Thief in raids

[sokeenoppa.5384]

This discussion isnt meant for ppl who can get their dmg close to benchmarks with other dps chars.

Ok so here it goes. Why player tend to avoid thief as dps char in raids? Ill take VG as example here. Players at My skill lvl usually have their dps around 10-18k in that boss, and my dps is usually around 24k (19k If only auto attacking). So why, why do players avoid me like a plague? Is it coz of lower benchmark than other classes or is there something else?

"Thiefs dont Bring any buffs to group." Well should i Bring buffs as dps?

I dont wanna see fight about reasons just tell ur opinion about it :)

[Vinceman.4572]

The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get. It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and hasn't really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get. It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and hasn't really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

This is why we need an easy mode, so that groups don't need an incentive to be selective about who they "allow" into them.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Vinceman.4572 said:The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get. It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and not really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

Ty for your post. I just cant understand how most of the thief player tend to be in downstate most of The time. Im not IMO good player and i think its hard to die as thief mostly coz of evades/mobility.Again vale Guardian as example. Blue circles: just Dodge em like you do in ur rotation anyway.Got ported: use Steal or stolen item to Port Back to fight.

I guess ill need to stick with my weaver for pug raids.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs

it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get.

It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and hasn't really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

This is why we need an easy mode, so that groups don't need an incentive to be selective about who they "allow" into them.

Please dont Bring that discussion here. Its not about easy mode now :) im looking for reasons not solutions

[Ohoni.6057]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs

it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get.

It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and hasn't really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

This is why we need an easy mode, so that groups don't need an incentive to be selective about who they "allow" into them.

Please dont Bring that discussion here. Its not about easy mode now :) im looking for reasons not solutions

Fair enough. I'm more solutions-oriented. The "reason" in this case is that it's impossible to perfectly balance all classes, there will always be winners and losers, and the losers will not be allowed when there is a very real chance of failure.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs

it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get.

It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and hasn't really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

This is why we need an easy mode, so that groups don't need an incentive to be selective about who they "allow" into them.

Please dont Bring that discussion here. Its not about easy mode now :) im looking for reasons not solutions

Fair enough. I'm more solutions-oriented. The "reason" in this case is that it's impossible to perfectly balance all classes, there will always be winners and losers, and the losers will not be allowed when there is a very real chance of failure.

Yes kinda. But If you ignore the theoretical Max dps from class X it can be lot lower dps in groups of My skill lvl, coz of thiefs forgiving rotation or auto attacking only what is around 19k dps.So im thinking are The dps benchmarks that only highly skilled players can perform keeping thief away from raids in less skilled groups too.This is actually one of those scenarios where dps meter is actually helpful.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Ty for your post. I just cant understand how most of the thief player tend to be in downstate most of The time. Im not IMO good player and i think its hard to die as thief mostly coz of evades/mobility.Again vale Guardian as example. Blue circles: just Dodge em like you do in ur rotation anyway.Got ported: use Steal or stolen item to Port Back to fight.Yes, thief has a ton of active defense and can be near-immortal against normal attacks if played right, while dealing rather decent (though not great) damage for little effort. The problem is just the "active" part in active defense - you have to press a button at the right time. The standard assumption, proven correct time and time again, is that pugs will be bad at that part. And then thief is very squishy.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

So basically most ppl think that thief players sacrifice too much dmg to stay alive or just die all the time?Feels bad :( im glad that i have Raid guild that let me teef :3

[Ohoni.6057]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs

it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get.

It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and hasn't really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

This is why we need an easy mode, so that groups don't need an incentive to be selective about who they "allow" into them.

Please dont Bring that discussion here. Its not about easy mode now :) im looking for reasons not solutions

Fair enough. I'm more solutions-oriented. The "reason" in this case is that it's impossible to perfectly balance all classes, there will always be winners and losers, and the losers will not be allowed when there is a very real chance of failure.

Yes kinda. But If you ignore the theoretical Max dps from class X it can be lot lower dps in groups of My skill lvl, coz of thiefs forgiving rotation or auto attacking only what is around 19k dps.So im thinking are The dps benchmarks that only highly skilled players can perform keeping thief away from raids in less skilled groups too.This is actually one of those scenarios where dps meter is actually helpful.

But how would that work? If it's a self-reporting thing, like "Ok, I get X DPS, so I'm worth having," well then people could just lie about that. If it's something where you could see your other teammates DPS and accept or kick them based on how they do, they would at least have to let you in long enough to see if you failed them, and why would they want to bother if they had preconceptions as to your performance?

[Vinceman.4572]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Ty for your post. I just cant understand how most of the thief player tend to be in downstate most of The time. Im not IMO good player and i think its hard to die as thief mostly coz of evades/mobility.Again vale Guardian as example. Blue circles: just Dodge em like you do in ur rotation anyway.Got ported: use Steal or stolen item to Port Back to fight.

I guess ill need to stick with my weaver for pug raids.

What CptAurellian said + look at one of the latest threads about outhealing VG. It can be a disaster in pugs and I've already seen that in high li/kp requirement groups myself. If things go down the hill a thief is most likely one of the first professions that is dead on the floor in VG fights. So, it doesn't matter if you and few others are able to survive while the majority of thieves are just dead in those scenarios. The experience comes from the average pug player not the ones you met that were superior.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:The most thieves are just bad, often in downstate and since we are talking about pugs

it's only rational to avoid them because you never know whom to get.

It's rarely the case that you get a benchmark dps thief or at least someone who can pull decent numbers. I would say almost every commander knows that you are able to kill bosses with non-optimal setups without getting into trouble. They still insist in getting the best they can get to ensure a higher probability of success together with kill speed.Additionally, those are pugs, they behave different.

If we are missing someone in our static we usually don't care about the dps class joining our squad for the full clear but we'll ask the player(s) if they can swap to condi/power when they try to play something really unfavorable on a certain boss. That is almost always also a sign that someone only has basic to no knowledge of an encounter and hasn't really looked into raid background for example preferring to play condi on kc etc.

This is why we need an easy mode, so that groups don't need an incentive to be selective about who they "allow" into them.

Please dont Bring that discussion here. Its not about easy mode now :) im looking for reasons not solutions

Fair enough. I'm more solutions-oriented. The "reason" in this case is that it's impossible to perfectly balance all classes, there will always be winners and losers, and the losers will not be allowed when there is a very real chance of failure.

Yes kinda. But If you ignore the theoretical Max dps from class X it can be lot lower dps in groups of My skill lvl, coz of thiefs forgiving rotation or auto attacking only what is around 19k dps.So im thinking are The dps benchmarks that only highly skilled players can perform keeping thief away from raids in less skilled groups too.This is actually one of those scenarios where dps meter is actually helpful.

But how would that work? If it's a self-reporting thing, like "Ok, I get X DPS, so I'm worth having," well then people could just lie about that. If it's something where you could see your other teammates DPS and accept or kick them based on how they do, they would at least have to let you in long enough to see if you failed them, and why would they want to bother if they had preconceptions as to your performance?

Most ppl run dps meter in raids (lets end discussion about is it good or not here)Dps meter shows every1s dps.

Ill usually join in group and say something like this " hey ill teef, kick me If i fail mechanic or If im not in top 3 dps" xDYes its stupid, but its My way to get in.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Ty for your post. I just cant understand how most of the thief player tend to be in downstate most of The time. Im not IMO good player and i think its hard to die as thief mostly coz of evades/mobility.Again vale Guardian as example. Blue circles: just Dodge em like you do in ur rotation anyway.Got ported: use Steal or stolen item to Port Back to fight.

I guess ill need to stick with my weaver for pug raids.

What CptAurellian said + look at one of the latest threads about outhealing VG. It can be a disaster in pugs and I've already seen that in high li/kp requirement groups myself. If things go down the hill a thief is most likely one of the first professions that is dead on the floor in VG fights. So, it doesn't matter if you and few others are able to survive while the majority of thieves are just dead in those scenarios. The experience comes from the average pug player not the ones you met that were superior.

Ty for answer :)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

The problem is called weaver.

[Xantaria.8726]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:The problem is called weaver.

Which is no longer the best dps class kappa.

[apharma.3741]

There’s also the damage profile of thief too where they don’t spike as hard as DH, weaver and I believe holosmith which is why you see them taken more often and instead the thief just gets up to their max dps fairly quickly and sits there.

Then there’s the ugly truth of thief, it’s not that fun to play with extremely basic rotations most of the time. You also don’t really bring much extra but I do think it’s more people not putting any value into what it does have and can use in a pinch like signet of agility to cleanse and restore endurance, basi for CC and some of the stolen skills are flat out broken overpowered in raids. Then you have why people play thief, many play it for PvP and stick to the “PvE is easier than PvP just auto and it dies” and then you have some who play it just for speed tagging and leeching which doesn’t tend to put them in a great mindset, not that you don’t find these kinds on other classes, you just find them a lot on thief, ranger and engy in my experience.

At the end of the day I wouldn’t kick someone for playing a class I would however kick them if they were causing us to wipe multiple times irrespective of class.

[Henry.5713]

The only thing a thief handles better than anyone else is that one door.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@"Henry.5713" said:The only thing a thief handles better than anyone else is that one door.

Yes this is true.At my skill lvl most ppl usually do around 10-17k dps, thats why im asking why these ppl still dont wanna raid with teefs, Even when thiefs do around 20k ONLY with auto attack. In High lvl raiding ppl dont wanna thief coz of low BENCHMARK dps and that is a good reason, coz better players usually hit closer to benchmarks.

So basically im asking do ppl "hate" teefs on all skills lvls because high skilled players dont like em?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:The problem is called weaver.

Which is no longer the best dps class kappa.

not counting big hitbox as it's a gimmick, benchmarks indeeed are moving into better direction but there are still too big differences between some dps oriented builds compared to top ones.

[Henry.5713]

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Henry.5713" said:The only thing a thief handles better than anyone else is that one door.

Yes this is true.At my skill lvl most ppl usually do around 10-17k dps, thats why im asking why these ppl still dont wanna raid with teefs, Even when thiefs do around 20k ONLY with auto attack. In High lvl raiding ppl dont wanna thief coz of low BENCHMARK dps and that is a good reason, coz better players usually hit closer to benchmarks.

So basically im asking do ppl "hate" teefs on all skills lvls because high skilled players dont like em?

You are already quite the minority there by admitting your own low skill level, let alone by realizing how that may restrict your build choices.Nobody hates thieves, they are simply not optimal outside of specific scenarios. I'd consider your personal skill level, which might indeed make them more optimal than weavers in your case, such a scenario. Not that there aren't usually even better options for a low skill range.The thing is, most players do not even think about the sterile and thus rather misleading nature of benchmark tests.They simply pick what they are 'supposed' to pick. Often based on nothing more than second-hand knowledge they gained from someone who hardly knows what they are talking about.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Henry.5713 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Henry.5713 said:The only thing a thief handles better than anyone else is that one door.

Yes this is true.At my skill lvl most ppl usually do around 10-17k dps, thats why im asking why these ppl still dont wanna raid with teefs, Even when thiefs do around 20k ONLY with auto attack. In High lvl raiding ppl dont wanna thief coz of low BENCHMARK dps and that is a good reason, coz better players usually hit closer to benchmarks.

So basically im asking do ppl "hate" teefs on all skills lvls because high skilled players dont like em?

You are already quite the minority there by admitting your own low skill level, let alone by realizing how that may restrict your build choices.Nobody hates thieves, they are simply not optimal outside of specific scenarios. I'd consider your personal skill level, which might indeed make them more optimal than weavers in your case, such a scenario. Not that there aren't usually even better options for a low skill range.The thing is, most players do not even think about the sterile and thus rather misleading nature of benchmark tests.They simply pick what they are 'supposed' to pick. Often based on nothing more than second-hand knowledge they gained from someone who hardly knows what they are talking about.

Very good Post Ty.I think ill just stick with my teef, it can be sometimes hard to convince rest of the group that i can pull that 23-25k with him and lot less with my weaver.This is the Part where things goes funny, even when i say what kind of numbers i can do with my teef and that i Will do lot less with my ele rest of The group still want me to roll with my weaver.I pick My weaver then and my dps is around 16k, i Will go downed one or two times.. no1 calls me noob or anything like that. It just feels funny that players want me to roll with something that im not good at, but still let me play with them.

Im not sure does this happen to others but some raiders are more willing to carry me with my weaver than let me do My job as thief.

[Xantaria.8726]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:The problem is called weaver.

Which is no longer the best dps class kappa.

not counting big hitbox as it's a gimmick, benchmarks indeeed are moving into better direction but there are still too big differences between some dps oriented builds compared to top ones.

Yeah totaly if you also compare the amount of utility low benchmark builds have compared to weaver. Also yeah its as well counting big hitbox, condi dps berserker is better now then weaver there too.

The problem never was the weaver, who has besides dps no other function or utility in a group. the problem is that there is no option for other classes to throw off more surviveabylities in exchange for more dps. But oh no, better point the fingers on a nichebuild in a nichecontent which is only op when the situation is niche as well, which is when you build the whole group around it, have a boss which does not move at all and have a fixed aggro mechanic AND having no mechanics which interrupts your rotation. Its just sad.But a build on a class with heavy armor, cc and big healthpool to even ignore some mechanics which would oneshot weaver as best dpsclass on small and big hitbox is not broken.

Not my problem since i prefer dragonhunter, but i cant take those "the weaver is op pls fix" comments anymore.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Ty for your post. I just cant understand how most of the thief player tend to be in downstate most of The time. Im not IMO good player and i think its hard to die as thief mostly coz of evades/mobility.Again vale Guardian as example. Blue circles: just Dodge em like you do in ur rotation anyway.Got ported: use Steal or stolen item to Port Back to fight.

I guess ill need to stick with my weaver for pug raids.

What CptAurellian said + look at one of the latest threads about outhealing VG. It can be a disaster in pugs and I've already seen that in high li/kp requirement groups myself. If things go down the hill a thief is most likely one of the first professions that is dead on the floor in VG fights. So, it doesn't matter if you and few others are able to survive while the majority of thieves are just dead in those scenarios. The experience comes from the average pug player not the ones you met that were superior.

Wait... What. As a thief main I am really curious about how thief is the first to drop dead in VG. And just to be sure... You mean vale guardian right?

Unless that tank is real bad at kiting it... Your mobility will keep you from getting murdered by heat seeking fluff balls and out of the stupid. You can even bounce into the stupid to stop a group while and get out before you die.

Thieves might not contribute more than OK damage but we can stop a party whipe from across the map and still not die.l

[Cyninja.2954]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Ty for your post. I just cant understand how most of the thief player tend to be in downstate most of The time. Im not IMO good player and i think its hard to die as thief mostly coz of evades/mobility.Again vale Guardian as example. Blue circles: just Dodge em like you do in ur rotation anyway.Got ported: use Steal or stolen item to Port Back to fight.

I guess ill need to stick with my weaver for pug raids.

What CptAurellian said + look at one of the latest threads about outhealing VG. It can be a disaster in pugs and I've already seen that in high li/kp requirement groups myself. If things go down the hill a thief is most likely one of the first professions that is dead on the floor in VG fights. So, it doesn't matter if you and few others are able to survive while the majority of thieves are just dead in those scenarios. The experience comes from the average pug player not the ones you met that were superior.

Wait... What. As a thief main I am really curious about how thief is the first to drop dead in VG. And just to be sure... You mean vale guardian right?

Unless that tank is real bad at kiting it...

Your mobility will keep you from getting murdered by heat seeking fluff balls and out of the stupid.

You can even bounce into the stupid to stop a group while and get out before you die.

Thieves might not contribute more than OK damage but we can stop a party whipe from across the map and still not die.l

Now go and read what CptAurellian said again, then what Vinceman wrote, then what your wrote and find the error.

Here's a hint: You are talking about a way different kind of thief and player skill level than they are.

The thiefs main problem is, it excels at nothing currently and does not cover one of the basic required rolls. Other classes are easier or more useful even with minor benefits.

Direct competition would be say a Dragonhunter. Main difference is the DH is way less reliant on his active avoidance, can provide group utility and is so easy to play that even with banging your head on your keyboard you are bound to get the rotation almost right.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Ty for your post. I just cant understand how most of the thief player tend to be in downstate most of The time. Im not IMO good player and i think its hard to die as thief mostly coz of evades/mobility.Again vale Guardian as example. Blue circles: just Dodge em like you do in ur rotation anyway.Got ported: use Steal or stolen item to Port Back to fight.

I guess ill need to stick with my weaver for pug raids.

What CptAurellian said + look at one of the latest threads about outhealing VG. It can be a disaster in pugs and I've already seen that in high li/kp requirement groups myself. If things go down the hill a thief is most likely one of the first professions that is dead on the floor in VG fights. So, it doesn't matter if you and few others are able to survive while the majority of thieves are just dead in those scenarios. The experience comes from the average pug player not the ones you met that were superior.

Wait... What. As a thief main I am really curious about how thief is the first to drop dead in VG. And just to be sure... You mean vale guardian right?

Unless that tank is real bad at kiting it...

Your mobility will keep you from getting murdered by heat seeking fluff balls and out of the stupid.

You can even bounce into the stupid to stop a group while and get out before you die.

Thieves might not contribute more than OK damage but we can stop a party whipe from across the map and still not die.l

Now go and read what CptAurellian said again, then what Vinceman wrote, then what your wrote and find the error.

Here's a hint: You are talking about a way different kind of thief and player skill level than they are.

The thiefs main problem is, it excels at nothing currently and does not cover one of the basic required rolls. Other classes are easier or more useful even with minor benefits.

Direct competition would be say a Dragonhunter. Main difference is the DH is way less reliant on his active avoidance, can provide group utility and is so easy to play that even with banging your head on your keyboard you are bound to get the rotation almost right.

Ah. Fair enough.