Endgame Runes and Sigil are boring

[zealex.9410]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

@Etheri.5406 said:

PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference

is

narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have

this

set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

Wish granted - for condi builds it isn't. Now answer me this: what good does that do?

The gap is closer and multiple classes can compete better, but the classes arent the main part of the discussion the main part are the runes and sigils and how bringing tha gap down would be beneficial.

[Feanor.2358]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

@Etheri.5406 said:

PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference

is

narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have

this

set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

Wish granted - for condi builds it isn't. Now answer me this: what good does that do?

The gap is closer and multiple classes can compete better, but the classes arent the main part of the discussion the main part are the runes and sigils and how bringing tha gap down would be beneficial.

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

[zealex.9410]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

@Etheri.5406 said:

PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference

is

narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have

this

set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

Wish granted - for condi builds it isn't. Now answer me this: what good does that do?

The gap is closer and multiple classes can compete better, but the classes arent the main part of the discussion the main part are the runes and sigils and how bringing tha gap down would be beneficial.

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

Nice thats a good start now cut down the number of runs by half or 2/3 and make more be as close as possible to these 2 ^^

[Cyninja.2954]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

@Etheri.5406 said:

PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference

is

narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have

this

set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

Wish granted - for condi builds it isn't. Now answer me this: what good does that do?

The gap is closer and multiple classes can compete better, but the classes arent the main part of the discussion the main part are the runes and sigils and how bringing tha gap down would be beneficial.

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

This.

A perfect example of 2 rune sets being almost similar in output. Net result? The slightly better one gets used on all builds for PvE.

So what good would having 10 rune sets be which are close (there actually are some sets which are close) when all the majority of the community and builds focuses on only the absolute top. Wasted developer resources.

Runes and Sigils need a rework, but this entire notion that people have that they will be able to chose between multiple setups for pve will never be. That's only spvp or wvw since only there will enough variety from pure damage focus be relevant.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

@Etheri.5406 said:

PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference

is

narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have

this

set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

Wish granted - for condi builds it isn't. Now answer me this: what good does that do?

The gap is closer and multiple classes can compete better, but the classes arent the main part of the discussion the main part are the runes and sigils and how bringing tha gap down would be beneficial.

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

Nice thats a good start now cut down the number of runs by half or 2/3 and make more be as close as possible to these 2 ^^

So just to understand, you want them to:

• shuffle the in game economy for runes and sigils
• spend developer hours on balancing multiple rune and sigil sets
• potentially infuriating players since they once again need to spend gold

Only so once again only the best rune or sigil gets used in the end AGAIN?

Yes, a worthwhile cause.

[TexZero.7910]

@Cyninja.2954 said:This.

A perfect example of 2 rune sets being almost similar in output. Net result? The slightly better one gets used on all builds for PvE.

So what good would having 10 rune sets be which are close (there actually are some sets which are close) when all the majority of the community and builds focuses on only the absolute top. Wasted developer resources.

Runes and Sigils need a rework, but this entire notion that people have that they will be able to chose between multiple setups for pve will never be. That's only spvp or wvw since only there will enough variety from pure damage focus be relevant.

The fact that the are so similar is part of the problem (for PvE). I know it sounds contradictory because we need choice but we also need diversity however, right now flat damage modifiers are the go to 6th slot bonus for DPS increases and that's so generic that it doesnt fit the themes of those runes are meant to portray.

Ideally, they can fix this by moving the design to something that's more specialized/thematic rather than just slapping % modifiers that don't really add anything to gameplay and just lead to a bland illusion of choice instead of enhancing a particular playstyle or build type.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This.

A perfect example of 2 rune sets being almost similar in output. Net result? The slightly better one gets used on all builds for PvE.

So what good would having 10 rune sets be which are close (there actually are some sets which are close) when all the majority of the community and builds focuses on only the absolute top. Wasted developer resources.

Runes and Sigils need a rework, but this entire notion that people have that they will be able to chose between multiple setups for pve will never be. That's only spvp or wvw since only there will enough variety from pure damage focus be relevant.

The fact that the are so similar is part of the problem (for PvE). I know it sounds contradictory but right now flat damage modifiers are the go to 6th slot bonus for DPS increases and that's so generic that it doesnt fit the themes of those runes are meant to portray.

Ideally, they can fix this by moving the design to something that's more specialized/thematic rather than just slapping % modifiers that don't really add anything to gameplay and just lead to a bland illusion of choice instead of enhancing a particular playstyle or build type.

True, but that would only solve part of the issue. For pve the best damage option will generally win.

I agree that runes and sigils need a rework, I just think people need to realize what is and will be possible with such a heavy pve dps focused game design.

[TexZero.7910]

@Cyninja.2954 said:I agree that runes and sigils need a rework, I just think people need to realize what is and will be possible with such a heavy pve dps focused game design.

I agree that DPS right now is the go to choice and that there will always be an optimal rune. I just think there's a lot that could be done to fix runes/sigils from a design standpoint. Additionally, i think that Anet could do more from just an encounter design standpoint to stem the tides of dps focused PvE but that's another topic entirely.

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This.

A perfect example of 2 rune sets being almost similar in output. Net result? The slightly better one gets used on all builds for PvE.

So what good would having 10 rune sets be which are close (there actually are some sets which are close) when all the majority of the community and builds focuses on only the absolute top. Wasted developer resources.

Runes and Sigils need a rework, but this entire notion that people have that they will be able to chose between multiple setups for pve will never be. That's only spvp or wvw since only there will enough variety from pure damage focus be relevant.

The fact that the are so similar is part of the problem (for PvE). I know it sounds contradictory but right now flat damage modifiers are the go to 6th slot bonus for DPS increases and that's so generic that it doesnt fit the themes of those runes are meant to portray.

Ideally, they can fix this by moving the design to something that's more specialized/thematic rather than just slapping % modifiers that don't really add anything to gameplay and just lead to a bland illusion of choice instead of enhancing a particular playstyle or build type.

True, but that would only solve part of the issue. For pve the best damage option will generally win.

I agree that runes and sigils need a rework, I just think people need to realize what is and will be possible with such a heavy pve dps focused game design.

The idea of ppl using the best option is normal and aplies to to everything. Isnt by your stance the same to say that why bother balancing diff weapons for diff classes since ppl will gnerally use the best and even take it to classes themselves. Why balance the different classes if the players will always run the best? We both know (i hope) that the answer is gameplay. I agree with Tex that numerically similar isnt whats really needed in the grand scheme of things i feel that numerical balance would be a bandaid, gameplay maters above all else.

Thats why i think that they should rework and maybe cut down on the runes available to have more room to develope the remaining ones and create interesting gameplay for them. Obv it wouldnt be easy or take few resources but it will enrich gameplay for the majority who frankly as we've said multiple times dont care about minmaxing but would still benefit from them if they ever want to get into the endgame. The better balanced they are the more diff fun gimmicks and playstyles we could see in raids and cms and honestly raids arent mythic wow. If the choices are really close ppl wont mind (as much) what ppl chooses to run in the runes sigils as long as it makes sense.

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This.

A perfect example of 2 rune sets being almost similar in output. Net result? The slightly better one gets used on all builds for PvE.

So what good would having 10 rune sets be which are close (there actually are some sets which are close) when all the majority of the community and builds focuses on only the absolute top. Wasted developer resources.

Runes and Sigils need a rework, but this entire notion that people have that they will be able to chose between multiple setups for pve will never be. That's only spvp or wvw since only there will enough variety from pure damage focus be relevant.

The fact that the are so similar is part of the problem (for PvE). I know it sounds contradictory but right now flat damage modifiers are the go to 6th slot bonus for DPS increases and that's so generic that it doesnt fit the themes of those runes are meant to portray.

Ideally, they can fix this by moving the design to something that's more specialized/thematic rather than just slapping % modifiers that don't really add anything to gameplay and just lead to a bland illusion of choice instead of enhancing a particular playstyle or build type.

True, but that would only solve part of the issue. For pve the best damage option will generally win.

I agree that runes and sigils need a rework, I just think people need to realize what is and will be possible with such a heavy pve dps focused game design.

The idea of ppl using the best option is normal and aplies to to everything. Isnt by your stance the same to say that why bother balancing diff weapons for diff classes since ppl will gnerally use the best and even take it to classes themselves. Why balance the different classes if the players will always run the best? We both know (i hope) that the answer is gameplay. I agree with Tex that numerically similar isnt whats really needed in the grand scheme of things i feel that numerical balance would be a bandaid, gameplay maters above all else.

Weapons are balanced against each other. Unfortunately almost no class has multiple weapon sets for the same damage type, and if they do, the best setup gets used. So there is already exactly that happening.

Classes are being used by best in slot. Only the leeway here is so high and the additional effort to get people to only run the ideal class is by far greater than just slapping on a different rune/sigil set.

Runes and Sigils are basically perfect meta groups. They will perform at 100% of their ability all the time, thus there is no reason to go for 2nd or 3rd in slot.

@zealex.9410 said:

Thats why i think that they should rework and maybe cut down on the runes available to have more room to develope the remaining ones and create interesting gameplay for them. Obv it wouldnt be easy or take few resources but it will enrich gameplay for the majority who frankly as we've said multiple times dont care about minmaxing but would still benefit from them if they ever want to get into the endgame. The better balanced they are the more diff fun gimmicks and playstyles we could see in raids and cms and honestly raids arent mythic wow. If the choices are really close ppl wont mind (as much) what ppl chooses to run in the runes sigils as long as it makes sense.

Cutting down on runes affects how often valuable runes become available. If you reduce the pool down from 92 runes to say 30, you automatically increase the chance to get optimal runes by 300% since your desired rune is 1 out of 30 now. Unless they manipulate drop rates which would have to get adjusted on a constant basis when balance happens, that is unrealistic.

Any change to the rune and sigil system would have to be done in a way that the core game economy aspects remain in place AND èven then damage would beat all other options in pve for dps classes.

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This.

A perfect example of 2 rune sets being almost similar in output. Net result? The slightly better one gets used on all builds for PvE.

So what good would having 10 rune sets be which are close (there actually are some sets which are close) when all the majority of the community and builds focuses on only the absolute top. Wasted developer resources.

Runes and Sigils need a rework, but this entire notion that people have that they will be able to chose between multiple setups for pve will never be. That's only spvp or wvw since only there will enough variety from pure damage focus be relevant.

The fact that the are so similar is part of the problem (for PvE). I know it sounds contradictory but right now flat damage modifiers are the go to 6th slot bonus for DPS increases and that's so generic that it doesnt fit the themes of those runes are meant to portray.

Ideally, they can fix this by moving the design to something that's more specialized/thematic rather than just slapping % modifiers that don't really add anything to gameplay and just lead to a bland illusion of choice instead of enhancing a particular playstyle or build type.

True, but that would only solve part of the issue. For pve the best damage option will generally win.

I agree that runes and sigils need a rework, I just think people need to realize what is and will be possible with such a heavy pve dps focused game design.

The idea of ppl using the best option is normal and aplies to to everything. Isnt by your stance the same to say that why bother balancing diff weapons for diff classes since ppl will gnerally use the best and even take it to classes themselves. Why balance the different classes if the players will always run the best? We both know (i hope) that the answer is gameplay. I agree with Tex that numerically similar isnt whats really needed in the grand scheme of things i feel that numerical balance would be a bandaid, gameplay maters above all else.

Weapons are balanced against each other. Unfortunately almost no class has multiple weapon sets for the same damage type, and if they do, the best setup gets used. So there is already exactly that happening.

I not argueing that, im argueing if its already happening why should they ever bother balancing them? Ppl will just use the next best option.

Classes are being used by best in slot. Only the leeway here is so high and the additional effort to get people to only run the ideal class is by far greater than just slapping on a different rune/sigil set.

Runes and Sigils are basically perfect meta groups. They will perform at 100% of their ability all the time, thus there is no reason to go for 2nd or 3rd in slot.

@zealex.9410 said:

Thats why i think that they should rework and maybe cut down on the runes available to have more room to develope the remaining ones and create interesting gameplay for them. Obv it wouldnt be easy or take few resources but it will enrich gameplay for the majority who frankly as we've said multiple times dont care about minmaxing but would still benefit from them if they ever want to get into the endgame. The better balanced they are the more diff fun gimmicks and playstyles we could see in raids and cms and honestly raids arent mythic wow. If the choices are really close ppl wont mind (as much) what ppl chooses to run in the runes sigils as long as it makes sense.

Cutting down on runes affects how often valuable runes become available. If you reduce the pool down from 92 runes to say 30, you automatically increase the chance to get optimal runes by 300% since your desired rune is 1 out of 30 now. Unless they manipulate drop rates which would have to get adjusted on a constant basis when balance happens, that is unrealistic.

Any change to the rune and sigil system would have to be done in a way that the core game economy aspects remain in place AND èven then damage would beat all other options in pve for dps classes.

I dont see armors being abjusted when balance happens. Drop rates can remain as they are and it wont matter, if a rune is that usefull ppl will get it.

As for cutting down on the runes makes the easier to aquire, i agree the rate which they exist in droped gear would need abjusting but hey this is part of reworking them.

They can try and make the impact in the pve economy as low as possible but then again why not use the opportunity to shape the economy more into the state they want it? Basically what they did with the zephyrite chest and it was fine.

Every major expansion has affected greatly the economy, cant see why playing around with runes and sigils would be worse.

[Feanor.2358]

Forget the economic impact. Adding more diverse options will be a lot harder to balance. Note the damage modifiers in use. Let's be real - 5-10% damage bonus is incredibly small. What fun option you can have which ends up in the same power ballpark? And even if you do, what do you accomplish? Players will still pick the single best one and use that.

The only diversity they can offer in this system is different stat combinations and conditional damage bonuses which make specific runes more suited for specific builds. Which is basically what the game already has.

[Tails.9372]

I'd like them to redo the rune of vampirism to actually include a % of damage (on hit) dealed tured into HP effect. It's pretty much useless as it is rn.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tails.9372 said:I'd like them to redo the rune of vampirism to actually include a % of damage (on hit) dealed tured into HP effect. It's pretty much useless as it is rn.

That would be broken AF in group play. Don't get me wrong, I love life leech effects scaling with your damage in games. It would just be too strong there. And at the same time, next to useless in solo.

[zealex.9410]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tails.9372 said:I'd like them to redo the rune of vampirism to actually include a % of damage (on hit) dealed tured into HP effect. It's pretty much useless as it is rn.

That would be broken AF in group play. Don't get me wrong, I love life leech effects scaling with your damage in games. It would just be too strong there. And at the same time, next to useless in solo.

Kinda disagree. In group play are getting healing by the group anyways In solo play where healing is limited to your personal healing this would be more useful.

[Feanor.2358]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tails.9372 said:I'd like them to redo the rune of vampirism to actually include a % of damage (on hit) dealed tured into HP effect. It's pretty much useless as it is rn.

That would be broken AF in group play. Don't get me wrong, I love life leech effects scaling with your damage in games. It would just be too strong there. And at the same time, next to useless in solo.

Kinda disagree. In group play are getting healing by the group anyways In solo play where healing is limited to your personal healing this would be more useful.

But why would you bring dedicated healer? Consider replacing Force sigil on 5-6 dps slots with a life leech one and adding another dps. You'll end up with higher group dps.

[zealex.9410]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tails.9372 said:I'd like them to redo the rune of vampirism to actually include a % of damage (on hit) dealed tured into HP effect. It's pretty much useless as it is rn.

That would be broken AF in group play. Don't get me wrong, I love life leech effects scaling with your damage in games. It would just be too strong there. And at the same time, next to useless in solo.

Kinda disagree. In group play are getting healing by the group anyways In solo play where healing is limited to your personal healing this would be more useful.

But why would you bring dedicated healer? Consider replacing Force sigil on 5-6 dps slots with a life leech one and adding another dps. You'll end up with higher group dps.

I dont mean a dedicated healer i mean a druid and a mesmer (if mesmers still make use of the regen trait) just being there will puke more than enough healing esp when its needed.

Fully dedicated healers are only useful during prog.

[Feanor.2358]

What do you need the druid for? Take Slb for spirits. Might won't be an issue, because mesmer. Worst case, renegade can add some.

[Etheri.5406]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Nothing is inherently broken. You have to consider its purpose and application. In PvE Concentration sigil is extremely niche. Is it powerful? Yes. But it is still extremely niche.

Let's carefully "ignore" that WvW is stuck to PvE gear to pretend that's not even an issue; and just base ourselves off "facts".It's a FACT that concentration sigil gives 495 stats in concentration for 7 seconds with 9s ICD on weapon swap. It's a FACT that this makes it desired on pretty much every buff-heavy support build in the game; because no other sigil comes close to that value. Even if concentration is far less valuable than say power.

You can say it's niche because the only "real" boon builds that exist are ... chrono and druid due to how the meta has been ever since HoT; but that hardly makes it more "balanced". That just shows that balance as a whole in this game is a joke.

By "niche" I mean "only used by dedicated support builds". It's a niche. And no, Power isn't even remotely as valuable as Concentration in a dedicated support build. The sigil isn't a flat stat bonus. Isn't this what you wanted in the first place? Of course by making it conditional (and reliant on a hidden ICD to boot) it has to be more powerful to offset that drawback.

@Etheri.5406 said:

PvP is a very different environment. What's fine for PvP isn't necessarily fine in PvE and vice versa. And regardless of any "balance" you make, the meta will still select the single best setup for each build and go with it. And if you just narrow the differences, then it becomes an irrelevant choice. See Berserker vs Renegade runes.

I agree, but the differences aren't narrow and pretending sigils in PvE are balanced is rather questionable. Were divinity runes not updated because of the clear powercreep? ;)

Divinity runes are useless in PvE. But more to the point, what balance do you expect? Again, there will always be a single best pick for any given purpose. And even when the difference

is

narrow, like in the example I gave, what exactly does that change? If you're making a new build, you'd still want the BiS one. If you already have the suboptimal, you can stick with it if you don't mind taking a marginal loss. Yay! Much build, so diversity.

The issue with Leadership runes is they don't have an alternative. But had they had one, it would be just the same. The important thing isn't to introduce a different set which creates some marginal, irrelevant choice. The important thing is you have

this

set which lets you build around it. And the resulting builds are vastly different than those using either Berserker or Renegade ones.

Id like if the difference between the best and the second best wasnt like pre nerf diff between Weaver and the rest of the dps.

Wish granted - for condi builds it isn't. Now answer me this: what good does that do?

The gap is closer and multiple classes can compete better, but the classes arent the main part of the discussion the main part are the runes and sigils and how bringing tha gap down would be beneficial.

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

And in each situation, one or the other is better for "optimization" but players have a REAL CHOICE of being "hybrid" or more "condi focussed". It's an ACTUAL CHOICE and BOTH can be used.

Unlike "forgeman vs durability" where forgeman isn't a choice. It could be deleted from the game and it'd have no impact. Inbalanced choices are the same as no choices; they only exist to confuse players who don't know better.

It's clear players in GW2 enjoy their choices, flavor and being able to run what they like. Except where half those options are so vastly underpowered - in all situations - that they're just handicapping themselves. How does that help anyone?

For the high end we don't have (many) "real" choices because one option dominates everything.For the low end we get huge amounts of players who want choices / run what they wish for flavor but lose so much effectiveness over it that they aren't welcome anywhere.In between, these options are never real options. They could be removed from the game completely without any impact on the meta. And if that goes for all X builds, why are runes even a thing? I'd rather have more things like renegade vs berserker or scholar vs strength than forgeman vs durability or leadership vs rebirth.

And you said concentration is better than power on buff builds, I almost agree. What about "sigil of greater power : grants 495 power for 7 seconds on weapon swap". Would this be balanced for the game? Because that's concentration sigil :trollface:

[Feanor.2358]

@"Etheri.5406" said:

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

And in each situation, one or the other is better for "optimization" but players have a REAL CHOICE of being "hybrid" or more "condi focussed". It's an ACTUAL CHOICE and BOTH can be used.

Both can be used, true. But it is not an actual choice, because it doesn't change anything. You're still a condi build. You still get a direct damage oriented stat. The resulting difference in performance is minuscule. That's precisely why they both can be used - because it doesn't matter, not because they offer a choice.

@"Etheri.5406" said:And you said concentration is better than power on buff builds, I almost agree. What about "sigil of greater power : grants 495 power for 7 seconds on weapon swap". Would this be balanced for the game? Because that's concentration sigil :trollface:

The standard power weaver build has 3804 power at 25 might. Under perfect uptime, this sigil would add 385 (495 * 7 / 9) extra power, an increase of just a hair more than 10%. A bit too strong, but not really as dramatic difference as you portray it to be. It would be undoubtedly the best direct damage sigil to slot, but it wouldn't be game-braking.

[Etheri.5406]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

And in each situation, one or the other is better for "optimization" but players have a REAL CHOICE of being "hybrid" or more "condi focussed". It's an ACTUAL CHOICE and BOTH can be used.

Both can be used, true. But it is not an actual choice, because it doesn't change anything. You're still a condi build. You still get a direct damage oriented stat. The resulting difference in performance is minuscule. That's precisely why they both can be used - because it doesn't matter, not because they offer a choice.

Ofcourse there's a choice. Full condi builds still favor renegade. Builds with high power clearly favor berserker. Both are used for similar style condi builds which don't need duration, and nothing else. The "meta" rune for WvW changed between both as scourge went from pure condi to hybrid, but nobody is "forced" to change their armor. Real choices, with one being the best but alternatives not being awful. Both having their own flavor.

I agree the "flavor" is fairly small for this example, but I'd rather have it like this than without flavor. And for runes with unique effects, those effects are often enough to make us decide between them. I'd rather have leadership chosen for converting condies to boons on elite than because it gives insane amounts of concentration without alternatives. What's bad about letting buff builds decide if they want longer buffs with DPS, longer buffs with utility or something else entirely? Rather than just being forced into one option because the numbers are off, or plain not caring about minmax / optimization.

It's not a real choice if the difference on some builds really is almost zero. But on many hybrid builds, the difference isn't because they actually do power damage i.e. wvw. And no matter what, one will always be "better" for a certain situation no matter how small the difference.

@"Etheri.5406" said:And you said concentration is better than power on buff builds, I almost agree. What about "sigil of greater power : grants 495 power for 7 seconds on weapon swap". Would this be balanced for the game? Because that's concentration sigil :trollface:

The standard power weaver build has 3804 power at 25 might. Under perfect uptime, this sigil would add 385 (495 * 7 / 9) extra power, an increase of just a hair more than 10%. A bit too strong, but not really as dramatic difference as you portray it to be. It would be undoubtedly the best direct damage sigil to slot, but it wouldn't be game-braking.

You think a 10% increase in power on FULLY BUFFED WEAVER, a build which has more power than almost any alternatives is fair? What about other classes, with less base power and thus larger increases? What about hybrid or tankier builds where 500 power is easily a 20% to 30% increase? What about solo players who don't run around with full buffs?

I mean, fully buffed weaver getting a sigil TWICE as strong as force - staple on any power build - is "not as OP as I make it out to be"... Yet it's even better in all other situations. It competes with air, which is what... a 3% dps increase at best?

I'm pretty sure holo and daredevil have less power... So they get an even larger increase. Any kind of "tankier" build or hybrid build would also see an even larger increase. Hell, I think it's so strong you'd even see some viper "condi" builds run it over condi sigils.

Do you genuinely believe it would be balanced? Like... really? For many WvW builds it'd be a 15-20% increase in spike damage... Pretty sure every power spec ingame would be running it...

[Feanor.2358]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

And in each situation, one or the other is better for "optimization" but players have a REAL CHOICE of being "hybrid" or more "condi focussed". It's an ACTUAL CHOICE and BOTH can be used.

Both can be used, true. But it is not an actual choice, because it doesn't change anything. You're still a condi build. You still get a direct damage oriented stat. The resulting difference in performance is minuscule. That's precisely why they both can be used - because it doesn't matter, not because they offer a choice.

Ofcourse there's a choice. Full condi builds still favor renegade. Builds with high power clearly favor berserker. Both are used for similar style condi builds which don't need duration, and nothing else. The "meta" rune for WvW changed between both as scourge went from pure condi to hybrid, but nobody is "forced" to change their armor. Real choices, with one being the best but alternatives not being awful. Both having their own flavor.

Much flavor. Condi damage with direct damage minor or condi damage with direct damage minor. Such wow.

@Etheri.5406 said:

The standard power weaver build has 3804 power at 25 might. Under perfect uptime, this sigil would add 385 (495 * 7 / 9) extra power, an increase of just a hair more than 10%. A bit too strong, but not really as dramatic difference as you portray it to be. It would be undoubtedly the best direct damage sigil to slot, but it wouldn't be game-braking.

You think a 10% increase in power on FULLY BUFFED WEAVER, a build which has more power than almost any alternatives is fair? What about other classes, with less base power and thus larger increases? What about hybrid or tankier builds where 500 power is easily a 20% to 30% increase? What about solo players who don't run around with full buffs?

It's not a 10% increase. It's a 5% increase over Force. Or maybe you replace Air, which if I remember correctly is about 3% damage increase by itself, netting you a 7% increase by using your hypothetical sigil over Air. You know what else is a 7% damage increase? Fractal God/Goddess. I guess it is game-braking as well.

Oh, and by the way, all meta power builds have about that much power. Pretty much all of them use full berserker with Scholar runes.

[Etheri.5406]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

No, the runes. Berserker and Renegade are very very close. So what?

And in each situation, one or the other is better for "optimization" but players have a REAL CHOICE of being "hybrid" or more "condi focussed". It's an ACTUAL CHOICE and BOTH can be used.

Both can be used, true. But it is not an actual choice, because it doesn't change anything. You're still a condi build. You still get a direct damage oriented stat. The resulting difference in performance is minuscule. That's precisely why they both can be used - because it doesn't matter, not because they offer a choice.

Ofcourse there's a choice. Full condi builds still favor renegade. Builds with high power clearly favor berserker. Both are used for similar style condi builds which don't need duration, and nothing else. The "meta" rune for WvW changed between both as scourge went from pure condi to hybrid, but nobody is "forced" to change their armor. Real choices, with one being the best but alternatives not being awful. Both having their own flavor.

Much flavor. Condi damage with direct damage minor or condi damage with direct damage minor. Such wow.

@Etheri.5406 said:

The standard power weaver build has 3804 power at 25 might. Under perfect uptime, this sigil would add 385 (495 * 7 / 9) extra power, an increase of just a hair more than 10%. A bit too strong, but not really as dramatic difference as you portray it to be. It would be undoubtedly the best direct damage sigil to slot, but it wouldn't be game-braking.

You think a 10% increase in power on FULLY BUFFED WEAVER, a build which has more power than almost any alternatives is fair? What about other classes, with less base power and thus larger increases? What about hybrid or tankier builds where 500 power is easily a 20% to 30% increase? What about solo players who don't run around with full buffs?

It's not a 10% increase. It's a 5% increase over Force. Or maybe you replace Air, which if I remember correctly is about 3% damage increase by itself, netting you a 7% increase by using your hypothetical sigil over Air. You know what else is a 7% damage increase? Fractal God/Goddess. I guess it is game-braking as well.

Lets pretend damage increases are additive for easier calculations. For small numbers it's a close enough approximiation.

It's a 10% increase over baseline. Literally what you stated.That makes it twice as strong as force, or a 100% increase relative to force or abit under 5% as additional multiplicative modifier.More than three times as strong as air, or a 200% increase relative to air sigil or abit under 7% as additional multiplicative modifier.

I'd say this is gamebreaking.Keep in mind that again, high power builds are the BEST CASE scenario. Fine for your fully buffed raid situations yet absolutely bonkers for the rest of the content in the game.

Say a 2500 power build gets... over 15%. That's more than 3 times as strong as force, 5 times as strong as air. The current "meta" choices.What does this have to do with non-comparable bonusses such as fractal god which don't even work in other content? No idea.

A build with 2000 power? Just under 20%. Still balanced for a single sigil to boost damage of tanky hybrid builds by this much? To give SO MUCH MORE stats than other alternatives?

Again, balance compares OPTIONS BETWEEN EACHOTHER. It doesn't look at... "yeah but what about this other damage bonus that exists".

Oh, and by the way, all meta power builds have about that much power. Pretty much all of them use full berserker with Scholar runes.

Weaver gets power from being in fire through fire and weaver traits. I don't seem to recall many other powerDPS using these. Instead most have precision increases.

I guess you're really trying to say that a sigil that increases overall damage of power builds by at least 10% is balanced. Even if that sigil is just sigil of concentration with power. Even if the sigil that it'd replace (air) is currently... at least 3 times worse.

[Feanor.2358]

It doesn't matter how much worse the second best is. It only matters how much more effective power you gain. Single-digit percent. That's minuscule. Yes, it's not balanced. But no, it's not game-braking either. Game braking was the thief CD bug which allowed dps in the millions.

Also, again, 7% is what you gain from Fractal God/Goddess. Game braking?

Also, you have currently available in game more powerful (albeit limited in a way) options. I have in my inventory a weapon with +10%/+7% Night sigils slotted. That's strictly superior to your "power on weapon swap" + force setup. Yes, it only works in select instances. But it works 100% of the time in them. Game braking?

[TexZero.7910]

@"Feanor.2358" said:It doesn't matter how much worse the second best is. It only matters how much more effective power you gain. Single-digit percent. That's minuscule. Yes, it's not balanced. But no, it's not game-braking either. Game braking was the thief CD bug which allowed dps in the millions.

Also, again, 7% is what you gain from Fractal God/Goddess. Game braking?

Also, you have currently available in game more powerful (albeit limited in a way) options. I have in my inventory a weapon with +10%/+7% Night sigils slotted. That's strictly superior to your "power on weapon swap" + force setup. Yes, it only works in select instances. But it works 100% of the time in them. Game braking?

Depends on who you ask.

There's a reason they are disabled in raids, they didnt want them to become meta defining and force people to carry 8 clones of weapons just for a stat boost. One could apply the same blanket logic to these stat boost as well, they are too defining though the opposite is happening they restrict people to having 1 set which is equally as unhealthy for not just gameplay but for the games economy.

[Etheri.5406]

@"Feanor.2358" said:It doesn't matter how much worse the second best is. It only matters how much more effective power you gain. Single-digit percent. That's minuscule. Yes, it's not balanced. But no, it's not game-braking either. Game braking was the thief CD bug which allowed dps in the millions.

Also, again, 7% is what you gain from Fractal God/Goddess. Game braking?

Also, you have currently available in game more powerful (albeit limited in a way) options. I have in my inventory a weapon with +10%/+7% Night sigils slotted. That's strictly superior to your "power on weapon swap" + force setup. Yes, it only works in select instances. But it works 100% of the time in them. Game braking?

Not gamebreaking just completely inbalanced because "game not broken unless actually unplayable". Yeah fine by me. Fun concepts of balance you got there. Took all these posts to admit it's not balanced compared to alternatives at all.

It's not strictly superior. 10% blanket increase against one type is far less OP than 495 power for 7/9 on weapon swap in my book. But appearantly balance only applies to PVE raw DPS builds.