PVE - Is malice now useless for p/p deadeye ?

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@"Specialka.7290" said:You do not need to have a great build for Open world.

I do not understand what ppl finds fun in a one button build. I tried it for a few hours, but it is even more boring than the malice system with rifle before the patch.

You don't need to understand it. All you need to know is that other people find it fun due to various reasons, and that is all that matters. Hell, I don't find melee fun at all in this game, but I have accepted the fact that other people do which makes me leave it be allowing them to have their fun. Simply trying to deny people a fix on suggestions just because you don't find it "fun" is not a justifiable excuse.

Also, this will perhaps help it some in PvE encounters a slight amount which is kind of needed atm with all changes and loss of dps.

[Specialka.7290]

They can find it fun all they want, I just do not understand those who like that kind of one button build which requires nothing.

And in Open world, any build can work.

In Pvp, that build is enough brain dead, it does not need any kind of buff.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@Specialka.7290 said:They can find it fun all they want, I just do not understand those who like that kind of one button build which requires nothing.

And in Open world, any build can work.

In Pvp, that build is enough brain dead, it does not need any kind of buff.

I disagree with you again like on the other thread. It needs a buff due to the dumb amount of reflects and blocks other classes have. Range gets enough hate as is in this game; it needs a better fighting chance against classes that deny it. This is a PvE P/P thread though, so I will leave the PvP side at that.

As for the PvE, there is more to PvE than open world. I don't think or want them for the moment at the current matter to redo P/P(which is needed), but for A-net to just add the stealth roll for P/P to have a nice QoL added back in which they removed with the rework. Allowing the stealth roll will help it with Fracts and Raids a little for those that take it in there. Every little bit helps its damage numbers a little.

As for P/P as a whole, it needs a whole rework which will take some time due to all the combos and such other weapons use with pistols. I eventually want it to be viable for PvE, and I also want people to fear it for PvP without them laughing it off while they put on a reflect. I don't expect that to change though for just the DE rework issues since it's a P/P issue for every spec.

[babazhook.6805]

For open world PvE, a P/P build is a power build, not a condition build. I can do ten times the damage of a fully Malice-loaded attack with the torment debuff by Unloading once.

This is NOT what you were suggesting when I responded to you.

You stated CLEARLY

The torment from Malicious Sneak Attack is completely inconsequential, yes. One unload cycle does more damage than that will ever do. Especially to a power build, but to any build, really.

Any build means ANY build and not just p/p power.

[babazhook.6805]

@Specialka.7290 said:You do not need to have a great build for Open world.

I do not understand what ppl finds fun in a one button build. I tried it for a few hours, but it is even more boring than the malice system with rifle before the patch.

If anything when in PvE open worldI find current p/p even easier. You just never run out of INI. You can load up CS to get IP for ongoing heals and just rotate unloads over and over and over.

[Cameryn.5310]

@babazhook.6805 said:

For open world PvE, a P/P build is a power build, not a condition build. I can do ten times the damage of a fully Malice-loaded attack with the torment debuff by Unloading once.

This is NOT what you were suggesting when I responded to you.

You stated CLEARLY

The torment from Malicious Sneak Attack is completely inconsequential, yes. One unload cycle does more damage than that will ever do. Especially to a power build, but to any build, really.

Any build means ANY build and not just p/p power.

Er, was that all for me? Because I think maybe you're confusing my point. I can do damage with one cycle of Unload once that does more than a torment debuff would do no matter what I'm doing. Torment from Malicious Sneak Attack is not going to provide in its entire cycle the 10-15K I can get from one Unload round. If that's not the case I'd love to know how you differ.

[Cameryn.5310]

Also, I would really like people to stop automatically thinking someone who (A) only does open world PvE and (B) likes using the P/P deadeye weapon/trait build is a subpar player whose opinions on the game and its mechanisms should not matter. Nobody's opinions here are any more valid than any other, and nobody deserves scorn for the type of play and playstyle they choose, regardless of whether it melts your meta builds or not.

[babazhook.6805]

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

For open world PvE, a P/P build is a power build, not a condition build. I can do ten times the damage of a fully Malice-loaded attack with the torment debuff by Unloading once.

This is NOT what you were suggesting when I responded to you.

You stated CLEARLY

The torment from Malicious Sneak Attack is completely inconsequential, yes. One unload cycle does more damage than that will ever do. Especially to a power build, but to any build, really.

Any build means ANY build and not just p/p power.

Er, was that all for me? Because I think maybe you're confusing my point. I can do damage with one cycle of Unload once that does more than a torment debuff would do

no matter

what I'm doing. Torment from Malicious Sneak Attack is not going to provide in its entire cycle the 10-15K I can get from one Unload round. If that's not the case I'd love to know how you differ.

Please define what you meant when you said Torment on sneak attack does nothing for ANY build. or were you speaking JUST p/p power and not ANY build. OH and just so you know sneak attack can do 10k damage in a single use in its entire cycle. Not in power but in Condition. 5 torment+ 5 bleed might stacked plus the raw damage will deliver 10k damage plus if not cleansed.

[Cameryn.5310]

@babazhook.6805 said:Please define what you meant when you said Torment on sneak attack does nothing for ANY build. You WERE speking JUST p/p power and not ANY build. OH and just so you know sneak attack can do 10k damage in a single use in its entire cycle. Not in power but in Condition.

But why WOULD anyone use a condition build on a P/P deadeye? Vital Shot has a bleed... that's pretty much it for the baseline skills. I mean, you could opt in with all utility skills that have additional conditions, but the base weapon set really supports a power build. To me it would be like using the rifle and depending on one of the traps for condition damage... I mean, you COULD do it, but since range is your primary DPS capacity, why WOULD you? :)

[babazhook.6805]

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Please define what you meant when you said Torment on sneak attack does nothing for ANY build. You WERE speking JUST p/p power and not ANY build. OH and just so you know sneak attack can do 10k damage in a single use in its entire cycle. Not in power but in Condition.

But why WOULD anyone use a condition build on a P/P deadeye? Vital Shot has a bleed... that's pretty much it for the baseline skills. I mean, you could opt in with all utility skills that have additional conditions, but the base weapon set really supports a power build. To me it would be like using the rifle and depending on one of the traps for condition damage... I mean, you COULD do it, but since range is your primary DPS capacity, why WOULD you? :)

I never said I would use P/P on a DE condition , though it can be made to work. P/d is better allround. You COULD use P/P with stealth to get might stack and higher condition ticks but you are likely better off with a hyrbrid if you want to go that route.

The point is this p/x is a viable build and p/p hybrid is a thing some would want to do. We can not define EVERY weapons sneak attack around power and power only. If you are wanting to leverage the sneak attack of P/x in a build you are likely better off going condition or hybrid just as if you are wanting to leverage the sneak attack of d/x in a DE build you are better off wih power.

There nothing wrong with that. P main hand has always been about Conditions. In fact it the only stealth attack weapon that favors condition builds and I see no reason to change that.

[Cameryn.5310]

@babazhook.6805 said:There nothing wrong with that. P main hand has always been about Conditions. In fact it the only stealth attack weapon that favors condition builds and I see no reason to change that.

I was never arguing against that. My only care has been about the P/P malice build-up and the lack of a sufficient malice dump.

[babazhook.6805]

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:There nothing wrong with that. P main hand has always been about Conditions. In fact it the only stealth attack weapon that favors condition builds and I see no reason to change that.

I was never arguing against that. My only care has been about the P/P malice build-up and the lack of a sufficient malice dump.

There a number of ways to dump malice in a p/p build.

Kill the enemy.Use MercyUse a stealth Utility (Smeld is 2 malice dumps)Trait SA for Hidden thief.Use weapon swaps.

RFI used to be a staple in most p/p builds. Gap opener with evade and a trick is nice providing 6 ini on a 35 second cooldown.Mercy is a 30 second cooldown with Stunbreak. It does not have a gap opener or evade but can get you 14 ini on use dumping malice and allowing you to reset mali 7.

Do you know what p/p can do with 14 extra INI over 6? The May 8th patch DOUBLED Malice gain from this trait and that huge for p/p.

[Leo G.4501]

@Specialka.7290 said:You do not need to have a great build for Open world.

I do not understand what ppl finds fun in a one button build. I tried it for a few hours, but it is even more boring than the malice system with rifle before the patch.

Happiness in simplicity is a reality. While complexity can provide challenge, it can also increase stress. Players play the game for many different reasons, some to challenge themselves, some to meet new people, others to talk and spend time with friends, and others still to relax from the stressors of their busy lives.

To be unable to understand this is to lack empathy. You don't have to enjoy what others enjoy, but being unable to comprehend why someone might enjoy sitting on their porch drinking tea or going out on a boat with a case of beer and a fishing rod or sitting in a cozy chair and reading a book...I may not enjoy all those things but I can emphathize how they can be enjoyable and relaxing.

FYI, the reason I enjoy the occasional P/P thief is because Equilibrium (not the trait, the movie).

[Cameryn.5310]

@babazhook.6805 said:There a number of ways to dump malice in a p/p build.

Whatever gets you through the day.

[babazhook.6805]

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:There a number of ways to dump malice in a p/p build.

Whatever gets you through the day.

It getting me through just fine. Apparently you not so much. Damage went WAY up and it hard to ever run out of INI.

[Tashigi.3159]

@Haziq.3907 said:With malice no longer providing a damage increase, is it now useless for p/p deadeyes ? It seems like only a rifle deadeye can make use of malice now. I only use the p/p deadeye in pve.

Sadly, this is true, Haziq.But it applies to just about every weapon other than Rifle. If you take up BQOBD, it will net you a slightly higher P/P DPS gain but in my opinion, it's not significant. You're looking at 21-22K DPS with M7 and around 300-900 DPS more with BQOBD.

@babazhook.6805 said:Damage went WAY up and it hard to ever run out of INI.It's been proven to you multiple times that the only thing that went up was your initial burst. Your overall damage actually went down. Yes, even with the initiative gain from M7.

[babazhook.6805]

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Haziq.3907 said:With malice no longer providing a damage increase, is it now useless for p/p deadeyes ? It seems like only a rifle deadeye can make use of malice now. I only use the p/p deadeye in pve.

Sadly, this is true, Haziq.But it applies to just about every weapon other than Rifle. If you take up BQOBD, it will net you a slightly higher P/P DPS gain but in my opinion, it's not significant. You're looking at 21-22K DPS with M7 and around 300-900 DPS more with BQOBD.

@babazhook.6805 said:Damage went WAY up and it hard to ever run out of INI.It's been proven to you multiple times that the only thing that went up was your initial burst. Your overall damage actually went down. Yes, even with the initiative gain from M7.

No it has not been PROVEN to me, I do not fight golems and walls and there more INI gain then just Mali 7. I get 14 ini from a mercy reset. Use Mercy in a BBqobK build and you are way ahead in INI while doing the same damage as the old build with malice add.

Using Mercy with a Mali 7 build and you will have more INI then you will know what to do with and can drop TR if wished.

Measuring what happens against a Golem is not relevant to WvW or PvP as no one has the hit points to survive that long. Targets are often dead before the old system would have granted you enough malice to get even he 15 percent which you now have from the get go.

[Specialka.7290]

Yeah in pvp, with a rifle, most ppl dies befor I get to 7 malice to Dj them.

In a long fight, I know that build losts dps, but in short ones like in Pvp, they die just fine.

[Tashigi.3159]

@babazhook.6805 said:Measuring what happens against a Golem is not relevant to WvW or PvP as no one has the hit points to survive that long. Targets are often dead before the old system would have granted you enough malice to get even he 15 percent which you now have from the get go.Once again, your initial burst is higher, not your overall damage. In WvW and specially in SPvP, one dodge from anyone and you'll be struggling to recover. Someone interrupts you and you're again in trouble.Against someone who is either average or below average, you can murder them in about 3-5 seconds with just about anything. Rifle, PP, S/P, etc with this new system, due to the passive gain of 10% extra damage and BQOBK. Timing stuns as you land your burst will net you kills faster. No one is arguing that.Your overall damage however, is missing 11% worth of damage bonuses, even if you take premeditation, you're still missing roughly 5-7% depending on how many boons you manage to get. So in longer, more even fights, you're going to feel the effect. This is specially true against a good bunker who knows when to dodge you, reflect or stun you.

You sound like you mainly play P/P, I am struggling to understand how this is not clicking with you. I get your playstyle, I used to play old school Ricochet P/P and yes, it works great still, even without Ricochet. No doubt, stronger than Rifle in close quarters (though arguably weaker if trying to maintain range).

[babazhook.6805]

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:Measuring what happens against a Golem is not relevant to WvW or PvP as no one has the hit points to survive that long. Targets are often dead before the old system would have granted you enough malice to get even he 15 percent which you now have from the get go.Once again, your initial burst is higher, not your overall damage. In WvW and specially in SPvP, one dodge from anyone and you'll be struggling to recover. Someone interrupts you and you're again in trouble.Against someone who is either average or below average, you can murder them in about 3-5 seconds with just about anything. Rifle, PP, S/P, etc with this new system, due to the passive gain of 10% extra damage and BQOBK. Timing stuns as you land your burst will net you kills faster. No one is arguing that.Your overall damage however, is missing 11% worth of damage bonuses, even if you take premeditation, you're still missing roughly 5-7% depending on how many boons you manage to get. So in longer, more even fights, you're going to feel the effect. This is specially true against a good bunker who knows when to dodge you, reflect or stun you.

You sound like you mainly play P/P, I am struggling to understand how this is not clicking with you. I get your playstyle, I used to play old school Ricochet P/P and yes, it works great still, even without Ricochet. No doubt, stronger than Rifle in close quarters (though arguably weaker if trying to maintain range).

No your damage is not higher. I use P/P coupled with s/p. I kill faster then before because I have more INI. I am not worried about reflects because as soon as they go up I switch to S/p port in and Pistolwhip or cleave. I have lots of INI left when I do this. If I am facing something like Scourge or some other class running around with red circles at their feet, i stay in P/P longer and have lots of INI to either chain multiple attacks or use Headshots for interrupts. There is NEVER 11 percent damage missing even if I used the old Mali 7. 21 -15 is NOT 11. I usually have 4 or 5 boons running . If A thief can not keep swiftness/fury and might up AT minumum they are doing something wrong when in p/p.. That 5 percent extra damage you got off old Mali 7 add is more then made up for by having extra INI for unloads/ headshots and the like. INI was the main reason people using p/p took the TR line even though you can get more damage out of DA or CS. It because MORE ini allowed more unload use.

You claimed in "WvW" one Dodge from anyone and you will be struggling to recover! Why?

It was because they dodged your attack meaning you got NO might off the unload and just burned 5 INI. Well guess what. I get more then 5 ini back with Mali 7 kick in. I get more then 5 ini back using a mercy reset. I have more unloads or headshots or black powders now meaning the enemy has to dodge more. When you missed with your 6 percent more damage add Old style your entire damage lost including that 6 percent extra. With more INi you can follow up with another Unload. It a lot easier to dodge one attack then it is to dodge 2 and THIS is why you do not use Golems to measure effectiveness.

Those "Good Fighters" you refer to are easier to kill now then they were before. They are easier to kill because they did not get more blocks and they did not get more reflects while I got more unloads. They are easier to kill then before even with that 6 percent damage loss because they have to block at least 2 extra unloads and more if you cycle your mercy/mali 7 and mali dumps efficiently.

As to what weapons I main the most, I do not have a preferred set. I use ALL of them in different builds. I am fully capable of comparing before and after in WvW because I generally play a thief, rarely roam with zergs or large groups (where effectivness distored) and can make that comparison from EXPERIENCE. I do not make tha comparison by shooting at a golem.

[Legatus.3608]

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:Dagger dagger also doesnt use malice. Basically no decent damage build is using malice unless you're just playing for fun and say to heck with caring about performance.

DD builds don't use dagger 5 to trigger backstabs? Malicious backstab damage is enormous.

Since autos are the baseline, you have to do significantly more than the auto to justify using ini for damage, and there aren't that many skills that do as much as malicious backstab at 7 malice (or dj). I'd think its enough of a spike over baseline to justify the costs. I was doing 12k backstab with marauder gear on the pvp golem

[Tashigi.3159]

@"Legatus.3608" said:Since autos are the baseline, you have to do significantly more than the auto to justify using ini for damage, and there aren't that many skills that do as much as malicious backstab at 7 malice (or dj). I'd think its enough of a spike over baseline to justify the costs. I was doing 12k backstab with marauder gear on the pvp golemDD builds use #5 to backstab but they don't depend on M7 to build up Malice, as it's a waste of time that you could be using backstabing again. You can get 1 and a half backstab with 2-3 Malice initially. But at the 30 second mark, that becomes more like 2 backstabs or more per 1 M7 backstab. Moreover, these builds don't use M7 for this reason, they use BQOBK, as stated above, waiting for M7 Malice to build up, actually decreases your overall DPS.Finally, if properly done, under the right build, your backstab should be doing anywhere from 28K to 38K damage, without M7.Refer to this

for example.

[Legatus.3608]

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@"Legatus.3608" said:Since autos are the baseline, you have to do significantly more than the auto to justify using ini for damage, and there aren't that many skills that do as much as malicious backstab at 7 malice (or dj). I'd think its enough of a spike over baseline to justify the costs. I was doing 12k backstab with marauder gear on the pvp golemDD builds use #5 to backstab but they don't depend on M7 to build up Malice, as it's a waste of time that you could be using backstabing again. You can get 1 and a half backstab with 2-3 Malice initially. But at the 30 second mark, that becomes more like 2 backstabs or more per 1 M7 backstab. Moreover, these builds don't use M7 for this reason, they use BQOBK, as stated above, waiting for M7 Malice to build up, actually decreases your overall DPS.Finally, if properly done, under the right build, your backstab should be doing anywhere from 28K to 38K damage, without M7.Refer to this

for example.

OK, I understand what you're saying and why people might think it's better to just spam backstab (maybe it is).

But, I hope at least someone TRIED to do a benchmark with M7 backstabs. The reason, like I said, is the amount of extra damage over baseline. The auto chain in that video is doing 30k by itself, the potential for a massive M7 backstab to out-dps regular backstabs over the baseline I think does exist. The regular backstab plus CnD has to do a lot of extra damage to be worth it. In the video CnD does 15k and backstab does 35k.

Very rough estimations:So CnD + backstab = 3/4 seconds, for about 50k. Autos do about 30k in the same space of time. So every time you do that chain, you increase your damage in that 3/4s by 20k above autos.For M7 backstab (35k * 1.7 = 59500, I'm rounding to 60k), you're doing 15k + 60k = 75k in the same space as 3 autos, so you're doing 45k damage above autos in that time frame. Since you get back 7 ini by reaching 7 malice, the CnD doesn't cost anything and the INI cost instead goes to your malice generation. In this case the best way to generate malice reliably would probably be dancing dagger, so you'd need to use 9 INI + CnD = 14 INI and you get back 7. Since you're using 15 INI to do 3 regular backstabs... I think the potential is there. You can actually M7 backstab more often than 3x regular backstab because of the extra INI refund.

At the very least, going off your numbers up there, you'd be doing 2 backstabs to every 1 M7 backstab - this is actually a dps loss since the M7 is 45k over baseline and 2 regular backstabs is only 40k over baseline. It should at least be close, given the extra 200 power from BQoBK help the regular backstabs a bit.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Haziq.3907 said:With malice no longer providing a damage increase, is it now useless for p/p deadeyes ? It seems like only a rifle deadeye can make use of malice now. I only use the p/p deadeye in pve.

Not necessarily useless. Sure the damage increase from Malice stack is gone. At 5 stack of Malice, we used to get a 3%-15% damage boost. The recent update simply made it a flat 10% from the new Ironsight. The main advantage is that now I don't have to wait for Malice to get to max since I get a 10% damage boost right off the bat. To get the missing 5% damage boost from Malice, I have to also pick Premeditation.

Premeditation gives a 2% damage boost if you pick Fire for Effect and a 6% damage boost if you pick M7. A mere 1% boost if you pick BQoBK since it already grants 200 power and prec.

So for a full 7 stacks of Malice if you pick M7, we used to get a total of 21% boost. Now we only get a total of 16% boost. It is still not enough nerf to make it useless.

Unlike other weapon sets, P/P gets to max Malice the fastest, IMO, thanks to Unload and the initiative refund.

If you can steal Aegis, Resist, and Quickness, that's 3% more damage making the potential damage boost of 19%. The maximum potential of having all boons makes it a total of 22% damage boost. So in a best case scenario, it is better than before.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@"Legatus.3608" said:Since autos are the baseline, you have to do significantly more than the auto to justify using ini for damage, and there aren't that many skills that do as much as malicious backstab at 7 malice (or dj). I'd think its enough of a spike over baseline to justify the costs. I was doing 12k backstab with marauder gear on the pvp golemDD builds use #5 to backstab but they don't depend on M7 to build up Malice, as it's a waste of time that you could be using backstabing again. You can get 1 and a half backstab with 2-3 Malice initially. But at the 30 second mark, that becomes more like 2 backstabs or more per 1 M7 backstab. Moreover, these builds don't use M7 for this reason, they use BQOBK, as stated above, waiting for M7 Malice to build up, actually decreases your overall DPS.Finally, if properly done, under the right build, your backstab should be doing anywhere from 28K to 38K damage, without M7.Refer to this

for example.

I have to disagree. 7 stacks of Malice is +70% more damage, +10% from Ironsight, 6% from boons. That's +86% non-critical damage. Now think of a critical hit with that damage boost. Let that sink in.