My opinion about raids

[Dadnir.5038]

1/ Player community issue and have always been so. It's like zerk meta in the vanilla game.

2/ To train is to learn. It allow you to be able to cope with more than 1 issue that you might encounter after your "training". Honestly, being trained by seasoned veteran is always valuable since it allow you to follow more than a single tactic. Old dungeons were the same, I personnally was quite accomplished in these dungeon run but I always treasured each new tips that I could gain from fellow dungeon runners. So yes you should treasure this possibility to be "trained" since it mean that there are still players willing to teach.

3/ A lot of players (in all games) have a life outside the game and often lack time. In time sinking game content like raid, the "save points" usually allow these players to enjoy these raids at their own pace. It's better than to neglect your daugther crying in the night because you are "raiding" for example.

[Draco.9480]

feelings aren't a factor when people want dedicated players to raid. if you have problem with elitism don't raid then.

[thrag.9740]

Make your own group, as a commander. All solved.

[Henry.5713]

1.) People prefer to play with like-minded individuals, on a similar level of experience and skill or above. Allowing others to enforce their unwanted presence on them would be giving in to entitlement and thus be actual bad design.

2.) Training runs is just a name. You have to practise to be able to get kills but you practise on the real thing. We could call them Real raids with inexperienced players on a similar level to your own which might possibly provide you with the experience and KPs you need to fit into groups you shouldn't currently join if that makes you feel any better about it.

3) Don't necessarily disagree with you there. However, there were people who came here to complain about the very fact they have to unlock these "Save Points" first each week, that they can't instantly jump to any given boss. There is that.

[Jeknar.6184]

1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the Chat Code Generator. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that: Training... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

[mindcircus.1506]

Yet another thread of the same tired arguments being propped up by the same tired group of anti-raiders.

Don't like raiding? Don't raid. It's not as if there is nothing else to do in this game.

[nia.4725]

@"Jeknar.6184" said:1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the Chat Code Generator. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that: Training... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

Here you have an example of why experienced raiders end up asking for a lot of KP and LIs: fakers.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

Apparently they do.

[Sephylon.4938]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

[Jeknar.6184]

@nia.4725 said:

@"Jeknar.6184" said:1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the

Chat Code Generator

. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that:

Training

... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

Here you have an example of why experienced raiders end up asking for a lot of KP and LIs: fakers.

And how does that help them? Unless they ask to show a mini (That people may not have dropped nor want to buy) or a title (that not every encounter have) there is no reliable KP to be shown that cannot be faked. All they are doing is making it harder for genuine people with low LI to get in raid groups.

I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

[Raizel.8175]

What's really stupid about raids are the scarce groupbuilding-options you have. The LFG just sucks and LI/KP as skill-indicators aren't good either.

[Sarrs.4831]

@"Ashantara.8731" said:2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

Progression raiding is an insane amount of fun.

[Jeknar.6184]

@Raizel.8175 said:What's really stupid about raids are the scarce groupbuilding-options you have. The LFG just sucks and LI/KP as skill-indicators aren't good either.

Define: Group Building Options

Do you mean by team composition, or you saying the LFG tool is bad? Cuz if you are talking about the later, I think the LFG do it's job just fine, just there aren't many people looking for pugs to their raids because of how scared of taking new people others are.

[nia.4725]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the

Chat Code Generator

. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that:

Training

... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

Here you have an example of why experienced raiders end up asking for a lot of KP and LIs: fakers.

And how does that help them? Unless they ask to show a mini (That people may not have dropped nor want to buy) or a title (that not every encounter have) there is no reliable KP to be shown that cannot be faked. All they are doing is making it harder for genuine people with low LI to get in raid groups.

I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

Yeah, omegalul all you want but even those squads get players who can't do things and mess up constantly.

Ofc everything can be faked but you can get caught. Honestly I don't care if you can pull your own weight. You could be the leader of Snowcrows, idc, if you fake things you're out of the squad. An experienced raider who places a high LI lfg wants high LI players, period. If you don't have the requirements you should not join. Have some honesty and fair play.

There are a lot of people who think like this. I have accepted a 40li chrono in a 250li lfg, because he was honest and polite. But I will never accept a faker.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Ashantara.8731" said:1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).In fact, people can and do. Not sure why you couldn't. There are entire discord channels devoted just to this.

2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.The entire point to raids is that they are elite content, that, for most people, extra effort is involved.

3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)This critique contradicts your other points. The longer a raid goes without a "save point," the harder it is for people to join in.

Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!As said above, maybe this isn't your sort of content. The game is vast: none of us have to be interested in all of what the game has to offer.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

[Jojo.6140]

@"Jeknar.6184" said:I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

I dont understand why you would consider 150-200 LI a high amount? The max LI you can have is well over 1.4k already afaik, and you can get much more LI per week now that we already have 5 wings. A 150 LI requirement just shows that you are already doing raids for a few months.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that

some

players wanted even

more

challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

[MashMash.1645]

Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

But that was a failure.

Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

(Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

[Turin.6921]

@"Ashantara.8731" said:1. Elitism: you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

Its not a casual game mode. So skill will be required in pug (with imperfect criteria arguably but there are not many alternatives to that). There is no game that this does not happen. Pugs wanting ppl with experience is just that. People want to play with certain kinds if people. Play the way you want and let others play how they want. Toxicity is not a privilege of the elitist only as it seems.

If you want to start doing raids join a guild, a training guild or a training discord community. They are made by great people and you can learn and have a lot of fun. Socializing is basically the solution to your "problem"

2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

Well it is challenging content. Some skill applies. I never seen a game having raids that are not the most challenging part of PvE and i have seen none that does not require some skill. Learning a game is part of a game after all. Also what do you even mean by the "real experience". Learning the encounter and killing them is the experience. I am not sure what you are expecting to see on the other side. But there is nothing more. The beef of the experience is constant learning and optimizing your play. If you do not like that then raids have nothing more to offer to you and you are barking under the wrong tree.

3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

It's just frustrating. Today, I was really in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a full raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

eeh...Exactly because there are save points you can actually jump to a specific boss if you want to. You just search for an opener. How would not having weekly checkpoints help you to go to dhuum faster? I really fail to see the logic there.

Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

Not a single point you have made has do to with design though.

@"Ohoni.6057" said:As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

You do not have a mirror in your house do you?

[Ohoni.6057]

@MashMash.1645 said:This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

But that was a failure.

No, it wasn't. GW2 was and remains one of the most successful MMOs of this generation (especially when not counting those with pre-existing popular IPs). People still flock to it. The failure was in adding raids to the game, trying to make it something it was not and should never have been.

[STIHL.2489]

@MashMash.1645 said:Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

But that was a failure.

Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

(Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

But is it working?

[STIHL.2489]

@Turin.6921 said:You do not have a mirror in your house do you?

Ya you know.. because every week a new topic pops up about how us Open World players are such a Toxic community.

Yup.. we must be the toxic ones.

[Felipe.1807]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"MashMash.1645" said:Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

But that was a failure.

Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

(Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are.

shrug

)

But is it working?

I hardly believe that Raids actually bring much income for Anet, the devs thenselfs allready said that only a small part of the community do Raids...GW2 and raids were never supposed to be a thing, dungeons "failed" cause Anet stopped spending resources on it, till they gutted the rewards from it, even with allmost zero updates, Dungeons were going strong, from try hards etilists to casuals "everyone welcome" runs were done all the time...now its allmost a ghost town, i had to solo most of them on my new characters and ask my guild to join me if I wanted to complete all paths...the only complain people had about dungeons was that they were to "easy"....how something that stayed the same for years aint gonna become easy? Had full legendary gears raiders wipe time after time to the point of rage quit on TA lol, why they were dying? They had forgotten the encouter and didnt knew the machanics anymore...take any of these new players to do AC path 1 and they probably wont pass the Spider Queen lol