My opinion about raids

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders also seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP.

According to posts in this thread it's the other way around. Only anti-raid people are toxic :)

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that

some

players wanted even

more

challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

Every PvE content would die if its rewards got nerfed to the point of not being worth your time. This point is moot and it proves nothing. And no, raids will/did not fail just as quickly. They are still around, still played, people make Discord communities about raiding, their LFG is always busy. But most importantly - they keep getting developed.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Your experience is not the same as for people raids are aimed for. And they killed everything in seconds without them responding. You are not the target audience for content you need to pay attention, we already had that.

See, and that difference in experiences is why an easy mode is needed, to provide an experience that is enjoyable for those other players.

No they are not. Your average non-experienced group never completed Arah in the first time they tried it.People are not elitists because they don't want to play with you.

I don't know, I did, maybe that was unusual? And yes, "not wanting to play with others they consider 'lesser'" is, by definition, "elitist."

I do agree that a certain degree of elitism is justified when content punishes being accepting of less capable players, which is why there needs to be a version that doesn't have such requirements.

Legendary items are still niche (and also available in WvW and sPvP). We had this like 100 times already. Most people wouldn't aquire the skins even if they were in open world. You are not most players.

According to Efficiency, 75% of long-time players have at least one Legendary Weapon, while only 20% have armor. I'm not saying that everyone has Legendary weapons, but they are at least a goal that can reasonably be pursued by those that want them. The same cannot be said for Envoy armor.

@NotOverlyCheesy.9427 said:Those raiders sure are toxic and elitist for providing their time to newcomers via training runs so everyone could be able to experience the content. /endsarcasm

They are if they insist that this should be the only way players should be able to experience raids or earn the rewards, whether those players enjoy that experience or not.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders

also

seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP.

According to posts in this thread it's the other way around. Only anti-raid people are toxic :)

I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Your experience is not the same as for people raids are aimed for. And they killed everything in seconds without them responding. You are not the target audience for content you need to pay attention, we already had that.

See, and that difference in experiences is why an easy mode is needed, to provide an experience that is enjoyable for those other players.

No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

No they are not. Your average non-experienced group never completed Arah in the first time they tried it.People are not elitists because they don't want to play with you.

I don't know, I did, maybe that was unusual? And yes, "not wanting to play with others they consider 'lesser'" is, by definition, "elitist."

I do agree that a certain degree of elitism is

justified

when content

punishes

being accepting of less capable players, which is why there needs to be a version that doesn't have such requirements.

Maybe you got carried by more experienced people? Ever thought of that?

Legendary items are still niche (and also available in WvW and sPvP). We had this like 100 times already. Most people wouldn't aquire the skins even if they were in open world. You are not most players.

According to Efficiency, 75% of long-time players have at least one Legendary Weapon, while only 20% have armor. I'm not saying that everyone has Legendary weapons, but they are at least a goal that can reasonably be pursued by those that want them. The same cannot be said for Envoy armor.

And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable. Your point was exactly? Also 4000h+ is not only a long-time player. That's around 2h per day since release. That is not casual.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wrong thread.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

No.

Or, to elaborate a bit, it does happen in games with gear treadmill where the powercreep trivializes the challenge. Since GW2 does not have this, it doesn't happen here.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

No.

I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

No.

I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

No.

I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it.

I can agree with you on that.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

Eh?

If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

Yes.

I don’t see it...

Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

No.

I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it.

It just seems like insecurities on both sides of the table.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

Both failed in some ways, just in different ways. You view it the way you do because the way dungeons failed was in a way that matters to you, while the way raids failed does not matter to you.

Maybe you got carried by more experienced people? Ever thought of that?

No, I was last man standing in parts.

And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable.

A legendary backpiece? Is there even in one in PvE?

@Feanor.2358 said:Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

I'm not trying to nullify anything. Everythign that anyone has earned, I expect them to get to keep.

@Feanor.2358 said:Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement. They did that the instant they allowed raid-selling to exist. Adding an easy mode would in no way diminish the "token of achievement" aspect that it currently has.

Again though, I fully respect the devs adding some other "token of acheivement" aspect, like the "Twicetold Legend" title.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

Both failed in some ways, just in different ways. You view it the way you do because the way dungeons failed was in a way that matters to you, while the way raids failed does not matter to you.

No. I see it that way because the game was advertised this way.

And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable.

A legendary backpiece? Is there even in one in PvE?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum

Do you even play the game?

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

Both failed in some ways, just in different ways. You view it the way you do because the way dungeons failed was in a way that matters to you, while the way raids failed does not matter to you.

No. I see it that way because the game was advertised this way.

And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable.

A legendary backpiece? Is there even in one in PvE?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum

Do you even play the game?

Psht, that's Fractals. I'm talking actual PvE.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

Both failed in some ways, just in different ways. You view it the way you do because the way dungeons failed was in a way that matters to you, while the way raids failed does not matter to you.

No. I see it that way because the game was advertised this way.

And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable.

A legendary backpiece? Is there even in one in PvE?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum

Do you even play the game?

Psht, that's Fractals. I'm talking

actual

PvE.

Fractals are PvE.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

That's arbitrary and subjective.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:Fractals are PvE.

Yeah, and WvW is PvP.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

That's arbitrary and subjective.

It is. It's a game, pretty much everything is arbitrary and subjective, including your insistence that raiders "own" the entire concept of Envoy armor and must be satisfied in any decision made about them. Again, it's a game, there's no point if you aren't having fun. I'm pushing for an easy mode because I would like to actually enjoy raiding, not merely "endure" it.