded with him .^^ Also, excuse me but "this game's niche was that it was casual, since its left that niche i dont believe its done better" The vast majority of the content in the game is catered to casuals, the developers every time they decide to advertise their game their present it as such by either their friendship trailers or with Mo stating that this game respects you and doesnt devalue your hard earned lvls and gear.

Explain me how a new raid every 6-10 months sudenly made the game non casual. God forbid the players that love this game so much that they want more of it in terms of challenge speak their mind. I really dont care about your background u might have been casual for all your time playing games or u were more hardcore and decided to turn casual but its not your job to pick what others want to experience (esp when that doesnt take away from the rest of the game (as its clearly evident for th last 2+ years). Telling them to go play elsewhere if they want harder content is the same as me telling casuals to go play farmville. None of us has that right.

Because casuals DON'T post. They're casual. They might read, but they don't post. They don't have enough horses in the race or enough confidence TO post. You see five people asking about the game on twitch. I see five players complaining every time a living story comes out that it's too hard, and that's quite far from a raid.

One of the longest running threads that spanned dozens of pages, probably more, was a thread about the game not being casual anymore. We get posts all the time about dungeons making a comeback. I've seen lots of people in my own casual guild getting more frustrated with the game every time there's a release.

You know what comfirmation bias is? Because that's what you've got here. There's plenty of complaint about raids, but the game being too hard now, or not casual enough. The only way you can not see them is if you're not looking and most casuals will NOT be posting. Most casuals will find another game without ever saying a single word.